my spiderbox has a CS6375 inlet on it. so now i have a 14-50 to CS63 adapter, and a 100' SOOW CS63 cable, and all my big toys are either 14-50 or CS63.
it's quite common that people to think you need 3 wire plus ground for 240 volts
- Thread starter The Cobbler
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
line and neutral in the US is 120v....
OccupantRJ
Well-known member
Before I retired from factory life I always ran a ground inside all conduit I installed because the company paid for the wire along with my salary and I could guarantee some careless drone worker was going to knock loose a conduit joint somewhere on something and not bother telling anyone about the damage. I had a contact pocket device that simply gets touched to a machine to tell if it is properly grounded.
I can't promise the is the exact listing. But it sure looks like it. If the neutral were completely missing, this cord would function properly with the Emporia Vue EVSE that I posted. The adapter is not good for an RV as others have said. The description calls out it can be used with a dryer. Not good for many reasons.
NEMA 6-50P to NEMA 14-50R EV Charger Adapter Cord, 50 Amp 3 Prong Plug to 4 Prong Female, Generator Dryer Welder EV Charger Power Cord Adapter, Outlet with Grip Handle, STW, 6AWG, 250V, 1FT
Sold for $12 | Retail: $18.49 | NEMA 6-50P to NEMA 14-50R EV Charger Adapter Cord, 50 Amp 3 Prong Plug to 4 Prong Female, Generator Dryer Welder EV Charger Power Cord Adapter, Outlet with Grip Handle, STW, 6AWG, 250V, 1FT | Phoenix, AZwww.nellisauction.com
That isn't the one I was looking at but the one I was looking at was on amazon and probably similar or the same given the pricing. I think it would have been fine if I was just running downstream to my powder coat oven or a similar 3 prong device. Wanting to run the spider box off it probably would cause me issues with the GFCI until I get a proper panel installed. I need the 120 right now more than 240 output so trying to avoid throw cash at a failure of an experiment. I'm existing off a HD 120 extension cord right now but pretty sure I won't be able to run my portable 12k midea AC unit off it and I know I certainly won't be able to run anything additional off it other than that.
whateg01
Well-known member
How much more are your taxes if it's no longer a storage shed. Seems like a huge hassle to avoid a few bucks
Snapped-off
Well-known member
Except for when it's not?
whateg01
Well-known member
What point are you trying to prove by pretending that what you are describing is remotely relevant to this discussion? All you do by continuing to insist that 240 uses a hot and a neutral in the USA is confuse new people who don't know any better. Does it exist? Yes. Is it relevant? Not at all.
CGT80
Well-known member
This is where I was going, when I asked what conductors were behind that 6-50r and whether it was metallic conduit.
I knew that NEC allowed it in the past, but was not sure if it is still allowed, plus some people prefer a dedicated ground wire instead of all the connection points that can exist with conduit.
Code, past code, and what works are all different things.
CGT80
Well-known member
Line to neutral is often 277 volt as well.
It also is not relevant to this thread. A smart person wouldn't waste time either trying to show off or just picking nits for the sake of arguing.
How are your comments helpful or relevant to the topic in this thread?
Maybe you should go start an electrical trivia thread......
Snapped-off
Well-known member
No less relevant than what ya'll are discussing in a thread about a heater. Read the thread title.
whateg01
Well-known member
If you say so
CGT80
Well-known member
My grandmother had a big shed as a workshop. There was a post with a receptacle outside it, like for an RV. The shed plugged in and was still considered movable and not a permanent structure.
Year over year who knows but considering up front the electricians quoted me 15K to install a meter loop I'll start there. I'm also in the city so there is codes to be followed and you need a licensed sparky for all the inspections. After that figure out whatever the county wants to asses and charge over the years I will still be living here.. I'll pass.
Side note.. The electricians had to be high AF when they quoted me that but I didn't bother to get a second quote after that session to be honest.
Right now I have a grand total of $620 invested and maybe another 250 to 300 if I do go ahead and add the subpanel in my garage with the wiring, plugs, conduit and other nick-nacks.
I have the spider box on the way as well as the other proper connectors to go in and out of it so right now the 20$ mystery is if I can use the adapter and at this point I can experiment with the 14-50 to 6-50 adapter on the offshore cables I have. I just went ahead and bought it along with the spider box and stuff. I figure for the time being my powder coat oven is still in the garage, since I have been holding off moving it to the shop (have to move a few things around and get a buddy to help me push and pull it) and I can move the section of that test circuit out in the driveway and flip the breakers and see if the GFCI's trip on the spider box. If somehow it doesn't then I will plug the SS2-50 adapter for the output in and plug in my oven and give it a test.
Down the road when I do the solar I will probably have 1500 invested in that.
Still plenty less then 15k as the beginner entry.
OP
thinking more on this, our stoves & driers were basically hard wired with no plug & outlets till the late 70's or early 80's .
if you wanted to move them you had to disconnect the wire from the terminals
but what would happen if I wired up my 3ø heater on split phase and landed the neutral?
it's wired delta, btw.
If someone was dealing with 480/277V or in Canukistan, 600/347V there might be a problem, but in the scope of this thread it's not a issue.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
so your residence has some exotic electrical service? please do share
Cruzan80
Well-known member
I think the bigger issue is that he keeps trying to claim it is relevant to the thread title. Even if someone were to need 240V Hot/Neutral (in a super specialized 3ph service using only one leg), they would still only need two wires for it (plus ground). So not sure what he would use the third wire for, just like the OP states!
OccupantRJ
Well-known member
I did the same with my first small workshop in my parent’s back yard. The electrical inspector who lived around the corner suggested it.
Our old dryer was from the 60s and had a ground and was also hard wired. The first time I heard of a dryer having a plug I thought it was strange too.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
code requires the EGC/ground wire, so you do need 3, unless one doesnt compare about code compliance and safety
TRWham
Well-known member
You would get 240 V on one coil, and 120 V on the other 2, and about 50% of the heat.
funny, that's what I get with two wires!
nadogail
Well-known member
My Welder and table saw are Connected to my 200 Amp service panel. The neutral and the Ground are tied together in the main panel, but are separated in the Sub Panels.
When I extended three phase 208-240 volt circuits i typically pulled in 5 conductors; 3 hots, a neutral and a Ground.
When I extended three phase 208-240 volt circuits i typically pulled in 5 conductors; 3 hots, a neutral and a Ground.
JackOfDiamonds
Well-known member
Many types of metallic conduit can be used as EGC. A low resistance ground is required. A ground wire is not.
NEC 250.118
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Exactly where in 250.118(A)(1) is that stated?
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
the conduit would be counted as the third wire since its being used as the EGC but the code you cited is incorrect. saying only 2 wires are needed and nothing else is incorrect, which is what I was correcting
When using flexible metallic conduits as egc, only good for circuits 20A or less. 6' or less. Otherwise need a ground wire.
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sparky 1971
Well-known member
Unless something has changed without me knowing about it, that's only for FMC. At least, it better be; I just installed a 200 amp 208 volt three phase feeder and used the EMT for my EGC.
I did mean flexible metallics. (I fix)
JackOfDiamonds
Well-known member
250.118(4)
sparky 1971
Well-known member
250.118(A)(4) states EMT is an acceptable EGC. 250.118(B) states GEC's can't be used as EGC's and there is no #4.
Below is the quote that I originally quoted.
A ground wire is not what? Going by what you said, it appears you are stating a ground wire is not an egc.
JackOfDiamonds
Well-known member
A metallic raceway can often serve as a equipment grounding conductor, such that a dedicated ground wire is not required. Common cases include a 240v circuit in EMT, which requires only two wires. I am not an electrician I just play one on the Internet. Consult your local AHJ.
Well, I ignited a flurry of code quoting and discussion outside the scope of my question, which wasn't my desire, so sorry about that. Circling back to my original question on this post, I did get the spider box and the adapter plug to test it all out. The neutral is definitely left open and unconnected on the adapter.
The box sees 240 at the breaker inside and it does pass through the 240 volts on the pass through. They just tapped 3 of the 6 breakers off each out leg of the main 50 amp breaker. It's only seeing about 100 volts off each plug into the 120 outlets and it gets weird as you switch one breaker or the other. Maybe someone can describe to me why this happens in a GFCI circuit. Is it backfeeding? Obviously it won't run my portable AC because it's not getting enough voltage and just beeps an error. I am sure it is because it doesn't have the nuetral connected through the adapter.
None of the GFCI test buttons work with my plug tester, or on the receptacles, breakers, or the AC GFCI either. The voltage in from the main breaker and to the top of each breaker is a clean 120 volts, so It looks like I need to do the subpanel and get a longer 4 conductor offshore cable, which is what I wanted to test before I spent money on any more cables.
I ultimately didn't buy much, just the adapter, and I may have a a use for it outside of this experiment.
I cleared out a work space on the shop floor and made sure no combustibles were near by in case stuff got melty or worse, but I guess my question ultimately is what gives the erratic voltage? Is it because it is backfeeding through the "ground" and doeesn't have a clean path on the nuetral? I can wire things minimally for welders all day long but as soon as the GFCI and nutral circuit come into play I am not sure how they allow the 120 volt and what can cause the erratic voltage.
Thanks for any explanation but if we can keep it simple I would prefer that over code quoting...
The box sees 240 at the breaker inside and it does pass through the 240 volts on the pass through. They just tapped 3 of the 6 breakers off each out leg of the main 50 amp breaker. It's only seeing about 100 volts off each plug into the 120 outlets and it gets weird as you switch one breaker or the other. Maybe someone can describe to me why this happens in a GFCI circuit. Is it backfeeding? Obviously it won't run my portable AC because it's not getting enough voltage and just beeps an error. I am sure it is because it doesn't have the nuetral connected through the adapter.
None of the GFCI test buttons work with my plug tester, or on the receptacles, breakers, or the AC GFCI either. The voltage in from the main breaker and to the top of each breaker is a clean 120 volts, so It looks like I need to do the subpanel and get a longer 4 conductor offshore cable, which is what I wanted to test before I spent money on any more cables.
I ultimately didn't buy much, just the adapter, and I may have a a use for it outside of this experiment.
I cleared out a work space on the shop floor and made sure no combustibles were near by in case stuff got melty or worse, but I guess my question ultimately is what gives the erratic voltage? Is it because it is backfeeding through the "ground" and doeesn't have a clean path on the nuetral? I can wire things minimally for welders all day long but as soon as the GFCI and nutral circuit come into play I am not sure how they allow the 120 volt and what can cause the erratic voltage.
Thanks for any explanation but if we can keep it simple I would prefer that over code quoting...
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whateg01
Well-known member
Huh?
dave*99
Well-known member
Go to google or GJ and read up on what happens when you have an open neutral on your house. That’s what’s going on in your spider box.
On your 120V receptacles you have the possibility of 240V appearing on them. Without a neutral, your 120v loads are placed in series and they can receive anywhere between 0v and 240v.
Always undesirable.
Basic electrical circuit theory was given as well as some code along the way in the last 118 posts.
In post 32, I tried to quickly explain the open neutral and how various loads can effect the voltages "applied" to different loads and how changing connected loads impacts measured voltages dropped across each series load. (Maybe even earlier than post 32, possibly someone else explained it too, but I aint reading through this crazy thread again.)
Using the pic below and the 2 hots from your box, connect 4 bulb holders as shown. The "neutral" does not hook up to anything from the source nor the ground wire. (Do connect all 4 bulb holders to together as shown.)
- Put identical 100w bulbs in A & B. Leave C & D empty. Each bulb drops the voltage equally. (240/2 =120). Measure across each socket with your voltmeter. (If you also measure across C&D sockets at this time, each has 120v present.)
- Changing nothing else, put a 100w bulb in C. What voltage do you measure across C? About 80v. Voltage across A is 80v and across B is 160v now.
- Changing nothing else, put a 60w bulb in D. Measure voltages across each fixture socket now. Voltage across A and C fixtures is 102v. Voltage across B and D fixtures is 138v.
- Just for giggles, remove bulbs B & C. What do you measure now?
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Thanks for the info. I do understand the reasons and issues but just not sure why the erratic voltages I was seeing and how that never adds up. It seems to me you would see all of it instead of 100 volts. I did do some googling and you know sometimes it's about how you ask google the question as to what results you get but I was able to figure out the 100 volts was a symptom of the unconnected or floating neutral in a lot of cases.
I've figured out I am going to just run a "temporary" 6/4 SOOW pigtail in place of the current welder socket and wiring to a surface mount 14-50 plug. It's probably only going to be about a 1 foot run between the bottom of the box and the top of the plug. That will give me the ability to properly operate this spider box I have out to the shop and then at a little later date and time I can adjust the "temporary" sub panel that I disconnected when I started having the shop built. If I ever decide to sell and move then I can pull it off and disconnect, reconnect the original circuit, and patch up the whole with drywall shmooo. That will probably be if I win the lottery or my disability stuff kicks in but I'm not holding my breath on either, lol.
whateg01
Well-known member
I'm guessing you still don't really understand it.
I don't think I understand what you are saying. Do you mean a receptacle? I don't think there is such a thing as a "surface mount 14-50 plug". What is the pigtail plugging into? Or are you just going to run the SOOW into the breaker box and have a "cord" hanging out of it?