Whole house generators

Stuart in MN · Jul 4, 2012

Dragster Racer said:
I have a 3500 that I use at the track all the time. All I would need to run to get by at home is well pump and furnace blower and fridge. What is the simplest way to hook up?

This is a link to an article from Popular Mechanics that shows what to do. http://ne.mara.net/generator/pm_gen_install.pdf It's similar to what I described earlier - move the essential circuits to a separate subpanel located next to the main panel, and use a manual transfer switch to run them either off utility power or the generator.

Dragster Racer · Jul 4, 2012

Dragster Racer said:
I have a 3500 that I use at the track all the time. All I would need to run to get by at home is well pump and furnace blower and fridge. What is the simplest way to hook up? I actually have an access box under the meter. I could pop the meter face off for safety, but it would be nice to have it simple enough and safe enough that my wife could do it. It would also be nice to know when the line power came back on, as I have no view of neighbors.
I have done a bunch of electrical, in fact wired the house. But no experience with wiring in a geni drop.

Good article and a good way to do it....except it is a bear to get access to our basement for a plug in. Not impossible, but tough. I was hoping to just access all the way out at the barn where we get power, and they would put the geni naturally outside anyhow, instead of needing a long lead. I don't mind shutting off breakers. I do see one advantage of the seperate box, which is when the power comes back on, so does everything in the main box. Giving you an indicator.
Oh, the geni in the article is the one I have! Exactly except mine had the wheel kit.

theoldwizard1 · Jul 4, 2012

Dragster Racer said:
All I would need to run to get by at home is well pump and furnace blower and fridge. What is the simplest way to hook up?

You said simple. Furnace Transfer Switch

You need one for the furnace and one for the well. Run extension cords from your generator.

Obviously this does not work on a 240V well pump.

Stuart in MN · Jul 4, 2012

Dragster Racer said:
Good article and a good way to do it....except it is a bear to get access to our basement for a plug in. Not impossible, but tough. I was hoping to just access all the way out at the barn where we get power, and they would put the geni naturally outside anyhow, instead of needing a long lead. I don't mind shutting off breakers. I do see one advantage of the seperate box, which is when the power comes back on, so does everything in the main box. Giving you an indicator.
Oh, the geni in the article is the one I have! Exactly except mine had the wheel kit.

The thing is, some kind of transfer switch is required - you need a failsafe method of isolating the generator power from the incoming utility service. Simply turning off the main breaker and then plugging in a generator out in the barn isn't good enough, as it's not 100% reliable. For instance, if there's a power outage at 3 in the morning, and someone who's half asleep or not familiar with the setup forgets to turn off the main breaker, then power from the generator will backfeed out to the utility. It goes through the transformer out on the pole and gets stepped up to 13,000 volts (or whatever the local utility runs at) and it's potentially lethal to linemen working on the power lines nearby.

HOTFR8 · Jul 4, 2012

For the times the power is off I would suggest look at what is essential to run your house.
Here if my power is off my Solar system has battery back up and when we set it up we decided Fridges, Cooling and lights to be essential. My system still runs everything else but I have to go without oven and hot plates and heating etc. If it gets cold I have a wood heater in my works and I could cook on that if I had to. Also to consider is how long your power may be off. Hours or days ? This will determine if you need to run everything or just essentials.

theoldwizard1 · Jul 4, 2012

If you know what you are doing, all you really need is one of these and a box to mount it in.

Leviton Double Pole, Double Throw

Thruxton · Jul 4, 2012

Used to use a 4kw portable gasoline generator with extension cords to run fridge, a couple of light circuits, computer (ignore the "sensitive electronic equipment" warning IME), well pump, and (propane) furnace. Then came the winter of '09-'11, immediately after which I installed a 10kw Generac (I just turned 70 and not only did I get tired of slogging through the snow to set up, and then fuel the little genset, I had just had rotator cuff surgery and wasn't supposed to move my left arm. Right.)

We have had several outages since the install, the latest the result of the derecho of the past weekend (a tree in our front yard totalled my wife's Honda, general carnage all over the farm), and our Generac performed flawlessly from lights out Friday evening until restoration of power yesterday afternoon.

My installation included having a buried 500 gal. propane tank replace two 125 gal. standups (no charge from the fuel company for the upgrade), and a transfer switch (included with the Generac) that I installed myself. It controls all circuits in the house except the shop (90A subpanel), and I am very pleased with it. The auto test every Sunday morning is music to my ears, and I love lifting the cover to read "Ready to Run" on the LCD readout.

My recommendations to the OP based on the above experiences are: 1. go whole house, it is not much more money, but a much easier install. One way to save money is to use a load shedding transfer switch, which does just that- if the load rises above a certain percentage of the generator's output, it selectively shuts off some circuits; 2. get a sufficiently large propane tank, if that is your fuel choice; 3. have it installed professionally. I did it myself, but I would not recommend it. For example, in the case of the Generac (Siemens) switch, it did not have sufficiently flexible knockouts to accommodate my installation requirements easily.

The downside of this project is that once done, your friends will come over for showers, bringing coolers full of food to store in your fridge. The upside- humorous discussions with the wife saying, "we gotta get one of these," and the husband saying, "I can't see that for only a few days of minor inconvenience." Those husbands are generally not the types who are members here.

The very best thing is the first time the lights go out, and your wife says, "what now?" and you just calmly reply, "count to fifteen..."

Good Luck!

roaddog359 · Jul 4, 2012

I have a whole house generator, I have had it for about 8 years now. Its the best thing I added to my home next to central air. Ii would never build another home without it. its a 15,000kw power station by Coleman. :thumbup:

Dragster Racer · Jul 5, 2012

Our well pump is 220V, as many are. The other problem I have is the order things were built on my property. Meter is mounted on the shop, with a box, from whitch the power to the shop comes and the other lead goes to the house box. So two boxes not in series if you are with me. There is water to the shop, so extended outages could be a problem unless I come up with a backup heater out there....which isn't out of the question.
Everyone gets their shorts in a wad whenever anyone suggests backfeeding...but it is just about the only way to power house and shop for me. Popping the meter off and feeding through a welder outlet in the shop I would think is completely safe as long at the meter is not connected.
It is silly of me to assume that my wife could even get the geni out, started, power cord located and hooked up. So that is out anyhow.
I would have no way to know when the power was back on using this method though unless I proped the incoming line to check.
The big thing for us is to keep pipes from freezing and keep water running.

Stuart in MN · Jul 5, 2012

Dragster Racer said:
Everyone gets their shorts in a wad whenever anyone suggests backfeeding...

Many of us who respond to these questions are professional electrical engineers or licensed electricians, and as a result we're bound by our licenses to warn against backfeeding. I know it's done all the time and in the vast majority of cases no one ever gets hurt, but we can't condone it.

Teken · Jul 5, 2012

Stuart in MN said:
Many of us who respond to these questions are professional electrical engineers or licensed electricians, and as a result we're bound by our licenses to warn against backfeeding. I know it's done all the time and in the vast majority of cases no one ever gets hurt, but we can't condone it.

Not only that, its someones life down the line . . . I know I couldn't live with myself if my actions caused sudden death to another. :sad:

Teken . . .

Dragster Racer · Jul 5, 2012

Stuart in MN said:
Many of us who respond to these questions are professional electrical engineers or licensed electricians, and as a result we're bound by our licenses to warn against backfeeding. I know it's done all the time and in the vast majority of cases no one ever gets hurt, but we can't condone it.

Understood, and that makes sense.

The Frisco Kid · Jul 5, 2012

theoldwizard1 said:
Wow !

I did a quick price check on whole home generators.

30KW - about $12,000
20KW - about $5,000

30kW = 1800RPM water cooled
20kW = 3600RPM aircooled

BIG difference between these two units in build quality and longevity as well.

I don't want to knock the Generac units, they certainly have their place but as was mentioned by another member, they are aircooled and many are 3600RPM units. They need to be serviced regularly, and if there is a prolonged power outage, they need to be taken down from time to time and serviced. Think about taking your 1000CC Vtwin up to 3600 RPM (similar to Generac/Guardian 20kW HS unit) and keeping it revved that high for 24 hours in a row in the same stationary place (not moving it around, circulating air). It's not going to die after 24 hours. Now keep it that high RPM for a week or two... it's probably going to need some intermittent rest and a fluid and filter service a few times, right? Take care of the home standby units, and they can perform quite well... but they are nothing compared to a good water cooled 1800RPM unit.

If you have a 200A panel, you don't necessarily need 200A of single phase power to run your house, but you do need to have someone (or DIY) calculate the starting requirements of everything that you want to run or start at the same time in the event of a power outage.

Sub panels & manual transfer or double throw switches are EASY to have installed and relatively cheap.

Highbeam · Jul 6, 2012

The Frisco Kid said:
Think about taking your 1000CC Vtwin up to 3600 RPM (similar to Generac/Guardian 20kW HS unit) and keeping it revved that high for 24 hours in a row in the same stationary place (not moving it around, circulating air). It's not going to die after 24 hours. Now keep it that high RPM for a week or two... it's probably going to need some intermittent rest and a fluid and filter service a few times, right? Take care of the home standby units, and they can perform quite well... but they are nothing compared to a good water cooled 1800RPM unit.

.

To be fair, there is nothing wrong with air cooled engines. Especially those that run at a fixed RPM and have built in cooling fans to force air over the fins at a calculated rate. These engines are designed to stay at the proper temperature with that amount of airflow. It is not like a V-twin motorcycle engine standing still. Think of air cooled VW engines, smaller airplane engines, porsche engines, etc. that have logged many many hours of operation. Air cooled engines are a time honored and proven technology. The variables are ambient air temperature taking away a variable amount of heat, and engine load variation creating a variable amount of heat. Because of these two variables, the air cooled engine must be designed to run at a wide range of temps.

The water cooled engine is indeed superior since by using a thermostat, the engine temperature is held fairly constant. Now tolerances can be tighter and more precise. Water cooled engines are heavier and much less portable.

They both work just fine. I am more concerned about the 3600 rpm engine beating itself to death. No reason an air cooled engine can't run at 1800 rpm. In fact, some do.

Dragster Racer · Jul 6, 2012

RV genis run air cooled just about forever when you are a drag racer. Start it up friday night before you leave to get it cooled down in there, make the trip and leave it run all weekend including the ride home...every weekend for the serious ones. The 3600 rpm ones are more annoying, but they live forever. Just don't let them sit forever without excercising them.

The Frisco Kid · Jul 7, 2012

I wasn't knocking the resi gens only for being air-cooled. Deutz diesels perform admirably in powergen applications. Simply pointing to the high rev motor to achieve the HP they need, 2 pole alternator design & fact that many owners treat them like lawnmowers (not servicing them regularly) as failure points. As always, YMMV. Take care of them, like all of our tools, and they can perform quite well.

Herb67SS · Jul 7, 2012

I did a google search on Generac, found the least expensive on line source for the size I wanted, order it (free shipping to the door) with defer switch and had a local electrical outfit install it. Saved over $2000.

Consult an electrical contractor first for sized and install costs and you can do the same if he is willing and you commit to the install . Many will.

rlme36 · Jul 7, 2012

Highbeam said:
To be fair, there is nothing wrong with air cooled engines. Especially those that run at a fixed RPM and have built in cooling fans to force air over the fins at a calculated rate. These engines are designed to stay at the proper temperature with that amount of airflow. It is not like a V-twin motorcycle engine standing still. Think of air cooled VW engines, smaller airplane engines, porsche engines, etc. that have logged many many hours of operation. Air cooled engines are a time honored and proven technology. The variables are ambient air temperature taking away a variable amount of heat, and engine load variation creating a variable amount of heat. Because of these two variables, the air cooled engine must be designed to run at a wide range of temps.

The water cooled engine is indeed superior since by using a thermostat, the engine temperature is held fairly constant. Now tolerances can be tighter and more precise. Water cooled engines are heavier and much less portable.

They both work just fine. I am more concerned about the 3600 rpm engine beating itself to death. No reason an air cooled engine can't run at 1800 rpm. In fact, some do.

with my recent 20kw generac unit install in the NE behind the garage with propane fuel, my electrician/service guy for the generac said in addition to doing the weekly splash the oil around deal also give it a real Load to work with every 3-4 months. He also wasn't a believer in the low rpm test, said to run it like it would be run when in use. just my 2 cents, which is all i have left after installing the gen set 180 ft away from my house

theoldwizard1 · Jul 7, 2012

Dragster Racer said:
Our well pump is 220V, as many are. The other problem I have is the order things were built on my property. Meter is mounted on the shop, with a box, from whitch the power to the shop comes and the other lead goes to the house box. So two boxes not in series if you are with me.
...
Everyone gets their shorts in a wad whenever anyone suggests backfeeding...but it is just about the only way to power house and shop for me.

There is a solution without backfeeding.

Remove the meter from its current box. Install the meter in a new box a few feet away. Install a transfer switch, either manual or automatic, between the new meter box and the old meter box. In the old meter box install shorting bars and replace the front cover with a solid cover (or permanently close the hole where the meter was).

Not cheap, but it is legal and safe for you and the linesmen !

Your generator needs to be sized for "maximum load" if you have an automatic transfer switch OR for a smaller generator and a manual transfer switch, you need to manually turn off branch circuits that are not required during the outage.

Grumpy365 · Jul 7, 2012

Me and my dad were discussing this. The one he was looking at was over 20K. I asked him a few questions.

1. How many times has your power been off over that 2 years.?
( he has under ground power, so nothing falls on line). He said probably 6 hours total in the last 2 years

2. If you lost everything in your fridge and freezer how much would you lose?
(I know half the **** in his freezer is already expired, and the drinks etc. will keep)

3. How long can you stay at a hotel for 20k?

4. If it is a catastrophic storm, that takes out the power for a month, what is the chances your home will be damaged in some way that would require you staying else where anyway?

A far as the diesel debate, the problem I see most, is diesel grows mold and that mold clogs stuff up.

During hurricane Ike, I live in what in a coastal region and was out of power less than an hour.

mothgrey · Jul 7, 2012

Grumpy365 said:
Me and my dad were discussing this. The one he was looking at was over 20K. I asked him a few questions.

1. How many times has your power been off over that 2 years.?
( he has under ground power, so nothing falls on line). He said probably 6 hours total in the last 2 years

2. If you lost everything in your fridge and freezer how much would you lose?
(I know half the **** in his freezer is already expired, and the drinks etc. will keep)

3. How long can you stay at a hotel for 20k?

4. If it is a catastrophic storm, that takes out the power for a month, what is the chances your home will be damaged in some way that would require you staying else where anyway?

During hurricane Ike, I live in what in a coastal region and was out of power less than an hour.

So I do agree with some of this but if it's wide spread well hotels are booked up and charging full price. I also can't protect my home from looting from a hotel. I had a 20kw bought and installed for under 6500.00. I also travel and I don't see my wife hauling out a generator hooking it up and so on. I debated on this a lot also, and finally bit the bullet. We had not been in our home a full year and were with out power 4 times the longest 5 days, shortest 5 hrs. My parents are in their 80's and now live close so summer heat or winter cold they can come here and we'll have power if they lose it.
I lived in Rochester NY prior and in 20 yrs lost power very few times. I didn't even have a generator. Here in Va were on the low end of the priority list and at the mercy a power company that will bring the masses on line first just as it should be! I like the peace of mind for the 1hr to 5 day outages.

Highbeam · Jul 7, 2012

You have to consider the value of other things than just replacing the food in your fridge. I value being able to stay home in the storm with my family. I value the independence of having power whether the utility can provide it or not.

The last power outage was only about 6 hours long. I woke up to no power and had to go to work, send kids to school, etc. We ran the genset for lights, watch TV, and to make breakfast. Only needed the genset for a little while but I wouldn't have rented a hotel room and didn't need to worry about food. It's about convenience.

No, I wouldn't spend 20k. I also wouldn't size the genset to provide full utility power. I only want to keep the basics up and running, not the hot tub or AC.

HOTFR8 · Jul 7, 2012

Grumpy365 said:
A far as the diesel debate, the problem I see most, is diesel grows mold and that mold clogs stuff up.

As far as Diesel is concerned it is personal situation as well as location and application.
Diesels also work better when running for longer times. Gasolene gens sets can run for shorter times.

One of the only reasons I see to go Diesel is they breath better than a gasolene unit. Example in a Fire situation and heavy smoke a gasolene unit will fail but a Diesel should last much longer. This has been prooved here with the last bad fires specialy with pumps and gen sets in these applications.

mx842 · Jul 9, 2012

aandpdan said:
Great, you know it works. Now do it right and put in an interlock.

Interlock?? awh.... is it safe to ask what that is? :dunno:

bd8134 · Jul 9, 2012

On my electrical panel, Siemens, the interlock screws around the main circuit breaker and the top left center breaker. This is the one closest to the main circuit breaker. The wiring to the generator is connected to this circuit breaker. A sliding plate prevents you switching both the main circuit breaker and the circuit breaker for the generator on at the same time. To switch on the breaker for the generator you need to switch the main breaker off first.
See this link.http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-ECSBPK03-Generator-Mechanical-Interlock/dp/B004Q01YUK

Dave Nelson · Jul 9, 2012

bd8134 said:
On my electrical panel, Siemens, the interlock screws around the main circuit breaker and the top left center breaker. This is the one closest to the main circuit breaker. The wiring to the generator is connected to this circuit breaker. A sliding plate prevents you switching both the main circuit breaker and the circuit breaker for the generator on at the same time. To switch on the breaker for the generator you need to switch the main breaker off first.
See this link.http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-ECSBPK03-Generator-Mechanical-Interlock/dp/B004Q01YUK

These are not legal everywhere, check your local codes.

foolishpride · Jul 9, 2012

mx842 said:
Interlock?? awh.... is it safe to ask what that is?

http://www.interlockkit.com/

theoldwizard1 · Jul 9, 2012

Dave Nelson said:
These are not legal everywhere, check your local codes.

Checking local codes is always a good idea, but I find it hard to believe that a local code a design that meets NEC standards.

Square D and GE sell kits for their panels and I suspect others do also.

mx842 · Jul 9, 2012

foolishpride said:
http://www.interlockkit.com/

Okay, cool! Thanks......you too BD. I guess something like that is a good idea but I would never run my genny with the main breaker not tripped. I was a lineman for a few years and have been nipped a time or two so I'm pretty thoughtful with things like that.

Highbeam · Jul 10, 2012

mx842 said:
Okay, cool! Thanks......you too BD. I guess something like that is a good idea but I would never run my genny with the main breaker not tripped. I was a lineman for a few years and have been nipped a time or two so I'm pretty thoughtful with things like that.

That's why the interlock is so great. You can't backfeed the panel without the main tripped. It is NEC approved so local codes are very unlikely to prohibit this. I, like bd8134, installed a Siemens load center that has a built in interlock tab in the regular panel cover. Works really well, passed inspection, permitted, etc.

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