I could do it with either but having it in hand means I would have to buy it first which I am trying to avoid if it's not going to work. Sure I could return it, but rather test the waters with knowledge and maybe someone's experience first. For thos wondering it's amazon chinese. There are others that are more expensive but who could say they are better or worse.
it's quite common that people to think you need 3 wire plus ground for 240 volts
- Thread starter The Cobbler
- Start date
micromind
Well-known member
I wonder how much RV stuff gets blown up before they figure out it won’t work
I am aware its not 120 Volt. I am looking at using it to go to the spider box which has a 4 conductor SS2-50 plug which is for RV and offshore connection of 50 amp 240 volt. I was just unsure if the nema 6-50 to nema 14-50 adapter would allow it to work. Seems like the general consensus is no it won't.
I had not seen that but thanks for point it out. I guess I overlooked that part. Maybe some of the pricier units have different RV capabilities. I wish my plug in the garage had been wired with the 6/3 conductor originally but it wasn't. I could probably change it with an external sub panel and may do that at some point to better suit using the cable without adapters. I was kind of looking at that being the weak link in my plan overall. I was just trying to figure out what happened between the neutral and ground in this kind of adapter and seems like being an Amazon unit its a high risk item and didn't want to waste money on chinesium. I figure I am going to be at about the limit of the amp load on the length of this run so not wanting stuff to melt down because of chinese junk.
I think it was a way for outlet makers to force people to spend money on needless wiring and outlets. There are plenty of 3 plug ev adapters out there that are safe already
Probably a lot, that is why I am trying to prevent doing damage in the process.
CGT80
Well-known member
So, you actually put your eyes on the conductors, or are you are assuming there are only 3 in the box? The two are not the same thing.
Does it have metallic conduit for the circuit, non metallic, or romex? Does it have a ground conductor?
The only way you will get a neutral with the green adapter or spider box is if one of them bonds the neutral to the ground. It could work that way (and has been proven to work, but don't go risking life if you don't fully understand and accept the possible consequences) but obviously is not the proper way to do it.
How much load will you apply and is it 240v too, or just 120v loads?
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
You'll also find things marked with the CE symbol (similar to UL in the states), but the symbol looks wrong - and wording like "CE Compliant" - then you read the super tiny print buried somewhere it's not Conformité Européenne but Chinese Export.....
UL now has a hologram on their compliance label because they were getting counterfieted pretty regularly....
One of the earlier links bring you a yellow molded cord version.
Someone who gave that product one star, cut open the 14-50 end and only found 3 wires. There is a picture.
Other crafty wording from mfr: "our ul listed products provide safety"........Ok, sure. What about the ones that didn't get listed?
Packaging has no ul or etl mention.
A molded cord end shows etl symbol. That could be simply a convenient residual from the mold used to make that cap end for a straight through extension cord, not this adapter. Letting the consumer assume it is for the entire assembly.
Typical scamazon marketing.
Someone who gave that product one star, cut open the 14-50 end and only found 3 wires. There is a picture.
Other crafty wording from mfr: "our ul listed products provide safety"........Ok, sure. What about the ones that didn't get listed?
Packaging has no ul or etl mention.
A molded cord end shows etl symbol. That could be simply a convenient residual from the mold used to make that cap end for a straight through extension cord, not this adapter. Letting the consumer assume it is for the entire assembly.
Typical scamazon marketing.
Yeah I've pulled the plug on the wall and then also double checked in the breaker panel. The place was built in 2018 so I thought by code it should have been a 4 conductor but I guess there was some provision at the time for if it is a welder circuit it could be the 3 conductor setup. I have regrets about not actually having a conversation with the electrician when it was being built. I told the builder I originally wanted more 240 outlets in the garage and I did say 3 50 amp circuits but I guess it never got passed on to the electrician and when they did the wiring and sheetrock I was out of town on business. I thought when I said I wanted three he would have followed my instructions but oh well. BYH the time I got a chance to come by and inspect it would have been a major deal to redo the electrical subpanel because it didn't have enough space at that point. I've kind of outgrown the garage a little anyways so not a huge loss. I do have a second 240/30 amp circuit for adding a mini split but I guess they thought that was enough.
Anywhooo's,
Looks like the cheap Scamazon adapter method won't work. I pretty much suspected that but just wanted to field some opinions. That said I do already have a 6 breaker 100 Amp subpanel I was going to use for the shop before I decided to keep it "off-grid".
Maybe the better route is to just disconnect the garage Nema 6-50 line and plug from the breaker and just keep it there so if I sell or move I can reconnect it and install the subpanel as a surface mount near the breaker panel in the garage. Then upgrade that breaker to 100 amps and like I said above, if I ever leave or move, can just remove it and patch up the holes with a little wall patch and a knockout cover in the breaker panel. That would allow me to use the "RV cables" directly with a nema 14-50 outlet for the offshower power line to the spider box in the shop and then I can add 2 Nema 6-50 outlets there as well, with each on it's own breaker. I already have most of the copper conductor and receptacles and probably just need some of the Grey PVC and fittings for the fit and finish of things.
It's worth noting at some point I am going to probably add a solar generator into the mix for all my 120 needs to just be able to have the shop running on it's own during the day. I may dabble at night or in the evenings but that is where the solar generator will store for the time I am out there while offsetting during the day. I'm not going to big, probably just around 2400 watts but one of the units that can be linked if I need to add a bank and reserve the 50 amp spiderbox for just running my oven or plasma table, and at least have some 120 circuits if the weather is not solar compatible. I'm in central TX here so not a lot of that but there are a few days here and there.
I'm wanting to add probbaly the largest BTU mini-split that can run off 120 so I can tap into that solar setup and not overburden the spiderbox since I am pushing the boundary on length and voltage drop with the length of the power cable. I'll probably have a laptop for a plasma table, some battery chargers, and some kind of BT soundbar or audio setup for music and stuff as well as a power door opener so I want it to have constant power and not have the offshore power wire connected when not in use. I don't think I listed it yet but this is the spiderbox I am mentioning, just in case it might prove useful to someone who needs a similar solution in a somewhat remote spot from their main power lug - I can't say if it is "made in the USA" but their corporate offices are in Florida and now days I'm not sure there is really a difference in made in USA vs assembled with offshore parts in the USA but it does have its own breaker system and the 50 amp twistlock connectors so just want to keep the safety system intact
Thanks for the feedback guys and I appreciate it. I'm trying to spend right once because I know when it comes to some items I'd rather not find out the hard way and also not spend money twice having to back track.
I'm wanting to add probbaly the largest BTU mini-split that can run off 120 so I can tap into that solar setup and not overburden the spiderbox since I am pushing the boundary on length and voltage drop with the length of the power cable. I'll probably have a laptop for a plasma table, some battery chargers, and some kind of BT soundbar or audio setup for music and stuff as well as a power door opener so I want it to have constant power and not have the offshore power wire connected when not in use. I don't think I listed it yet but this is the spiderbox I am mentioning, just in case it might prove useful to someone who needs a similar solution in a somewhat remote spot from their main power lug - I can't say if it is "made in the USA" but their corporate offices are in Florida and now days I'm not sure there is really a difference in made in USA vs assembled with offshore parts in the USA but it does have its own breaker system and the 50 amp twistlock connectors so just want to keep the safety system intact
Thanks for the feedback guys and I appreciate it. I'm trying to spend right once because I know when it comes to some items I'd rather not find out the hard way and also not spend money twice having to back track.
Hohn
Well-known member
#oddlyspecificreferences
rlitman
Well-known member
The EVSE supplies 240V to the vehicle, BUT it also verifies that the ground is good (so that the chassis cannot become energized), and it needs a separate neutral AND ground to do that (oddly enough it does not need 120V). Interestingly, that is true even for 120V Level I charging. I found out the hard way that a friend couldn't charge their vehicle on a cord reel I had, because the grounding connection was not good enough (that reel had two slip rings, and used the center screw for ground), while a commercial cord reel with three slip rings worked.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
SS2-50P/S are less common than 14-50(L)P/R or 6-50(L)P/R. The SS2-50 should have ground on the "shell" of the plug.
I know of no way to go from a 6-50R (typical welder plug, 240V, no neutral) to a 5-nnR (120VAC, 1/2 of split phase, w/ground) and be code compliant. (You do not want current on a ground connection.) Ground on a 5-nnR is not necessary, if the receptacle is AFTER a GFCI !
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nadogail
Well-known member
Things in Italy can be expected to be different from what we are accustomed to Stateside. Different is not automatically wrong; just different.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
a nema 6-50r has a ground. it does NOT have a neutral.
a nema 5-xxR is NOT split phase as its only 120v
dcg9381
Well-known member
All the EVSE chargers we have (3) are 14-50. Seems to be most common.
Can confirm that they are super neutral/ground picky as I've tried powering them with isolated inverters. You can buy EVSE's that work with a NEMA 6-50, but I don't see a lot of them.
Snapped-off
Well-known member
Just need Line, Neutral, and Ground and you're good to go for 240V.
In the 50 HZ world yes since it's a line to neutral voltage, unlike North America, where 240V or 208V is a line to line voltage.
Snapped-off
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure Indiana is still part of North America, and we're using 60hz.
Line, neutral & ground will only get you 120V in the US.
Snapped-off
Well-known member
That's correct for 240/120. 415/240 gets you 240V L-N.
Aren't you one of the electricians here?
CGT80
Well-known member
So you want to be vague as possible and throw some 3 phase stuff that doesn't even seem real common (seems data centers use it), in a necrothread that was brought back and is only discussing single phase?
How stupid. You should have stated with the first part that it can be done with 3 phase, rather than just trying to screw with people........since it is outside all the other posts from what I recall reading.
dave*99
Well-known member
I installed an Emporia Vue EVSE. It has a 14-50 plug. It has a 3 wire cord. And yes the 14-50 is molded onto that 3 wire cord. There is no neutral wire in the cord. The cord is also removable so you can hardwire the unit. There are 3 terminals inside. L-L-G
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
Yep, and they ain't changed in the 3 years since I posted that...
Before I learned how to do household wiring decades back, I kinda knew but didn't, so I did a LOT of reading, practice, and double checking with various devices.
Here it's similar but different but yeah, I spoke to that back in 2023... lots of learning, working with a (retired) electrician here, and asking a LOT of questions.
JackOfDiamonds
Well-known member
NEC allows you to use metallic conduit as ground, so it's true that you only need 2. My lathe run consists of two 12ga THHN wires in 3/4 EMT. Perfectly safe and code compliant.
dave*99
Well-known member
I can't promise the is the exact listing. But it sure looks like it. If the neutral were completely missing, this cord would function properly with the Emporia Vue EVSE that I posted. The adapter is not good for an RV as others have said. The description calls out it can be used with a dryer. Not good for many reasons.
NEMA 6-50P to NEMA 14-50R EV Charger Adapter Cord, 50 Amp 3 Prong Plug to 4 Prong Female, Generator Dryer Welder EV Charger Power Cord Adapter, Outlet with Grip Handle, STW, 6AWG, 250V, 1FT
Sold for $12 | Retail: $18.49 | NEMA 6-50P to NEMA 14-50R EV Charger Adapter Cord, 50 Amp 3 Prong Plug to 4 Prong Female, Generator Dryer Welder EV Charger Power Cord Adapter, Outlet with Grip Handle, STW, 6AWG, 250V, 1FT | Phoenix, AZ
TRWham
Well-known member
I think that would be because it's common to provide a 14-50 receptacle for EVSEs because some do need the neutral, thus it makes sense to include a 14-50P even if the unit is 240 V only.
Which make/model do? I'd like to be on the lookout for them, jic.
75gmck25
Well-known member
Some of the confusion may be based on the EV installation guides.
My Chargepoint EV is available with 6-50 (3 wire) or 14-50 (4 wire) plugs, or a hardwired cable. When I installed the hardwired version I found that inside the cable whip and at the EV “head” or holder, there is no neutral wire connection. The charger only needs the black and red wires that provide 120 volts each, and a green or copper ground wire.
If you do buy the plug-in version that has a 4 wire plug, I assume the neutral wire is still not needed to get 240 volts. I don’t know if they cross it over internally and connect it to ground.
My Chargepoint EV is available with 6-50 (3 wire) or 14-50 (4 wire) plugs, or a hardwired cable. When I installed the hardwired version I found that inside the cable whip and at the EV “head” or holder, there is no neutral wire connection. The charger only needs the black and red wires that provide 120 volts each, and a green or copper ground wire.
If you do buy the plug-in version that has a 4 wire plug, I assume the neutral wire is still not needed to get 240 volts. I don’t know if they cross it over internally and connect it to ground.
JackOfDiamonds
Well-known member
I don't think any EVSEs require neutral. The 14-50 receptacle just became the convention for EV charging because it was the most common 50A receptacle used in North America by far. A 6-50 would have done just as well for EVs, but residential electricians don't just carry 6-50 receptacles around in their vans. They install 14-50's every day. Plus, in some edge cases an existing 14-50 range receptacle could be directly used for EV charging without modification. I don't know many people who have ranges in their garages, but I'm sure somebody does.
When I wired up my 14-50, I included a neutral wire without thinking about it. Partly because then the receptacle can do double-duty as an RV receptacle. If the EVSE doesn't use the neutral wire, I don't care.
I assume it's not code-compliant to install a 14-50R without the neutral wire. I'm sure it's been done before by people who know they are using it only for EV charging.
Historically, clothes dryers were wired without neutral wires, but then in 1996 they had to migrate to the neutral wire, and this transition is STILL happening today as people install dryers in old houses. Sure, we could have done EV charging with no neutral wire because a neutral wire is not required TODAY. But starting out EV charging from the beginning with a neutral wire avoids a dryer-like boondoggle in the future.
EVSE's that have 14-50 plugs on them don't use the neutral prong at all. As others have already found out, they have a cord with only 3 wires, directly molded to a 14-50 plug with 4 prongs. The neutral prong is present on the plug, but it's just not connected to anything at all.
When I wired up my 14-50, I included a neutral wire without thinking about it. Partly because then the receptacle can do double-duty as an RV receptacle. If the EVSE doesn't use the neutral wire, I don't care.
I assume it's not code-compliant to install a 14-50R without the neutral wire. I'm sure it's been done before by people who know they are using it only for EV charging.
Historically, clothes dryers were wired without neutral wires, but then in 1996 they had to migrate to the neutral wire, and this transition is STILL happening today as people install dryers in old houses. Sure, we could have done EV charging with no neutral wire because a neutral wire is not required TODAY. But starting out EV charging from the beginning with a neutral wire avoids a dryer-like boondoggle in the future.
EVSE's that have 14-50 plugs on them don't use the neutral prong at all. As others have already found out, they have a cord with only 3 wires, directly molded to a 14-50 plug with 4 prongs. The neutral prong is present on the plug, but it's just not connected to anything at all.
TRWham
Well-known member
I guess this is your snarky way of saying none do, and it's fair to say I know of none. However, as a contractor, we have been guided to install 14-50 receptacles and it seems many or most level 2 EVSEs are provided with the option of a 14-50 plug or hardwiring. I have been told this is because some units need 120 V for internal purposes. This may or may not be true, but Leviton, Hubbell and others offer 14-50 devices specifically for EV use, and it seems odd that the entire industry would support a standard that is unnecessary.
Correct, a 14-50R must be wired with all 4 conductors as any type of load can be plugged into it. Without a neutral back to the panel, 120v loads connected across both hots would be put in series and likely burn out.
This is the entire point of NEMA plug/recept configurations. It defines the voltage, phase, amperage, # poles and #wires that it capable of safely providing to a load.
What is on the plug end could be something less required than at the recept. E.G. 240v only (this thread topic), 120/240v 4-wire loads, or even 120v loads( not that I know of any 40/50a 120v loads, but possible).
- The issue with the adapter product's description is that it doesn't clearly state that it can't be used with 120v loads.
- I doubt if has any permanent markings on it to further that message.
- Then, there are always the smart guys, who would say hey this fits in that so it must be ok. Let's check.
This is why there won't be a UL or ETL approval for this adapter.
Nope. Not snarky (trust me). If there are evse products that do require it, I would like to know. I haven't seen one yet. Although I've wired several, it has only been 3 different models. Stuff changes every day.....and maybe you had found one.
This is exactly why I get the make/model from customer and RTFM before I quote or do an install.
It was already speculated earlier in this thread why the 14-50 may have been chosen by the industry. Compare the hard-wiring requirements against the plugged version and you'd know if the 4th wire is needed into the evse. A 14-50R must always have a separate neutral and ground. Doesn't matter what it is for.
TRWham
Well-known member
I missed that, but it's logical. That or there was an early expectation that they might want the neutral at some point so the 14-50 was chosen for potential future use. The only waste is the 4th wire so I suppose it's not a major concern and does offer flexibility regardless of the reasoning.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Pre 1996 dryers and ranges were wired without a ground. The frame of the appliance was bonded to the neutral. I just happen to have a 10-30/10-50P sitting on the shelf in front of me. 125/250 volt, non grounding. The most common cable used was either 10/3 or 8/3 without a grounding conductors. If 10/3, 8/3, or 6/3 with ground was used, the ground was either pushed to the back of the box (hopefully) or cut off, screwing the next guy.
Attachments
The statement in bold is very inaccurate, dryers have always needed a neutral for the motor, timer,& on some models a drum light, and the frame of the appliance was bonded to the neutral, what changed was the NEC no longer allowed that & a 4-wire receptacle was required.
dave*99
Well-known member
Agreed. Many folks don’t understand there were 3 wire receptacles that were 120/240 with L-L-N. And 3 wire 240 with L-L-G. 4 wire will be L-L-N-G and can provide 120/240 with ground.
OP
I don't think Canada ever had that , at least I've never seen it and our first drier was in the late 70's, it has a 14-30
I remember being at my now ex's friend in Syracuse NY in the mid 90's and seeing the drier plug, I thought it was odd .
this is extra fun when you come across a stacked washer dryer fed off a 10-30 and a 5-15. better hope it's not fed from a sub-panel.