How did Snap On become the standard?

[M.Jay]

News Flash: then you fundamentally don't understand our society, how things work or don't here, what our kids are up against.

Since I live on the other side of the Atlantic you are probably right.
But since OP initial question was quite general I thought I'd share my view from a different part of the world. Judging by the salty reaction however, this is apparently unwelcome.

Not only is Snap on selling them tools at 0% interest, they are selling the poorest workers the BEST tools to stop any sort of underclass, discrimination, etc. Imagine a trade where the workers with the best quality tools were able to do the best work and work fastest, while the poorer kids were stuck in some weird underclass.

Sounds to me like corporate PR ********.

 

[neophyte]

News Flash: then you fundamentally don't understand our society, how things work or don't here, what our kids are up against. And you REALLY don't understand Snap on.

The CEO has said publicly many times: His company is focused on providing the highest possible quality tools to workers who otherwise wouldn't have the cash to enter the trade. Not only is Snap on selling them tools at 0% interest, they are selling the poorest workers the BEST tools to stop any sort of underclass, discrimination, etc. Imagine a trade where the workers with the best quality tools were able to do the best work and work fastest, while the poorer kids were stuck in some weird underclass.

If you think about it from the point of view of the kids entering the trade, and try not to assume they are imbeciles, it makes sense what they're doing. Remember, their friends are going into debt in universities studying (financially) worthless majors.

Europe has a better system of trade schools (colleges) and a much better sense of the honor and dignity of workers. Our kids are really up against it.

FWIW, I have one in uni, one in college (nursing), and the third is a blue color worker printing labels for shampoo bottles.


Duh, just lead with that.

“Europe has a better system of trade schools (colleges) and a much better sense of the honor and dignity of workers. Our kids are really up against it.”

Many European trades require employers to provide all the tools, and equipment, and uniforms, and safety clothing, etc. that is required to do the job.
The plus is that the workers just need to show up and know how to do the job.
The minus, is that outside of work, the employee needs to buy tools to do work on the side, or gor personal use, if the employer does not allow anything to be brought in, or tools to be borrowed.
Uniforms supplied by employers only work if the clothing is decent, and you like it. (Potential hell for someone on the autism spectrum).

European trades are also apparently strictly divided, with divisions you might not expect.
Some old Cockney bricklayer with a youtube channel has pointed out that technically, brick laying, and brick pointing, are two separate trades, and while he has done brick pointing, it was not technically his trade.
Stone masonry and cutting was also a separate trade.
This guy was interested enough in the trades, that he could explain the differences in the different trowel shapes, and how some of the slightly different shapes were designed for laying brick from different scaffold and building techniques, and he could list books on different techniques such as gouged brickwork, etc.

Apparently in certain parts of Europe, different types of woodworking are separate trades, such as turning, and cabinetry, with workers not necessarily being trained in both.

Meanwhile, certain trades, apparently require students to not only learn the techniques, but how to also make their own tools.

This sort of seems like a lube tech being a “professional trade”, with the tire shop being a “separate trade”, etc.

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

News Flash: then you fundamentally don't understand our society, how things work or don't here, what our kids are up against. And you REALLY don't understand Snap on.

The CEO has said publicly many times: His company is focused on providing the highest possible quality tools to workers who otherwise wouldn't have the cash to enter the trade. Not only is Snap on selling them tools at 0% interest, they are selling the poorest workers the BEST tools to stop any sort of underclass, discrimination, etc. Imagine a trade where the workers with the best quality tools were able to do the best work and work fastest, while the poorer kids were stuck in some weird underclass.

If you think about it from the point of view of the kids entering the trade, and try not to assume they are imbeciles, it makes sense what they're doing. Remember, their friends are going into debt in universities studying (financially) worthless majors.

Europe has a better system of trade schools (colleges) and a much better sense of the honor and dignity of workers. Our kids are really up against it.

FWIW, I have one in uni, one in college (nursing), and the third is a blue color worker printing labels for shampoo bottles.


Duh, just lead with that.

Lol CEOs care about share holders not customers. Also their biggest customers are the franchise operators not the end users.

You do realize that the vast majority of these tool routes are struggling because its nearly impossible to sell hand tools. You roll up to a shop and guess what.... everyone already owns tools so what do you sell them?? Hopefully scanners and replacements to lost tools because techs are not beating down your doors for tool sets. So where do you find techs that need tools?? Trade schools and offer them a "student discount" this way when they get to their first job they already have everything and skipped the franchise truck all together. Also once you own a SO tool box your more likely to buy SO tools to put in that box same goes for when you want to upgrade to a bigger box.

You do realize that SO is focusing on software nowadays with their scanners, Mitchell, Dealer FX, etc. There is far more money in this then peddling sockets that users buy once, things like Mitchell and dealer FX are monthly subscriptions which quickly dwarf the cost of that tool box!

 

[AEAdam]

Since I live on the other side of the Atlantic you are probably right.
But since OP initial question was quite general I thought I'd share my view from a different part of the world. Judging by the salty reaction however, this is apparently unwelcome.

Sorry then I wrote that too strongly. This is more stammtisch here. Everyone is welcome. For non German speakers, google stammtisch. You won't be disappointed.

Sounds to me like corporate PR ********.

Yeah, I get why you'd say that. And interesting. I know nothing about social classes in Germany. I lived in the UK and there are still some remnants of social class. Stick with my description for a second:

Many US car mechanics work on "flat rate" meaning the faster they work, the more they can get paid. They get paid by the job, not the hour. Snap on has focused on designing and producing tools for flat rate techs. Some tools are just plain thinner to fit places that frankly German tools, characteristically beefier, don't. It's about speed. Even the Snap on warranty system, tool distribution model, toolbox design are all influenced by this manner of work. Its why Snap on has 3 really good drive sizes, why each drive size has 3 depths, why wrenches are thin, why they put SO much energy into swivel sockets and offer (I don't know) several different styles of extensions.

If a kid came to work with inferior quality tools here in the US, struggled with them more, needed a pipe to turn his ratchet, or had to swap to breaker bars for stuff etc etc, he'd make less money, maybe get less work. If his tools damaged customer hardware, that also would impact him financially. For us as amateur mechanics, these aren't issues. (I argue, because I often have limited time for auto repair). But they are very real issues for young techs.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

I will never understand how people get into debt over something mundane as tools. It might be a different game 50 years ago, but today with so many mid range brands offering good quality for affordable prices, there is no excuse to do so. It's just irrational.


In Germany they don't even have an online store to order from and the only 'tool truck' I ever saw was a Sprinter Van which I drove by every morning before moving to another city.
I think this type of business model don't really work as good in Europe. There is just too much competition offering high quality stuff for reasonable prices and most tools are usually supplied by the employer anyway.

A lot of techs come out of high school or trade school with minimal-to-no tools and start at a shop where they are expected to have a bunch of stuff right away to do their jobs. So regardless of where that tech buys their tools, they are going to be in some debt just because they need a lot of stuff fast. Some shops provide tools but they aren’t great and some shops have guys that will loan tools but that gets old fast.

News Flash: then you fundamentally don't understand our society, how things work or don't here, what our kids are up against. And you REALLY don't understand Snap on.

The CEO has said publicly many times: His company is focused on providing the highest possible quality tools to workers who otherwise wouldn't have the cash to enter the trade. Not only is Snap on selling them tools at 0% interest, they are selling the poorest workers the BEST tools to stop any sort of underclass, discrimination, etc. Imagine a trade where the workers with the best quality tools were able to do the best work and work fastest, while the poorer kids were stuck in some weird underclass.

If you think about it from the point of view of the kids entering the trade, and try not to assume they are imbeciles, it makes sense what they're doing. Remember, their friends are going into debt in universities studying (financially) worthless majors.

Europe has a better system of trade schools (colleges) and a much better sense of the honor and dignity of workers. Our kids are really up against it.

FWIW, I have one in uni, one in college (nursing), and the third is a blue color worker printing labels for shampoo bottles.


Duh, just lead with that.

Ok, I just really want to emphasize to anyone and everyone that regardless of your degree it has been proven time and again that you will come out much better financially over your working life than any American without a degree, including tradies. That’s not to discourage anyone from the trades, but college is definitely still worth it. (For reference, I have several degrees and work in the trades because I’m a weirdo.)

 

[M.Jay]

Sorry then I wrote that too strongly. This is more stammtisch here. Everyone is welcome. For non German speakers, google stammtisch. You won't be disappointed.

Don't worry, I didn't take it personally. I was just wondering where this tone suddenly came from.

Many US car mechanics work on "flat rate" meaning the faster they work, the more they can get paid. They get paid by the job, not the hour. Snap on has focused on designing and producing tools for flat rate techs. Some tools are just plain thinner to fit places that frankly German tools, characteristically beefier, don't. It's about speed. Even the Snap on warranty system, tool distribution model, toolbox design are all influenced by this manner of work. Its why Snap on has 3 really good drive sizes, why each drive size has 3 depths, why wrenches are thin, why they put SO much energy into swivel sockets and offer (I don't know) several different styles of extensions.

If a kid came to work with inferior quality tools here in the US, struggled with them more, needed a pipe to turn his ratchet, or had to swap to breaker bars for stuff etc etc, he'd make less money, maybe get less work. If his tools damaged customer hardware, that also would impact him financially. For us as amateur mechanics, these aren't issues. (I argue, because I often have limited time for auto repair). But they are very real issues for young techs.

Thank you for the explanation. I completely understand what you're getting at, but the question still remains: Does one really need Snap-On tools right at the start of the career? Wouldn't it be financially wiser to start with mid range stuff and then upgrade as you go instead of getting deep into debt?

 

[mikedodge]

Thank you for the explanation. I completely understand what you're getting at, but the question still remains: Does one really need Snap-On tools right at the start of the career? Wouldn't it be financially wiser to start with mid range stuff and then upgrade as you go instead of getting deep into debt?

Quickest answer no and yes.

As far as speed to get stuff done that's pushing it too. That's someone trying to justify why they've loaded up with whatever brand of tool they prefer. Specialized tools make things go quicker, having the tool that fits the space you're working in helps things go faster but they don't have to say Snap On on them to accomplish that.

 

[AEAdam]

Don't worry, I didn't take it personally. I was just wondering where this tone suddenly came from.


Thank you for the explanation. I completely understand what you're getting at, but the question still remains: Does one really need Snap-On tools right at the start of the career? Wouldn't it be financially wiser to start with mid range stuff and then upgrade as you go instead of getting deep into debt?

If you are asking, could you physically do the job with inexpensive tools, the answer is yes. YES!

But you would need the start-up capital (money) to buy those tools. And what I consider a "basic set of automotive repair tools" could easily cost thousands even from a discount tool supplier. The days are gone when you could fix anything with a bucket of rusty wrenches and flat head screwdriver. Many GJ members like to spin that yarn. I've worked on cars whose oil drain plugs are 17mm Allens. Who even has a 17mm Allen starting out? It's a necessary tool. And we still have cars with SAE sized components. And if you are doing heavy equipment like @Hakeem, you need full sets of both metric and inches as well as a large range of sizes (which gets expensive).

So this comes up from time to time and it sounds to Maria Antoinette: "The peasants are starving, they have no bread, what shall we do?" "Let them eat cake!". "Buy value tools" is good advice if the person has the money.

Otherwise:
Snap on offers students in tech schools 50% off on all the basic tools. You can also get a much discounted toolbox. You then pay them back weekly over a couple years interest free. So kids can start with 0 money. They can get federal aid to go to tech school, and get essentially free tools from Snap on.

These kids aren't imbeciles. They know debt is bad. Many start out with very bare bones sets of tools. The weekly visit to collect payments, replace anything worn or broken, and offer additional tools to buy is pretty convenient for them. It's not dumb. And they get REALLY nice tools that will seriously last their entire careers.

I've said many times, and no one likes to hear it: At 1/2 off, there's literally no way for these kids to lose. They can and do change their minds and sell off their tools, usually at a profit but at least without losing money. It happens all the time. Some of them buy tools on discount and instantly sell them at a profit. It's possible the profit would pay for cheaper tools. I wouldn't be surprised if kids did that.

Maybe this is why Snap on is the default standard. Maybe it's nothing more than the tech school discount. I've never seen an ad for Snap on. Not sure what marketing others have mentioned. Maybe its just the discount program.

 

[neophyte]

A lot of techs come out of high school or trade school with minimal-to-no tools and start at a shop where they are expected to have a bunch of stuff right away to do their jobs. So regardless of where that tech buys their tools, they are going to be in some debt just because they need a lot of stuff fast. Some shops provide tools but they aren’t great and some shops have guys that will loan tools but that gets old fast.

Ok, I just really want to emphasize to anyone and everyone that regardless of your degree it has been proven time and again that you will come out much better financially over your working life than any American without a degree, including tradies. That’s not to discourage anyone from the trades, but college is definitely still worth it. (For reference, I have several degrees and work in the trades because I’m a weirdo.)

I think some youtuber did the math on that, and the results were basically around even once you deduct student loans plus interest, and significantly negative if for some reason or other a person took out student loans, but could not complete their degree program.
The major winners were the small percentage of people going to top university programs, or wealthy people who just used the student loans to pay for college, while already having the money to pay, who could then bank the fees in investments, until the loans needed to be repaid, at which point they could repay the loans without interest.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

Just curious, how did Snap On become the standard that all others are compared to? Was it cost? I have Snap On, Proto, Mac tools. I prefer Proto and Mac over Snap On.

Off topic Wondered if Stihls gas chainsaws and maybe backpack blowers are standards as well.

 

[M635_Guy]

Oh please. So much cultural identity wrapped up with Snap on in GJ. Put price aside for a second:

Snap on is the yardstick for hand tools (+) because they are the biggest hand tool manufacturer in the world. They dwarf some of our favorites. Last I looked they were a $5B/yr company with strong profit margins. Unlike other US 20th c tool manufacturers, Snap on continuously innovated or bought innovative designs/companies, resulting in the revolutionizing many of the tool forms we all use. They have an enormous library of patents, which their 20th c competitors never had.

In objective testing, Snap on tools dominated for decades. Only recently has there been any serious competition for strength, quality etc, which I think is exactly where the OP is coming from. Viewed from a lens encompassing only the last few years, Snap on is "one of" the top brands. Now some of that has to do with tool manufacturers designing and building for the tests. Example: A thicker wrench will almost always be stronger than a thinner wrench. Snap on defaults to the smallest possible profiles, thinnest, shallowest sockets, yet still retaining industry leading or near industry leading strength.

When you look at marketshare, Snap on has a broad international market, consisting of auto mechanics, and industry alike.

In terms of GJ tool reviews, Snap on is literally the biggest kid on the block, un-ignorable in any tool comparison. If I could wave a magic wand and remove price, my guess is, most of you would have nothing but Snap on. There are only a few products in their line up where one could say objectively, another manufacturer's tool is better.

Take size and market share out of the equation for a minute: In terms of utility and quality alone, I think Koken is notable. They are very much like Snap on in terms of curiosity and continuous innovation. They just have nowhere near the catalog size, marketshare, distribution network etc. Take all that away, Koken is producing innovative hand tool technologies (like wobble plus) that other manufacturers will eventually copy if they haven't already. I think for specific tools, sockets maybe, Koken would be an excellent choice as a yardstick.

Here's my personal beef: Here on GJ, people tend to advocate solely for value. "Brand *** is good enough. It turned the bolt and that's all that's needed". Which is fine, but it dominates absolutely every thread here. One problem with only talking about tools in terms of value is that the value changes over time. The other problem with value is that it's specific to that individual's experience. So what presents as good value to one person, based on their real world experiences, could be absolutely rubbish for someone else. Just saw @MaverickDMD 's post above. There it is!

Dude - I love how you keep quoting things like "objective testing" and never cite any sources.

There was a time when nobody could beat Ferrari. Then Ford did it. And now lots of people compete for the top, and plenty of people are awfully competitive, to the point where it's often the driver more than the car. It's called progress. As that kind of stuff trickled down to the real world, and even 'value' offerings wound up competing with credibility. That's happened to Snap On. There's no shame in it, and nothing wrong with it.

 

[Cruzan80]

I've said many times, and no one likes to hear it: At 1/2 off, there's literally no way for these kids to lose.

No, many times people have pointed out that there are better ways of doing it than SO's student program, and lots of those kids do actually lose...

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

No, many times people have pointed out that there are better ways of doing it than SO's student program, and lots of those kids do actually lose...

Even with the discount the Icon set of 3/8 deep sockets is 1/5th the price of SO....

 

[M635_Guy]

Not only is Snap on selling them tools at 0% interest, they are selling the poorest workers the BEST tools to stop any sort of underclass, discrimination, etc.

I'm sorry - that's just silly, rose-colored wrapping. The interest is baked into the (significant) price of the tools. They are not doing anything more than offering a spoonful of sugar to a lot of people who shouldn't take on that kind of debt. It's a tool targeted more at their truck franchisees than the technicians: if they didn't have it, the trucks wouldn't be able to move the volume necessary to make the whole thing work.

 

[M635_Guy]

Does one really need Snap-On tools right at the start of the career?

In the modern world, definitely not.

Wouldn't it be financially wiser to start with mid range stuff and then upgrade as you go instead of getting deep into debt?

Absolutely.

 

[Cruzan80]

Otherwise:
Snap on offers students in tech schools 50% off on all the basic tools. You can also get a much discounted toolbox. You then pay them back weekly over a couple years interest free. So kids can start with 0 money. They can get federal aid to go to tech school, and get essentially free tools from Snap on.

I am pretty sure you are confusing two separate issues. The drivers extend credit at 0% interest to people on their route. Nothing I can find online mentions the SEP program being at 0% interest, which is what you are saying (especially toolboxes). In the last thread you brought this up, you had mentioned the scenario of buying SEP tools for immediate resale, thereby minimizing the out-of-pocket time and cost.

Either way, the SEP program is designed to get people in the habit of using their specific stuff, not out of the goodness of their heart, anti-discriminatory, etc.

 

[AEAdam]

I am pretty sure you are confusing two separate issues. The drivers extend credit at 0% interest to people on their route. Nothing I can find online mentions the SEP program being at 0% interest, which is what you are saying (especially toolboxes). In the last thread you brought this up, you had mentioned the scenario of buying SEP tools for immediate resale, thereby minimizing the out-of-pocket time and cost.

Either way, the SEP program is designed to get people in the habit of using their specific stuff, not out of the goodness of their heart, anti-discriminatory, etc.

I guess I don’t know because I haven’t done it myself. Pretty sure the SEP can work 2 ways. Through corporate or through your local rep. I believe the latter can offer financing, exactly as I’ve suggested. But I have no first hand experience.

SEP aside, when I was on a route years ago, I saw techs buy stuff on special and insta sell it. I know because I bought some of it. It was kinda shady, to be honest. My roll cart was cheap because the original owner got it on SEP. One driver I had would do deals with guys when corporate offered BOGO deals. I bought some tools like that too.

Because of my work, I’ve had access to regular reps as well as industrial reps, including specialists. But all my understanding of the SEP is second or third hand.

 

[Cruzan80]

From my understanding, they have to go thru the SEP representative for the school. So no 0% financing going on there. There is virtually no benefit to the driver to go thru all the extra work.

Not saying people don't buy stuff on sale to resell. But as was stated before, either they need the tools to work, or they can have cash, but not both. Buying and splitting a BOGO doesnt make them the "standard" in the industry, just a good deal. The same way that buying deals with any cordless BOGO and splitting them up works.

Again, you are looking at it thru one specific lens, and saying it obviously makes them the best for students. You kept arguing the same thing last thread. Student programs also exist for Mac, Tekton and others. Financially, it doesnt make sense for someone who is not sure to heavily invest in Snap-On. The first part I quoted ("There is no way to lose @ 1/2 off") simply isn't true.

None of this means that SO is "the standard", per the OPs question.

 

[Farmall450]

As a kid in the forties

This is what I came here to say. I think SO got to the top by being consistently good.

No real falters, huge missteps (e.g. shipping everything overseas or otherwise devaluing their brand) etc in all these years.

 

[Farmall450]

Off topic Wondered if Stihls gas chainsaws and maybe backpack blowers are standards as well.

Probably in Germany and America. Granted, ECHO makes a more powerful backpack blower

 

[liliysdad]

I think SO got to the top by being consistently good.

No real falters, huge missteps (e.g. shipping everything overseas or otherwise devaluing their brand) etc in all these years.

Pretty simple.

 

[mngundog]

.....
Many of the "lower/budget" wrenches or sockets have more "clearance" in the drive surfaces than do Snap On...which results in a, at a minimum, damaged fastener...often ruining the fastener.
.......

The part of this argument that always been odd, is how economy wrenches supposedly always get it wrong, but somehow every hardware company in the world is able to pump out 10 cent nuts and bolts by the hundreds of millions to exact Snap-on specs.

 

[Gmonkee]

Asain cars through the 90's to early 2000ish vintage had distinctly different fasteners than the Mexican made German cars.
Korean cars in particular with a slight difference that it helped to fully seat the socket before pulling on it.

It's an assembly line thing. Make them fast and consistently good.

I based my wrench choices on what fit everything as best as possible, except the socket set was better for the European stuff than the Asian.
By a tiny margin.

In the yellow tractors it was like everything fit perfectly. I could use anything safely.

 

[MaverickDMD]

My shop foreman at KIA was a former NASCAR mechanic and had a Snap-On roll cab as wide as his bay. It was amazing and he told me if you ever need anything for my work, come and get it. And remember to put it back. He wore a crisp white long sleave shirt every day, had a clean flat top haircut. He was my mentor in this crazy world and I was 47.
Zim

So what? What you actually placed value on was not having to buy any of the tools that you used, not the high price tag Snap on has compared with the lower priced and equally "valuable" tools. Value is in layman's terms "bang for your buck".

 

[willf650]

Yeah, HF has been creeping into the market pretty well recently. I’ve seen a ton of corporate machine repair techs rocking all Pittsburgh and Icon tools. When you are responsible for your tools and you’re carrying/traveling with them, the tool trucks just aren’t as relevant to you.

Look this is GJ. Most of us are here because we have a thing for cars, bikes, scooters, motorcycles, and all other mechanical kinds of things. Of course Snap-on would be a benchmark to hold everything to because that brand is dominant in those industries. I’d say MAC would be right there too if it weren’t for the buyouts and problems they have had. But mechanics aren’t the end all be all in the trades. It’s hard to say a tool brand is the big thing if 80% of the trades don’t even consider Snap-on in their purchases.

I was going to say something similar. I work in an industrial and construction setting and I've probably seen someone using Snap On tools 6 times in 30+ years in the trades. I worked with a guy using some Snap On sockets out of his beer bucket this year and commented on them. He bought them at a yardsale. Guys working out of bags, buckets and gang boxes is a different environment.

Armstrong, Proto, Williams and Craftsman have more of a presence here as far as wrenches and sockets but its only with the older guys at this point. Anything goes and you will see Westward and Pittsburgh in the market now just as much. More so when tools are bought personally and not as company purchase. Company purchased tools come through an industrial supply chain and purchased via a PO# and open account. What brands they carry are what you get.

 

[zimman]

So what? What you actually placed value on was not having to buy any of the tools that you used, not the high price tag Snap on has compared with the lower priced and equally "valuable" tools. Value is in layman's terms "bang for your buck".

I'm telling a story dude. I had my own tools. Tone it down.
Zim

 

[AEAdam]

From my understanding, they have to go thru the SEP representative for the school. So no 0% financing going on there. There is virtually no benefit to the driver to go thru all the extra work.

Not saying people don't buy stuff on sale to resell. But as was stated before, either they need the tools to work, or they can have cash, but not both. Buying and splitting a BOGO doesnt make them the "standard" in the industry, just a good deal. The same way that buying deals with any cordless BOGO and splitting them up works.

Again, you are looking at it thru one specific lens, and saying it obviously makes them the best for students. You kept arguing the same thing last thread. Student programs also exist for Mac, Tekton and others. Financially, it doesnt make sense for someone who is not sure to heavily invest in Snap-On. The first part I quoted ("There is no way to lose @ 1/2 off") simply isn't true.

None of this means that SO is "the standard", per the OPs question.

Look. All of this was just my attempt to respond to the many many people (over time) who have said “going into debt to buy tools is dumb. Young techs should just buy Pittsburgh, it works fine, I use it to fix…..”

I’m just trying to explain potential reasons why they do it, and why it CAN make sense. That's all. It's all about seeing something from a different point of view, which is what I hope the internet is all about. At the end of the day, there are always multiple right and wrong answers. It's about how we make it work for us that makes the difference.

 

[M635_Guy]

None of this means that SO is "the standard", per the OPs question.

I don't think it's unfair to call Snap On the "standard" in more than one way - they have the in-shop market share (I don't have data to say that 100%, but seems a very safe assumption), they are extremely high quality and in terms of performance are the top or close to it. None of that is driven by hard data, but I think are all safe enough to stipulate for this discussion.

Where I diverge from the narrative is that if you're a working pro, Snap On is necessary to your job. That might be been fairly accurate 30+ years ago, but in today's world definitely not the case. While pointing at YouTube videos doesn't constitute statistically-significant testing, in the aggregate I think there would be evidence if brands like Icon weren't up to professional-level use. The information we can get indicates they are up to the task, and for a fraction of the price - 1/5 to 1/3 the price. I have a fair bit of Icon, and have zero doubt my tools would work just fine in the hands of a pro. Icon (and other brands like it, e.g. Carlyle, etc) don't have the portfolio of specialty tools that Snap On does, and in some cases like flare wrenches they appear to have meaningfully better performance, so there are reasons to have Snap On. But these days those are more the exceptions than the rule. And while Snap On boxes are nice, they're not close to worth the money - the "investment" argument there doesn't hold up better than anywhere else.

If it were just a price argument, I'd agree that it's not right discussion here. But along with the price is most-often a significantly-capable tool that performs at a level close enough to the SO that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the real world, and doesn't put a young person in significant debt with a payment plan.

Lastly, I'm not arguing that good tools doesn't enable good work. One of the reasons I have so much Icon stuff is I've run into the momentum-killer that comes from tools that aren't doing the job well, so if something like that happens and I'm likely to do it again I get a tool that's better. But owning a fair bit of SO as well, I can't say any of them have outperformed any of their Icon brothers in a meaningful way.

 

[Cruzan80]

I've said many times, and no one likes to hear it: At 1/2 off, there's literally no way for these kids to lose.

m just trying to explain potential reasons why they do it, and why it CAN make sense.

These two statements are not the same. I started replying when you said the first statement, and pointed out where it was wrong. Not saying young techs should be banned from buying SO, but you are assuming a large amount to get to "can't lose".

Not saying you can't have a different view, but several times, you have come in saying "This is THE TRUTH! Why won't anyone listen?". You are allowed to have your viewpoint, but you keep acting surprised when the rest of us don't immediately accept all the conditionals you put on it to get there.

Your argument keeps reading like someone who bought a house in the 70-80's and is telling young techs that if they just skip the Starbucks, they can buy a house too.

 

[Cruzan80]

I don't think it's unfair to call Snap On the "standard" in more than one way - they have the in-shop market share (I don't have data to say that 100%, but seems a very safe assumption), they are extremely high quality and in terms of performance are the top or close to it. None of that is driven by hard data, but I think are all safe enough to stipulate for this discussion.

The quote of mine that you had above this was simply in context of "Having a student program to get you going does not imply you are an industry standard." Others are doing the same, and my WAG would be that it depends in the relationship each company built with the specific school on which get recommended more.

In general, I am at least leaning in the same direction as the rest of your post.

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

Your argument keeps reading like someone who bought a house in the 70-80's and is telling young techs that if they just skip the Starbucks, they can buy a house too.

Its not Starbucks nowadays its vape, OnlyFans, and Duramax payments making them broke!

 

[dchawk81]

It's about time we had another one of these threads because it's been a minute since I've said it's about time we had another one of these threads.

 

[AEAdam]

Your argument keeps reading like someone who bought a house in the 70-80's and is telling young techs that if they just skip the Starbucks, they can buy a house too.

Interesting. I kinda feel like it's the opposite. People keep saying just buy *** "starter tools". With what money? What if they have no money? So opposite if that makes sense.

Regarding the core of our disagreement, "they can't lose" yeah I guess anyone can lose. For me, it's as simple as looking at Snap on retail pricing and looking at SEP discounts (which tend to be 50% off) then looking at eBay completed listings. That's why I'm so certain of my claim. But whatever. This is all off topic. Lifting: I appreciate you thinking about what I wrote.

 

[dchawk81]

A really good friend of mine is a Granger rep here in the DFW and he has told me HF has stolen most of his industrial tool/tool box business. He said he has to focus on pushing tools HF doesn’t offer like Milwaukee everything.

That must be tough with Milwaukee being available at every Home Depot and many farm stores.

I have at least 3 sources for Milwaukee in a 15 mile radius. One of them is half a mile away.

 

[Cruzan80]

Interesting. I kinda feel like it's the opposite. People keep saying just buy *** "starter tools". With what money? What if they have no money? So opposite if that makes sense.

I guess this is where we are different ends of the spectrum. You can't buy SEP tools without money loaned either (no 0% driver financing for those). The money needs to come from somewhere. If they legit "have no money", there are bigger problems at work here, and truck payments are not the answer.

So if they have to get money loaned, I would want less loaned, therefore less interest paid, hence cheaper tools that still are "good enough", instead of SnapOn at a price premium (even with the SEP program).

The argument you are making about "still ahead" after reselling only really applies if they sell the tools purchased from the SEP program, which either means they aren't still wrenching, or they are using non SO tools (others use what are they selling?). They don't get to repeat buy the same tools over and over.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

nowadays its vape, OnlyFans, and Duramax payments making them broke!

Trooth!

It's about time we had another one of these threads because it's been a minute since I've said it's about time we had another one of these threads.

Snerk.

As the nerdy vintage guy, I have never understood why people on either side of this seemingly never-ending running battle have so much emotional investment in it. Whether the OP was asking a genuine question naive to the history of the now cliche debate or whether he was muckraking, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised how it quickly devolved into the same old argument. I usually only swoop in with myth-busting historical details and read long enough to know it still exists, like a festering finger pinch wound that never heals, and bug out before the proverbial vituperative wrenches start flying.

Objectively, it really seems like you'd have to have your head in the sand to even try to depict a landscape without Snap-on in a lofty reputational perch. On the other hand, you'd have to be just as willfully unreasonable to not recognize that more inexpensive equivalents are available without sacrificing much, if anything, in terms of performance in many use cases, circumstances, and tolerances.

The problem is usually the offensive polar extremes, as amply illustrated by these representative bits offered by AEAdam and M635_Guy to express them....

"...if you're a working pro, Snap On is necessary to your job..."

...and this...

"...going into debt to buy tools is dumb. Young techs should just buy Pittsburgh, it works fine…..”

There's room for a broad swath of agreement in between.

 

[Cruzan80]

The problem is usually the offensive polar extremes, as amply illustrated by these representative bits offered by AEAdam and M635_Guy to express them....

Just to be clear, both of them held the opposite viewpoint of what was quoted. They do represent both sides of the argument, but opposite corners from how I read your post.

my attempt to respond to the many many people (over time) who have said “going into debt to buy tools is dumb.

Where I diverge from the narrative is that if you're a working pro,

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Just to be clear, both of them held the opposite viewpoint of what was quoted.

Yes, each of them expressing the other trigger. Maybe I'm wrong, not reading enough of their posts outside this thread to know, but I don't think either one is espousing the most extreme viewpoints. In other words, I don't think AEAdam is saying, 'Any serious, self-respecting professional mechanic should only be using Snap-on.' And I don't think M365_Guy is saying, 'All junior mechanics starting out in debt when they can be using Icon or Pittsburgh tools are fools.'

 

[Aaron_W]

I don't think the effect of marketing can be overlooked, and that is so much more than Super Bowl commercials. Trade magazines, youtubers, education, and student discounts can be very successful which is why you see Snap On, Miller, Lincoln and even Harbor Freight use these heavily.

I think some youtuber did the math on that, and the results were basically around even once you deduct student loans plus interest, and significantly negative if for some reason or other a person took out student loans, but could not complete their degree program.
The major winners were the small percentage of people going to top university programs, or wealthy people who just used the student loans to pay for college, while already having the money to pay, who could then bank the fees in investments, until the loans needed to be repaid, at which point they could repay the loans without interest.

Yes, I've seen some similar information. The silver spoon club skews the numbers heavily. When they factor in family wealth / connections the difference between a college degree and no degree for normies the distance closes considerably. College certainly helps, but being born into wealth and power helps more.

This is what I came here to say. I think SO got to the top by being consistently good.

No real falters, huge missteps (e.g. shipping everything overseas or otherwise devaluing their brand) etc in all these years.

Sticking with what you know and are good at is a decent plan. It is amazing how many one time industry leaders have lost everything after diversifying and losing site of the core business. There are success stories, but I've read far more company histories where that is the last chapter.

 

[neophyte]

I don't think it's unfair to call Snap On the "standard" in more than one way - they have the in-shop market share (I don't have data to say that 100%, but seems a very safe assumption), they are extremely high quality and in terms of performance are the top or close to it. None of that is driven by hard data, but I think are all safe enough to stipulate for this discussion.

Where I diverge from the narrative is that if you're a working pro, Snap On is necessary to your job. That might be been fairly accurate 30+ years ago, but in today's world definitely not the case. While pointing at YouTube videos doesn't constitute statistically-significant testing, in the aggregate I think there would be evidence if brands like Icon weren't up to professional-level use. The information we can get indicates they are up to the task, and for a fraction of the price - 1/5 to 1/3 the price. I have a fair bit of Icon, and have zero doubt my tools would work just fine in the hands of a pro. Icon (and other brands like it, e.g. Carlyle, etc) don't have the portfolio of specialty tools that Snap On does, and in some cases like flare wrenches they appear to have meaningfully better performance, so there are reasons to have Snap On. But these days those are more the exceptions than the rule. And while Snap On boxes are nice, they're not close to worth the money - the "investment" argument there doesn't hold up better than anywhere else.

If it were just a price argument, I'd agree that it's not right discussion here. But along with the price is most-often a significantly-capable tool that performs at a level close enough to the SO that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the real world, and doesn't put a young person in significant debt with a payment plan.

Lastly, I'm not arguing that good tools doesn't enable good work. One of the reasons I have so much Icon stuff is I've run into the momentum-killer that comes from tools that aren't doing the job well, so if something like that happens and I'm likely to do it again I get a tool that's better. But owning a fair bit of SO as well, I can't say any of them have outperformed any of their Icon brothers in a meaningful way.

I’m fairly certain that 30 years ago there were plenty of high quality professional brands, that were not Snap-On, since that is when I started buying tools.
There almost certainly were other high quality brands, 40, 50, 60, and 70 years ago as well, because I own vintage tools from those eras, and have seen scans of the catalogs, although I wasn’t alive at the time.
I own pliers from 100 years ago, that were nicer made than Snap-On pliers I have seen, although the metallurgy was likely not as good, although there are plenty of surviving pairs of pliers from the brand that seem perfectly usable.
There might have been specialty tools that were only available from Snap-On, or maybe a few other suppliers, but that is still routinely the case, for both US and European cars, and even for things like iPhones, where I think Wiha was one of the only “high quality” screwdriver suppliers for some specialty driver, because Apple techs supposedly used Wiha screwdrivers.