$300 for one ratchet, let's hope so.
First impression of ICON G2 ratchets
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Ohio Andy
Well-known member
Where do I sign up?!
I don't think anyone is answering the phone on that topic @ HF.
I did a video on my tiny YT channel that touched on that as part of the flare-up of the Icon Tool Truck discussion (the ITC Pro bit is at 2:45). But I don't think it will happen. As ever, I think it's something they have examined, done the math and decided it's not part of their strategy. I don't get it, but I really doubt it's ignorance/neglect on their part.
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My long-term impression of these in 1/4 and 3/8: generally excellent ratchets. The only downside is the selector switch is VERY sensitive to any pressure. If you have one hand on the ratchet head holding it on the bolt, it is very easy to change direction if your finger barely touches the selector. If the ratchet head is up against another component in the engine bay, it is very easy to change direction.
Otherwise good ratchets.
Otherwise good ratchets.
That’s a pretty huge “but”…
The "math" might not really work well for the Tech either.
Lose a 3/8 socket and buy a one Snap On replacement for $25, or, spend $35 and get a whole new 12 pc set of the Icon.
They now have 11 extra sockets to lose.
Wrench97
Well-known member
Only problem it's always the same size socket you lose/break......
Agree. I may be alone, but I often hold my ratchets upside down, head in my palm, handle between thumb and forefinger. With that sort of technique, this could be a deal killer. That said, with the utmost respect to @Chipm, this may be an ergo issue unique to him or his use. @Chipm, what say you? Tell us more about how you hold this, how you use it. Are the ones in the stores like yours?
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Hmmm... I haven't had that happen with either of mine yet, but I'm not sure I've used mine like that either. I've got some wrenching to do on multiple of the family cars, so I'll see if I can replicate that.
Part of my spiel was they'd make singles (and other things) available through an "ITC Pro" app for techs, as well as priority replacements, etc.
Very well could be user error or weird ergonomics. It happens with the 1/4" ratchet head between thumb and first two fingers, sort of turning it like a thumb-ratchet or stubby screwdriver. It doesn't happen often, but often enough to mention. Over all I still love the whole set of Icon 1/4s. The 3/8 does not seem to have this problem, and is pretty much indistinguishable from my Dual 80s.
Kaervak
Well-known member
I have the same thing happen with my 1/4 locking flex head Icon ratchet on occasion, a bit annoying but not the end of the world. Aside from that, the Icon G2 ratchets are really good. That 1/4 I use has been my primary ratchet at work for over a year now and has held up quite well despite me beating on it. The 3/8 and 1/2 Icon locking flex heads I have haven't seen anywhere near as much use as the 1/4, but they are quite nice as well.
Different talking point about the Icon ratchets, the locking mechanism on the Icon ratchets are, in my opinion, better than the locking mechanism on the Snap On ratchets I have. The slider/button that Snap On has, I've never liked and the new locking setup I like even less. The switch on the Icons, Matcos, Gearwrench and others is a better design.
blown94conv
Well-known member
And they wouldn’t mention the “Tool truck Quality” as a talking point every chance they get.
I was talking about the business, not the marketing. If HF really were going after the trucks directly, they'd be doing a lot of things differently in terms of how they're selling.
But having used my Icon ratchets (I have several G1 and a couple G2) at the same time as my Snap On and ratchets and my Matco 88, they do as well as the SO and better than the Matco 88.
I'm just an active DIYer, but plenty of folks use Icon completely successfully in their jobs. What's funny is my Ko-ken Z-series ratchet is better than all of them.I’m thinking about this and @Brandon_Lutz post above.
Reminder: HF is not a manufacturer. They probably literally sent a Snap on ratchet to Taiwan and said “copy this but put our name on the head and handle”. Then they likely sent a purchase order for 100,000 units or whatever.
The reason they don’t stock repair parts could well be that they don’t own the design. When they place the next PO, it could go to a different supplier or the supplier could change what they previously shipped, leaving HF with 10,000 obsolete repair kits.
This is one reason I cannot take HF tools seriously and why their lifetime warranty is risky. It’s likely in 5 years, let alone 10 or 20, if you warranty your Icon ratchet, you may get a slightly different tool. It could be better or worse. That’s not generally true with legit tool manufacturers. Whoever manufactured the Gen1 ratchets could be out of business. This is how Harbor Freight tools works. The key is in the name. They import tools from Asia. They probably do not design, manufacture, or perform QA tasks beyond source selection and purchase contracts.
Would you mind expanding on this? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts. I’m guessing increased availability of single sockets/wrenches would be one of the changes you’d have in mind.
From what I’ve seen at work, the one huge advantage of the tool trucks is the cheap, easy credit they offer. A coworker of mine bought the $800 Snapon chair over the (also expensive) $400 Vyper chair because “I can make payments on the Snapon chair”. The allure of cheap, easy credit is very enticing for some. Personally, I sit on a 5-gallon bucket
You make a valid point, but that’s commonplace nowadays. Matco, Cornwell, Mac all sell tons of third-party manufactured tools. Reputable non-tool truck brands like Capri, Astro, Tekton, Sunex, Vim do the same. Snapon really stands alone in that regard.
On the other hand, Icon isn’t really a “flash in the pan” brand anymore. They’ve been out for 8 years now, and HF is clearly committed to the brand. I think it’s safe to presume that you’ll be getting good quality tools for the foreseeable future. Not as good or as nice as Snapon, no, but almost always good enough to get the job done.
rust in the eye
Well-known member
I'll go out on a limb and speculate that the interest rate for that loan bordersFrom what I’ve seen at work, the one huge advantage of the tool trucks is the cheap, easy credit they offer. A coworker of mine bought the $800 Snapon chair over the (also expensive) $400 Vyper chair because “I can make payments on the Snapon chair”. The allure of cheap, easy credit is very enticing for some. Personally, I sit on a 5-gallon bucket
on usary so the net cost for the Snappy chair is indeed VERY dear. Instant gratification always carries a price.Perhaps you could start up a juice loan business at your shop. Sounds like a few are ripe for picking. Just think; Your colleague could have bought that Vyper via Hakeem finance for six easy weekly payments of $100.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
I'm really liking the G2's. I used the 20" 3/8 fixed head recently to get at a hard to reach component. It saved so much aggravation. It's not a ratchet I use often, but glad to have the extra long length on hand for the occasional need. Hard pattern to find just anywhere. I like the direction HF has went with these pro-grade tools.
I also recently grabbed the 3/8 stubby flex that I am looking forward to using.
I also recently grabbed the 3/8 stubby flex that I am looking forward to using.
Dakotadadv8
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The S80A is a great ratchet. May pick up an Icon for curiosity.
Yep. Agree. But let’s not get distracted by the active marketing here on GJ and elsewhere. How long have the icon ratchets been out and what generation are we on? Are the guts backward compatible? How many “generations” of toolboxes are there? I think I’d assume every unique sku is likely a different manufacturer.Would you mind expanding on this? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts. I’m guessing increased availability of single sockets/wrenches would be one of the changes you’d have in mind.
From what I’ve seen at work, the one huge advantage of the tool trucks is the cheap, easy credit they offer. A coworker of mine bought the $800 Snapon chair over the (also expensive) $400 Vyper chair because “I can make payments on the Snapon chair”. The allure of cheap, easy credit is very enticing for some. Personally, I sit on a 5-gallon bucket
You make a valid point, but that’s commonplace nowadays. Matco, Cornwell, Mac all sell tons of third-party manufactured tools. Reputable non-tool truck brands like Capri, Astro, Tekton, Sunex, Vim do the same. Snapon really stands alone in that regard.
On the other hand, Icon isn’t really a “flash in the pan” brand anymore. They’ve been out for 8 years now, and HF is clearly committed to the brand. I think it’s safe to presume that you’ll be getting good quality tools for the foreseeable future. Not as good or as nice as Snapon, no, but almost always good enough to get the job done.
To be clear, the first gen dual 80 ratchets had strength issues and an updated 80A config was released with a revised back plate. But of course you can get rebuild kits for both generations and probably will for a very long time. It’s also been a long time between models. So it’s not exactly like you buy a snap on wrench and it will never ever change.
But as I hinted earlier, this is all apples and oranges, comparing a tool manufacturer to an importer/distributor.
Just really trying to provide one possible explanation why HF is reluctant to offer rebuild kits or breaks up sets to replace a single member and why this may never change.
Money where my mouth is: I think the whole global distribution model is fraught with pitfalls for us. I need to choose major appliances and hvac systems for my barn build. What I’m learning is that premium brands offer lifetime warrantees, but they are parts only and they don’t maintain the parts for long. So if your new Mitsubishi mini split is DOA, you can get a replacement compressor. But in 5 yrs, you may need a whole new unit and the labor to install it could be staggering.
Because these are disposable pieces of **** all of them, I may buy cheaper brands and keep them 100% superficial so they can be easily swapped. No **** hard plumbing or electrical services. All of it will be accessible to a dumpster. This is the eco system we are stuck with and I’m just trying to recognize it and be smart about it.
My advice is similar to @zendriver I think. If you love your G2 Icon ratchet, buy 2 or 3.
More: like some freaky sci fi where evil people clone themselves for spare organs, you technically don’t need multiple (expensive) long flex heads. You could buy the cheapest model using identical guts and keep that just for parts. My toolbox drawer is currently all dual 80 and my 3/8” are all F80A. So I keep a couple rebuild kits on hand that can service all of them. So I’m not recommending doubling your ratchet drawer. Just keeping a few sad clones safe in cold sleep until needed.
(I think I succeeded in making this analogy really weird and a bit sad.)
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KnurledNut
Well-known member
Not quite.
The A revision applied to changes in the flex head versions. It also denoted the change from saying patent pending to a patent number.
I personally had a conversation with someone at Snap-on about this.
You wont find a F80A. Or FL80A. Or FLL80A. etc. They don't exist because there is no revision on the fixed models.
shwarmapolice
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If I had been working in an environment like that in my early 20s I would have been so screwed by a tool truck account. Owe a little bit here, a little bit there until I'm living out Sixteen Tons but Snap-On is the company store.From what I’ve seen at work, the one huge advantage of the tool trucks is the cheap, easy credit they offer. A coworker of mine bought the $800 Snapon chair over the (also expensive) $400 Vyper chair because “I can make payments on the Snapon chair”. The allure of cheap, easy credit is very enticing for some. Personally, I sit on a 5-gallon bucket
Also don't think you can underrate the special feeling of being serviced by a Professional Tool Truck that comes to your work, the guy knows your name, etc.. There aren't many consumer experiences for the non-wealthy with that kind of concierge vibe. (Also why bad dealers will turn people away from brands forever even when the bad dealer is long out of the picture.)
The marketing, the business model differences or my thoughts on what it would look like if HF went more actively after the Tool Truck model?
For marketing, it's just that. All the defensive stuff and shade throwing aside, they throw comparisons to pro tools and most of the time in the various testing the Icon tools have worked just fine. There's enough different testing and enough people who have said "I use these professionally" that it approaches a sample size that I can live with. And in my hands next to my Snap On tools, they've never been anything but great.
For the business model differences, I legit think SO is annoyed by the noise HF generates, but doesn't consider them a threat to their business. If you look at their financials, the bulk of their profit comes from corporate/government contracts and related services. HF isn't even in that solar system. HF clearly isn't trying to arrange their business to be more tech/pro-centric. They're happy to sell to to those folks who come through the retail store doors, but there's nothing I can see that optimizes for pros other than some of the fairly pro-shop tools like smoke machines and the higher-end scanners that gomers like me don't really buy.
If you were talking about how I imagined they could go after the tool trucks more directly (and why I think they won't), it's really easier to just watch the video. But the net of "why not" is it would require a lot of different structure to the back-end of their business and a lot of capital investment that would require to hump a lot of business to make it worthwhile and profitable.
That's why it's so predatory...From what I’ve seen at work, the one huge advantage of the tool trucks is the cheap, easy credit they offer. A coworker of mine bought the $800 Snapon chair over the (also expensive) $400 Vyper chair because “I can make payments on the Snapon chair”. The allure of cheap, easy credit is very enticing for some. Personally, I sit on a 5-gallon bucket
You make a ton of assumptions there, a number of which are kinda questionable.
The biggest of these is probably:
Maybe you think they're lying in their statements, videos, interviews, etc. but very clearly they have more involvement than source selection and contracts. There are too many products in the Icon line that are unique to them and thus they are fully responsible to the customer for (most people don't really care if they own the factory - they own taking care of the customer). It's not a vertical/integrated model. If it were they'd be priced higher, even if they were still manufacturing in Taiwan.
The way HF handles warranty is just as likely to be driven by simplicity and not wanting to stock a bunch of rebuild kits. Seems pretty consistent with their (annoying) minimal support of getting singles and keeping the walk-in/walk-out swapped model.
The Icon ratchets are now on their second generation. The Icon storage is on their first, getting ready to move to their second. Most of the other tools are what they are. Most companies have a pretty good idea what their warranty rate is and do a 'last time buy' to stock their warranty for several years (3 to 7 depending on the type of business and the company). How people feel about their ratchets for example is bizarrely individual. I kinda prefer the G1 (which feels a lot like my Dual 80 stuff while being a fairly conventional design) mechanism to the G2 (which is very different from the Dual-80 in design), but wouldn't be miffed if my G1 had to be replaced by a G2.
HF is clearly committed to the Icon brand/strategy and has been expanding it, so I think it's FUD to insinuate that it might go away. And while you're correct that they contract out their manufacturing, their ratchets and sockets appear to be their exclusive designs. You saying The G2 locking flex ratchets are a lot closer to my Matco88 in design. While the SO mechanism fits in the cavity, it lacks the shoulder at the back of the wheel which could theoretically make it more durable/tough. But whatever - it's not really fair to imagine all the negatives you have up there with literally nothing more than your animus for HF as the basis.
What's funny is he could easily buy 2 and be well-under a single Snap On.
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Snap On does the EXACT same thing, I've had plenty of SO tools, ratchets in particular, that when they finally gave up were longer in production and replaced with current equivalent. EXACTLY what HF does, case in point, the HF G1 ratchets are now being warrantied out with G2 replacements.
I can still get a kit for a 60yr old Snap On Ratchet…and it’s made in the USA.
i have screwdrivers I really love. Yellow hard handles. I bought them probably 30 yrs ago. I can get replacement handles, blades or complete screwdrivers. Note, Instincts replaced the hard handles probably more than 10 yrs ago. Yet I can get spares of 30 yr old obsolete models. That’s NOTHING like HF.
Not saying this is a huge deal. It’s the difference between a distributor and a manufacturer. A lot of our major appliances are made with globally sourced components and they can be difficult to replace.
I have a 25yr old Snap on toolbox. It’s casters and drawer slides are still available and still made in the USA.
I think if you don’t care, it doesn’t matter. I really like my tools and may not be thrilled to have an F80 replaced with a cynergy. I like my dual 80s. I don’t love all the new talon pliers.
Cruzan80
Well-known member
I think a large source of disagreements is that SnapOn=/=All Tool Trucks. So when people are complaining that Icon "isn't Tool Truck" in some way, bringing up only SnapOn ignores the fact that people can't always get rebuild kits, drawer slides, etc from Mac/Matco/Cornwell/etc. They have changed lineups as well. Icon isn't SnapOn, and I know they imitate lots of cosmetics from SnapOn. But saying "Tool Truck" and only providing SnapOn examples is not a 1-to-1 comparison.
Getting 30yr old screwdriver parts is not true of virtually anyone else, HF or otherwise. Western Forge shut down, so Craftsman drivers aren't the same. Ideal shut down the "premium" handle black/red design (that was also under other colors). Who else is making screwdrivers the exact same for the last 30yrs (even manufacturing companies)?
1Bad55Chevy
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Why would anyone want a 30 something tooth ratchet?
Only reason you have one of those is because it was handed down. Professionals are not looking for those **** box ratchets and any import ratchet made today will output preform those. Honestly who cares that SO still services tools that are irrelevant? By servicing that junk they are not supporting their ACTUAL customers but just the people buying busted **** on FBM and estate sales.
Koken made beautiful ratchets that weren’t fine toothed. Wait. Who am I talking to? I don’t need to tell you that sometimes we like a tool because we just like it. We’ve used it for 20 yrs and it’s like a friend, fits our hand etc etc.
Look, and this is my point: If you love your new G2 Icon ratchets. If over time you find they are breaking in and just running great. You very likely will not be able to get rebuild kits for it and you may not be able to replace it. You may not like the gen 3 ratchet or the gen 4. Or the gen 2 from a different supplier with the other sku. It was the same with Craftsman and now people pay money for specific vintage Craftsman they felt were better than other vintages.
Icon isn’t like Snap on and it never will be. If you find a vintage you like, buy spares! You may never see that quality or design again. And HF isn’t going to sell rebuild kits. Their business model doesn’t really work like that.
This is why I don’t like dim sum restaurants. When a dumpling that I love comes by, I want to eat 20 of those. I don’t want to wait 45 minutes before I get a chance at another one.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
Snap-on guts will work in the G2.
Oddly enough, Snap On guts work in Snap On ratchets as well…
KnurledNut
Well-known member
Bahco too.
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
So I’ve been playing around with the Gen2s in store and I’ve tried out a few from the guys at work. I don’t get the hype. They’re heavy and all of them have stiff internals. I go back to my Matco Eighty8s or the Snappys and I just don’t see how you can sit there and tell me they are on the same level. I’m not saying they don’t perform, I’m just saying that they aren’t nearly as nice to use.
Ohio Andy
Well-known member
I was on a Matco truck just to try the Eight8s, I bought more than one... I was very impressed with the feel.
Same. I have only one Icon ratchet. It's the little 1/4" roto which is not the subject here. I think all ratchets "break in" with use and feel different than they do in the store (just like shoes!). So I think it's not super fair to compare store ratchets with working ratchets.
But that's a door that swings two ways. To say the Icon's are "nice" means you have something to compare them to. Being as they are clones of Snap on dual80, my assumption is that people reviewing or....have all used or own broken in dual80s and are saying the Icons are comparable or.....
Not policing the thread, everyone gets to share their thoughts.
From my knot hole, I'm unwilling to say much about my Icon ratchet because I just haven't used it enough. For the few things I have used it on, I thought the same as @CHI_Tool&Die, it's too stiff. But it could or will loosen up with more hours. Can't compare a ratchet with less than 10 hours on it, with ratchets with 1000s of hours on them.
Ohio Andy
Well-known member
I feel like you could be talking about the SnapOn Cynergy ratchets.
I am still on the fence about those. Have not used them enough to say, I just keep using other ratchets instead; and I do not use them often enough to have them in a strong rotation.