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Home electrical monitoring for more complicated systems

Jeff F

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Jun 26, 2010
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74
Location
Kennett Square, PA
Looking at setting up a new (to me) house with electrical monitoring. The Emporia Vue system looks nice, but it is limited to to 2x 200A sensors and 16x 50A sensors.

The house currently has 200A service coming in, with 2x 100A subs going out to a garage and barn, so this system would have no way to monitor the 100A subs. I could add a second system to the barn (garage use is minimal), but in the barn there is a 60A circuit that powers the aux heat for a geothermal system, which is beyond the capacity of the 50A sensors (I don't know for sure what it actually pulls).

Is there a more "industrial' system that is more flexible with inputs, but still has the reporting and analysis tools that the home type systems have?
 
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scooterbum46

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South Central Michigan / ex Gulf Coast Florida
Not pushing Emporia as a cureall, but you can "stack" Vues and it will combine the output. I am in the process of putting a second Vue on my panel to cover the remaining 3 circuits plus I'll get Mains type current probes for my generator input (I backfeed the whole panel through a 50 amp breaker). I'll post the results when I'm done. I still feel for what I get in information, the total cost makes it one heck of a deal..
 

Firebrick43

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May 12, 2015
Messages
13,992
Location
West central Indiana
Looking at setting up a new (to me) house with electrical monitoring. The Emporia Vue system looks nice, but it is limited to to 2x 200A sensors and 16x 50A sensors.

The house currently has 200A service coming in, with 2x 100A subs going out to a garage and barn, so this system would have no way to monitor the 100A subs. I could add a second system to the barn (garage use is minimal), but in the barn there is a 60A circuit that powers the aux heat for a geothermal system, which is beyond the capacity of the 50A sensors (I don't know for sure what it actually pulls).

Is there a more "industrial' system that is more flexible with inputs, but still has the reporting and analysis tools that the home type systems have?
The Emporia Vue app will combine two separate systems as if its one. Still slightly cheaper than the iotawatt shown above and still much cheaper and simpler than an industrial system. The few that I was involved in installing in the plants was very complicated in the software side not to mention the networking side as well.
 

dave*99

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May 5, 2009
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Location
Coastal NJ
Looking at setting up a new (to me) house with electrical monitoring. The Emporia Vue system looks nice, but it is limited to to 2x 200A sensors and 16x 50A sensors.

The house currently has 200A service coming in, with 2x 100A subs going out to a garage and barn, so this system would have no way to monitor the 100A subs. I could add a second system to the barn (garage use is minimal), but in the barn there is a 60A circuit that powers the aux heat for a geothermal system, which is beyond the capacity of the 50A sensors (I don't know for sure what it actually pulls).

Is there a more "industrial' system that is more flexible with inputs, but still has the reporting and analysis tools that the home type systems have?
I am also looking at installing Vue. I initially had the same concern. I have 200A service, a 120A sub and a 100A sub. I think I don’t need to monitor the subs as whole units. I need to put a Vue on each of them. I need info on all or some of the branch circuits in the subs. As noted in a prior post #3
 
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PCustoms

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Jul 23, 2011
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VT
Looking at setting up a new (to me) house with electrical monitoring. The Emporia Vue system looks nice, but it is limited to to 2x 200A sensors and 16x 50A sensors.

The house currently has 200A service coming in, with 2x 100A subs going out to a garage and barn, so this system would have no way to monitor the 100A subs. I could add a second system to the barn (garage use is minimal), but in the barn there is a 60A circuit that powers the aux heat for a geothermal system, which is beyond the capacity of the 50A sensors (I don't know for sure what it actually pulls).

I'm confused...

Are you trying to monitor the sun as a whole, or the individual circuits?
 

ipgenie

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Idaho
I have three Vues stacked, one at the main that includes some shop circuits, one on the 200A sub going to my solar and another on the 200A sub in my house.

You can dedicate a whole Vue to your 60A circuit if you need to but I'd throw a clamp meter on it and see if it really draws that much. I bet a 50a sensor would be enough if the wire size isn't too big. The Vue without all of the extra CT sensors is cheaper than the whole kit.

You can even nest their little smart plugs under a Vue and include that detail in the web interface.
 

BillK

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Beautiful Southern Maryland
I am just curious why you would want something like this ? Would you actually change something that you are doing because of the results from the system ? Do you suspect somebody is stealing power somehow ? I guess I just don't understand the need for something like this in a typical residential setting.
 
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Jeff F

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Jun 26, 2010
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Kennett Square, PA
I'm confused...

Are you trying to monitor the sun as a whole, or the individual circuits?
My initial plan was to monitor the sub as a whole, but that doesn’t seem possible with a single system. So then I considered an entire separate system for the sub, and if I have that I might as well monitor the branch circuits… but then I have a 60A circuit that is too big to monitor (in theory). I can work around these limitations, but seemed like it was worth looking into alternatives that were more flexible.
 

PCustoms

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My initial plan was to monitor the sub as a whole, but that doesn’t seem possible with a single system. So then I considered an entire separate system for the sub, and if I have that I might as well monitor the branch circuits… but then I have a 60A circuit that is too big to monitor (in theory). I can work around these limitations, but seemed like it was worth looking into alternatives that were more flexible.

Can you snap a pic of your main panel and mark what you want to monitor?

I don't see why putting a 200a sensor on each sub feed and then using the 16 remaining sensors for branch circuits doesn't meet your plan.
 
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Jeff F

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Jun 26, 2010
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Location
Kennett Square, PA
I am just curious why you would want something like this ? Would you actually change something that you are doing because of the results from the system ? Do you suspect somebody is stealing power somehow ? I guess I just don't understand the need for something like this in a typical residential setting.
I wouldn’t call it a typical residential setting, and the information would be used for deciding on future changes.

House is a 1890s farmhouse, about 2500ft. It has a 200A service, is heated and cooled with a heat pump and has oil aux. Electric hot water, electric dryer, electric induction stove.

Barn is a 100A sub. 36x72, 2 floors, insulated, heated and cooled with geothermal and electric backup. It had a conduit running to it with enough space to add another 100A.

Garage is an older 18x40 with a 100 sub. It will be knocked down and replaced, and the new building will be heated.

We would like to get away from the oil heat in the house. Options would be a low-temp heat pump (geothermal or air), switching to electric backup, or switching to propane backup. New garage could potentially get geothermal as there is some capacity in the loops, but would need aux that could be electric or propane. Water heater needs to be replaced and dryer needs to be purchased. These could be standard electric, heat pump, or propane. Barn needs to have capacity for lift, welder, etc.

Having this monitoring will allow me to see what current usage is, and decide what direction to go with future systems and what electrical system upgrades may be needed.
 
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Jeff F

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Jun 26, 2010
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Location
Kennett Square, PA
Can you snap a pic of your main panel and mark what you want to monitor?

I don't see why putting a 200a sensor on each sub feed and then using the 16 remaining sensors for branch circuits doesn't meet your plan.
Subs are 220, so each requires 2. I still want to monitor my entire system usage, as we don’t have a “smart” meter that allows me to monitor that.
 

mike93lx

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Richmond, VA
I am just curious why you would want something like this ? Would you actually change something that you are doing because of the results from the system ? Do you suspect somebody is stealing power somehow ? I guess I just don't understand the need for something like this in a typical residential setting.
I have a Vue system as well. It's been helpful understanding run time and draw on several circuits for sizing a generator and seeing run time on things like my pool heater.

Plus its been interesting seeing the data. Doesn't change my life, but I like having it
 

jblnut

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In the Middle of MN
I have had an Emporia Vue running here for close to 4yrs and have zero complaints. I have two in the shop panel and have them “stacked” in the software so they show up as one system. Even if they can’t be perfectly combined you will be able to see the info you’re after. No need to spend a small fortune looking for a solution that already exists.

Quick little screenshot from the first screen you see what you log in.
IMG_6012.png
 
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svtride

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Sep 6, 2009
Messages
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I’ve used this system to monitor all the individual circuits within my home and shop for the past 13 years..I installed it after right after I got a grid tied solar system installed. Maybe overkill.
https://www.brultech.com/greeneye/
I can drill down into each circuit further. It’s been robust and can be expanded
GRAB30.jpg
 

PCustoms

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VT
Subs are 220, so each requires 2. I

Yeah, I literally wasn't putting 2 and 2 together....

Got it now.

That said, I think a load calculation will serve your purposes better then all the load monitoring
 

ipgenie

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Location
Idaho
For the sub with the 60A circuit, if you put a vue on the main going into the sub and the 50A sensors on every other circuit in that sub except for the 60A circuit, Emporia will show the use of that unmonitored circuit as the balance. Probably good enough for a heating circuit.
 

Overboost44

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Apr 29, 2020
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82
Location
MD
Can you not just clamp an ammeter on the 200A (or the subs) and run the large draws at one time to do a load calc? Do need one of these systems or an electrician to do that? True that would be a one time measurement.
 

pembol

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Feb 13, 2014
Messages
268
I have two 200A panels with a Emporia Vue on each, and two Emporia EV chargers. You can now combine the the 200A panels together as well as nesting sub panels. It works very well. For my garage sub panel I am only measuring the feed off one of the main panels, but it only has 6 circuits so I am OK with that.

As to why - having insight into your electrical usage is both interesting (I am a nerd) but can also help you save energy/reduce your bill. It was really eye opening to me to see how much of a difference the re-circulator pump on my water heater made - turning it on almost doubles the energy usage, so we put it on a smart switch with a timer so it only runs about 20% of the time. I also now have great info on how much energy my garage minisplit actually uses (not much).
 
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Jeff F

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Jun 26, 2010
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Kennett Square, PA
Yeah, I literally wasn't putting 2 and 2 together....

Got it now.

That said, I think a load calculation will serve your purposes better then all the load monitoring
Load calculation won't tell me things like how often my heat pump and aux oil heat are running to evaluate alternate options (electric aux, low temp heat pump, propane aux, geothermal)
 

svtride

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Messages
199
Load calculation won't tell me things like how often my heat pump and aux oil heat are running to evaluate alternate options (electric aux, low temp heat pump, propane aux, geothermal)
This is the level of detail (furnace circuit) I get from the monitoring system I linked earlier in this thread. I can retrieve this level of information for each circuit in my house. Seems this is what you are looking for???
POWER
GRAB28.jpg
Consumption
GRAB29.jpg
 

scooterbum46

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Messages
834
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South Central Michigan / ex Gulf Coast Florida
I’ve used this system to monitor all the individual circuits within my home and shop for the past 13 years..I installed it after right after I got a grid tied solar system installed. Maybe overkill.
https://www.brultech.com/greeneye/
I can drill down into each circuit further. It’s been robust and can be expanded
GRAB30.jpg
Looks like a very mature product. What is the finest granularity available on an individual circuit (Hour/Min/Sec)?
 

scooterbum46

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Location
South Central Michigan / ex Gulf Coast Florida
this may be lower cost: https://circuitiq.ai/collections/iotawatt-power-monitoring I havent used it but i did use similar clamp on direct to a digital readout.
When I was shopping for a system, I looked at their website. Price was high for less circuits and I couldn't discern what reporting capabilities were included.
I have three Vues stacked, one at the main that includes some shop circuits, one on the 200A sub going to my solar and another on the 200A sub in my house.

You can dedicate a whole Vue to your 60A circuit if you need to but I'd throw a clamp meter on it and see if it really draws that much. I bet a 50a sensor would be enough if the wire size isn't too big. The Vue without all of the extra CT sensors is cheaper than the whole kit.

You can even nest their little smart plugs under a Vue and include that detail in the web interface.
As I've mentioned, I have a second Vue going in to cover the rest of the circuits in my main panel. Your entry got me to thinking - My workshop and barn are on a separate meter, which I could monitor with another Vue, watching a main and one sub.. AND fold all the info back into one reporting structure.. My total investment would still be less than $550 purchased through Amazon.
I am just curious why you would want something like this ? Would you actually change something that you are doing because of the results from the system ? Do you suspect somebody is stealing power somehow ? I guess I just don't understand the need for something like this in a typical residential setting.
I was operations manager for a large old fashioned big iron data center. One of my biggest wins was getting environmental monitoring installed that included temp, HVAC, underfloor water and power monitoring. Over the years, I'd used an Amprobe, then a pair of Amprobe strip recorders, one of the Killawatt devices, even a Radio Shack DVM with serial output but never got a picture of my energy use better than the electric bill at the end of the month. Nothing I could put assemble would equal what the Emporia product has.

So - what was my gain, other than not "flying blind"?
1: I'd just converted my house from oil heat (and an oil fired gun type hot water heater) plus a 32 year old central air system to a top of the line Carrier propane furnace, multi stage heat pump and a heat pump based hot water heater, with the assumption that most heating and cooling would be heat pump operating. I needed to validate the actual costs of the heat pump over the propane, as there could be a crossover point where propane could be less expensive, two winters data show that the heat pump even when running down to +- 9 degrees F is less expensive than propane.
2: In the first week of reporting from the Vue, I learned that the three LED shop light fixtures over the Laundry in the basement, which I left on because the damn switch was above/behind the dryer and, you know "LED lights are cheap to run", which is on a pedestal and hard to reach, was costing me about 7 bucks a month to leave on all the time. Fixed with a wifi switch..
3: Because the VUE provides single second granularity I was able to sort out outlets and light switches merely by watching a circuit with Vue and operating a switch or whatever is plugged into a wall circuit. (looking just now, I see that my refrigerator is drawing 6 watts when in it's rest cycle).
4: (a) This winter, because of health issues, I bought snow melting heating mats for our outside steps and the walkway to the main entrance - this is four 30"x 60" walkway mats and fifteen 10"x30" step mats. Late in the fall addition, so a pair of extension cords (the shame!) were run, each on an existing branch circuit in the house. First issue was a "Holy Jumpin ****" when I saw each of the circuits were now running a continuous 12-13 amps when it was below 32 degrees. I figured at least a $125 a month just to melt snow. I put on a pair of outdoor rated wifi controlled utility switches and only turned them on when it had snowed.
4: (b) Nance complained about dishes not drying in the dishwasher - checking I found the circuit breaker open. Hmmm.. then I noticed one half of the steps and walkway were covered in snow. Took me a minute to check with the Vue that the problem circuit, which I thought was under utilized when I put an outside outlet on it, actually now had the dishwasher that draws 1200 watts when drying the dishes. Adding that plus the outside load = open circuit breaker.. Found it with the Vue..

I guess that's enough examples, but I think the point is that we are increasingly dependent on that AC power getting distributed in our homes and it's very smart to figure out where it's going.
Plus I'm not an EV fan, but I can se the handwriting on the wall, I'm not quite over the hill yet, so I suppose there will be one of those here in my future and the Emporia system is all ready for that too.

I have a Vue system as well. It's been helpful understanding run time and draw on several circuits for sizing a generator and seeing run time on things like my pool heater.

Plus its been interesting seeing the data. Doesn't change my life, but I like having it
Indeed!
I have had an Emporia Vue running here for close to 4yrs and have zero complaints. I have two in the shop panel and have them “stacked” in the software so they show up as one system. Even if they can’t be perfectly combined you will be able to see the info you’re after. No need to spend a small fortune looking for a solution that already exists.

Quick little screenshot from the first screen you see what you log in.
IMG_6012.png
Great example..
I’ve used this system to monitor all the individual circuits within my home and shop for the past 13 years..I installed it after right after I got a grid tied solar system installed. Maybe overkill.
https://www.brultech.com/greeneye/
I can drill down into each circuit further. It’s been robust and can be expanded
GRAB30.jpg
As noted, pretty impressive, looks well organized.
Can you not just clamp an ammeter on the 200A (or the subs) and run the large draws at one time to do a load calc? Do need one of these systems or an electrician to do that? True that would be a one time measurement.
Sure could, note that a modern house has a million "small draws" too. When I was doing that, I never got a clear picture of where my electric power $$ were going..
I have two 200A panels with a Emporia Vue on each, and two Emporia EV chargers. You can now combine the the 200A panels together as well as nesting sub panels. It works very well. For my garage sub panel I am only measuring the feed off one of the main panels, but it only has 6 circuits so I am OK with that.

As to why - having insight into your electrical usage is both interesting (I am a nerd) but can also help you save energy/reduce your bill. It was really eye opening to me to see how much of a difference the re-circulator pump on my water heater made - turning it on almost doubles the energy usage, so we put it on a smart switch with a timer so it only runs about 20% of the time. I also now have great info on how much energy my garage minisplit actually uses (not much).
100% agree
I forgot to mention that it was my Emporia vue that identified an issue with my septic pump. It was running constantly, which highlighted water intrusion
I get a text when the oven (or a burner) has been on more than two hours.

I'll give one more example and shut up: When pulling the panel cover, while getting ready to install the second Vue to cover the remaining circuits in my primary breaker box, I must have dragged it sideways enough to knock two live circuits off line. The first circuit was the aforementioned dishwasher/snow melter one. No snow and dishes didn't get washed for a day - then Nance told me the dishwasher wasn't working. Why didn't I check(old hand at this now that I am) that there was another breaker off?
Then - Cue me calling the furnace guy two days later about the emergency message from Carrier's system that there was a fault on the Heat Pump (non descriptive type error message). The furnace guy schedules a visit for the next day and before hanging up asks if I had any recent power outages or been running on generator - nope and nop... "wait a minute, Ill call ya back". I was closer to my phone than the basement stairs,, a quick check on the Vue showed me the time and date that the heat pump circuit had quit drawing any power. Yup, time and date when I took the breaker cover off.... Kevin (the furnace guy) will hold this over me for a while :)
 
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Jeff F

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Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
74
Location
Kennett Square, PA
This is the level of detail (furnace circuit) I get from the monitoring system I linked earlier in this thread. I can retrieve this level of information for each circuit in my house. Seems this is what you are looking for???
Are you using the dashbox as your data host? It's not clear to me from their website, can the dashbox be accessed remotely or only on the local network?
 

scooterbum46

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
834
Location
South Central Michigan / ex Gulf Coast Florida
Looking at setting up a new (to me) house with electrical monitoring. The Emporia Vue system looks nice, but it is limited to to 2x 200A sensors and 16x 50A sensors.

The house currently has 200A service coming in, with 2x 100A subs going out to a garage and barn, so this system would have no way to monitor the 100A subs. I could add a second system to the barn (garage use is minimal), but in the barn there is a 60A circuit that powers the aux heat for a geothermal system, which is beyond the capacity of the 50A sensors (I don't know for sure what it actually pulls).

Is there a more "industrial' system that is more flexible with inputs, but still has the reporting and analysis tools that the home type systems have?
In answering your original post, if you are at all interested in the Emporia Vue and possible expansion options, a direct contact could get your answers. I've only asked a couple of questions, but have gotten quick responses that were not AI lol...
 

svtride

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Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Messages
199
Are you using the dashbox as your data host? It's not clear to me from their website, can the dashbox be accessed remotely or only on the local network?
Yes, the dashbox acts as a server host I think mine is 30gb. It can be accessed remotely (with appropriate router permission settings of course).
 

drboom

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Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
74
I have a Refoss system that feeds a home assistant server so I can slice and dice the data, create automations as I see fit as well as keep the data local and accessible should there be an internet or cloud outage. In my case, I have 4 total panels monitored in 3 different rooms as well as most of the individual circuits on each panel. I also have some kasa outlets with power metering for individual device loads that don’t align with full circuits.

Any of the systems I considered can take up quite a bit of space in the panel with all of the current transformers and related wiring.

Examples of the ways I use my data:
Note if the hot tub is on for more than a specified time indicating the cover is left off
We had a fridge fail from a refrigerant leak and I could pinpoint when it happened from the growth in daily power utilization. I could then verify the repair worked by comparing the historical usage. I check many of my appliance loads monthly for changes to identify changes that require investigation
I turn on/off air filtration systems when the CT monitoring the cooktop vent fan shows draw.
Monitor overall system draw when on generator backup to know what headroom we have and can act accordingly with power usage
 
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