For those of you who have a red iron steel building, how did you set your anchor bolts? I was planning on making a fixture to hold them in position and have the concrete guys pour around it. The concrete guys want to wet set them, which I am a little skeptical of considering there's a short window and 40 bolts which need to be set near perfect. Another option is drilling holes and using epoxy, this option isn't included in my foundation plans, but I could always call the engineer and ask if this would be acceptable.
Steel Building Anchor Bolts
- Thread starter StefanNH
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mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Considering the accuracy needed, I'd be looking at doing either epoxy or titen-hd's.
Even if you get their alignment relative to each other perfectly with something like a plywood jig, getting each base aligned just right is more work.
Are you erecting the building?
Even if you get their alignment relative to each other perfectly with something like a plywood jig, getting each base aligned just right is more work.
Are you erecting the building?
Yes I will be putting it up myself.
Rusted Nut
Well-known member
Build anchor bolt templates from plywood, 2x4’s etc; pour around the bolts. Use tin foil to cover the threads on the bolts so they don’t get gummed up with concrete.
I’ve done some commercial buildings professionally and I can’t fathom they could ever get most of them right without being in a plywood jig “where they go”prior to starting the pour. There just is not enough time and the dimensions need to be pulled (or shot with survey equipment) to keep the whole thing square and in line. Even their concrete forms will be off, just measuring from their forms will result in lots of inaccuracy.
Good Luck
Good Luck
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
If you were hiring it out, I was going to say to defer to the erectors.
Hope it goes great and you get to aquire at least one new toy in the process.
I can't imagine why epoxy wouldn't work. Just need to allow curing time on the concrete and epoxy
My original plan was to 3D print some fixtures to hold them, and hold them off the ground with some rebar.
Hooked
Well-known member
When we build ours the concrete guys made plywood templates and set the bolts in them prior to pour. I made the mistake of not double checking their measurements. During the build (we did it ourselves) we found one corner template had been set 90 degrees off so I had to cut the bolts and epoxy new ones. All the other except one were dead on. The single bolted brace had bolts off about a 1/4" so had to 'tap' and grind those to fit.
I just got off the phone with the engineer who put together the plans, he said that epoxy would be fine if the holes were at the same depth as he specified for the L bolts. It might be easier to measure and drill the holes afterwards. One less thing to worry about with the pour.
Mistakes happen, but I'm definitely trying to avoid something like that. It's not gunna be a good day if I have to bring the torch out.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Jakeweldsalittle
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That's what I would do, especially since you are going steel and you need all your holes to line up perfectly. A good bit and a hammer drill, easy peasy.
readhead
Well-known member
Twenty five years of erecting metal buildings and I absolutely required that the concrete contractor install templates. On some commercial jobs I was required to provide the templates. Before the pour I would check all of the bolt placements and there would be mistakes from time to time but that gave the contractor time to correct any problems. We always installed the door jam columns with expansion bolts. They are not load bearing and a lot of times we would leave a wall out to move equipment and material in the building.
installing the bolts afterwards is not as easy as you think. It drastically slows down the erecting process and the amount of epoxy and threaded rod you will need is going to get expensive real fast. You won’t be buying hardware store all thread. It will be B-7 grade five AT.
Having the bolts in place will make the job much easier. I would also have the contractor install nuts on the bottom of the template so the bolts would stay plumb during the pour.
installing the bolts afterwards is not as easy as you think. It drastically slows down the erecting process and the amount of epoxy and threaded rod you will need is going to get expensive real fast. You won’t be buying hardware store all thread. It will be B-7 grade five AT.
Having the bolts in place will make the job much easier. I would also have the contractor install nuts on the bottom of the template so the bolts would stay plumb during the pour.
i made plywood templates of each, and screwed them to the forms when the contractors were about ready to pour and kept taking measurements until it was perfect., done that 3 times now myself and think we had to cut and redo 1 anchor. very doable and best in my opinion.
readhead
Well-known member
Everyone seems to think it will be so easy to install bolts after the fact. You still have to layout the holes. We are not talking about a hammer drill and a 1/2” bit. You would be drilling a 7/8” hole up to twenty inches deep, with a good size rotor hammer, probably hitting rebar which will require a rebar eater at probably fifty bucks a pop and then at least half to a complete tube of epoxy. By the way, you are not supposed to cut the rebar. Then wait however long it takes the epoxy to set and then you finally get to put the column up. Use templates.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I was not expecting a need to drill anywhere near that deep. Why so far when a house can get anchored with some 8" titen-hd's?
readhead
Well-known member
Metal building anchor bolts are anywhere between 16”-24”x3/4”. They are securing a column with a very high bending moment.
Cold formed buildings use titan anchors but they spread the load over more frames.
Cold formed buildings use titan anchors but they spread the load over more frames.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Thanks
racecougar
Well-known member
Ya beat me to it. I was going to mention that.
I've taken your advice before, and I'm glad I did because it saved me a huge headache. The broker told me to I'd be fine unloading the building with my tractor. You recommended getting something bigger. I ended up borrowing my neighbors front loader with forks and that was able to unload the whole truck without splitting any of the piles. Unloading it with my tractor would have taken all day as I would have had to split it all up.
Anyways I think I'll take your advice again and make up some templates.
How do you get the template and bolts to not get pushed with the concrete? A picture of an installed template and bolts would be helpful if you have one.
Codyboy
Well-known member
I'm guessing this is an all bolted red iron?
Mine was all welded. At each place where there was an I-beam and the corners, they set steel plates with legs into the wet concrete.
They used these to weld the uprights to.
Mine was all welded. At each place where there was an I-beam and the corners, they set steel plates with legs into the wet concrete.
They used these to weld the uprights to.
Yeah all bolted. The welded option was slightly cheaper but I wanted to do it myself and didn't want the headache.
readhead
Well-known member
Make the templates long enough to screw them to the form. Do not over size the holes. If it is a 3/4” bolt drill a 3/4” hole. When you put the bolts in the template make sure you have enough projection with a nut on the bottom and top of the template. Just before the pour spray the bolts with WD-40 and they will clean up just fine. Check your plans to see if the bolts are to be tied to the rebar.
rmack898
Well-known member
Having been in your shoes before, check the foundation prints for the tolerances of bolt placement, mine were+\- 1/8”.Double check behind the concrete contractor , 42 of the 48 bolts on my foundation were in the wrong place before the pour. Be there for the pour and watch everything. Even a securely fastened bolt template can be bumped and move by a careless pump operator or finisher.
rmack898
Well-known member
I don’t recall the mesh size, I’d have to go back and look at the prints. Your foundation prints should specify mesh size.
Since you’re going to be the erector, the more attention you pay to bolt location and concrete placement, the easier your build will be.
Even though I watched like a hawk, I still had one set of column bolts that got bumped and almost 1/2” off when I started hanging iron.
Since you’re going to be the erector, the more attention you pay to bolt location and concrete placement, the easier your build will be.
Even though I watched like a hawk, I still had one set of column bolts that got bumped and almost 1/2” off when I started hanging iron.
Rusted Nut
Well-known member
Get a piece of 3/4" plywood, sized so you can nail it to the forms. Draw an X in center of bolts, then markout each bolt. Use a nut and washer top and bottom to secure anchor bolts to the plywood. On long heavy bolt, we'd use two pieces of plywood or 2x material to make sure the bolts won't get out of plumb. Set the template, then measure ay least two ways off the center of the X to get it where it needs to be. Figure out some way of nailing the template to the formwork. Did a job in Seattle a few years ago with 1 3/4" x 60" anchor bolts; we used a metal plate to secure the bottom of the bolts to keep them in line as well as a double template at the top.
Codyboy
Well-known member
Just curious how much tolerance is built into a red iron bolted frame?
I see someone mentioned 1/8"
That's an extremely difficult mark to hit if it's a large building. Then add in using dimensional lumber for the forms which can move / swell / shrink etc.
I would think most slabs are not perfectly squared either. I'm sure they're close though.
If using templates would one choose a corner as the chief corner and pull all measurements from it ? Instead of simply measuring at each corner? I say this because what if the form is off 1/8 and the opposing corner is off 1/8 then the whole thing will be out of kilter.
I sure hope you have a top notch concrete crew.
I see someone mentioned 1/8"
That's an extremely difficult mark to hit if it's a large building. Then add in using dimensional lumber for the forms which can move / swell / shrink etc.
I would think most slabs are not perfectly squared either. I'm sure they're close though.
If using templates would one choose a corner as the chief corner and pull all measurements from it ? Instead of simply measuring at each corner? I say this because what if the form is off 1/8 and the opposing corner is off 1/8 then the whole thing will be out of kilter.
I sure hope you have a top notch concrete crew.
bob smith1
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Rookie.....lol Respectfully, you will only do one building via hammer drilling until you realize wet setting is a time saver. Your idea of plywood temps is spot on and it works. You do NOT drop those in until everything is poured, then take the numbered templates out and install them, complete with alignment features that even a caveman could handle.
As an example, plywood sets on top of form and right to the edge, with an alignment line. Columns have oversized holes for a reason.
You have all the time in the world to set the templates on the forms and measure and check 10x.
As an example, plywood sets on top of form and right to the edge, with an alignment line. Columns have oversized holes for a reason.
You have all the time in the world to set the templates on the forms and measure and check 10x.
Now days I would set up my laser at corner shooting 90 deg lines, now you just have to get distance “perfect”. The engineer will approve moderate elongating holes in steel for minor adjustments and erection crew does this all the time. Yes it was harder without lasers!!
bob smith1
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Do it with a total station and you will never go back....lol XYZ within .030" all day long.
Yes my buddy is a surveyor and tells me this! I’m suppose to be retired but keep getting rangled into projects, mostly by family!
bob smith1
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We have totals and GPS equipment. Use for so many things. We just work designs in CAD, and go lay it out, then quality check in progress.
As for anchors, we still will use templates for speed, but then go back and check each bolt position with the gun while wet. this is unless there are very few anchors, then we just put a dimple in the wet crete and stab the anchor and recheck.
But there are places where lasers are too handy, like running level. Only thing more accurate is a water level.