Between 265 & 485 SQ/FT 1950s Craftsman Garage retro remodel

Titaniumboy · Jun 18, 2012

Red Leader,

I hope that the small grinder works for you, but I fear it may not. I had my garage floor epoxied by "professionals" about six years ago. They used a small grinder also. The grinder was so small, though, that it left visible grooves and marks in the floor that were not originally there.

Me not knowing any better, and assuming that the professionals knew what they were doing, I thought that the epoxy would cover up all of the new grooves and grinding marks. NOT!! The epoxy doesn't cover up ANYTHING. You will see each and every defect in the concrete right through the epoxy coating.

In the end, I had to get the local rep to physically come back to my place to observe how the bad the epoxy coating looked. Over the phone the rep had kept insisting that there was no way that his installers could have done as bad of a job as I was relating. Once he took a look at my garage floor in person, he immediately rescheduled the same doofuses to redo the floor. They had to grind off all of the previously applied epoxy and clearcoat, grind the concrete back to something sort of resembling what the original concrete had looked like, then reapply the epoxy and topcoat. I'm still finding concrete and epoxy dust in out of the way places in my garage to this day...

Instead of the small grinder, they came back with some sort of sander or grinder that was about 2 feet in diameter. The "professional" installers later admitted that the 2 foot diameter grinder was what they normally used - no explanation why they tried to do the job with the small grinder in the first place. The small grinder was just too difficult to control and not leave marks in the concrete.

By the way, thanks for sending me the plastic bushing for use on my EXL wheel. I never acknowledged and thanked you before for this, and for this I apologize profusely. Thanks again!

Titaniumboy

mdbeck1 · Jun 18, 2012

I wish you the best of luck with the small grinder. However in case you decide to bite the bullet and look for a better machine....

When I had to grind the hump off of the utility room I rented a walk behind unit that ground the concrete flat. It's a monster of a machine and I seem to remember that it was around $100.00/day. It sure took the uneven spots out. Unfortunately it was too big for the area I was working in.

Here's an image off of the internet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_grinder The one I used had multiple disks turned up and down (inside the machine).

rlwhitetr3b · Jun 19, 2012

shopnut said:
Good luck with the floor grinding. If it's anything like working with sheetrock dust, be ready to clean out the vac filter often. It may clog in a matter of minutes.

Looking forward to seeing an epoxied floor soon!

They make a vacumn bag to place inside the shop vac to collect the dust when working with sheetrock. Maybe that will work for you. I have also used a flat sheet of filter material over the filter. They were easier to remove and clean. They were cheap, so I got several and washed and dried them between sessions.

Jack Olsen · Jun 19, 2012

I've got a 9" angle grinder I'd donate to the cause. But you'd have to source the media for it.

fullthrottle24 · Jun 19, 2012

Red leader, I would like to put my 2 cents in on the hand grinder. I too did this in my basement utility room. I rented a 7" grinder with a dust control system from local HD. The vac has an spring umbrella inside that shakes the dust and keeps it from clogging. The hardest thing is to keep the grinder level and not leave marks as mentioned in above post. I have a few, but it was my first time. I would have used a walk behind, but no one around me had the diamond stones for them. I used epoxy coat and it looks good, but not perfect. I wish you the best of luck.

Red Leader · Jun 20, 2012

Guys, thanks for all your thoughts. They are really, truly appreciated.

Sorry I've been neglecting this thread a bit. I actually did try to post yesterday, but the site (our internet?) was hanging and I couldn't post.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the grinder!

Jack Olsen said:
I've got a 9" angle grinder I'd donate to the cause. But you'd have to source the media for it.

Thanks Jack for your generous offer! For now I'll stick with the 4.5" grinder since my wife got me the diamond grinding cup to go with it. Still, you are true gentleman!

I've already done a part of the floor and have a good feel for how the grinding wheel responds to the concrete. I definitely know what you guys are talking about with regard to the circles and grinding marks if you don't hold it flat - I've ground out a few of those already.

To be honest with you guys...the floor is a lot worse up close than the worst grinding marks. On the pad opposite and lower in relation to the woodworking corner, it is almost shallow crater-like. There isn't any damage, but the concrete hardened in an interesting way. So even if there are some grinding marks, they will be a lot better than the way it currently is. However, with the practice I've had so far, I have been getting pretty used to the way it handles and I've been able to grind most of what I've done so far, mark free. That being said, I am planning on using the flecks/specks. I'm thinking the smoke blue with accent the tan color nicely

I will have to use every spare moment I can muster because it is taking a LONG time! However, if I do it bit by bit, it will get done. But I'm okay, because the setup I have now does work and I remember someone posting about a similar process where they sat on a short stool or some such and I've been doing similar and it saves a lot on the knees and back.

Titaniumboy said:
By the way, thanks for sending me the plastic bushing for use on my EXL wheel. I never acknowledged and thanked you before for this, and for this I apologize profusely. Thanks again!

Titaniumboy

No prob man, glad you got it! :thumbup:

Progress report and photos to follow shortly! Thanks guys for hanging with me on this one!

flybefree · Jun 21, 2012

Wish you had a web cam mounted to your nugget so we could watch from the comfort of our cool and dust free homes....that would be awesome.

Shaun

Jack Olsen · Jun 21, 2012

Red Leader said:
To be honest with you guys...the floor is a lot worse up close than the worst grinding marks. On the pad opposite and lower in relation to the woodworking corner, it is almost shallow crater-like. There isn't any damage, but the concrete hardened in an interesting way. So even if there are some grinding marks, they will be a lot better than the way it currently is.

Speaking for myself, I'm from the 'looks good at ten feet' school of thinking. I know there are a lot of guys who feel differently. But I would get lost (and discouraged -- and probably give up) if I was worried about things like orange peel in the paint on storage cabinets. I always try and think of it in terms of the big picture -- how's it going to work; how soon can I get to work -- not so much the craftsman's 'every piece is done correctly and with no excuses' way of seeing things. It's a garage, after all.

Red Leader · Jun 23, 2012

Jack Olsen said:
Speaking for myself, I'm from the 'looks good at ten feet' school of thinking. I know there are a lot of guys who feel differently. But I would get lost (and discouraged -- and probably give up) if I was worried about things like orange peel in the paint on storage cabinets. I always try and think of it in terms of the big picture -- how's it going to work; how soon can I get to work -- not so much the craftsman's 'every piece is done correctly and with no excuses' way of seeing things. It's a garage, after all.

I'm the same way and it is a good thing I am. The poster above was right - I do have all kinds of grinding marks in the floor. However, they are very shallow and so the fleck/chip decision has been made for me :lol:

I have about 2/3 of 1 pad done, and it's slow going and hard. Hoping to finish 1 pad this weekend...then 3 more to go...

Climb On! · Jun 23, 2012

Red Leader said:
Here is the 1932 Atlas 9" lathe I'll be putting together. I'll be getting the rest of the parts (sans motor) from the previous owner, who is a great guy.

Either you are a trend setter or I am just envious. I've been thinking recently I could make use of metal lathe in my shop for light restoration work on my current and future tool acquisitions. Only thing is, I don't have much experience with them. In college I took a machining class where we learned the basics, but that was years ago.

So apparently I want to steer clear of the Craftsman 109 lathes, but what would be some Craftsman models that would be worth the hunt? How about something other than Craftsman...though like you, I am partial to C'man.

Oh yeah, let's see some photos of the floor! I'm still kicking myself for not putting down epoxy before I moved into this house.

Chuck

Red Leader · Jun 23, 2012

Climb On! said:
Either you are a trend setter or I am just envious. I've been thinking recently I could make use of metal lathe in my shop for light restoration work on my current and future tool acquisitions. Only thing is, I don't have much experience with them. In college I took a machining class where we learned the basics, but that was years ago.

So apparently I want to steer clear of the Craftsman 109 lathes, but what would be some Craftsman models that would be worth the hunt? How about something other than Craftsman...though like you, I am partial to C'man.

Oh yeah, let's see some photos of the floor! I'm still kicking myself for not putting down epoxy before I moved into this house.

Chuck

Thanks! I'm happy to have a lathe in the garage. My dad has a Clausing (I think its a 12", from the 1960s) and I've used it with him before but I feel like I so easily forget all the important fundamentals in using one. So when I see him next he is going to show me the ropes and then I'll actually have something to practice on and keep the skills fresh.

As far as lathes go - I think I'm willing to branch out from Craftsman on this one. It is kind of like the radial saws. Yes, Craftsman made them, but the Red Star is just so much more elegant and so much better engineered. Likewise, the Craftsmans (even the bigger 12" lathes, made by Atlas) have a reputation of being somewhat more of a lightweight and not serious machines. All of that to me is hearsay, since I have no practical or real life experience behind one and other lathes to compare it, but Atlas was a fan of using Zamak (their version of a die-cast metal) in a lot of trunnions, gears, housings, and other parts on a lot of their machines. Heck, the entire top of the cross slide of this lathe (also made by Atlas) is made of Zamak. So I can see where that reputation might be justified.

lathes.co.uk is a fantastic resource and you could spend hours on it just looking and researching lathes (I've done that a little bit, and will do more). I'd like to stay American if possible, for lathe availability and ease of locating parts.

Some of the finer lathes that I've heard about are American Pacemaker (BIG), LeBlond, Monarch, Hardinge, and Schaublin. However, for a well-cared machine, I'm pretty sure that these lathes would cost quite a bit (probable several times over what I have invested in the entire garage project). I'm thinking that with lathes, you get what you pay for, and if you are paying $25,000 for a lathe, that cost is most likely justified. A_Pmech is a machinist and a lathe guy on this forum, you might pick his brain, or maybe he might thrown in his 2 cents. There is another member on here who owns a crazy machine shop and he might chime in.

As far as lathes go, for a 2-car garage size, I know I'm not going to go crazy big and don't have the space even if I wanted to. Right now, II've been eyeing lathes like the Rivett 608 or the Wade 8A as compact lathes that are as finely constructed as some of the bigger lathes. My gosh, they are beautiful...

Pictures of the floor will come soon...hopefully when I have a little more done! :lol:

Shoottx · Jun 24, 2012

Dave

Another great resource for metal lathes is the Practical Machinists site.http://www.practicalmachinist.com/

Red Leader · Jun 25, 2012

Shoottx said:
Dave

Another great resource for metal lathes is the Practical Machinists site.http://www.practicalmachinist.com/

Yep, a great site and my second most viewed resource for lathe information

Red Leader · Jun 25, 2012

1 pad done, 3 left to go.

A little too exhausted to take pictures right now, but soon

mdbeck1 · Jun 25, 2012

Red Leader said:
1 pad done, 3 left to go.

A little too exhausted to take pictures right now, but soon

I seem to remember that you told us that the pad was real uneven. It's probably too late but you could always modify that router table leveling jig to do a large section of floor... using the grinder of course...

peelman · Jun 25, 2012

There is a guy who goes by tubalcain on YouTube. He has posted a whole series of videos on using lathes an other machining equipment. He was (or is) a high school shop teacher. They are interesting videos.

kald · Jun 27, 2012

peelman said:
There is a guy who goes by tubalcain on YouTube. He has posted a whole series of videos on using lathes an other machining equipment. He was (or is) a high school shop teacher. They are interesting videos.

I watched some of his videos. Good Stuff!

kngkong · Jun 27, 2012

Red Leader said:
1 pad done, 3 left to go.

A little too exhausted to take pictures right now, but soon

Sending you a little strength to get 'er done. We're all waiting to see. :3gears:

Red Leader · Jun 29, 2012

kngkong said:
Sending you a little strength to get 'er done. We're all waiting to see.

Oh my gosh thank you I need it!!!

Second pad about to be finished as we speak! :rocker:

Pictures to come shortly!!!

-RL

machine_punk · Jun 29, 2012

kald said:
I watched some of his videos. Good Stuff!

+1 good stuff

Red Leader · Jun 30, 2012

As promised, here is the work being done!

Several days ago:

Things get dusty. When I opened the garage door (was down because I was grinding at 9pm and on and didn't want to be a nuisance to the neighbors), a plume of dust exited the garage. I caught the tail end of it

And here is where I'm at tonight:

Here is a close up of what the grinder is doing:

That picture doesn't illustrate it very well, but the concrete is much more 'uneven' than you would think. When you take a pass with the grinder over it, it skims off the high points, which constitute about 5% of the total area you are sweeping. I have a good system down now where I ever so slightly angle the grinder or apply pressure on one side and it gets a good 'dig' into the floor, but as long as you move it, the circle marks stay to a minimum. Actually, I'm getting less circle marks that way than if I was to try and keep the grinder flat, because the slight tilt also allows me to quickly blend it if I notice the circle marks appearing. The floor is so uneven (small picture wise) that if you were to try and 'level' the floor with the grinder, it would take...

I'm not gonna lie, it is brutal. I figure if I break up each pad into sections of 3 (note: garage would be comprised of 12 sections, 3 per pad), it takes me about 1.5 hours to do one section. So I'm looking at, total, about 18 hours of grinding. Good news is that I am now more than halfway done as you can see. However, that 'happy, satisfied, warm and fuzzy DIY' feel is just about the only thing keeping me from jumping overboard. If I had a 3-car garage, no flippin way would this be happening.

All that to say, I don't have any regrets, because it is happening on the cheap which is what we're all about here

kald · Jun 30, 2012

Your gonna be cleaning that dust out of everything for a year!

We just used a fire extinguisher in the shop on one of the trucks, don't ask, anyway that fire extingusiher **** is everywhere.

If you have a long level or striaght edge maybe lay it on the floor so we can see how bad it is/was.

tinbender 66 · Jun 30, 2012

You are a glutton for punishment Dave! It looks great from here. It will all be worth it once you get that epoxy down!!

fullthrottle24 · Jun 30, 2012

This is for sure the hardest part. Prep, prep and more prep. The darn epoxy goes on in mere minutes. Then you are throwing flakes, next comes euphoria because it is done and looks awesome. Now you start looking for air bubbles and begin noticing grider marks. All in all you appreciate that it looks good and you saved a boat load of money. Keep going your almost there.

Mike

slickgt1 · Jul 2, 2012

That dust is crazy. Like really crazy. Good luck.

shopnut · Jul 2, 2012

Red Leader said:
When I opened the garage door (was down because I was grinding at 9pm and on and didn't want to be a nuisance to the neighbors), a plume of dust exited the garage. I caught the tail end of it

That plume of concrete dust is settling on my computer monitor down here in Florida as I write this! Aren't you worried about altering the countries climatic conditions with all your recent flooring DIY efforts ? (Kinda like the ash cloud when a volcano erupts)

Hang in there!

flybefree · Jul 2, 2012

Mein Gott in himmel that is some kind of hard work! Go get'em RL.

Red Leader · Jul 4, 2012

Thanks guys! And happy 4th of July GJ!!!

I got a little bit more done on the 3rd pad last night. The goal is to knock it out this week. Then I just have 1 to go.

I wanted to ask if any locals were going to be around at the beginning of August - that is when I'm looking to do this project.

I'd love the help and could probably really use it. Might make for a fun day and I'd definitely return the favor if needed. I could provide food + beer + snacks. My target date for getting the epoxy laid down is August 1-5, depending on weather.

If you are around, let me know! Thanks!

onething · Jul 6, 2012

There's no crickets smilie?

If I were in Colorado or nearby, I'd come help just to say I'd been there. I did my floor solo. Not sure what product you're using, but the SW stuff I put down went pretty easy once the prep was done. Mixed it in a 5 gal bucket and applied it with a roller. The floor and the bucket are still in pretty good shape.

Weekend_warrior · Jul 6, 2012

I'm pretty sure you can rent a big floor grinder. They are about 100 or so a day. Looks like a floor buffer, but has 3 or 4 stones on it for etching the surface. Not sure it flatten out the high spots, but your grinder will get what it does not do.

Looks good though! Rock on!

ducducgoose · Jul 8, 2012

Red Leader said:
The Red Star Multiplex 40A

hi all,

sorry to thread jack. my dad is doing a little cleaning up in the basement and is selling a red star multiplex 40A. he put it up on craigslist and immediately received offers. he's a little senior, and i just want to make sure he gets a fair price for it. i tried looking it up online, but all of my searches bring me here. it's in pristine shape, and looks incredible. any chance someone around here might be able to direct me regarding how much one of these puppies is worth?

Red Leader · Jul 8, 2012

ducducgoose said:
hi all,

sorry to thread jack. my dad is doing a little cleaning up in the basement and is selling a red star multiplex 40A. he put it up on craigslist and immediately received offers. he's a little senior, and i just want to make sure he gets a fair price for it. i tried looking it up online, but all of my searches bring me here. it's in pristine shape, and looks incredible. any chance someone around here might be able to direct me regarding how much one of these puppies is worth?

WOW. I have never seen a Red Star is such pristine original condition.

Does he by any chance have any of the paperwork on it? Red Star Products paperwork is extremely sparse and any paper might lend a clue as to the dating of such saw and might help others date theirs.

As far as price goes, nobody at this point really even knows how much they sold for new. As far as valuation goes, to one person it is worth nothing, and to the next it is priceless. I would say whatever your dad feels comfortable with would be a good price

This saw is close to Colorado, no? I mean, my garage can always make room for wayward immaculate tools looking for a new home :lol_hitti

ducducgoose · Jul 8, 2012

i thought this might be the right forum for something like this. many thanks for the help!!

i think i stumbled across a site that catalogs the serial numbers somewhere... i'll try to snap a few pics and get them online before he sells it. ditto for any paperwork that may be on/with it besides its badge.

saw is in michigan, so pretty far from CO...

Red Leader · Jul 8, 2012

ducducgoose said:
saw is in michigan, so pretty far from CO...

Bummer!!! Well, someone is going to get an amazing tool. Perhaps this may be too forward (and forgive me if so), but is there any chance of the saw going to you? I can tell you the Red Star is probably one of the finest built radial saws ever made. The ways/bearings on mine are absolutely perfect and it has sure seen some wear and tear.

Not trying to pry, but just in case you didn't have much interest to start out with...that saw is a real jewel and Red Stars are not common.

Oh, and yes if he has any paperwork on that saw, that would be HUGE. I'm just waiting for the day that one of these saws turns up with the original receipt and that way we can link a serial number to a year and start making some real movement on the manufacturing dates via serial numbers. Because these saws (and many other tools) were built in the 1930s and 1940s, the people who were directly connected with them are long gone or soon will be. On top of that, many times when these companies got bought out, changed management/ownership, or simply went out of business, the manufacturing data, shipping lists, letters, and other paperwork just disappeared.

ducducgoose · Jul 9, 2012

no worries red leader; the saw is not going to me. i'm more of a motorcycle man myself.

dad is getting old, but has many more boards to cut in his lifetime. he picked it up 5-6 years ago for $350, and is selling it because he never uses this particular tool. he's not senior slow, but rather senior internet illiterate and i was just looking out so he didn't get taken advantage of selling online. ;-) ive now confirmed the buyer is on the up and up, but again just wanted to confirm that he wasn't selling for pennies on the dollar.

truth be told, i can't believe how old it is. his table saw is maybe 10 years old, and i would have guessed they were both the same age. it really is in remarkable shape. i will try to snap more pictures for you and fellow enthusiasts out there.

zuk123 · Jul 9, 2012

another sort of hijack, but you are the expert RL!

Hey all,

I'm torn.

At the moment there are THREE different 50's era craftsman table saws Craigslisted in my area. One has the pedestal, table extensions, both fences and is $125.

I already have an 8" Homecraft, a tiny craft sized old one, with no mfgr, and my big Hitachi cabinet saw.

I really don't want to miss the one with all the options, but don't have a need or a place for it, just the desire.

What do you think??? At that price, or slightly less, is this a smokin' deal, or just reasonable?

Would you snap it up?

zuk

http://images.craigslist.org/5Fc5He5M23kc3K23Nec78f36aa996c28e18c5.jpg

Red Leader · Jul 9, 2012

zuk123 said:
another sort of hijack, but you are the expert RL!

Hey all,

I'm torn.

At the moment there are THREE different 50's era craftsman table saws Craigslisted in my area. One has the pedestal, table extensions, both fences and is $125.

I already have an 8" Homecraft, a tiny craft sized old one, with no mfgr, and my big Hitachi cabinet saw.

I really don't want to miss the one with all the options, but don't have a need or a place for it, just the desire.

What do you think??? At that price, or slightly less, is this a smokin' deal, or just reasonable?

Would you snap it up?

zuk

Zuk,

Thanks for your post! I hope you stick around.

You know, when I was first getting into tools, I wanted to jump on every tool opportunity I saw, including an 80s-90s Craftsman contractor saw (eek!)...lets just say things have changed and I'm more accustomed to either what I'm looking for or what is very desirable.

The good news is that Craftsman made TONS of those bench saws, so even if you don't get it, don't kick yourself because a new one (probably several) will most likely pop up again in a week.

If I were buying a bench model, I would strictly go for a 10" and make sure it at least had a 1HP motor. Other details that come into play are the stand, the switch (Cutler-Hammer, AB?) and other finer details. Also condition. That particular saw looks good and the pedestal base is a nice (albeit perhaps tippy) plus.

If you want a project and feel comfortable with the amount, then I say have a go at it and don't look back. A lot of people attach a value to these tools but that is tough because it means different amounts to different people. The deals are out there, but they sometimes take a trained eye and a LOT of patience and looking like a hawk. The last 2 nice deals that came through the Denver area (okay, last 3) were:

Four-Footed Unisaw: $75 (1939 manufacture - went to the guy that gave me the lathe

)
Craftsman 150 floor press: $55
Delta 6" jointer with cast iron art deco base: $25 (No, I kid you not.)

I did not get any of those tools, and that is okay!

Knowing exactly what you are looking for and just getting lucky by being in the right place at the right time are what make the deals. You increase your odds by staying on it and persevering.

I would recommend going through the OWWM photo index just to start looking at old tools and once you narrow down the manufacturers some, start pulling up old catalogs and looking through the tools that were offered back then.

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/bymfg.aspx

Me? I prefer 1940-1958 tools almost strictly. Mainly Craftsman, but I am also a big fan of Davis and Wells, Duro, Mooradian, Darra James, Atlas, and others. I'm also a huge sucker for old cabinet saws, regardless of manufacturer.

Have at it! But be warned: the slope is steep!

EDIT: While I am humbled, I am far from being an expert - I am learning everyday! I hope to be another link in the chain of valuable knowledge of a gone and nearly forgotton era that continues to get passed on. I still have much to learn. I was thinking, however, maybe many years down the road, it would be fun to write a book (with really big illustrations heh) of vintage machinery from the golden era of home workshops before the big corporations started the massive buyouts (circa 1960)

Red Leader · Jul 9, 2012

ducducgoose said:
truth be told, i can't believe how old it is. his table saw is maybe 10 years old, and i would have guessed they were both the same age. it really is in remarkable shape. i will try to snap more pictures for you and fellow enthusiasts out there.

$350, I would say, is a fair deal, both coming and going. I would very much like to see more pictures!

That Red Star is most likely from the 1940-1945 period. Delta bought out Red Star in 1948 to obtain their design/patents and the first saws were nearly identical to the Red Stars, save for the Delta Multiplex badges.

You can see how they have incorporated the original Red Star turret arm design in almost all of their radial saws, including currently:

And let me know if he has any of the original paperwork! Would LOVE to get a scan of that before it is sold and gone!

Red Leader · Jul 9, 2012

Alright guys! I am going to try to make a final push tonight to get the floor done! I'm half way there on the very last pad.

Wish me luck!!!! :fingersx:

tinbender 66 · Jul 10, 2012

Woo-Hoo! Bet you'll be glad that's over :thumbup:

Between 265 & 485 SQ/FT 1950s Craftsman Garage retro remodel

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