New Bay Window: U-factor not met, Inspector says need new glass, will argon maybe meet new code?

[Chevy-SS]

Recently purchased a large, custom Bay Window. Ordered from Home Depot. They delivered it a few weeks ago, and (being the law-abiding citizen that I am) I went to get a building permit. I was gobsmacked when the permit was refused, the Building Inspector said my new glass panels all failed the new IECC codes for this region (zip code 02842). He said my maximum allowable U-factor is .28, and my panels are .33 and .34

So it appears I will have to buy three new inserts (the frame is OK as-is). Home Depot quoted me ~$1,300 for the new panels. The manufacturer and Home Depot all say it was my responsibility to verify everything prior to purchase.

My only option is to somehow have these glass panels modified so that the U-factor is .28 or lower, and I was wondering if there are any ways to do that? Maybe by using argon as a filler gas? Or coating the glass?

What do you guys think? Is is feasible to modify these panels, or should I just bite the expensive bullet and buy brand new panels? I have attached the spec sheet below. Thanks for any help................

 

[PCustoms]

Should not have gotten a permit for a replacement window IMHO. Also surprised they need to verify the window for a permit in a retrofit situation.

Quick search shows less than 0.3 is required, but that was quick and could be wrong.

There may be films that you can apply.

 

[lmg]

I totally agree with Hank. I also just don't understand why people would not buy E Star or better. I do understand that most people know nothing about specifying windows.

 

[Rusted Nut]

Are you repalcing an existing bay window? If so, you may be able to use a weighted average for that particular wall (R503.1.1.1) Possible if you have the wall torn apart, you could upgrade wall insulation to bring average R factor up. If you're replacing a flat window with a bay unit, probably have to get new glazing units. Is this an older home? If so, talk to building dept and see if they will let you slide as the new unit and wall will be far better insulated than the old.

Never get a building permit unless you absolutely have to.

 

[loganb]

In the window business.....you're not going to like this.

So per industry standards (NFRC 100), only "complete units" are allowed to have the performance labels on them, so that means that if you bought new sashes/glass(but not complete windows) with the upgraded coatings that would get to the .28 U-Factor, the new sashes/glass would not have a performance label on them(assuming the manufacturer is following the rules which would be dumb of them to not be). Without that performance label, the inspector is highly unlikely to pass you even if you can say if that same unit was ordered as a complete unit....here is the mfg documentation showing what that label would say.

Based on your spec sheet, you got Low-E coating and no argon, if you add argon it typically improves U-Factor(makes it lower) by .02 to .03, so adding Argon alone is unlikely to get to the U-Factor requirement if it is .28. It'll likely take argon, an improved(not the default) Low-E coating and possibly adding foam insulation into the cavity of the vinyl frame/sash components. It depends on what coating options they have and the price points as to what the most advantageous way to get there is.

So you've got a couple options....

If the inspector doesn't know that you've already bought the existing unit....you can just send it without the permit and run the risk. I don't know what that risk is for you....a bay install should be done in less then a day, especially a prebuilt bay like you ordered. If it's not the street side elevation that helps to.

You can attempt to get credit for the reorder via the store, they should've asked questions and been more knowledgeable about the requirements...but also doesn't mean they're liable for delivering exactly what was ordered

Reach out to the mfg and try and get some supporting documentation or some type of letter to present to the inspector(no guarantee it'd be accepted). This is likely going to have to be requested via the HD store customer support channel, highly unlikely you get anywhere but irritated trying to go via their consumer/retail customer support process

 

[The Cobbler]

there seems to be another flurry of political posts across the board lately . Just a quick reminder, the board owner has zero tolerance and offenders will get banned

 

[Rusted Nut]

What’s the U rating of the old window? If it’s like .47 or something; go talk to the building official. You’re upgrading the energy efficiency, what’s another .3 U-factor really going to gain. Certainly worth a try.

 

[tarmy]

Forgiveness is easier to get than permission. Install it and never call for the inspection.

That, or order a new one and pay the penalty for not knowing every damn code, that constantly change.

Remember…the ***** of consequences rarely arrives lubed….

 

[loganb]

What’s the U rating of the old window? If it’s like .47 or something; go talk to the building official. You’re upgrading the energy efficiency, what’s another .3 U-factor really going to gain. Certainly worth a try.

Completely understand the reasoning, and you're right that the realized energy savings from .33 to .28 on a single bay is going to be very hard to put an accurate number on. There are some figures for whole house savings based on a .01 U-Factor improvement on new construction but air leakage/poor install nails achieved performance faster than that U-Factor improvement.

The challenge is, the logic described isn't how the current, prescriptive path building codes in the US work. There are pre-established, set requirements that have been "vetted" and agreed to, they're published....you meet them and you get a pass. The building officials generally don't have the leeway to make exceptions like this for black and white items, as then it becomes "well so and so got the exemption why don't I get one" ....

Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's just how it is.

 

[carlaisle]

Leave the window in storage for a year and then install it over the weekend.

 

[InsanePyro]

Can you not return it? HD is generally pretty good about that

 

[Chevy-SS]

In the window business.....you're not going to like this.

So per industry standards (NFRC 100), only "complete units" are allowed to have the performance labels on them, so that means that if you bought new sashes/glass(but not complete windows) with the upgraded coatings that would get to the .28 U-Factor, the new sashes/glass would not have a performance label on them(assuming the manufacturer is following the rules which would be dumb of them to not be). Without that performance label, the inspector is highly unlikely to pass you even if you can say if that same unit was ordered as a complete unit....here is the mfg documentation showing what that label would say.

Based on your spec sheet, you got Low-E coating and no argon, if you add argon it typically improves U-Factor(makes it lower) by .02 to .03, so adding Argon alone is unlikely to get to the U-Factor requirement if it is .28. It'll likely take argon, an improved(not the default) Low-E coating and possibly adding foam insulation into the cavity of the vinyl frame/sash components. It depends on what coating options they have and the price points as to what the most advantageous way to get there is.

So you've got a couple options....

If the inspector doesn't know that you've already bought the existing unit....you can just send it without the permit and run the risk. I don't know what that risk is for you....a bay install should be done in less then a day, especially a prebuilt bay like you ordered. If it's not the street side elevation that helps to.

You can attempt to get credit for the reorder via the store, they should've asked questions and been more knowledgeable about the requirements...but also doesn't mean they're liable for delivering exactly what was ordered

Reach out to the mfg and try and get some supporting documentation or some type of letter to present to the inspector(no guarantee it'd be accepted). This is likely going to have to be requested via the HD store customer support channel, highly unlikely you get anywhere but irritated trying to go via their consumer/retail customer support process

Thanks, this is the info I was looking for. The inspector knows I have the unit in hand already, and it is on the street side. I had a long discussion with him about this whole issue. He says there's no leeway, and yet, virtually all the double-hung windows at this Home Depot store do not meet the U-factor that the inspector is so vigorously enforcing. How can the store be allowed to sell all those non-compliant windows, while I am being strictly held to the new standard? It's maddening.

Thanks again. I'm not sure what I'll do.

 

[mike93lx]

Can you not return it? HD is generally pretty good about that

Not on a custom order

 

[Chevy-SS]

My final thoughts....... I am just going to bite the bullet and order new windows that meet all the 2024 IECC specs. My contractor for the job is a friend of mine, his name is on the Permit Application, so I don't want to take any chances. I want to be 100% compliant with everything. My contractor was not the one who placed the original order, that was someone else, but the person that ordered is now battling serious cancer issues, so I am not going to bust his chops, he's got enough problems.

As usual, this forum has provided some truly valuable assistance. I appreciate the comments and suggestions from everyone. My sincerest thanks to you all!!!

 

[scooterbum46]

How can the store be allowed to sell all those non-compliant windows, while I am being strictly held to the new standard?

My first, second and third vehicle equipment violations when I was a kid, for Cherry Bomb mufflers on my 55 Cheby - I tried that argument with the Justice of the Peace when I was trying to get out of the tickets. Didn't wash with him at all.

 

[Junkman]

I would do nothing! The permit will expire, and if you never install it, then you have cut your losses. If it is already installed, then don't call for an inspection. I know of a house that failed an inspection, and the owner moved into the new home without the certificate of occupancy. There was nothing that the town could do about it. He has been in the home for over 16 years.

 

[PCustoms]

I can't imagine eating $5k over a U factor on a replacement window

 

[mike93lx]

I would do nothing! The permit will expire, and if you never install it, then you have cut your losses. If it is already installed, then don't call for an inspection. I know of a house that failed an inspection, and the owner moved into the new home without the certificate of occupancy. There was nothing that the town could do about it. He has been in the home for over 16 years.

He doesn't have a permit

 

[mike93lx]

I can't imagine eating $5k over a U factor on a replacement window

What's the alternative besides installing unpermitted or selling on MP for maybe half?

If he's hell bent on permitting, he's not installing it

 

[Chevy-SS]

What's the alternative besides installing unpermitted or selling on MP for maybe half?

If he's hell bent on permitting, he's not installing it

I don't need to replace the whole frame, just the glass panels. The cost for the new panels is ~$1,300. So that's my final cost.

 

[mike93lx]

I don't need to replace the whole frame, just the glass panels. The cost for the new panels is ~$1,300. So that's my final cost.

Your last post read to me like you were doing a whole new assembly.

Make sure the inspector is good with this, in writing

 

[loganb]

Thanks, this is the info I was looking for. The inspector knows I have the unit in hand already, and it is on the street side. I had a long discussion with him about this whole issue. He says there's no leeway, and yet, virtually all the double-hung windows at this Home Depot store do not meet the U-factor that the inspector is so vigorously enforcing. How can the store be allowed to sell all those non-compliant windows, while I am being strictly held to the new standard? It's maddening.

Thanks again. I'm not sure what I'll do.

It's definitely a challenge....

Here is what I can say about it.....this is based on my experience working for a major manufacturer who did have a partnership with a big box retailer.

The windows stocked in the store, like many similar product categories are break even (on a good year) price points/products....frequently called loss leaders. They exist because the retailer requires product to be stocked, on the shelf so customers can come and get it....and the manufacturer agrees to do it with the concession about opportunities to have priority/preferred treatment on the special order side. So yeah, there are stock windows in standard options and sizes there....but as you're in theory supposed to find out from the helpful millwork team member that if this is for a house, it doesn't meet the new energy codes adopted last week/month/year and just come over and sit down and let's work up what the pricing is for that option.....

In reality what it usually means is what you're finding out, the retailer challenges the mfg in a process called "line reviews" to get the lowest price on the shelf, in order to do that and have the fewest sku's out there for all the different areas, each with a different set of energy codes they just put out the same basic option that in the northeast probably meets nobody's codes. Results are it either encourages a bunch of unpermitted window replacements or it drives special order sales with the upgraded options...

From the mfg standpoint, trying to meet state energy codes in stocked product in the northeast where codes are tighter and states are smaller is extremely challenging. You're pitting the wishes of your actual customer(the retail partner) often against what's probably best for the end customer(store customer) while at the whims of a state building code process that often then gets superseded by a local energy code being adopted that's even tighter. Jump up to MA and their energy code requirements for windows are even tighter still and basically requires triple pane for everything....

The official, accepted use for the windows not meeting the building code requirements would be sheds, garages etc. The big box retail channel target customer is the DIY homeowner(though HD does a good job of selling to contractors), and that DIY homeowner is less likely to pull a permit and follow the process

 

[PCustoms]

What's the alternative besides installing unpermitted or selling on MP for maybe half?

3m window film.

I'd call either Portland Glass or possibly Woonsocket glass.

 

[mike93lx]

3m window film.

I'd call either Portland Glass or possibly Woonsocket glass.

Window film can bring this into compliance?

 

[Cobra5150]

I don't need to replace the whole frame, just the glass panels. The cost for the new panels is ~$1,300. So that's my final cost.

Did you get that in writing? It would royally **** to do that then have it fail again because it's certified as a "unit" as mentioned previously.

 

[zimman]

Thanks, this is the info I was looking for. The inspector knows I have the unit in hand already, and it is on the street side. I had a long discussion with him about this whole issue. He says there's no leeway, and yet, virtually all the double-hung windows at this Home Depot store do not meet the U-factor that the inspector is so vigorously enforcing. How can the store be allowed to sell all those non-compliant windows, while I am being strictly held to the new standard? It's maddening.

Thanks again. I'm not sure what I'll do.

If I had the resources, I'd sue the store. You're correct in assuming products sold locally would be "code compliant"
Zim

 

[mike93lx]

If I had the resources, I'd sue the store. You're correct in assuming products sold locally would be "code compliant"
Zim

Complete waste of time. It isn't illegal to sell the product.

You can still buy s traps and saddle valves there too. Let's start a class action!

 

[Cobra5150]

If I had the resources, I'd sue the store. You're correct in assuming products sold locally would be "code compliant"
Zim

Complete waste of time. It isn't illegal to sell the product.

You can still buy s traps and saddle valves there too. Let's start a class action!

The threat of action may get some traction. I would push for a compromise say a complete unit for the price of just the replacement panels.

 

[mike93lx]

The threat of action may get some traction. I would push for a compromise say a complete unit for the price of just the replacement panels.

Even fat men make babies, sometimes you just have to ask.

Personally, I wouldnt threaten legal action. If I was the store manager, that would be the point where I would end the conversation and refer you to HD legal department.

 

[PCustoms]

Window film can bring this into compliance?

Potentially.

The low e-films should be able to decrease the U-factor. Step 1 would be talking to an application specialist to run the numbers for the specific configuration the OP has. Step 2 would be reviewing that calculation with the inspector to confirm the modification meets the overall intent of the code and is acceptable.

I've dealt with this type of material for non-energy related uses.

 

[mike93lx]

Potentially.

The low e-films should be able to decrease the U-factor. Step 1 would be talking to an application specialist to run the numbers for the specific configuration the OP has. Step 2 would be reviewing that calculation with the inspector to confirm the modification meets the overall intent of the code and is acceptable.

I've dealt with this type of material for non-energy related uses.

Interesting. The spec sheet already says low-E, so I'd wonder if this would help

 

[zimman]

The threat of action may get some traction. I would push for a compromise say a complete unit for the price of just the replacement panels.

I've done retail for a few decades and no one wants that "1-800-you're in trouble" call from Corporate Office customer support. However, this is a big deal and they may just sign up for a fight. I'm sorry for your troubles and this is reason I moved away from the East Coast and settled in the woods. No one gives a **** here and I love it.
And yeah, I'm from Washington DC. LOL
Zim

 

[jar944]

The thought of a permit for a replacement window hurts my head, almost as much as the new window being required to meet a energy rating minimum when the house could be a un-insulated structure built in the 1890s and is not required to meet anything in and of itself.

Is it really any wonder why people just don't bother with a permit.

As an aside how is op going to get the inspector to buy off on replacement units if there is not a u factor sticker or etch on the glass?

Just forge some documents/stickers/etch with a better rating and say it's a different window.. it's not like there is a penalty for a falsified window rating from a home owner.

 

[PoorUB]

If I had the resources, I'd sue the store. You're correct in assuming products sold locally would be "code compliant"
Zim

Complete waste of time. It isn't illegal to sell the product.

You can still buy s traps and saddle valves there too. Let's start a class action!

I laugh at these comments! The store can sell what ever they want as long as it is not illegal. What doesn't pass code in your city might pass easily ten feet out of the city limits.
Hire and attorney, sue the store, good luck blowing your money on an attorney! Plus any legal fees will be more than the cost of the window.

Here in North Dakota the code book gets used a lot for camp fire kindling. In a few of the larger cities they are good at enforcing code. The whole state dictates which code book to follow, but zero enforcement, so you may as well say no codes. I know guys that built new homes and the septic needed to be inspected, but that was the only time and inspector walked on the property, no building, electrical, plumbing or HVAC inspections.

I have heard the feds were going to relax some of these energy codes, so it may be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Caneil]

An interior storm window insert could reduce the U factor enough to get it into compliance. Most push into place and are held there by either the weatherstripping or by hardware store clips.

The bigger question is whether the inspector would allow it.

 

[manwithtools]

The thought of a permit for a replacement window hurts my head, almost as much as the new window being required to meet a energy rating minimum when the house could be a un-insulated structure built in the 1890s and is not required to meet anything in and of itself.

I have to agree, this requirement on a replacement window for an older home of unknown energy efficiency is ridiculous.

 

[PCustoms]

Interesting. The spec sheet already says low-E, so I'd wonder if this would help

Here's an example:



Looks like it isn't as dramatic on double pane, but there is a change. I believe 3M (or other MFG) can run the calcs based on the specific pane configuration.

Again I've dealt with this stuff for other really off the wall reasons, not specifically the U factor.

 

[Just_Steve]

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windowfilm.com

 

[Chevy-SS]

Well, you guys got me curious now. I'm gonna check into the Window Film idea. Maybe that'll work......... thanks!

 

[Just_Steve]

Well, you guys got me curious now. I'm gonna check into the Window Film idea. Maybe that'll work......... thanks!

Lots of interesting reading when it comes to window films.
So "Have-A-Gansett" or two and do some homework.