Mandatory Water Cutoff Valve?

[justsam]

Based on some reading in my "Nextdoor Penngrove" community it looks like the insurance companies, or at least one for now are mandating automatic safety water cutoff valves. Please forgive if this is old news, but this is the first I have heard of this and I just so happen to be dealing with my insurance company who is mandating that I replace my 20 year old composition roof because of moss and algae, so I am overly sensitive right now to insurance company mandates.

The insurance company mentioned in the Nextdoor pages is Farmers. The specific valve mentioned is Moen, which I have provided a link. The valve itself is about $700, and clearly installation costs depends on time required of plumber. Looks like they discourage DIY and it must be inspected in order to get a validation letter to provide to Farmers. Seems like a bit of a racket but at least in California if you are any where near a fire area, insurance companies are the bullies.

Clearly having such a device is not a "bad" idea, just do not like to be forced into it. New construction or remodel could make make it less bitter. Looks like to get full functionality you need WiFi, so also need to have WiFi coverage in the valve area, (2.4GHz only).

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[PCustoms]

What is "Nextdoor Penngrove"?

 

[manwithtools]

What is "Nextdoor Penngrove"?

You have never heard of "Nextdoor"? OP is in Penngrove, CA so he would be getting his information from others in his neighborhood that use Nextdoor.

 

[PCustoms]

You have never heard of "Nextdoor"

The thing where Karen's ***** about how someone parked?

Not big over this way and didn't put it together that "nextdoor penngrove" was an online board, as OP made it sound like some official proclamation

 

[manwithtools]

That does sound a bit intrusive by the insurance company, do you have choices with other insurers?

 

[pcmeiners]

insurance company who is mandating that I replace my 20 year old composition roof because of moss and algae, so I am overly sensitive right now to insurance company mandates.

Same here but I hit my 40 year old leak free roof with copper sulfate, waited two weeks, cleaned all the moss/slugs etc. off the roof, luckily my insurance has not mentioned it again .

The flow valve is a ripoff, you can get it on Ebay for n50% less but not only do you need WiFi, but do not forget the expensive battery backup for it. A f****king valve like this will be $2000 with the "pro" install cost. Beats me how they can condemn a roof from satellite photos.

 

[lovetap]

I haven't heard of mandatory, but I installed a robo shutoff actuator with a couple water sensors around for peace of mine while I'm away for work or travel. One in the kitchen and another below my manifold. And some heat tape around my plumbing which flicks on when a thermometer indicates the boiler isn't keeping the room warm.

like this

 

[bluedog225]

I wouldn’t mind 1000 gallon shut off valve for my main waterline. Or whatever I choose to sell it for. I got a leak back on the acreage one day and it would’ve gone on forever if one of my neighbors had noticed. Gets expenses fast.

 

[justsam]

The thing where Karen's ***** about how someone parked?

Not big over this way and didn't put it together that "nextdoor penngrove" was an online board, as OP made it sound like some official proclamation

And the forever "whose dog crapped in my yard", my dog is lost again, etc

 

[Skyman]

It's not required by my insurance carrier, but it has been suggested, and they offer a non-trivial discount on the annual premium for having one installed. It's on my list of things to get to soon. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[logical]

What is "Nextdoor Penngrove"?

AKA "I heard a noise and my cat is missing.com".

 

[Codyboy]

I get all of my information from next door app.
Especially things of this nature.

 

[Codyboy]

I wouldn’t mind 1000 gallon shut off valve for my main waterline. Or whatever I choose to sell it for. I got a leak back on the acreage one day and it would’ve gone on forever if one of my neighbors had noticed. Gets expenses fast.

When does the anesthesia wear off?
Or has it worn off and these are the happy pills talking?
Lol

 

[reader2580]

Same here but I hit my 40 year old leak free roof with copper sulfate, waited two weeks, cleaned all the moss/slugs etc. off the roof, luckily my insurance has not mentioned it again .

Is that an asphalt shingle roof? Around here, a 40 year old shingle roof would look like the next gust of wind would remove most of the shingles. I am also not sure anyone would insure a roof that old. You generally can't get a new policy on any shingle roof over ten years old right now.

 

[Junkman]

The Moen valves have a problem and have gone through a few incarnations of the original. I don't see where they can be mandated by an insurance company, but in today's world, who knows what an insurance company can pull off until they get caught.

 

[pcmeiners]

Is that an asphalt shingle roof? Around here, a 40 year old 1shingle roof would look like the next gust of wind would remove most of the shingles.

Yes asphalt. The secret is I have approximately 150sqft of open ventilation, plus eves and ridge cap ventilation. My attic remains within a couple degrees of outside ambient temperature. End result my 40 year old roof is very pliable, no hardened shingles, which I would bet will last at least another 25 years unless condemned by flying objects.

"I am also not sure anyone would insure a roof that old. You generally can't get a new policy on any shingle roof over ten years old"

I was told by the insurance company to get a new roof. Not my problem if they can't tell by satellite or drone pictures if a roof is new or 40 years old with moss removed. The insurance companies are a-holes there is no way you can fairly judge a roof condition from satellite or drone pictures. I have done a lot of roofing and unless your on a roof you should not be condemning it.

"I don't see where they can be mandated by an insurance company, but in today's world, who knows what an insurance company can pull off until they get caught."

Well if you have lobbyists with tons of resource ($) you too could get away with BS like they do.

 

[75gmck25]

I always shut my water off at the main house valve when we leave for more than a day, so I have been looking at the Moen valves for quite a while. We have twice had neighbors where water problems occurred when they were out of town, and it was really expensive to repair. Drywall and flooring removal, mold remediation, drywall, molding and floor installation, painting, etc.

I continue looking because its seems like there should be a few competing products or an independent review of the Moen valve, but everything I find online is just simple user reviews (works great, etc.) . I am willing to spend the money if it works well, but its way too much if its not reliable.

 

[DGersic]

Clearly having such a device is not a "bad" idea, just do not like to be forced into it. New construction or remodel could make make it less bitter.

I seem to recall that one of the findings from your most recent slate of fires was that a lack of water shut offs lead to low water supply for fire fighting. So, if CA is mandating water shut offs, I can kinda see that as not unreasonable.

 

[kbuhagiar]

I seem to recall that one of the findings from your most recent slate of fires was that a lack of water shut offs lead to low water supply for fire fighting. So, if CA is mandating water shut offs, I can kinda see that as not unreasonable.

I wonder how that would apply to houses with fire supression (sprinkler) systems (like ours)?

I have a single feed for both the house and the sprinklers; I would have to break out and trench around 100 feet of concrete in order to establish a new separate feed for my sprinkler system. I'd hate to think of the sprinklers running dry when they may be needed the most.

 

[DGersic]

I wonder how that would apply to houses with fire supression (sprinkler) systems (like ours)?

I have a single feed for both the house and the sprinklers; I would have to break out and trench around 100 feet of concrete in order to establish a new separate feed for my sprinkler system. I'd hate to think of the sprinklers running dry when they may be needed the most.

If it were mine, I’d design it to keep the sprinklers running, but to have a point where it gives up and cuts the water off to save pressure for fire fighting.

 

[T444e]

I wonder how that would apply to houses with fire supression (sprinkler) systems (like ours)?

I have a single feed for both the house and the sprinklers; I would have to break out and trench around 100 feet of concrete in order to establish a new separate feed for my sprinkler system. I'd hate to think of the sprinklers running dry when they may be needed the most.

Not knowing how they do things in California but my experience with how water service is brought into commercial, industrial and institutional buildings in WI and IL, the fire protection is tee'd off the incoming service inside the building with backflow prevention on the fire protection line. In your instance, my thought is the cut-off valve would be installed just downstream of the tee for the fire protection on the domestic water side . The valve would shutoff the domestic water in the house while allowing the fire protection to remain in service.

 

[CraigStu]

I just glanced through this again and have a question. I 'think' I understand that the home owner can control the valve via his phone. For this to be worthwhile to the gov (the Cali example), I suspect they can also control them somehow. Does that mean they might also have access to one's phone?

 

[PCustoms]

Cali and government phone control....

IBTL

 

[Old tool guy]

, I suspect they can also control them somehow. Does that mean they might also have access to one's phone?

Daughter in Tx installed a thermostat that is on the special approved list of the electric company (all-elect house) and they can put restrictions on the settings she can use. I really suspect the water valve will be the same way, they will shut off or throttle your water at their whim.

 

[carlaisle]

Find a new insurance company or tell them to write an exclusion for any damage occurring to your insured premises resulting from the absence of such a shut off.

 

[reader2580]

Find a new insurance company or tell them to write an exclusion for any damage occurring to your insured premises resulting from the absence of such a shut off.

You're willing to take the risk of water damage costing you thousands of dollars? Water damage claims are some of the most common insurance claims.

 

[liliysdad]

Daughter in Tx installed a thermostat that is on the special approved list of the electric company (all-elect house) and they can put restrictions on the settings she can use. I really suspect the water valve will be the same way, they will shut off or throttle your water at their whim.

Why in the world would someone do this?

 

[Old tool guy]

Why in the world would someone do this?

Do what?

 

[FullRaceMerc]

I installed one of those moen wifi shutoff valves in my boss's house several month's ago. The valve was required by his insurance company or they were going to cancel him. Same company as my house, but they've said nothing to me.

I'm not sure what the difference is. He's had some claims, I have not. Maybe that's it. His house is worth more than mine, could be a value threshold.

I don't think they required the moen brand, but that's what he bought. He shopped around quite a bit & paid less than mentioned here. It needed a 110v outlet & wifi access.

It learns your water usage, & cuts it off if you have a significant increase. He's had 1 shutdown, when his kid left the tub running. He was happy that it worked. It's installed after his lawn sprinklers & hose bibbs, but before anything indoors.

They also required him to install a monitored security system.




I like the thought of a water shutoff that cuts off water during a major fire. I don't know if the moen valve would do that once power is cut.

The Jan 7 2025 Altadena fire came a few blocks from my house. And we do work in the Palisades. Both of those areas lost many homes. Each house lost became a wide open water leak. Fire hydrants use the same water supply that homes do. Once you have hundreds of houses leaking like that there is no water left to fight the fire. Both areas ran out of water. They tried to backfeed water from below, but with that many wide open lines they were unable to build any pressure.

I think either home systems & fire hydrant systems should be separated, with the ability to turn off an area that is losing too much water, or homes in those areas need some sort of automatic shutoff in case of fire. Like the gas earthquake valves that many homes have now.

This is not a new issue, even though people talk like it's a surprise. The Bradbury fire in 1980 had the same problem. My boss (Different boss) lost his home in that one. We've had a lot of years to do something, but haven't.

 

[liliysdad]

Do what?

Install a thermostat that allows the utility provider to set limits on functionality…or allows access in absolutely any way?

Perhaps I read that wrong…

 

[rharman]

I just glanced through this again and have a question. I 'think' I understand that the home owner can control the valve via his phone. For this to be worthwhile to the gov (the Cali example), I suspect they can also control them somehow. Does that mean they might also have access to one's phone?

Daughter in Tx installed a thermostat that is on the special approved list of the electric company (all-elect house) and they can put restrictions on the settings she can use. I really suspect the water valve will be the same way, they will shut off or throttle your water at their whim.

@CraigStu - Where did you get the idea that the state has or needs any involvement? The Moen Flo (and others) connects to your home network. There is no outside visibility. There certainly is no visibility to your phone by any provider or government entity.

@Old tool guy - We've had shutoff devices attached to our air conditioners by the electric company for probably 30 or more years. It's a voluntary program where they can shutoff the A/C in the event of a power shortage. There are limits as to how often and how long and the limits vary by the tier you select when you signup for the program. The benefit is we get a discount during the summer months on our bill - based on tonnage. It's not a trivial amount and they've only been activated a handful of times in all those years. Some tiers have a "bypass" option where you get a limited number of overrides per season. BUT.... that option/tier has a much lower overall discount.

On the thermostats, what I've seen on Google sounds somewhat similar. The provider can raise the set point on the thermostat when required during summer months. Sounds like a voluntary program too.

I'm planning on having a Moen Flo or similar device installed soon along with sensors at potential leak locations. Having dealt with discovering a slow leak in the wall of our master bath and the ensuing problems and reconstruction, I don't want to go through that again. And, we caught it relatively early. Water is an insidious thing when it gets loose.

 

[liliysdad]

@Old tool guy - We've had shutoff devices attached to our air conditioners by the electric company for probably 35 or more years. It's a voluntary program where they can shutoff the A/C in the event of a power shortage. There are limits as to how often and how long and the limits vary by the tier you select when you signup for the program. The benefit is we get a discount during the summer months on our bill - based on tonnage. It's not a trivial amount and they've only been activated a handful of times in all those years. Some tiers have a "bypass" option where you get a limited number of overrides per season. BUT.... that option/tier hasa much lower overall discount.

On the thermostats, what I've seen on Google sounds somewhat similar. The provider can raise the set point on the thermostat when required during summer months. Sounds like a voluntary program too.

I have never heard of such a thing… and there’s no way in hell I’m giving the utility company the authority to dictate what my thermostat is set at, let alone shut it off at their discretion. That’s absolutely crazy.

 

[finn]

The Moen valves have a problem and have gone through a few incarnations of the original. I don't see where they can be mandated by an insurance company, but in today's world, who knows what an insurance company can pull off until they get caught.

They became popular or even mandated after the California fires of a couple of years ago. Entire neighborhoods went up in flames when the water supply system for those neighborhoods went dry after the initial fires burnt down enough houses to bleed the system out.

The houses were already gone, but the water continued flowing into them and the hydrants couldn’t provide enough water to save the remaining structures.

It was a real contributor to the overall devastation.

 

[Junkman]

Around here, if you are on a municipal water supply, they can shut off the home's water at the street because both hydrants and homes are connected. The street valve is to stop your water supply if you need to do work between the street and the meter in your cellar, or if you don't pay your bill. Water bills are quite high per home in the Northeast, and if you have a municipal sewer system, then that is paid by your water usage. If your water bill is $100 a month, then the sewer bill is also $100 a month. Many people don't wash their cars or water their lawns because of the cost of the sewer bill. I know that in the South, some towns have a separate system for watering lawns that uses reclaimed water. Water is one of those commodities you take for granted, until there is a drought.
My only water expense is running my well pump and maintaining that system. On the other hand, you can throw in the cost of the septic system maintenance. Once both are installed, if you take care of them, they can be trouble-free for decades.

 

[Old tool guy]

I have never heard of such a thing… and there’s no way in hell I’m giving the utility company the authority to dictate what my thermostat is set at, let alone shut it off at their discretion. That’s absolutely crazy.

You can override the remote setting, but when we visit the daughter we notice that the house seems too warm in the summer and too cold in the winter. Supposedly she gets a slightly lower rate. Not my cup of tea.

 

[manwithtools]

I have never heard of such a thing… and there’s no way in hell I’m giving the utility company the authority to dictate what my thermostat is set at, let alone shut it off at their discretion. That’s absolutely crazy.

We had a utility controlled disconnect on the water heater here in middle TN years ago to allow the utility to shed load if needed. A slight bill credit was the result, I can't ever remember being without hot water because of it.

It's a pretty common thing in areas that are challenged to keep the grid operating during peak demand periods. When we lived in San Diego we had the thermostat control arrangement with the power utility. When they anticipated peak demands, they would actually lower the thermostat setting for a couple of hours prior to the peak event, then they would raise the setting to help offfest the demand at peak. This allowed the house to stay cool a little longer once they raised the setting. In exchange we got a bit of a discount on the bill and if you had a well insulated house the inconvenience was minor.

You would probably be shocked to learn that they would proactively disconnect power to entire areas in times of high fire risk - Santa Ana winds typically. Then they would have to physically inspect all the power lines before restoring power. This would result in several days of no power. This prompted many rural homes to have backup generators or solar and batteries to get through the power outages without loss of freezer and fridge contents. Again, an inconvenience, but better than entire neighborhoods burning down.

 

[liliysdad]

We have grid shutdowns for fire mitigation during wind events. That’s been a thing for a long time.

That, in my opinion, is not remotely the same thing as giving the utility access to my personal thermostat or appliances at any point in time. There is not a scenario on earth where that would be OK to me.

 

[kbuhagiar]

That, in my opinion, is not remotely the same thing as giving the utility access to my personal thermostat or appliances at any point in time. There is not a scenario on earth where that would be OK to me.

I have to admit, as enthusiastic as I am about welcoming cutting edge technology into my home, this is my line in the sand.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Daughter in Tx installed a thermostat that is on the special approved list of the electric company (all-elect house) and they can put restrictions on the settings she can use. I really suspect the water valve will be the same way, they will shut off or throttle your water at their whim.

I have a saver switch or whatever they call it on my a/c condenser. During extra high demand periods the power company can cycle it off and on for short periods if necessary, I think it's something like 20 minutes off then 20 minutes on. The blower in the furnace will continue to run circulating air through the house, so the effect will be nearly unnoticeable. That said, as far as I know the power company has never actually done it in fifteen years or so that it's been installed, and having it there gets me a discount on my bill whether it's used or not.

It's only there for air conditioning, it has no effect on heating.

 

[gorilla]

After the 1906 earthquake in San Francisco the city rebuilt the water system so that the fire hydrants had a dedicated water supply. I understand that no other city in the country has this.