Trenching to a depth of 48" for water lines

[pcmeiners]

Need to excavate for a well water line in soil with a fair amount of small rocks in moist soil to a 48" depth, also plan on placing a water line into the front yard (100 feet).
Question is do I rent a Dingo with a carbide trencher (shown below) or a backhoe with an 8" or 12" bucket. An 8" bucketed backhoe would be the most useful, but not sure I would have an issue with soil sticking in the bucket, 12" should be less of an issue with this. The other option is renting a heavy duty trencher but this will be a lot more work especially digging out by the well casing to get a pitiless adapter installed (hole 5'x3'x3'). The backhoe would also come in handy for back filling and digging holes for tree planting. Main concern with the backhoe with an 8" or 12" bucket is the soil not releasing.....,,,,. Which way to go on this ?

 

[Bert_]

Never ran one of those trenchers.

I can say a ditch witch with a 4' trencher has no problems with fist sized rocks, I can usually get the trencher to pull a 6-7" rock if you slow down the chain and get it to grab it.

 

[Firebrick43]

The longest arm on a dingo trencher is 48". The is total length and it wont dig at that depth, arm needs to be at an angle. So if you do rent a trencher you needs something bigger like a ride on ditchwitch or vermeer.

I would want a trencher if the soil is rock free. If there is bigger rocks or turns I would want an excavator. I don't play with 8" buckets here in our clay, 12" works if you scratch the soil with the teeth and then load. Taking one big scoop is a surefire way to be using a spud bar.

 

[pcmeiners]

Technically I only need 42" for the frosty line here, the only place I need the 48" depth is for the pitiless adapter install.

 

[larry4406]

I vote for a mini-x with a 12" bucket.

 

[manwithtools]

I vote for a mini-x with a 12" bucket.

Agreed, mini-x with a 12" bucket is made for this work.

 

[Firebrick43]

We don't have to bury gas lines below depth so everyday we use a CX23.

For bigger jobs that we have to bury deep for one reason or anther or have to go 200' or more another branch has an RT45 will technically dig to 52" but even it is slow to clear the trench at full depth. Some of the ride on trenchers have a little backhoe on the other end, Not nearly as handy as a mini ex but the combo of trencher plus that for getting next to a foundation or your well rock free (large) soils is great.

If you do go with a mini also realize that the max digging depth in the specs is also maddening if you actually try to dig a trench at that depth. You need one that can hit at least 6' to be effective

 

[pcmeiners]

The rt45 is a kick *** trencher, they go for a premium rental fee around here, nice though. Looks like a backhoe can be had at a decent rental price around here . When I get done my lawn will have the rustic war-torn look, it was looking great until my well went dry and a 30 ton drilling machine went over it...... then again it is far better to have a first world issue then a third world issue .

 

[larry4406]

A back hoe is huge compared to a mini-x.

Study your pathway carefully and be 200% convinced you can maneuver it where you need to be. Can you drive your full size truck the entire pathway including turning around and backing up?

The mini’s ability to rotate 360 degrees is unmatched.

At the day job, the well guys all use mini’s. I think they know better. Even our plumbers use mini’s for water service only jobs and shallow sewers. Septic guys also use mini’s but with a 24” bucket.

When deep sewers are involved (8-10’), the plumbers go with a back hoe and then make an absolute mess of the site turning it around, knocking over silt fence, etc.

I cringe when I see a back hoe on the site. They are #1 mess maker; that and the framer's pettibone!

 

[pcmeiners]

Just double checked clearances in the yard, I should have no issues maneuvering any machines out there.
As to a minx or backhoe, there are no major obstructions and the area of most digging is already a mess from the well equipment.

Thank guys for the information.

 

[Dig Doug]

Just make sure you run more than one pipe !

ya know as a Back up !

You don’t want to do this twice !

mini X would be my choice ! Easy to haul if you have a 3/4 ton truck and no delivery fee !

 

[larry_g]

also plan on placing a water line into the front yard (100 feet).

If this line is for irrigation or other yard maintenance then you can bury it shallow and drain it during the winter months. That is what I did for all of my outside watering lines. I would also suggest that you get a bid or two to have the lines installed. I've found that by the time I rent equipment, buy the parts and give up all the time that hiring somethings done can be worth the investment. Years ago when I was working I could work an overtime shift in an airconditioned building and earn enough to pay for that kind of work.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[larry4406]

When running the well line to the house, now is the time to think about a yard hydrant should you have a use for one.

My last house I installed a tee in the line to the house, a curb box, and an Iowa yard hydrant with gravel bed for the drain.

 

[AEAdam]

I would give a thought to back filling, when thinking about the machine. Is the job you want only digging? How will you back fill? Will you grade later?

I had this done in rocky soil in PA and it was a back hoe that did it. We trenched in electric in the front and water and ethernet in the back. Ethernet drives my security cameras. We dug the trench, then put down “millings”. That was back hoe and hand labor with hoes and shovels. Then you can’t drop rocky dirt on top of those lines. You need clean fill for that.

Point is, if you are DIYing this, please think all the way through this job. Try not to just focus on step one. This is the lesson I’ve learned building my own house. I’m always thinking about how what I’m doing now impacts 5 steps, or sometimes 5 or 15 yrs, in the future.

 

[svtride]

Need to excavate for a well water line in soil with a fair amount of small rocks in moist soil to a 48" depth, also plan on placing a water line into the front yard (100 feet).
Question is do I rent a Dingo with a carbide trencher (shown below) or a backhoe with an 8" or 12" bucket. An 8" bucketed backhoe would be the most useful, but not sure I would have an issue with soil sticking in the bucket, 12" should be less of an issue with this. The other option is renting a heavy duty trencher but this will be a lot more work especially digging out by the well casing to get a pitiless adapter installed (hole 5'x3'x3'). The backhoe would also come in handy for back filling and digging holes for tree planting. Main concern with the backhoe with an 8" or 12" bucket is the soil not releasing.....,,,,. Which way to go on this ?

I did water and gas many years ago in sandy soil with trencher, pretty quick…had to work fast as sandy soil dried it wanted to self backfill. Water went to 48” and gas a bit shallower, if I recall.

 

[AEAdam]

Years ago when I was working I could work an overtime shift in an airconditioned building and earn enough to pay for that kind of work.

lg
no neat sig line

Out here I think those days are gone. You know, I’m at the top of my field and these guys charge many times more than I make. I had a concrete cutting 2 man crew in that charged $3000/day.

Probably 8 yrs ago, when I trenched in electric, I paid to move their equipment, $250 each way, then around $1000 for 4 hours of machine and operator.

There are jobs I can’t or won’t do, so I’m still hiring some times but very very rarely. They are that expensive.

When running the well line to the house, now is the time to think about a yard hydrant should you have a use for one.

My last house I installed a tee in the line to the house, a curb box, and an Iowa yard hydrant with gravel bed for the drain.

I‘ve been toying with this idea. I ran a 1” water line to my shop because I wanted a bathroom in it, but it’s just too small for that. How do you drain a hydrant? Water line comes from the basement of the house. Do you drain The whole line? Pretty sure that water line is 3-4’ deep.

 

[Junkman]

The yard hydrant has a valve that opens to drain the vertical pipe when you close it. That is the reason for the stone at the bottom of the hydrant.
I am in Northeast CT, and my water line is at 36," and it has never frozen. Our problem is getting through the ledge and the big boulders that the glaciers dropped here. I once saw a single boulder that was larger than a small car. They were installing natural gas lines along the side of the road, and when they came upon this boulder, they dug all around it, and then they lifted it out of the ground with a large crane. Being in a residential area with lots of homes, they couldn't blast it apart on site. Then they brought in a low-boy trailer, loaded it onto the trailer, and took it to a large field to break it up.

 

[pcmeiners]

mini X would be my choice ! Easy to haul if you have a 3/4 ton truck and no delivery fee !

No minx hauled in a pickup could possibly dig through the rock fill (small rocks) the previous owner used, also large tree roots are a likely issue. Likely I will rent a large backhoe, the small "toy" bucketed machines will not do it. Sure would be nice if I had sand fill.

"Try not to just focus on step one"

Never do, was a contractor for years, if you did not build with detailed thought you would loose your shirt.

The yard hydrant has a valve that opens to drain the vertical pipe when you close it.

Have a hydrant and 100 feet of poly for it. I do want to bury it 42" down, not about to drain it every season.

 

[manwithtools]

No minx hauled in a pickup could possibly dig through the rock fill (small rocks) the previous owner used, also large tree roots are a likely issue.

He did not imply the the mini-x would fit in the back of a 3/4 ton pickup. He was referring to hauling (towing) the mini=x. Most rental places provide trailers with machines up to 4 tons or so. A 4 ton mini-x will surprise you with what they can do. Far nicer and faster to operate than a TLB.

Combined weight of machine and trailer is 10k lbs+/-, so easily towed by a 3/4 ton truck.

 

[pcmeiners]

He did not imply the the mini-x would fit in the back of a 3/4 ton pickup. He was referring to hauling (towing) the mini=x

Aware a powerful minx is not going to transport in a pickup. Also aware a minix unless it is the biggest made is not going to dig ground loaded with small rocks, as is I expect slow going with any machine I rent. Around here I will have a machine delivered, around $60 each way

 

[manwithtools]

Also aware a minix unless it is the biggest made is not going to dig ground loaded with small rocks, as is I expect slow going with any machine I rent.

I'm not sure how you can say this about mini-x's. It sounds like you have never operated one or watched one in operation. Rocky ground is no challenge, especially small rock. Big rocks can be handled too, just depends on the machine and the operator. An 9k -11.5k would out dig all but the biggest TLB. You seem to have your mind made up though, good luck to you.

 

[mike93lx]

Also aware a minix unless it is the biggest made is not going to dig ground loaded with small rocks

That is absolutely absurd

 

[Firebrick43]

I grew up with a 530 and then a 580 case plus some big 200 size excavators and have some hours on a recent 420 Cat

The last time I rented a mini for my septic and about 600’ of drain line I rented a bobcat E40 which is 40 hp.

It without a doubt would out dig any 80hp TLB by a far margin, easier to close the trench with its blade, and less worry about collapsing the trench to to lower ground pressure.

I think even the 25hp 303 cat I rented before that would out dig a 80 hp TLB.

The only place I see TLB holding on is tile repair. Not because it’s digging but because Minis are so slow crossing fields and the fact that you need to trailer them to the field instead of driving the TLB down the road.

 

[larry4406]

What is this “TLB” acronym?

 

[Steel_Rain]

What is this “TLB” acronym?

Tractor-Loader-Backhoe

 

[bassJAM]

This was 25 years ago but I ran a water line 450 ft when my parents built their house. We used a ride-on ditch witch for everything except right up against the house, where we used a mini x to dig out room to work. Those chain driven trenchers would make short work of 100ft, and the large one we used had a blade in the front too fill the line back in. A mini x would depend on your skill level how quickly you get it done.

 

[Zewnten]

Are you a proficient hoe operator? Based on this thread Im guessing no. Thats ok, but digging a trench is going to be very slow for you using a hoe.

Rent the ride on trencher and get a shovel for the last bit so you don't accidentally hit anything trying to get just that little bit more dirt dug out.

 

[Renegade1LI]

I wouldn't hesitate to dig that with the back hoe on my tractor, may take a little longer. Almost any mini will dig that with ease, get something like a cat 303 you'll blow through it, it's really more about the operator, not so much the machine.

 

[pcmeiners]

AS usual GJ assumptions are made with little knowledge of the situation which is the nature of the beast on forums, no one including myself knows what is in my ground. Common around here to fill with large concrete slabs/pieces which is a major concern should they show up, so is the health of my lawn. Going with a large CASE backhoe so nothing will get in the way along with the other point, I need to move the machine over the lawn in 10 areas, if a tract machine it wouldl do a decent mount of damage to the the 1 1/2 year old seeded lawn, far more than the tires on the CASE.

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

AS usual GJ assumptions are made with little knowledge of the situation which is the nature of the beast on forums, no one including myself knows what is in my ground. Common around here to fill with large concrete slabs/pieces which is a major concern should they show up, so is the health of my lawn. Going with a large CASE backhoe so nothing will get in the way along with the other point, I need to move the machine over the lawn in 10 areas, if a tract machine it wouldl do a decent mount of damage to the the 1 1/2 year old seeded lawn, far more than the tires on the CASE.

Not really in the hands of a skilled operator

 

[Dig Doug]

Your original post was to rent a Dingo ( pictured ) or a back hoe

Since your ground is so rocky and wet you should rent a backhoe like a John Deere 710 w/ a 12inch wide bucket, that will make quick work out of that trench !

although your 1.5 year old lawn will get chewed up ! A backhoe is a Big machine w/ outriggers and bucket dug in for stability
Dumping out the wet dirt shouldn’t be an issue unless it’s mud & or Clay & if you have heavy clay a light spray of diesel fuel on the bucket makes the clay side off

Good Luck !

 

[Dig Doug]

Delivery fees are crazy expensive here in San Diego
$767 rental on a 1 day boom lift and $300 of that is pick up & drop off

27 palm trees in my yard - a boom lift & my dump trailer is cheaper than a tree climber
I get to rent it yearly !

yea

 

[pcmeiners]

"Since your ground is so rocky and wet you should rent a backhoe like a John Deere 710 w/ a 12inch wide bucket"

"although your 1.5 year old lawn will get chewed up"
Main issue is the roots are only down sod depth as of yet anything tracked will tare it up no matter how carefully I make turns with it.


Was looking at a larger Case, too big, but the 710 with a 12" would be the perfect size, they do not have JD equipment but a Kubota L67 or B26 are similar.
27 trees, that a lot, i have a little over half that in large Oak trees. Good thing they require little maintenance as I have been known to kill Cactuses.

Up here rentals are not bad, $205-250 for a large minx or backhoe per day, 75 delivery each way ( about 8 miles). Your prices are inline with NYC metro area.....very painful.

"Just make sure you run more than one pipe !"
Likely I will run an electric line for a Christmas tree/ornaments while I am at it.

 

[Just_Steve]

The yard hydrant has a valve that opens to drain the vertical pipe when you close it. That is the reason for the stone at the bottom of the hydrant.
I am in Northeast CT, and my water line is at 36," and it has never frozen. Our problem is getting through the ledge and the big boulders that the glaciers dropped here. I once saw a single boulder that was larger than a small car. They were installing natural gas lines along the side of the road, and when they came upon this boulder, they dug all around it, and then they lifted it out of the ground with a large crane. Being in a residential area with lots of homes, they couldn't blast it apart on site. Then they brought in a low-boy trailer, loaded it onto the trailer, and took it to a large field to break it up.

My next door neighbor has one of those boulders in his basement. They poured the floor around it and it is about 3 foot above the floor. I often wonder how deep it went.

 

[RTM]

I once saw a single boulder that was larger than a small car. They were installing natural gas lines along the side of the road, and when they came upon this boulder, they dug all around it, and then they lifted it out of the ground with a large crane. Being in a residential area with lots of homes, they couldn't blast it apart on site. Then they brought in a low-boy trailer, loaded it onto the trailer, and took it to a large field to break it up.

My next door neighbor has one of those boulders in his basement. They poured the floor around it and it is about 3 foot above the floor. I often wonder how deep it went.

In my previous life in SoCal, we were situated on an old quarry. One year our landscape crew discovered a leaking irrigation elbow in the front lawn. Dug down to it, found a rock abrading the outside corner. Ok, we’ll dig it out. After several hours, realized they were in over their heads, brought in a professionally operated excavation team of some sort. A few days later, when they finally got it out, it was “bigger than my VW”, from a cohort who was passing by as it was hoisted out.

To this day, I don’t know why they didn’t just reroute the pipe on day one and be done.

 

[Renegade1LI]

AS usual GJ assumptions are made with little knowledge of the situation which is the nature of the beast on forums, no one including myself knows what is in my ground. Common around here to fill with large concrete slabs/pieces which is a major concern should they show up, so is the health of my lawn. Going with a large CASE backhoe so nothing will get in the way along with the other point, I need to move the machine over the lawn in 10 areas, if a tract machine it wouldl do a decent mount of damage to the the 1 1/2 year old seeded lawn, far more than the tires on the CASE.

I think you have it backwards, a track machine, especially a rubber track machine will do way less damage & a whole lot less ground compaction. If you are very concerened put plywood down as you travel, also what are you doing with the excavated material? If stock pilling you're going to do some damage backfilling. If the soil is that bad you may need to consider using some clean bedding material around your pipe so as to prevent damage.

 

[30-30remchester]

Haven't the time right now to read all replies but have spent 50 years in the water well and pump business and the one thing not addressed is you will need a large man-sized hole at the casing so you can get to the casing, drill the hole and install the pitless. After that a small trench should be fine.

 

[pcmeiners]

I think you have it backwards, a track machine, especially a rubber track machine will do way less damage & a whole lot less ground compaction.

Less damage than tire? a year and a half ago I had a Skid Steer for 7 days to grade the yard, a tracked vehicle will damage a lawn far more than rubber tires. If you do not make any turns, yes, but I need to make a lot of turns, no matter how "softly" you make turns it still causes damage on a new lawn. So far the >1 acre lawn has cost me $1200 in seed, $5000 in top[ soil and $200 in fertilizer, I do not want it costing me appreciably more unnecessarily.

the one thing not addressed is you will need a large man-sized hole at the casing so you can get to the casing, drill the hole and install the pitless.

That was addressed in my original post. A primary reason I need a bucketed machine which will dig more than 4 ft down.

 

[jack stand]

Technically I only need 42" for the frosty line here, the only place I need the 48" depth is for the pitiless adapter install.

I haven't kept up on modern "ditch which" machines, but it used to be with the larger ride on machines that you'd have a backhoe on one end for the occasional rock or hard ground too tough for the digging chain.
I'd suggest having too much machine vs. an all day pain in the *** day with a "just enough" machine and possibly another days rental.

 

[pcmeiners]

I'd suggest having too much machine vs. an all day pain in the *** day with a "just enough" machine and possibly another days rental.

Yes I agree, more machine is better than not enough. I visited the rental place and checked out the possibilities. The Case 580 I originally thought of is really big, the next size down Kubota is more than sufficient; yes the wrong decision could cost me days in wasted time, money and aggravation. Anti aggravation is very important to me.