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Riddle me this about HF saw blades

dwasifar

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Here are the HF selections for 24t 6.5" blades:

677.png

And here's HD around the corner:

673.png

The Hercules looks like a closer comparison to the Diablo. I'm wondering how we got to the point where HF is charging more than the name brand. That Hercules blade doesn't even have the usual "Compare to [x] at $x.**" on the listing. Is Hercules now supposed to be a premium brand in its own right, that can command higher prices than Diablo?
 
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JeepYJ

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If you’re in there buying a new circ saw and need a blade- there it is. Or buy it with a coupon or when it’s on sale. Just a different marketing strategy by HF to make more margin on the consumables and sell the main tool for less.
Personally, I’d buy the Diablo.
 

Old tool guy

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The second and third blades have the little nub behind each tooth, that’s supposed to be a safety thing, reduces the amount of material it can take or something like that. When i bought my Frued stack dado about 25 yrs ago, i think thst was one of the advertised features.
 

AEAdam

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You all probably know this but China is not known for their excellent high quality steel. They have really significant issues in their raw material supply chain, which is holding them back from mass producing aircraft (engines) for example.

BUT!!!! China makes amazing carbide. It has a fine grain structure and it's cheap. My guess is, all of these blades incorporate Chinese made carbide cutting edges. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bauer blades were pretty decent. I wouldn't assume the Bauer blades are "cheap Chinese junk at much inflated prices". That said, I tend to stick with blades from first world countries. Can't afford to have one of them come unglued and send shrapnel into my face.
 

neophyte

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The second and third blades have the little nub behind each tooth, that’s supposed to be a safety thing, reduces the amount of material it can take or something like that. When i bought my Frued stack dado about 25 yrs ago, i think thst was one of the advertised features.
I believe that little nub is required by European safety regulations, at least for industrial use.

As fat as the general question goes, Bosch owns Diablo and Freud, and seems to be one of the world’s largest producers of certain types of blades, such as jigsaw blades, to the point that most power tool manufacturers sell Swiss made blades under their own brands, that were made by Bosch.
Back in the 1980s and 1990s, Bosch sold router bits and other tooling under the Bosch brand, and in certain markets and categories still does, but the router bits were not considered “the best” and came out poorly in some testing, so presumably Bosch decided to purchase Freud Group, since Freud was considered a fairly decent blade and bit manufacturer.
I don’t know who came up with the technology, but I presume Freud may have developed automated technology to make small carbide toothed blades, which has led to carbide toothed oscillating blades, with fairly tiny teeth, and carbide toothed reciprocating saw blades, and carbide toothed jigsaw blades, etc.
From what I recall, these only entered the marketplace around the time Bosch bought Freud Group in 2009, give or take, when previously, “carbide” blades where usually either larger carbide teeth on circular saw blades, or carbide grit used grit abrasive cutting on Other types of blades.
“Bimetal” blades where a thing, but that is a different technique involving welding or fusing a strip of harder more durable steel on the edge of a more flexible alloy, before using an automated system to grind the blade teeth on, similar to the way normal bandsaw and hacksaw blades are made.
Stellite toothed blades were also a thing, but mire of a niche thing, which I presume uses an automated system to weld a glob of stellite onto the teeth of blades such as bandsaw blades, before using an automated grinding system.
With the individual carbide teeth, the individual teeth need to be placed, and brazed onto the blade, before final grinding.
Bosch, or Freud, the owner/s of the Diablo brand, likely developed a highly efficient automated system To place and braze and grind the teeth, making production costs incredibly low.
 

mike93lx

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You all probably know this but China is not known for their excellent high quality steel. They have really significant issues in their raw material supply chain, which is holding them back from mass producing aircraft (engines) for example.

BUT!!!! China makes amazing carbide. It has a fine grain structure and it's cheap. My guess is, all of these blades incorporate Chinese made carbide cutting edges. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bauer blades were pretty decent. I wouldn't assume the Bauer blades are "cheap Chinese junk at much inflated prices". That said, I tend to stick with blades from first world countries. Can't afford to have one of them come unglued and send shrapnel into my face.
We can count on you to post something like issues with steel for aircraft engines in a discussion on table saw blades 😂
 

PWC Repair

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Sure, but if people need a saw blade, they generally can’t wait until it is on ssle.

Harbor Freight has “convenience store” pricing on more than a few items imo
..........which is why some of those people are prepared already because they bought the 2 pack Diablo blades when they were 9.99 during Christmas LOL!!!
 

zendriver

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You all probably know this but China is not known for their excellent high quality steel. They have really significant issues in their raw material supply chain, which is holding them back from mass producing aircraft (engines) for example.

BUT!!!! China makes amazing carbide. It has a fine grain structure and it's cheap. My guess is, all of these blades incorporate Chinese made carbide cutting edges. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bauer blades were pretty decent. I wouldn't assume the Bauer blades are "cheap Chinese junk at much inflated prices". That said, I tend to stick with blades from first world countries. Can't afford to have one of them come unglued and send shrapnel into my face.
China is not a “first world country”? What century is this?

They are the largest steel producer in the world, and they can probably produce any kind of level ofsteel, but may not see the need to compete with foreign producers of specialties steel

They surely shouldbe able to make a piece of flat steel that brazed carbide can hang onto
 

AEAdam

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China is not a “first world country”? What century is this?

They are the largest steel producer in the world, and they can probably produce any kind of level ofsteel, but may not see the need to compete with foreign producers of specialties steel
like drill bits? Is that a specialty steel?

So you are saying they could build jet engines if they wanted to, but they prefer to buy Russian engines, is that it?
They surely shouldbe able to make a piece of flat steel that brazed carbide can hang onto
I’m sure you are right. Still….They can’t quite seem to make high rise apartment buildings though.
 

KnurledNut

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I wouldn’t recommend the Bauer blade for cordless saws. I didn’t like the performance, it seemed to cut slower in general and have more drag in heavy cuts. I also wasn’t impressed with blade life.

The best advice I can offer from many years doing this professionally, just go with Diablo for circular saw blades.
 

bwringer

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The Herc and Diablo also include the laser-cut slots to supposedly reduce ringing and vibration.


..........which is why some of those people are prepared already because they bought the 2 pack Diablo blades when they were 9.99 during Christmas LOL!!!
Yeah, me too. Small world! There was a fair amount of assery because they couldn't find the things when I got to the store to pick them up... but I got them in the end, and they do work wonderfully in my battery saw, and use perceptibly less energy per cut than others I've tried.

I'm sure the Hercules blades work fine, and the Bauer will eventually make its way through the occasional pine 2x4.
 

drokihazan

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like drill bits? Is that a specialty steel?

So you are saying they could build jet engines if they wanted to, but they prefer to buy Russian engines, is that it?

I’m sure you are right. Still….They can’t quite seem to make high rise apartment buildings though.
?!?!?!? have you been to china? it's literally nothing except high rise apartment buildings. all the cities look like NYC.
also china's problems with jet engines historically have *nothing* to do with steel. they had issues producing perfect turbine blades, but they're catching up very fast. china is as first world as it comes, idk what you're talking about in this thread. i'd rather live in shanghai than mississippi, that's for sure.
the only reason any of us have qualms about chinese tools is not that they somehow magically can't make them. they make a hundred million iphones a year which are a hell of a lot more difficult to make than a wrench or a drill bit. the issue is that china has lots of cheap manufacturers making cheap products, and usually the folks making tools there are using those cheap ones.
you get what you pay for, though. there's nothing in the world china can't make except ultra dense semiconductors and they'll be making those too soon enough.
they definitely don't have any issues producing uncomplicated and basic tool steels, you just have to pay them enough to make them.
 
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zendriver

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like drill bits? Is that a specialty steel?

So you are saying they could build jet engines if they wanted to, but they prefer to buy Russian engines, is that it?

I’m sure you are right. Still….They can’t quite seem to make high rise apartment buildings though.
Fair questions.

I’ve had a handful of good Chinese drill bits, but most of them are ****. But to be fair, the 30 piece drillbit that was probably $12 so I had to adjust my expectations accordingly.

Since you’re an engineer, I’ll ask you the honst question.

China can make everything from fake puke up to lunar landers. They steal technology or they can and send their engineers to the finest colleges in the world.

Steelmaking has been around for thousands of years and the world‘s largest producer What is it about China that they can’t figure out how to make top quality steel? :dunno:
 

neophyte

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Fair questions.

I’ve had a handful of good Chinese drill bits, but most of them are ****. But to be fair, the 30 piece drillbit that was probably $12 so I had to adjust my expectations accordingly.

Since you’re an engineer, I’ll ask you the honst question.

China can make everything from fake puke up to lunar landers. They steal technology or they can and send their engineers to the finest colleges in the world.

Steelmaking has been around for thousands of years and the world‘s largest producer What is it about China that they can’t figure out how to make top quality steel? :dunno:
There are supposedly three or four Chinese manufacturers that make the top of the line steel, but those manufacturers only want to make large batches for high dollar amounts.

Smaller purchasers either need connections to piggyback off of the larger batches, or need to know steel distributors who can do so, or find left over batches of the quality steel.
Because of this, if Stanley wants yo make wrenches or Vise Grips in China, they can usually front the money for the good steel, and have suppliers make the tools for them from the good steel, and Stanley probably knows enough to test the tools yo ensure the proper steel and techniques are bring used.
Grizzly Tools in an article from a couple decades or more ago even mentioned having people in China, testing cast parts for flatness, to insure out of spec **** wasn’t used.
Stanley Tools and other major manufacturers can afford to do this.
Many smaller manufacturers and purchasers cannot.
Harbor Freight supposedly has a testing lab just to test tools, and even they wind up with **** sometimes.

There are certainly potentially decent, and decent manufacturers in China, but there are also a lot of **** ones, who short cut on materials or workmanship, or who just don’t understand the necessary details to what they're making.
I think one test years back of Chinese cars, some of which were fairly close copies of American or European made models, found that while the cars looked the same, crumple zones and other issues were present, which the Chinese manufacturers hadn’t engineered gor, or didn’t even understand.

Even US and European manufacturers sometimes have these issues.
The test over time is whether these issues get corrected.
 
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JeepYJ

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There are certainly potentially decent, and decent manufacturers in China, but there are also a lot of **** ones, who short cut on materials or workmanship, or who just don’t understand the necessary details to what they're making.
This probably applies to every country around the world?
 

neophyte

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This probably applies to every country around the world?
Yes, but the lower level Chinese manufacturers were sort of known for just trying to copy stuff as cheaply as possible, and then to export that ****, where other countries had certain minimum quality levels that items were made to.
Other countries seemed to refuse to export their lowest quality items.
I know Japanese tool manufacturers at one point had a reputation for low quality goods, and my understanding is that these low quality products, may still have been being manufactured for domestically, for domestic use, for much longer than US tool users might be aware of, it’s just exporters seemed to refuse to export the low quality items, at least to the US and Europe.
 

zendriver

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There are supposedly three or four Chinese manufacturers that make the top of the line steel, but those manufacturers only want to make large batches for high dollar amounts.

Smaller purchasers either need connections to piggyback off of the larger batches, or need to know steel distributors who can do so, or find left over batches of the quality steel.
Because of this, if Stanley wants yo make wrenches or Vise Grips in China, they can usually front the money for the good steel, and have suppliers make the tools for them from the good steel, and Stanley probably knows enough to test the tools yo ensure the proper steel and techniques are bring used.
Grizzly Tools in an article from a couple decades or more ago even mentioned having people in China, testing cast parts for flatness, to insure out of spec **** wasn’t used.
Stanley Tools and other major manufacturers can afford to do this.
Many smaller manufacturers and purchasers cannot.
Harbor Freight supposedly has a testing lab just to test tools, and even they wind up with **** sometimes.

There are certainly potentially decent, and decent manufacturers in China, but there are also a lot of **** ones, who short cut on materials or workmanship, or who just don’t understand the necessary details to what they're making.
I think one test years back of Chinese cars, some of which were fairly close copies of American or European made models, found that while the cars looked the same, crumple zones and other issues were present, which the Chinese manufacturers hadn’t engineered gor, or didn’t even understand.

Even US and European manufacturers sometimes have these issues.
The test over time is whether these issues get corrected.
That sounds like it’s about money and how much people want to spend for quality steel

Harbor freight probably sells a lot more of their $12 drillbit sets than they do any of the more expensive ones
 

AEAdam

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Recommend never using Apple's iPhone as an example of Chinese ingenuity, or manufacturing prowess. That specific example does not support the conclusions typically intended. China contributes touch labor only.

China manufactures MANY products they contribute zero intellectual property to. And to be fair to them, they aren't happy about it. Its a big and complicated problem, beyond the scope here.

Back on topic, I have my theories as to why, but it has been my experience that Chinese tool steels are uniformly inferior. Carbide is pretty darned good.

To the point here, I would think (and said) Made in China carbide tipped saw blades would be excellent.

Now thinking about, pretty sure my Milwaukee track saw blades are made in China and carbide tipped and they are pretty atrocious. In retrospect, I think I would have been happier with a Makita track saw and Japanese Tenryu blades. National preferences aside, Italy actually makes really nice blades (Freud, Diablo, CMT). My understanding is the next step up for industrial machines are Swiss made.

Here's my advice: Buy whatever blade you want and try it. I seriously doubt any power saw blade, used properly, will come unglued. So try it! Try that Bauer blade. Especially for circ saws that sometimes hit nails. I personally use Diablo blades in my circ saws.

I will not buy power saw blades from faceless Amazon merchants. That's like buying something in a back alley from a masked seller. If you don't recognize the brand name, pass.
 

JeepYJ

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Recommend never using Apple's iPhone as an example of Chinese ingenuity, or manufacturing prowess. That specific example does not support the conclusions typically intended. China contributes touch labor only.
Ok how about Milwaukee battery power tools?
 

neophyte

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Recommend never using Apple's iPhone as an example of Chinese ingenuity, or manufacturing prowess. That specific example does not support the conclusions typically intended. China contributes touch labor only.

China manufactures MANY products they contribute zero intellectual property to. And to be fair to them, they aren't happy about it. Its a big and complicated problem, beyond the scope here.

Back on topic, I have my theories as to why, but it has been my experience that Chinese tool steels are uniformly inferior. Carbide is pretty darned good.

To the point here, I would think (and said) Made in China carbide tipped saw blades would be excellent.

Now thinking about, pretty sure my Milwaukee track saw blades are made in China and carbide tipped and they are pretty atrocious. In retrospect, I think I would have been happier with a Makita track saw and Japanese Tenryu blades. National preferences aside, Italy actually makes really nice blades (Freud, Diablo, CMT). My understanding is the next step up for industrial machines are Swiss made.

Here's my advice: Buy whatever blade you want and try it. I seriously doubt any power saw blade, used properly, will come unglued. So try it! Try that Bauer blade. Especially for circ saws that sometimes hit nails. I personally use Diablo blades in my circ saws.

I will not buy power saw blades from faceless Amazon merchants. That's like buying something in a back alley from a masked seller. If you don't recognize the brand name, pass.
With a carbide toothed saw blade, I doubt performance is just the quality of the carbide teeth.
Some manufacturers used to use and advertise a multilayer brazing process, I think with silver in one layer, to help handle thermal stress to prevent carbide tooth loss.
I doubt this would be done on a $10 or under blade, but obviously performance and long life were s factor in developing the system.
The steel blade blank would also need to have consistent thickness, and be stress relieved do it don’t warp from heat while cutting, or get easily bent. (A blade that curls slightly like a piece of paper would be bad, and potentially unsafe).
As far as tooth materials go, top of the line blade teeth for industrial use can now be bought with Cermet, or a bonded diamond material.
 

M635_Guy

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I decided to get really nice blades that could be resharpened and went with Forrest - outstanding quality, MiUSA and resharpening should cut down on the (kinda painful) bite of the initial price...

Recommend never using Apple's iPhone as an example of Chinese ingenuity, or manufacturing prowess. That specific example does not support the conclusions typically intended. China contributes touch labor only.

China manufactures MANY products they contribute zero intellectual property to. And to be fair to them, they aren't happy about it. Its a big and complicated problem, beyond the scope here.
There's literally nothing in the post above that's true. I don't know where you get your 'information' but it's vastly incorrect. It's not really a topic for GJ anyway, so I'll skip a more detailed response other than to say the actual truth is kinda frightening.
 

whateg01

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I decided to get really nice blades that could be resharpened and went with Forrest - outstanding quality, MiUSA and resharpening should cut down on the (kinda painful) bite of the initial price...
I looked into resharpening for the makerspace, but while the cost wasn't horrible, it wasn't great either, vs a new diablo blade. Worst was the months-long TAT.
 

Roert42

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As far as I’m aware China still touts itself as a communist country. This should classify it as a “Second world” country. Regardless of the quality of its saw blades.


The blue HF blade has more anti vibration squiggly lines then the Diablo. Probably not comparing apples to apples. This could explain the price difference.
 

drokihazan

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Then you should go live there!

Then you can post about how great it is living in your high rise NYC like apartment here on garage journal... if you can get through the great firewall of hcina that is...
shockingly, there are alternatives to mississippi besides shanghai :) love it there though, will visit again, great city
 

drokihazan

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Recommend never using Apple's iPhone as an example of Chinese ingenuity, or manufacturing prowess. That specific example does not support the conclusions typically intended. China contributes touch labor only.

China manufactures MANY products they contribute zero intellectual property to. And to be fair to them, they aren't happy about it. Its a big and complicated problem, beyond the scope here.

Back on topic, I have my theories as to why, but it has been my experience that Chinese tool steels are uniformly inferior. Carbide is pretty darned good.

To the point here, I would think (and said) Made in China carbide tipped saw blades would be excellent.

Now thinking about, pretty sure my Milwaukee track saw blades are made in China and carbide tipped and they are pretty atrocious. In retrospect, I think I would have been happier with a Makita track saw and Japanese Tenryu blades. National preferences aside, Italy actually makes really nice blades (Freud, Diablo, CMT). My understanding is the next step up for industrial machines are Swiss made.

Here's my advice: Buy whatever blade you want and try it. I seriously doubt any power saw blade, used properly, will come unglued. So try it! Try that Bauer blade. Especially for circ saws that sometimes hit nails. I personally use Diablo blades in my circ saws.

I will not buy power saw blades from faceless Amazon merchants. That's like buying something in a back alley from a masked seller. If you don't recognize the brand name, pass.
I don't want to get too deep into my career or this topic on this forum, so I'll just put this all in one comment and leave my statement out there. I'll also say you're so off-base in the iPhone thing that I hesitate to pay attention to literally anything else you say as being informed or accurate. Plenty of extremely complex and challenging components are designed right there in China and sold by vendors who incorporate them into complex products like smartphones, tablets, laptops, PC motherboards, cars, whatever you can think of. They are not mindless automaton factories that only follow instructions and have no thought, Foxconn is one of the most advanced engineering and design firms in the world - not just a manufacturer staffed by empty-headed lineworkers.

China is pumping out millions of skilled engineers every year now, and failing to respect their capability or accomplishment is the kind of backwards thinking that causes a competitor (that's us, here in the US) to fall behind and be caught standing around confused while our competitors are innovating and leaving us in the dust. BYD is a prime example of how this is beginning to happen in real-time with US vs China and pretending that it's not happening while they begin to take over the car market everywhere else in the world does us zero benefit.

I generally find that posters on GarageJournal trend more towards sound reasoning and evidence and an understanding that you can always get what you pay for, including from China if you're willing to pay for it, but your comments are just littered with misinformation. Between claiming they have no engineers or designers who do anything but copy paste, or claiming that they're somehow incapable of basic materials science, it's impossible to take your comments seriously. Just how difficult do you think it is to make low inclusion high grade steel/aluminum/inconel/etc that somehow the largest manufacturing base in the world can't do it?

I will tell you, flat out, that a company like Baosteel can make literally any alloy you want, period, to whatever specs you want, for any purpose in any industry, no exceptions. Just to throw an example out there, Shanghai STAL is a subsidiary of Baosteel that makes incredible low inclusion stainless alloys in thin (think 0.040mm) Sendzimir-strip for all kinds of high tech electronics manufacturing needs for a lot of customers whose products you know and use, and they definitely come up with alloy designs and manufacturing methods on their own - it's what they do.

China is a trading partner, occasionally an ally, occasionally an enemy, but always always always a fierce competitor to us. Underestimating them is irresponsible and benefits no one.
 

AEAdam

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I don't want to get too deep into my career or this topic on this forum, so I'll just put this all in one comment and leave my statement out there. I'll also say you're so off-base in the iPhone thing that I hesitate to pay attention to literally anything else you say as being informed or accurate.
You used iphone as an example of China's manufacturing know how.

1) Foxconn is a Taiwan owned company
2) Foxconn did not do ANY design engineering on iphone and really just built to print. Even the machines they used were chosen for them by engineers in California and those machines weren't made in China.

iPhone is not a good example of China's domestic manufacturing capability. Its an outstanding example of the exploitation of Chinese workers' low labor cost by outsiders (Taiwan and US) who do not/have not shared the key technologies with the manufacturing facility to enable them to grow their domestic capabilities. Its a well documented sore point for China.
 

zendriver

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Recommend never using Apple's iPhone as an example of Chinese ingenuity, or manufacturing prowess. That specific example does not support the conclusions typically intended. China contributes touch labor only.

China manufactures MANY products they contribute zero intellectual property to. And to be fair to them, they aren't happy about it. Its a big and complicated problem, beyond the scope here.

Back on topic, I have my theories as to why, but it has been my experience that Chinese tool steels are uniformly inferior. Carbide is pretty darned good.

To the point here, I would think (and said) Made in China carbide tipped saw blades would be excellent.

Now thinking about, pretty sure my Milwaukee track saw blades are made in China and carbide tipped and they are pretty atrocious. In retrospect, I think I would have been happier with a Makita track saw and Japanese Tenryu blades. National preferences aside, Italy actually makes really nice blades (Freud, Diablo, CMT). My understanding is the next step up for industrial machines are Swiss made.

Here's my advice: Buy whatever blade you want and try it. I seriously doubt any power saw blade, used properly, will come unglued. So try it! Try that Bauer blade. Especially for circ saws that sometimes hit nails. I personally use Diablo blades in my circ saws.

I will not buy power saw blades from faceless Amazon merchants. That's like buying something in a back alley from a masked seller. If you don't recognize the brand name, pass.
Your comment about touch labor only and not having any oftheir own intellectual property might be two of the silliest things I’ve ever heard said about China
 

Rkcubed

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China is on the verge of becoming the world leader in auto production. The quality of their cars are outstanding compared to the price. Our car industry is going to suffer from political pressure.
 

AEAdam

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Sorry we drifted from sawblades. My fault. Hopefully everybody has said what they wanted to about China. That's a conversation we're not going to all agree on, which is fine. Sorry if I offended your collective sensibilities. (I was actually trying to defend the HF blades in my first post).
 

zendriver

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My guess HF figures a hurried buyer will just chuck up the extra five bucks, for the upgrade to the "best" and get on with their work day. That kind of their thing.

Whether the blade is actually $5 better, who knows? :dunno:

As far as the Diablo, they'll have to get that somewhere else.
 

Rkcubed

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China builds far more vehicles than the USA. Japan builds nearly as many vehicles as the US. IMG_6208.jpeg
The majority of the Chinese sales are in Asia so far. Look at how fast China has moved into other countries market. Like in Canada and Europe. It’s sales are pushing the US out of business.
 
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