a tale of two wrenches

carterbeauford · Nov 27, 2012

not wanting to hijack this thread any more than already has been done...

can someone explain any appreciable, scientific differences in form and function between these two wrenches other than the following: one is 6 point, one is 12 point, and one cost $39, and the other $10? both will break loose a seized 1/2" fastener, both mic to the same specs, both are nickel chrome plated, both feel great in my hand, and if I close my eyes, why, I can't tell which one I am using. the Gearwrench even has a flank drive style open end.

I want to know what others know. I got 2 complete sets, or 48 of the Gearwrenches, SAE and metric, for the price of 4 SAE Snap-Ons. at what point does COO defy logic? I want valid, logical arguments, not my daddy bought only Snap-On and they last for millenia.

warmpancakes · Nov 27, 2012

simple when we buy american made products our neighbors get to keep their jobs,

oilfieldtrash4 · Nov 27, 2012

I don't know for fact that snap on uses higher quality steel but for the price I'd imagine they do. If gearwrench is using garbage steel which at that price I imagine they are then you end up with garbage. Sure you might not notice the difference using it sparingly at your home but a pro would quickly find the difference as they would find the wrenches limit.
Having worked at a couple of different heat treat facilities I can tell you quality steel that has been forged, heat treated, then tested is expensive.

TinKnocker · Nov 27, 2012

warmpancakes said:
simple when we buy american made products our neighbors get to keep their jobs,

this.

if we all buy imported goods, where would we work? how about our kids?

sberry · Nov 27, 2012

You can get one almost as good for 2$, between there for about 7

Trucky · Nov 27, 2012

oilfieldtrash4 said:
I don't know for fact that snap on uses higher quality steel but for the price I'd imagine they do. If gearwrench is using garbage steel which at that price I imagine they are then you end up with garbage. Sure you might not notice the difference using it sparingly at your home but a pro would quickly find the difference as they would find the wrenches limit.
Having worked at a couple of different heat treat facilities I can tell you quality steel that has been forged, heat treated, then tested is expensive.

^This guy.

You'll see the difference in years of use. I have nothing to prove on either companies end by the way.

Also, go try to really crank on a bolt with the open ends to see which one flexes. I'm not saying go out and destroy wrenches, but you know, without testing the actual metals themselves you're pretty much stuck with time and force.

Perhaps the SO chrome doesn't chip off when you put some minor dents on it? Maybe it's the other way around, GW might have a better cleaning process before they plate.

It's a lot of little things. I support my country if it's in my price range (middle class family), and that means most of my tools are US made. It's not imperative or life threatening, but I can't buy a 200 pc chinese set and feel good about it, ya know?

Maybe, for wrenches, we are at an "end" in the quality thing. I think that's why everyones throwing their little things into them to sell a few more. Like the flank drive business and whatnot. It's more money made from very close to the same product. I have one WrightGrip wrench and it's a 3/4 for use with the mills I work on. I see no real difference. The wrench itself is great though, but it was over 10$. That being said, I could make due just fine with the 3$ wrench from the bucket at some pawn shop.

carterbeauford · Nov 27, 2012

carterbeauford said:
appreciable, scientific differences in form and function

....

sberry said:
You can get one almost as good for 2$, between there for about 7

they averaged $2.70 a piece in the set, $10 is open stock.

oilfieldtrash4 · Nov 27, 2012

Im thinking back to my time working at a heat treatment facility and getting to talk to a metallurgist on a daily basis and learning about steel. I start to shudder at the piss poor quality they must be using to make a wrench set at that price. Hell you couldn't even get a legitimate facility to heat treat those wrenches for what those gearwrenches sell for. And what kind of quality standards is the raw steel being manufactured under? I would love for an independent lab with a metallurgist cut these wrenches and look at them under a microscope. Then put them in a stress testing machine and see at what point these wrenches break.

balane · Nov 27, 2012

Bottom line is that you buy what you like. You personally need to calculate in the factors that are important to you. It's a free country and that's a great thing. I can't afford to buy brand new Snap On tools so I'm patient and wait for deals on second-hand tools. It's slower but ultimately I've always gotten the tools I wanted.

For me it's simple, but I admit also petty. I want to be proud of my tools and I like the feeling I get when I open my wrench drawer and see a complete set of Snap Ons. I know I could do the job with lesser expensive tools made in some foreign country but I wouldn't enjoy owning my tools as much.

But bear this in mind, it we keep sending our money overseas to countries like China how long before our economy collapses even further than it has? Might not be a free country forever. I'm proud to have the ability to buy American if I choose to. That doesn't have to be important to you but you should realize it is to some. I don't think anybody has ever claimed, that purely from a purchase standpoint, Snap On offers the best value.

Trucky · Nov 27, 2012

carterbeauford said:
blah blah I asked for scientific junk

Trucky said:
... but you know, without testing the actual metals themselves you're pretty much stuck with time and force.

There have been plenty of discussions about this sort of thing, and they all end up in the same pile by the time they're through.

You want scientific? Grain structures? Which companies forging process aligns the atoms in the proper way to handle stress? Go have it tested. Not trying to be mean, per se, but really, what are you looking for? Scientific doesn't come from your average or professional user.

Conductor562 · Nov 27, 2012

We've had 12 trillion debates about when the "Snap-On premium" becomes TOO premium and I agree that this is sometimes the case (the $1,000 set of stubby wrenches comes to mind) but for many pro users the Snap-On system as a whole is too tempting to pass on. The truck service, easy warranty, and credit options, are all tempting. There are many american made options to be had for less than the Snap-On's such as Proto, SK, Williams, etc., and if you're not in a situation to utilize the Snap-On advantages to the fullest you're probably better off going with one of the others. Do I believe that Snap-On makes a superior wrench to Proto? Nope, but it's still going to be expensive. As for the COO issue, it really comes down to the individual. Are you looking to get more TOOL for your money or are you looking to get more TOOLS for the same money? Is the Gearwrench sufficient for most peoples needs? most likely, but am I willing to pay a bit more to support American workers? yes, I am. That doesn't always make the most economic sense for me as an individual, but when I pick up my over priced Proto wrench or ratchet I take pride in it and I enjoy using it. To each his own, but I'm just not happy using Asian tools.

bczygan · Nov 27, 2012

I too would like both companies to show scientific analysis of their design and construction along with test results as sales points, rather than the "ours is cheaper" or "ours is a name brand" sales methods. Don't expect it from either one. As a casual user it's a moot point. Price and basic utility govern. If I was a pro, I'd get the best available, price be damned. To me, COO is irrelevant.

demographic · Nov 27, 2012

OK so its in German but its a decent test of wrenches. I don't read German and I'm no rocket scientist but its not difficult for even the hard of thinking to work out what its saying...

They measure the sizes of both the open and ring ends, the torque in Newton Metres that it can take, look at the cost in Euros and so on.

Hazet came out particularly well...

Jarhead0408 · Nov 27, 2012

I know we can get the gist of the above article, but man it'd be cool to see that translated!

Trucky · Nov 27, 2012

Better call Monte

DSLTRK · Nov 27, 2012

carterbeauford said:
not wanting to hijack this thread any more than already has been done...

can someone explain any appreciable, scientific differences in form and function between these two wrenches other than the following: one is 6 point, one is 12 point, and one cost $39, and the other $10? both will break loose a seized 1/2" fastener, both mic to the same specs, both are nickel chrome plated, both feel great in my hand, and if I close my eyes, why, I can't tell which one I am using. the Gearwrench even has a flank drive style open end.

I want to know what others know. I got 2 complete sets, or 48 of the Gearwrenches, SAE and metric, for the price of 4 SAE Snap-Ons. at what point does COO defy logic? I want valid, logical arguments, not my daddy bought only Snap-On and they last for millenia.

Sir, there is no argument, The Taiwanese have good quality control, a good work ethic, and their growing economy is in better health than the US.

DSLTRK · Nov 27, 2012

TinKnocker said:
this.

if we all buy imported goods, where would we work? how about our kids?

Let the Taiwanese make the wrenches, Americans should be the ones who revolutionize manufacturing processes, design the manufacturing equipment and lead the world in innovation. :rolleyes2

JSBriggs · Nov 27, 2012

demographic said:
OK so its in German but its a decent test of wrenches. I don't read German ...

Paging Monte...

-Jeff

andywander · Nov 27, 2012

Well, quite a few of the wrenches, including a Stanley and a very cheap Indian wrench, beat the Snap-Ons in the open end torque tests.

Thirsty · Nov 27, 2012

I always become confused when I read about how we should buy American tools etc to keep manufacturing jobs. I would never want to work in a factory doing the same mind numbing job for 8 hrs a day, don't want my children to have to work there either. To me that would be a pitiful existence. And 90% of my tools I buy are American made but not for reasons so my children can work at those kind of mundane jobs.

Dieselbutterfly · Nov 27, 2012

why dont you email snap on and ask them

pipsters · Nov 27, 2012

After working on my own cars I honestly do not think I could hack it as a auto mechanic. Tools are too expensive, money isn't that good, and you wear out your body fast.

Man of Many Vices · Nov 27, 2012

TinKnocker said:
this.

if we all buy imported goods, where would we work? how about our kids?

We get to work fixing all that imported junk, using imported tools, working for foreign companies that own the means of production that were previously used to build America for Americans by Americans.

Eventually, even the repair trade will go away. It will all be FedEx and UPS truks delivering imported goods, and Waste Management Inc. and Burtec trucks picking it up a short time later.

Trucky · Nov 27, 2012

Thirsty said:
I always become confused when I read about how we should buy American tools etc to keep manufacturing jobs. I would never want to work in a factory doing the same mind numbing job for 8 hrs a day, don't want my children to have to work there either. To me that would be a pitiful existence. And 90% of my tools I buy are American made but not for reasons so my children can work at those kind of mundane jobs.

I'm so glad you look down on a decent job that's actually in America. Notice I said decent. Sure it's not that high paying or great, but seriously, what the heck? Manufacturing is NOT all guys working 12's in some dark and damp factory all year. To round it up like that is just.. not cool (to channel my inner 12 year old). And to call it a "pitiful existence".. not even going to comment.

Kingsway · Nov 27, 2012

Here's a cool but not scientific test hit the two wrenches together,edge to edge. Guess which one will have a dent? Not the so... How's that for metallurgy.

Glacial_Speed · Nov 27, 2012

Well I was going to chalk up the Hazet strength victory to some home town testing,....but their least favorite tool (Gedore) was also from Germany (or Deutschland as they say in Germany). Looking farther down the list it seems that the Hazet has the thickest steel for the open end and the 2nd highest height for the box end. Curiously Gedore had similar thickness but failed the strength tests sooner.

Overall it looks like there isn't much difference in the breaking points between the 18 wrenches tested. The difference between the best box end and the worst was only 15 Nm or about 11 ft-lbs. The open end was a wider variation with the best being 184Nm and the worst being 94, but that seems to be an outlier, so the 3 way tie at 15th of 135Nm seems like a more reasonable cutoff, yielding a 49 Nm or 36 ft-lb variation from best to (2nd) worst.

It's also interesting to note that Hazet finished 13th in their 1-18 rankings (1 being the best), but I think the price was weighted a bit too much in their rankings.

BTW 240 Nm = 177lb-ft = something I wouldn't try with a 13mm wrench :scared:

And 135 Nm = 99 lb-ft = something else I wouldn't try with a 13 mm wrench.

Here is my crude translation skills for the main chart. Down the list it looks like the first thing is where they got the tool from??? Next is Price, followed by dimensional accuracy for the 13mm open end (aka how close is a 13.00 mm wrench to 13.00mm? BTW they use a comma for a decimal place instead of a period....it's europe), and dimensional accuracy for the box end (or ring). Next they have the thickness in mm of the open end, ranking it 1 for the thinnest and 18 for the thickest. Next is the height of the box end and then the test of the open end and the test of the box end in Nm on their torture test machine of steel (with digital readout). I'm left wondering if they stopped the box end test at 240Nm since it looks like wrenches 1-10 all achieved it (and 177 lb-ft is a crazy amount to put on a 13mm wrench). Finally the comments (bemerkung), Most say things like ringseite verbogen (box end bent) or Maximum erreicht (maximum achieved) and form unverandert (form unaltered/ not deformed). On the Snap on they noted "beste Oberflache" (best finish). Couldn't find the umlaut key but I think you get the idea.

Wakefield · Nov 27, 2012

It is interesting to look at the different shapes of the open ends of such wrenches as Wright,Williams USA and the Nepros with its widest part closer to the handle than the others.

Conductor562 · Nov 28, 2012

Thirsty said:
I always become confused when I read about how we should buy American tools etc to keep manufacturing jobs. I would never want to work in a factory doing the same mind numbing job for 8 hrs a day, don't want my children to have to work there either. To me that would be a pitiful existence. And 90% of my tools I buy are American made but not for reasons so my children can work at those kind of mundane jobs.

I have 3 boys and a little girl. I would love for them to be Doctors, Lawyers, and CEO's, but at the end of the day my real desire for them as their Daddy is for them to posses the ability and desire to earn an honest living and support their families to the best of their ability. If that is in an operating room, a court room, or from a corner office on the top floor of the Chrysler building that's fantastic, but if it's at the piston rod station on a Dodge assembly line, the cab of a freight locomotive, or behind the wheel of a police car I'll be just as proud of them. At some point in the recent past we've convinced our children that if they don't obtain a bachelors degree they are a failure and relegated to a "pitiful existence" at an honest, good paying, industrial job. My cousin had the opportunity to hire on the Railroad not long after I did. He decided to go to college at the states "most prestigious university" and get a 4 year business degree instead. A decade later I'm making good money, I have no credit card bills, a substantial retirement for my age, a nice home, my wife and I both drive newer cars, and we have just enough left to spoil the kids a little, take them on nice vacations, and buy a bunch of tools. My cousin got a job with the state tax dept. making less than half what I do, is so deep in student loan debt he'll be 40 by the time he gets out, he doesn't make enough to cover his living expenses and his student loans forcing him and his wife to live at home with his mom, and his credit is already ruined to the point he can't get a cell phone in his name and Sallie Mae has his wages garnished. Despite all this, my aunt constantly throws it up to everyone how great it is that he went to college and got himself an education and what a waste it would have been for him to spend his life working on the Railroad. He can sit at a computer and be "educated" for $30,000 a year as long as his smart little heart desires. I'll sit on my *** on a locomotive and blow the whistle at little kids for $80,000+ until I'm old enough to draw my monster pension and not regret it the 1st f#%king time.

oldtools · Nov 28, 2012

Is my old eyesight seeing it wrong? It seem like the Indian (HR) wrench beat Snap On wrench.

oldtools · Nov 28, 2012

Here are some reasons why Snap On cost more than Gearwrench.

1-Maybe higher quality steel
2-Maybe better heat treatment
3-Less wrench to wrench variation (better quality control)
4-More testing
5-The Snap On name
6-Higher labor rate
7-Tool delivery to work site
8-Loan for tool purchase

oldldh · Nov 28, 2012

Does the nut/bolt/screw etc., know the difference???

RCRGarage · Nov 28, 2012

The Germans are experts at propaganda... remember the 40's? Funny how the German wrenches come in first... what a coinkidink.

Thirsty · Nov 28, 2012

Trucky said:
I'm so glad you look down on a decent job that's actually in America. Notice I said decent. Sure it's not that high paying or great, but seriously, what the heck? Manufacturing is NOT all guys working 12's in some dark and damp factory all year. To round it up like that is just.. not cool (to channel my inner 12 year old). And to call it a "pitiful existence".. not even going to comment.

Well I am sorry you took offense but I worked almost every crappy job there is, especially starting out. One reason manufacturing jobs have vacated this country is because nobody wants to sit in front of a punch press etc. all day and have their mind go numb. Those days are gone. At least a breakfast cook slinging hash for a living can develop a talent to make the best damn breakfast in town, or a cabby can meet interesting people and develop a skill of learning the best way around town. A punch press operator etc. mind just goes numb. I know , I did them all.

Super Scout · Nov 28, 2012

A friend of mine was trying to get the heads off a ford ******, he called me because a bolt was giving him trouble. I went over with my wrenches and easy outs, all that good stuff. Took a look at the bolt, it wasn't rounded off or damaged in anyway. Grabbed his wrench (kobalt I think) went to loosen the bolt, you could see the ears of the wrench spread around the bolt. Grabbed my wrench (sk superkhrome) and the bolt broke free. There is a difference.
As my dad always said about craftsman tools. "The only people who think craftsman are any good are the ones who never used a good a tool." That was more about craftsman lawn equipment but still very valid.

carterbeauford · Nov 28, 2012

warmpancakes said:
simple when we buy american made products our neighbors get to keep their jobs,

I agree with this in principle and try to buy USA made tools whenever practical. however. in reality my immediate neighbor sells European made New Holland tractors. tried to help him out by buying one. it's a global economy. I'd argue the percentage of the GDP and percentage of Americans whose lives are supported by manufacturing 100% USA made tools is very, very low. "help your neighbor" is a feel good saying. if it were true I'd be all for it. the only USA made products around here are ****** arts and crafts, scented candles and locomotive engines. I am in manufacturing shops every day and still have yet to see one that makes tools or anything else I'd buy directly, most USA manufacturing is business to business.

oldtools said:
Here are some reasons why Snap On cost more than Gearwrench.

1-Maybe higher quality steel
2-Maybe better heat treatment
3-Less wrench to wrench variation (better quality control)
4-More testing
5-The Snap On name
6-Higher labor rate
7-Tool delivery to work site
8-Loan for tool purchase

1-I believe this but I'd like to see proof
2-I believe this but I'd like to see proof
3-I see no variances in consistency in any of the 48 Gearwrenches
4-I believe this
5-Given
6-Given
7-Ordered online and shipped, not served by a tool truck
8-Paid with a checking account

fsdogwood · Nov 28, 2012

Conductor562 said:
We've had 12 trillion debates about when the "Snap-On premium" becomes TOO premium and I agree that this is sometimes the case (the $1,000 set of stubby wrenches comes to mind) but for many pro users the Snap-On system as a whole is too tempting to pass on. The truck service, easy warranty, and credit options, are all tempting. There are many american made options to be had for less than the Snap-On's such as Proto, SK, Williams, etc., and if you're not in a situation to utilize the Snap-On advantages to the fullest you're probably better off going with one of the others. Do I believe that Snap-On makes a superior wrench to Proto? Nope, but it's still going to be expensive. As for the COO issue, it really comes down to the individual. Are you looking to get more TOOL for your money or are you looking to get more TOOLS for the same money? Is the Gearwrench sufficient for most peoples needs? most likely, but am I willing to pay a bit more to support American workers? yes, I am. That doesn't always make the most economic sense for me as an individual, but when I pick up my over priced Proto wrench or ratchet I take pride in it and I enjoy using it. To each his own, but I'm just not happy using Asian tools.

A company making profit doesn't mean its workers keeping their job.

It happened that, on one Monday, one company posted record revenue,
profit, all beat market; stock up big time, however, on Tuesday, that
company announced a 10% US layoff

KEH · Nov 28, 2012

Uh, guys, I don't own any Gearwrenches but I notice that some Gearwrench stuff is made in Taiwan and some in China. Wonder how they compare?

KEH

fsdogwood · Nov 28, 2012

Jarhead0408 said:
I know we can get the gist of the above article, but man it'd be cool to see that translated!

It'd be nice to see a test for the offerings here

Skyline · Nov 28, 2012

You can argue quality all you want, but for anyone who uses wrenches on a regular basis, a big part of the decision process of what to buy comes down to how a wrench feels in your hand. And how it performs in use. Objective tests are not as important as subjective reactions. A reputation of fine customer service, fantastic finish and quality control are what make Snap-on worth the price for professionals.

Conductor562 · Nov 28, 2012

fsdogwood said:
A company making profit doesn't mean its workers keeping their job.

It happened that, on one Monday, one company posted record revenue,
profit, all beat market; stock up big time, however, on Tuesday, that
company announced a 10% US layoff

I agree. But not buying them guarantees they won't keep their job.

a tale of two wrenches

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