the utter savagery of using crappy tools

[KnurledNut]

Over the years of working with all kinds of stuff, I have been pleasantly surprised with some cheap tools and disappointed with some premium ones. I've also used some real crappy junk that was all I had to work with, but in most cases it still got the job done. There have been a few times where a high quality tool succeeded where an inferior one failed.

@jd_1138
I don't own it, but from the pictures, I actually like the layout and case design of that Warrior set. It might be work keeping and upgrading the contents. How well do the 1" insert bits hold in those 12 point hex recesses?

 

[DAustin]

I remember moving up to Craftsman tools back in the 60s, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.

 

[AEAdam]

That crappy HF Warrior set gets great reviews, but if you notice the positive reviews it seems the people never even used them and still left a positive review. Nuts.

"My husband bought me a drill so I'd have my own, instead of using his (lol), but I figured I'd need bits and found this set for an awesome price!"

"For the price, this is a pretty complete set"

"Got this as a stocking stuffer!"

If you look at the 1 star reviews, it's from people who actually used them and found them to be poop. You can't really trust reviews unless they're from a trusted person.

I think this is a really big problem. And I don’t 100% understand it.

I get that you buy a product and you are thinking about it, and you post your first impressions. I sorta get that, but such reviews are not really valuable data.

Then there are YouTube reviewers, who purport to provide actual product experience, but many or most are glorified unboxing videos.

Last are the comparison testers, who really are focused on verifying manufacturers claims as if the manufacturers know how to use their products or what features are actually important to users.

Dare I say, even our GJ threads are not immune. I’ve read glowing praise for certain specific products here, especially when they are new. Or people jump on a brand band wagon. Then 6 months later there are these quality escape threads, dissatisfaction, but no mention in the threads praising the products in the first place.

When I was a child, I was fascinated by paleontology, & dinosaurs like other boys. I recall seeing the “evolution of man” articles. I saw the “brontosaurus” in the Chicago Field Museum. Turns out, all that was wrong. Neanderthals are not in our evolutionary chain. The enormous animal in Chicago has some other dinosaur’s head on a different animal’s body. But I never saw any mention that we got all that wrong. They published their papers in books and encyclopedias. But believe us now, because we’re scientists and now our answers are correct. Feels very similar to tool reviews to me.

 

[zendriver]

Going out o a limb here, but if you have a machine shop, or do much metal work in general, you don't leave an HF review, because you probably don't buy a $13 set of Warrior drill bits. or maybe even set foot in an HF store, at all.

Those sets are my go-to because they were cheap, cover the sizes and come in a nice case. They're ok for wood, as for metal some small sizes are ok, while the bigger sizes are nearly useless, but i don't drill much metal. I have a tool box full of older bits I'll dig through if i need them. Years ago I had emergency job to drill out wheel lug bolts, so I thought I'd give them a try, size didn't matter. Some of them drilled pretty good, I had one that grabbed and instead of breaking, started untwisting.

No surprise, not all HF shoppers are as sophisticated as we. If they want to buy their husband a stocking stuffer of drill bits, maybe they think they are fine. Honestly, would anyone here be interested in what others think of Warrior bits (or most user reviews)? Personally, I've never read one review of the product. They're cheap drill bits.

The real issue imo, is those that should know better, but "go cheap" then complain when they got exactly what they paid for, not meeting expectations. "I purchased these new Snap On wrenches off eBay for a great price - they don't look right, now I'm wondering if they are counterfeit. Should I contact Snap On?"

On the flip side, should the housewife buy her duffer husband a $50 set of drills, so he can finally hang her wall shelf?

Buying anything should always be tempered with expectations. At least that's how I roll.

 

[zimman]

Buying anything should always be tempered with expectations.

You got that right! Quote of the day.
I went through a box of pocket screws yesterday and never said a cuss word. LMAO
Zim

 

[dsimatt]

I think this is a really big problem. And I don’t 100% understand it.

I get that you buy a product and you are thinking about it, and you post your first impressions. I sorta get that, but such reviews are not really valuable data.

Then there are YouTube reviewers, who purport to provide actual product experience, but many or most are glorified unboxing videos.

Last are the comparison testers, who really are focused on verifying manufacturers claims as if the manufacturers know how to use their products or what features are actually important to users.

Dare I say, even our GJ threads are not immune. I’ve read glowing praise for certain specific products here, especially when they are new. Or people jump on a brand band wagon. Then 6 months later there are these quality escape threads, dissatisfaction, but no mention in the threads praising the products in the first place.

When I was a child, I was fascinated by paleontology, & dinosaurs like other boys. I recall seeing the “evolution of man” articles. I saw the “brontosaurus” in the Chicago Field Museum. Turns out, all that was wrong. Neanderthals are not in our evolutionary chain. The enormous animal in Chicago has some other dinosaur’s head on a different animal’s body. But I never saw any mention that we got all that wrong. They published their papers in books and encyclopedias. But believe us now, because we’re scientists and now our answers are correct. Feels very similar to tool reviews to me.

How often do you think people are going to really be using these tools like the OP bought? Also are you going to take the time 6 months to a year later to find the product online and do a review on it?


Online reviews for products or places mostly are worth what you are paying for them and that’s nothing. Very rare for people to give a good explanation of why they gave a good or bad review so how can you trust them?


YouTube used to be a good place for finding out about products, now it’s all about clicks and building their channels. You spend so much time digging through all different videos before you might find someone that actually uses the product repeatedly a can give a honest opinion of it.

 

[RTM]

Online reviews for products or places mostly are worth what you are paying for them and that’s nothing. Very rare for people to give a good explanation of why they gave a good or bad review so how can you trust them?

I always chuckle when I get an email request to write a review for a tool that maybe just arrived or possibly hasn't even arrived. Some days it seems like that's 90% of what I see online : the box is pretty and heavy.

And I think that's what a lot of the **** manufacturers are counting on. Someone writes that review on day one and it's gospel.

 

[dsimatt]

I always chuckle when I get an email request to write a review for a tool that maybe just arrived or possibly hasn't even arrived. Some days it seems like that's 90% of what I see online : the box is pretty and heavy.

And I think that's what a lot of the **** manufacturers are counting on. Someone writes that review on day one and it's gospel.

We bought a tv stand off Amazon in June, we really liked the way it looked and some people did some good informative reviews for it. They just recently stopped sending a review requests, I wonder if people just throw a quick review to get those to stop.

 

[jd_1138]

Over the years of working with all kinds of stuff, I have been pleasantly surprised with some cheap tools and disappointed with some premium ones. I've also used some real crappy junk that was all I had to work with, but in most cases it still got the job done. There have been a few times where a high quality tool succeeded where an inferior one failed.

@jd_1138
I don't own it, but from the pictures, I actually like the layout and case design of that Warrior set. It might be work keeping and upgrading the contents. How well do the 1" insert bits hold in those 12 point hex recesses?

I didn't really try the recesses too much. The 3 bits I tried were ****.

It's just a standard bit case (seems flimsy BTW) that you can get in a different brand like Ryobi, Makita, Bosch, Dewalt so on with way better bits for just like 20% more mo why.

I'd avoid it but if you want the case I'd remove the bits and use them in manual 1/4 inch bit drivers. Or give them to an enemy. Not adequate for power drills or impacts.

 

[jd_1138]

Instructions/directions have been mentioned. I am not sure why a lot of people loathe them and refuse to read them. They act like they're somehow back in school and having to study for an Algebra test and instantly they get revolted.

They will glance at them, panic and think they're looking at some ancient lost language and give up on the job of putting the item together or just wing it and do it wrong. Then the item doesn't work or last long.

I just take a few minutes (with a coffee in hand) and read them including the first page that usually shows the pieces and the hardware. Then I read them through once. Then I lay out the pieces carefully so everything is easy to get to.

 

[Gmonkee]

My Dad, who ran a service station and farmed, could have won the award for the "crappiest tool collection known to man". (even though my brother was a slave to them) He wouldn't give the Snap On tool man, the time of day. His stuff was from napa, half missing, rusty screwdrivers with taped wood handles.

He got through life just fine, setting my Mom up to live very comfortable, for the rest her life and gave a kids a nice inheritance pay-day.

Throughout the ages, people did great things with tools, that were not necessarily "all that"

My Stanley and B+D collection is mixing with Pretul and Truper well, all do their jobs and no problems getting stuff done.
Its what I learned to trust decades ago. My son is following along with same results.
We still get into silly brand wars. It's fun.

 

[zendriver]

Now I think I might upgrade my drillbits.

 

[Ohio Andy]

Now I think I might upgrade my drillbits.

A friend stopped in and he had to drill a hole in something. He was shocked at the crisp clean hole... He wanted to know what they were so he could buy a set.

I told him it helps to have the right bit for the job... And it should be sharp.

 

[rharman]

My dad used to say, “We’re not rich enough to afford cheap tools.”

My dad always had cheap tools. But, he could, and did, build or fix damn near anything. A boat, a carport for the boat, all car repairs, and so much more.

I learned so much from him but I went the opposite direction and have always bought good tools. Same with cars. He almost always bought used and I have always bought new.

 

[LOW1]

My dad always had cheap tools. But, he could, and did, build or fix damn near anything. A boat, a carport for the boat, all car repairs, and so much more.

I learned so much from him but I went the opposite direction and have always bought good tools. Same with cars. He almost always bought used and I have always bought new.

I think tools are like golf clubs. You could give me $5000 to buy any set of clubs I want. And you could give Tiger Woods a curling broom. He would beat me by at least 20 Strokes.

 

[Wamsutta]

My aggravation and intolerance of cheap tool runs way deeper than wobbly drill bits.

I get aggravated at the guys who can't tell the difference between a Snap-on wrench and any other wrench.

 

[rharman]

I think tools are like golf clubs. You could give me $5000 to buy any set of clubs I want. And you could give Tiger Woods a curling broom. He would beat me by at least 20 Strokes.

Exactly how I sometimes think about my dad's skills.

It's like when I was racing flat-track. I HAD to have a really fast bike to make up for my skill set.

 

[Notgrownup]

There is a difference where and who is going to use it. My granddaughter needed an assorted tool kit for her new apartment. HF fits the bill for her and it made her very happy. I now try to pick and choose based on what it is. I love to have nice stuff but pick my battles.

 

[Lassen Forge]

And eventually she may just upgrade those HF specials, tho for a homeowner nothing wrong with HF or HD, as long as you replace them when they die.

My county has not has industrial art classes in over three decades...

I used to lament this, then I realized the reason there are fewer Industrial Arts classes is thanks to OSHA. Back when I was in school (and fought like a wildcat to take them) ALL of the IA teachers had some industry-caused injury - missing digits or extrmities, bent/disfigured limbs, and a ribald variety of scars), but since the workplace has become safer, people are industrially injured less - and the pool of IA teachers dried up.

Don't laugh - I may be onto something here....

Over the years of working with all kinds of stuff, I have been pleasantly surprised with some cheap tools and disappointed with some premium ones. I've also used some real crappy junk that was all I had to work with, but in most cases it still got the job done. There have been a few times where a high quality tool succeeded where an inferior one failed.

The best screwdriver set I ever had came out of the discount bin at a NAPA auto parts store - I got them as cheapys for a class I took, and ended up to this day still reach for them. More ergonomic, haven't had one cam out yet (unlike my 'spensive SO's)... Whoda thought?

Speaking of homeowner tools -
I have a Brüder Mannesmann M29084 87 piece kit, think I paid less than $100 for it (just looked it up - $105 on Amazon) for around the house. It has yet to be skunked for home repair stuff. ONLY downside (for you) is it's metric (IDK if they make one in "imperial" measurements), but damned near everything I need for fix its around the house.



I'd never heard of them when I was in the states, but found out they're kind of like the old Craftsman tools in quality. I liked it enough I bought one to throw in the back of the car.

My dad always had cheap tools. But, he could, and did, build or fix damn near anything. A boat, a carport for the boat, all car repairs, and so much more. I learned so much from him but I went the opposite direction and have always bought good tools. Same with cars. He almost always bought used and I have always bought new.

Mine was the same way, but a lot of those "flea market" and "pawn shop" tools were quality tools for cheap. I went the other way - I buy upper-medium quality tools under the "buy once, cry once" mantra, mainly because those pushing 100 year old tools were getting long in the tooth!!

 

[d.mcfarland]

Then there are YouTube reviewers, who purport to provide actual product experience, but many or most are glorified unboxing videos.

Spot on.

But the YouTube audience and algorithm doesn't seem to reward people who have used and abused something for a year and then gave a review. It also doesn't help that everyone just wants to make videos and use affiliate links. That's why everything "reviewed" is almost always sold at Amazon and Home Depot.

 

[zendriver]

I get aggravated at the guys who can't tell the difference between a Snap-on wrench and any other wrench.

Can't they just read the brand name that's imprinted on the wrench?

 

[whateg01]

Can't they just read the brand name that's imprinted on the wrench?

It's probably obscured by hair

 

[BlakeTheCarGuy]

This reminds me of when my coworkers all laughed at me for buying expensive drill bits and are like our Harbor Freight master set or whatever it’s called works fine. Then they ended up breaking or not drilling through anything so they come and get mine and then they go get more Harbor Freight bits and the same thing happens and they are like well I’m not spending money for better ones or researching better ones.

 

[mreisner]

And eventually she may just upgrade those HF specials, tho for a homeowner nothing wrong with HF or HD, as long as you replace them when they die.


I used to lament this, then I realized the reason there are fewer Industrial Arts classes is thanks to OSHA. Back when I was in school (and fought like a wildcat to take them) ALL of the IA teachers had some industry-caused injury - missing digits or extrmities, bent/disfigured limbs, and a ribald variety of scars), but since the workplace has become safer, people are industrially injured less - and the pool of IA teachers dried up.

Don't laugh - I may be onto something here....


The best screwdriver set I ever had came out of the discount bin at a NAPA auto parts store - I got them as cheapys for a class I took, and ended up to this day still reach for them. More ergonomic, haven't had one cam out yet (unlike my 'spensive SO's)... Whoda thought?

Speaking of homeowner tools -
I have a Brüder Mannesmann M29084 87 piece kit, think I paid less than $100 for it (just looked it up - $105 on Amazon) for around the house. It has yet to be skunked for home repair stuff. ONLY downside (for you) is it's metric (IDK if they make one in "imperial" measurements), but damned near everything I need for fix its around the house.



I'd never heard of them when I was in the states, but found out they're kind of like the old Craftsman tools in quality. I liked it enough I bought one to throw in the back of the car.



Mine was the same way, but a lot of those "flea market" and "pawn shop" tools were quality tools for cheap. I went the other way - I buy upper-medium quality tools under the "buy once, cry once" mantra, mainly because those pushing 100 year old tools were getting long in the tooth!!

How can you tell the retired shop teacher in the crowd? He is the guy that can't count to 21 anymore....

 

[whateg01]

How can you tell the retired shop teacher in the crowd? He is the guy that can't count to 21 anymore....

As an Asian, I could only ever count to 20 and a half anyway

 

[KnurledNut]

This reminds me of when my coworkers all laughed at me for buying expensive drill bits and are like our Harbor Freight master set or whatever it’s called works fine. Then they ended up breaking or not drilling through anything so they come and get mine and then they go get more Harbor Freight bits and the same thing happens and they are like well I’m not spending money for better ones or researching better ones.

Gotta pick your battles. When I was working with a large crew, there were certain things that I learned not to share. The company always bought crappy aviation snips. I bought myself Malco's as they outperformed everything and the guys would get fighting mad when I wouldn't let them borrow them. The longer I worked, the more stuff I acquired for my own personal use because I was tired of worn out junk. I had to keep a third eye on everything though because they would take it without asking if they could.

 

[AEAdam]

This reminds me of when my coworkers all laughed at me for buying expensive drill bits and are like our Harbor Freight master set or whatever it’s called works fine. Then they ended up breaking or not drilling through anything so they come and get mine and then they go get more Harbor Freight bits and the same thing happens and they are like well I’m not spending money for better ones or researching better ones.

I hear some of that here with never a go back. When HF started releasing Snap on clone ratchets there were threads of praise. Quietly, 6 months later, there were threads about the gen 1 ratchets reversing under load, shearing anvils etc.

It’s ok, **** happens and they are a semi bargain tool. But the threads raving they were identical, one guy put snap on guts in his etc, I felt were pretty premature. I wonder how many of those posts were from people who actually used them.

It’s just a ratchet. It’s not a gender choice. Get what you want, change your mind, but before you make claims or argue with your friends here, spend 6 months with it. We’ll happily wait. And I for one care what you think.

I bought a HF 1/4” roto nearly 6 months ago. I’ve used it, but not enough to have an opinion. I’m waiting to see if it breaks in or maybe I’ll give it an oil change, then decide.

 

[RoninB4]

This reminds me of when my coworkers all laughed at me for buying expensive drill bits and are like our Harbor Freight master set or whatever it’s called works fine. Then they ended up breaking or not drilling through anything so they come and get mine and then they go get more Harbor Freight bits and the same thing happens and they are like well I’m not spending money for better ones or researching better ones.

-Refusing to learn why some things are more expensive is willful ignorance. Same type of people that buy into expensive battery platform power tools just to join the "me too" club but insist on buying cheap twist drills, cheap taps, and cheap dies. To some, everything is the same except price.

 

[Wamsutta]

Can't they just read the brand name that's imprinted on the wrench?

There's more to it than that. The most important aspect bar none is ergonomics -- how well the wrench feels in your hand. The 2nd most important thing when it comes to wrenches is how well it's balanced. It should be pretty much balanced at the midpoint between the open end and box end. The 3rd most important thing is how easy it is to maneuver in your hand. I sometimes hold the wrench between my thumb, index finger and middle finger. While holding the wrench in that position, I want to be able to roll it over quickly when turning fasteners with the open end. That's where Snap-on really shines. I can roll it over quickly because of the wide thin beam profile. The last important thing is of course is how well it fits the fastener. Most all wrenches on the market do well in that aspect but not in the other aspects I mentioned.

 

[AEAdam]

-Refusing to learn why some things are more expensive is willful ignorance. Same type of people that buy into expensive battery platform power tools just to join the "me too" club but insist on buying cheap twist drills, cheap taps, and cheap dies. To some, everything is the same except price.

In my opinion, this is less about stubbornness and more a buying into the conspiracy theory that everything we buy comes out of the same factory in China. The problem with that conspiracy theory, like all conspiracy theories is that there's some shreds of truth in it. For years we were paying more for dishwashers or washer dryers with American names on them, only to find there were multiple companies rebadging the exact same models, but some well selling at a premium.

So I think where so many of us are now is, having no idea where our products are coming from, and no real way to gauge quality based solely on COO, we are turning to the reviews I'm ranting about.

I'm saying I think you are right, but it's not mere ignorance that's gotten us here. Like everything else, its a bit more complicated that that.

 

[zendriver]

There's more to it than that. The most important aspect bar none is ergonomics -- how well the wrench feels in your hand. The 2nd most important thing when it comes to wrenches is how well it's balanced. It should be pretty much balanced at the midpoint between the open end and box end. The 3rd most important thing is how easy it is to maneuver in your hand. I sometimes hold the wrench between my thumb, index finger and middle finger. While holding the wrench in that position, I want to be able to roll it over quickly when turning fasteners with the open end. That's where Snap-on really shines. I can roll it over quickly because of the wide thin beam profile. The last important thing is of course is how well it fits the fastener. Most all wrenches on the market do well in that aspect but not in the other aspects I mentioned.

Fair enough, but everything you just posted is subjective.

Other may have never even touched SO wrenches, so maybe whatever inferior product they use, works just fine for them.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

For years we were paying more for dishwashers or washer dryers with American names on them, only to find there were multiple companies rebadging the exact same models, but some well selling at a premium.

This is the ultimate concluding state of over leveraging buyer seller information asymmetry. Trust disappears and buyers don't engage anymore, trying to protect themselves from getting fooled again.

This happens in general, not just to the guilty brands or suppliers, or even the industry.

 

[rharman]

< snip >
== 1 ==
I used to lament this, then I realized the reason there are fewer Industrial Arts classes is thanks to OSHA. Back when I was in school (and fought like a wildcat to take them) ALL of the IA teachers had some industry-caused injury - missing digits or extrmities, bent/disfigured limbs, and a ribald variety of scars), but since the workplace has become safer, people are industrially injured less - and the pool of IA teachers dried up.

Don't laugh - I may be onto something here....

< /snip >

< snip >
== 2 ==
Mine was the same way, but a lot of those "flea market" and "pawn shop" tools were quality tools for cheap. I went the other way - I buy upper-medium quality tools under the "buy once, cry once" mantra, mainly because those pushing 100 year old tools were getting long in the tooth!!

< /snip >

== 1 ==
Was this their uniform shirt??


== 2 ==
I still have some of my dad's tools and I treasure them. He passed in 1986 at the age of 67.

His old grass clippers, still with the electrical taped handles, and I use them occasionally.
A really nice pair of aluminum pipe wrenches.

I also have a couple of things from my maternal grandfather. My favorite is a full bit & brace set in an oiled canvas roll. Don't think I've ever used it but I'll never get rid of it.

 

[mreisner]

I hear some of that here with never a go back. When HF started releasing Snap on clone ratchets there were threads of praise. Quietly, 6 months later, there were threads about the gen 1 ratchets reversing under load, shearing anvils etc.

It’s ok, **** happens and they are a semi bargain tool. But the threads raving they were identical, one guy put snap on guts in his etc, I felt were pretty premature. I wonder how many of those posts were from people who actually used them.

It’s just a ratchet. It’s not a gender choice. Get what you want, change your mind, but before you make claims or argue with your friends here, spend 6 months with it. We’ll happily wait. And I for one care what you think.

I bought a HF 1/4” roto nearly 6 months ago. I’ve used it, but not enough to have an opinion. I’m waiting to see if it breaks in or maybe I’ll give it an oil change, then decide.

The Snap-on kits drop right in to the G2 ratchets. I made a 3/8 Flex head which has the Matco style for the lock. Not the greatest ratchet in the world but pretty damn impressive. I would snap on would make a lock for their Flex head like that.

 

[mreisner]

As an Asian, I could only ever count to 20 and a half anyway

That has to been the funniest thing I've heard all week!

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

I get aggravated at the guys who can't tell the difference between a Snap-on wrench and any other wrench.

There's worse

People who think others who bought good tools, are unaware of cheaper options ("you know X does those"), or are fools ("you more money than sense paying A for that"). First type is trying to be helpful by spreading the word, second type is just calling you an idiot.

 

[KnurledNut]

I hear some of that here with never a go back. When HF started releasing Snap on clone ratchets there were threads of praise. Quietly, 6 months later, there were threads about the gen 1 ratchets reversing under load, shearing anvils etc.

It’s ok, **** happens and they are a semi bargain tool. But the threads raving they were identical, one guy put snap on guts in his etc, I felt were pretty premature. I wonder how many of those posts were from people who actually used them.

It’s just a ratchet. It’s not a gender choice. Get what you want, change your mind, but before you make claims or argue with your friends here, spend 6 months with it. We’ll happily wait. And I for one care what you think.

I bought a HF 1/4” roto nearly 6 months ago. I’ve used it, but not enough to have an opinion. I’m waiting to see if it breaks in or maybe I’ll give it an oil change, then decide.

That's an odd reply to what Blake was talking about.
But since it already went there, let's not forget the same thing happened to the Cynergy ratchets. I expected issues with HF but for me it was even more of a disappointment coming from a premium brand that has a real R&D department and (gasp) engineers.
The good thing is both companies were very aggressive in fixing the issues and taking care of any that purchased them.
And I get what you're saying about using a tool before singing its praises, but that's just the nature of the beast when it comes to new and exciting releases.