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Spray Foam Contractor Discussion

crooney1189

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I'm having the 3 leading spray foam contractors visit the shop this week to discuss the job specifics and finalize their quotes before I release one of them. This is my first go around with spray foam insulation, so I'm looking for input on what you would make sure to ask them, as well as anything you wish you asked ahead of time for those that have gone down this route before.

I have an idea of what I'd like to know, trying to see if I'm missing anything.
 
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kyrbz

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I used a company called Koala Insulation. They are franchises and I see they have many in Florida. Because they are franchises I can see results varying by location, but my experience with Koala was good. Actually better than most of the sub contractors I’ve hired for a project I’m working on. The crew seemed welled trained, well equipped, and hard working. They were conscientious about masking off areas and items to protect from overspray and did a good job of cleaning up their mess when they were done. They were also pretty generous with the foam. I‘d say in most areas the foam is considerably thicker than what I paid for. One regret was letting them use my scaffolding. They warned me, I wasn’t so concerned because it was well used scaffolding, but in the end I now have a couple sections of scaffolding encased in a fine layer of foam overspray. No biggie, but maybe I wouldn’t offer to let them use my scaffolding or ladders again. You might also consider that you may want to stay out of the space for a few days after the spraying. The off gassing can be kinda strong for a few days after.
 

DaChev

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Ask them about how they mask things off. When I had mine done they told me "we'll get you taken care of" apparently that means they would cover absolutely everything in spray foam overspray.

Spray foam overspray will not come off. Have that discussion and make sure they understand your expectations.
 

readhead

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I retired from the metal building business a few years ago and after twenty five years I have seen the damage that spray foam can do to a building. Especially in a high humidity climate like Florida. It will quietly destroy the building from the inside out and by the time you see it, it is usually too expensive to repair. There was a member here a few years back, also in Florida, that built a very nice building and finished it to a high standard. The building was a couple of years old when a storm caused a tree to fall on the building and do some damage. In the course of doing the repairs the contractor had to remove the foam which was very tedious and discovered that many of the metal components were corroded to the point of having to be replaced and that was before they even got to the storm damaged pieces.

My point is that spray foam does what it says and does it well but it also can cause some pretty serious problems down the road. I had a clause in my contracts that voided all warranties if spray foam was installed and many material suppliers have similar clauses. I would urge you to take a deep dive into spray foam effects and make an informed decision. Many home builders are even moving away from foam because of water damage issues. There are systems where you can install fiberglass insulation after the fact and that would be my suggestion. Remember that the insulation guys have a single purpose and that is to sell spray foam and most are probably aware of the issues but they are not going to share those with you.

Please be very careful. This a decision that can have far reaching impacts. One last note. Insurance companies are aware of spray foam problems. I would recommend that you talk to your agent and get their blessing if you decide to go with foam.
 

WisJim

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We had a area company do my shop and garage building a few years ago, after getting a number of quotes. They did a good job of limiting overspray and then scraped what overspray there was. Some foam expanded through a place in one wall and messed up nearby soffit and they came out and replaced the damaged soffit and cleaned up the foam error. We were very pleased with the company, so there are good ones out there.
 

pcmeiners

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, so I'm looking for input on what you would make sure to ask them,
What ever you agree on get it in writing or the contractors do what they want, not what you want.

One last note. Insurance companies are aware of spray foam problems. I would recommend that you talk to your agent and get their blessing if you decide to go with foam.
Personally I would not inform an agent about anything unnecessarily. If there is a mention of spray foam in your insurance documents inform them, otherwise do not. Basically if something is not in their documents or it is not inferred you are covered, if you tell them your asking for trouble.
 
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dcg9381

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Austin, TX
This is my first go around with spray foam insulation, so I'm looking for input on what you would make sure to ask them, as well as anything you wish you asked ahead of time for those that have gone down this route before.
I have an idea of what I'd like to know, trying to see if I'm missing anything.
I mean if the materials are the same, you're just dealing with how well the contractors do the application.
Definitely ask about covering the floor. You 100% want that done.

There is a skill to applying spray foam, but it's going to be hard to sort out which "contractor" is doing it right by asking questions. The best way to do that would probably go see some of their recent jobs. I've seen companies that definitely have a A, B, and C level teams. A shop building should be simple.

Make sure contract is specific about covering floor, clean up, etc. Not only "inches" of foam, but are they covering the girts/purlins, etc.

Empty shop makes it way easier..
 

karoc

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Hemphill Tx
I still go with spray foam, BUT! Given info provided by Readhead, I would put decking down first. My shop and house is so much cooler than without it.
 

Rusted Nut

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PNW
I retired from the metal building business a few years ago and after twenty five years I have seen the damage that spray foam can do to a building. Especially in a high humidity climate like Florida. It will quietly destroy the building from the inside out and by the time you see it, it is usually too expensive to repair. There was a member here a few years back, also in Florida, that built a very nice building and finished it to a high standard. The building was a couple of years old when a storm caused a tree to fall on the building and do some damage. In the course of doing the repairs the contractor had to remove the foam which was very tedious and discovered that many of the metal components were corroded to the point of having to be replaced and that was before they even got to the storm damaged pieces.

My point is that spray foam does what it says and does it well but it also can cause some pretty serious problems down the road. I had a clause in my contracts that voided all warranties if spray foam was installed and many material suppliers have similar clauses. I would urge you to take a deep dive into spray foam effects and make an informed decision. Many home builders are even moving away from foam because of water damage issues. There are systems where you can install fiberglass insulation after the fact and that would be my suggestion. Remember that the insulation guys have a single purpose and that is to sell spray foam and most are probably aware of the issues but they are not going to share those with you.

Please be very careful. This a decision that can have far reaching impacts. One last note. Insurance companies are aware of spray foam problems. I would recommend that you talk to your agent and get their blessing if you decide to go with foam.
I fully agree with this. A few years ago I did a large shopping mall renovation. In one area, three tenants were relocated. In the old spaces two had batt insulation on the exterior walls, and everything was in good shape. The tenant in the thrid space had used spray foam, every steel stud was rusted through; and the entire wall section had to be replaced. Building cavities need ventilation.
 
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crooney1189

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Hernando, FL
I fully agree with this. A few years ago I did a large shopping mall renovation. In one area, three tenants were relocated. In the old spaces two had batt insulation on the exterior walls, and everything was in good shape. The tenant in the thrid space had used spray foam, every steel stud was rusted through; and the entire wall section had to be replaced. Building cavities need ventilation.
I also fully agree that there is the potential for this type of issue, but in this instance do you know if it was open cell or closed cell foam? From what I've gathered, this type of issue seems related to open cell foam typically.
 
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JunkBonds

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Mike Holmes uses spray foam insulation and has for decades.

I have used it on my rentals and personal home for a long time. No damage but you have to use the correct foam for the area insulated. There is no way a closed foam on steel is going to cause the steel to rust.

Up here in the frozen north we do not want wall cavities to breathe. We do everything possible to seal the cavities so they do not breathe.

Personally, I love spray foam insulation.
 

RescueK9

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I retired from the metal building business a few years ago and after twenty five years I have seen the damage that spray foam can do to a building. Especially in a high humidity climate like Florida. It will quietly destroy the building from the inside out and by the time you see it, it is usually too expensive to repair. There was a member here a few years back, also in Florida, that built a very nice building and finished it to a high standard. The building was a couple of years old when a storm caused a tree to fall on the building and do some damage. In the course of doing the repairs the contractor had to remove the foam which was very tedious and discovered that many of the metal components were corroded to the point of having to be replaced and that was before they even got to the storm damaged pieces.

My point is that spray foam does what it says and does it well but it also can cause some pretty serious problems down the road. I had a clause in my contracts that voided all warranties if spray foam was installed and many material suppliers have similar clauses. I would urge you to take a deep dive into spray foam effects and make an informed decision. Many home builders are even moving away from foam because of water damage issues. There are systems where you can install fiberglass insulation after the fact and that would be my suggestion. Remember that the insulation guys have a single purpose and that is to sell spray foam and most are probably aware of the issues but they are not going to share those with you.

Please be very careful. This a decision that can have far reaching impacts. One last note. Insurance companies are aware of spray foam problems. I would recommend that you talk to your agent and get their blessing if you decide to go with foam.
Is it just from the humidity? Im in the west Texas high desert looking at insulation options now.
 

dcg9381

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Is it just from the humidity? Im in the west Texas high desert looking at insulation options now.
Spray foam is used all over the county. I can't tell you WHY he's indicating there was a failure, nor am I doubting it. My best guess would be that there was a leak, absorbed by the foam and essentially sandwiched against the metal, causing eventual failure. Local airport has at least 15 hangers that have been around for 20 years, all spray foamed - some open cell, some closed cell and most are not on HVAC all the time if at all.. I have not seen a failure. My metal building is done in open cell.

In general, up north where heating is more common and moisture DOES become an issue, you see most of the installations done with a humidity control system of some type.

I've used open cell in 2 stick and brick houses in TX (HVAC runs most of the time). No issues. No issues at my shop either, but it's only been around for 5 years.

Foam and leaks don't get along. Closed cell especially can hide leaks. But that's not the fault of the insulation.
 

RescueK9

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Spray foam is used all over the county. I can't tell you WHY he's indicating there was a failure, nor am I doubting it. My best guess would be that there was a leak, absorbed by the foam and essentially sandwiched against the metal, causing eventual failure. Local airport has at least 15 hangers that have been around for 20 years, all spray foamed - some open cell, some closed cell and most are not on HVAC all the time if at all.. I have not seen a failure. My metal building is done in open cell.

In general, up north where heating is more common and moisture DOES become an issue, you see most of the installations done with a humidity control system of some type.

I've used open cell in 2 stick and brick houses in TX (HVAC runs most of the time). No issues. No issues at my shop either, but it's only been around for 5 years.

Foam and leaks don't get along. Closed cell especially can hide leaks. But that's not the fault of the insulation.
One of the contractors told me it will make the building more sound one said it voids the warranty only because they would have to strip it to work on the building. I'm at 6787 ft above sea level so I will have HVAC..... This is my last home so I want it right.
 

dcg9381

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One of the contractors told me it will make the building more sound one said it voids the warranty only because they would have to strip it to work on the building. I'm at 6787 ft above sea level so I will have HVAC..... This is my last home so I want it right.
Both things can be true. Adding closed cell does add some rigidity. Open cell? Not really.

In general, the building suppliers aren't going to "warranty" the steel if spray foam is applied. They want you to buy their (inferior) insulation package.

But guess what? They're not going to honor the warranty on the steel if there is a leak anyway, that's an installation problem and wouldn't be covered. Insulation type doesn't matter. And these warranties cover the cost of the R panel, not the cost to remove it or re-install it. Assuming they are around in 10-20 years... If their steel has a major defect, probably won't be around anyway.

The biggest downside that I can think of - if steel panels have to come off for "whatever reason" you're going to lose the insulation in those spots. Another thing to watch is using light gauge steel panels, I have seen some issues with foam that expands to fast and creates waves.
 

readhead

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Durango, Co.
We were called to replace one wall sheet on a commercial building because of damage. When I went to look at the job in was spray foamed. I told the owner that it would be a time and material job because of the foam.
What should have been a two hour job, door to door, turned into an eight hour job for two guys. The sheet was essentially glued to the building. When were done he called the insulation company to repair the foam.

This was a good customer and he later told me that the repair totaled 3,400 when it was all done. He said if he knew that he would have left the dent. We had done four buildings for this customer but we didn’t do this particular building. The buildings we did all had fiberglass.

Two years later we were replacing all the sheeting on the first building because of water damage that had started to show through. That was not a cheap date. Fortunately it was caught before structural components were damaged.
 

Chuckster in NJ

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We were called to replace one wall sheet on a commercial building because of damage. When I went to look at the job in was spray foamed. I told the owner that it would be a time and material job because of the foam.
What should have been a two hour job, door to door, turned into an eight hour job for two guys. The sheet was essentially glued to the building. When were done he called the insulation company to repair the foam.

This was a good customer and he later told me that the repair totaled 3,400 when it was all done. He said if he knew that he would have left the dent. We had done four buildings for this customer but we didn’t do this particular building. The buildings we did all had fiberglass.

Two years later we were replacing all the sheeting on the first building because of water damage that had started to show through. That was not a cheap date. Fortunately it was caught before structural components were damaged.
SPRAY FOAM……. It’s a million dollar job installing it years ago but nowadays it’s a billion dollar industry doing repair damage from spray foam.
YES! Spray foam works great for insulation but beware of what happens under the foam where there is no air movement.
 

dcg9381

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Spray foam works great for insulation but beware of what happens under the foam where there is no air movement.
Ugh, nothing? Same as bonding a foam panel to a sheet, if that were possible.? Hard for drama to go on if there is no moisture and no air (closed cell).

I've seen a lot of drama on insurance and foam insulation, mainly out of Europe. My suspicion is that those are massively older structures with all sorts of "sketch" old construction and perhaps inadequate or not-installed moisture control. Foam encapsulation can absolutely trap moisture in the interior in certain climates if not properly handled by air handlers. It's really not rocket science.

And yes, in the event of a leak, it's probably easier to replace bat or any "other" type of insulation. A leak is a legit risk, but that's not an insulation failure.
 

ALboo

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Adding my $0.02 and attempting to simplify a few things for those who just want a path that makes sense, without charts graphs, numbers, and who might be inundated with Google AI conflicting information on what to do about ATTICS, a common space for the spray foam discussion. 1st: what follows is about "humid - subtropical" zones and 2nd: "new builds". This applies say ... central Alabama on a lake. What the sub-climate is matters (not entirely but matters). I am in the engineering/science space so while I like opinion, common sense science wins the day on this side. Below is an attempt to make the case for Open Cell Foam for this use case.

Some fundamental truths. "Traditional" has historically meant interior structural elements and insulation open to outside cold, hot, dry and or moist and all this is. "Sealed" is the opposite, comes with more choices, options, selections thus becomes complicated if diving into the details but, it does not have to be complicated in decision-making.

A. Water is managed and controlled on the outside of the structure (NOT) the inside. If attempting to control water from the inside, stop here because that is something different.

B. Seal the structure up tight (and properly for the building materials used) and water stays where it belongs which outside the structure. Good start is two layers of membrane and a tightly installed quality sheathing, quality roofing contractor, quality shingles.

C. Moisture (talking diffusion now which is microscopic particles) is not the primary discussion here but one can understandably get frustrated with an encyclopedia of material scientists on 1% of the issue and avoiding the 99%.

D. Moving to the inside of the structure, managing and controlling temperature, humidity for either or both comfort cooling or asset protection, comes down to (for the humid-subtropical) 90%(+) moisture drive from outside to inside and 10%(-) moisture drive from inside to outside. Moisture drive for this $0.02 means high moisture seeks low moisture and let's leave that as is.

E. If the structure is not sealed from water from the outside and this includes SEALING OUT WARM MOIST AIR, then go back to "A" and "B" above.

F. Now we are inside, for this case of new construction, in a humid-subtropical zone, use OPEN CELL FOAM (OCF) to insulate the house, with 7"-8" (R24-R30). The OCF can breathe those "microscopic diffusion particles easily" that we do not want to bother our minds worrying about. Let it breathe, lower your energy bills and will significantly improve your structure over the "traditional" case.

G. We are addressing now, a space where the thermal barrier (used to be blown in or laid in insulation on the attic deck exposed to nasty outside elements). Now the space is (insulation on the roof deck under the sheathing inside the climate controlled space) which redefines this discussion ... and extends it to the entire structure's envelope.

H. Assuming the 99.9% case where the level below an attic is HVAC controlled, properly sized and specified, with properly insulated ductwork in the attic space, no mechanical equipment in the attic space, then in this regularly seen case results in closely approximating the temperature and humidity of the space beneath it that essentially is open to the attic because all those attic floor penetrations are (not) sealed up and more importantly, the actual living space is going to be significantly more "humid" naturally where people are living.

I. The ah-ha moment and key to this is to understand that moist air is heavier and the 99% of it is dealt with by the HVAC system serving the space beneath the attic.

J. Measurements of T, RH and DPT in the attic space where WATER and AIR are sealed out, and OCF (no vapor retarder) is properly applied as the insulation (not the water barrier), the attic space will prove to be similar to the "living space" beneath the attic, provide far superior energy benefits over the "traditional" method, and allow that 1% or less diffusion-related vapor to easily move into the attic space to be naturally dealt with by the HVAC system serving the area beneath the attic.

I hope this summary helps those who need a decision path with some data but short of the graphs, the material science theses, or the environmental calculations.

Note: there are use cases for closed cell foam, other variations such as hybrids or combinations to address water barrier, insulation, and air quality management but for the 99%+ in the climate zone described, the above works well. The "IRC and other guidelines" are no replacement for quality construction, attention to detail in sealing the structure, and seasoned knowledgeable application of the OCF. If these are done on new construction with the correct foam product (OCF in this use case), then what is left is roof inspection say starting at 5 years for flashing or other roof penetrations, roof surface condition, with the priority to keep water where it belongs - outside.
 
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