Before I made the claim, I e-mailed Matco directly and there are a couple of sets made here, but the vast majority are Taiwan fare.
Snap-on/Cornwell/MAC/Matco can keep their Asian junk!!!
- Thread starter autoace
- Start date
Before I made the claim, I e-mailed Matco directly and there are a couple of sets made here, but the vast majority are Taiwan fare.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
maybe reversegear can clear this up!
For all above posts, I never said Taiwan fare was'nt a decent tool, I don't like the Pro tool circuit relabeling this stuff at a premium, that is the point. The companies are overseas to exploit low cost labor, and avoid USA environmental regulations, that's all. I only have some Asian tools for my traveling, vistitor, junk yard boxes, otherwise I would like to pay a USA factory worker, and keep
the money here. If our economy wasn't so bad; because of this ****, we could afford to pay a little more for some USA fare.krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
For all above posts, I never said Taiwan fare was'nt a decent tool, I don't like the Pro tool circuit relabeling this stuff at a premium, that is the point. The companies are overseas to exploit low cost labor, and avoid USA environmental regulations, that's all. I only have some Asian tools for my traveling, vistitor, junk yard boxes, otherwise I would like to pay a USA factory worker, and keep
i agree......i would just like to know if the us labeled danaher ratcheting wrenches are 100% us made ( and i doubt it).
My above post is for all the posts
, it just happened to be posted after yours.billymade
Well-known member
Fine minds think alike!
Vinko
Well-known member
Not saying that what I read is necessarily entirely trustworthy, but the Armstrong catalog that I read a while back claims that these things are 100% American made from start-to-finish. Didn't Armstrong recently win the US Armed Services contract too? I'd have thought that a competitor would've spilled the beans had Armstrong been making spurious claims!
interesting, I will have to investigate the Armstrong alternative, but I found no ratcheting wrenches when I looked for them by Armstrong.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
Vinko
Well-known member
I don't use much ratcheting wrenches but we have a set of the Armstrong ratcheting box wrenches from a few years ago. Don't know where or who we got them from, but they're nice enough. I'd rather use a traditional box myself, but I don't do enough work that requires a difference I guess.
To my amateur eye, the Armstrong ratchet box wrenches we had always >>seem<< flimsy, but that's probably just me. On tough stuff, I'm afraid I'll break them, or they'll hurt my hands. But what do I know....
I've used a lot of OTC specialty tools for years and noticed some of them are made in Taiwan. I worked as a boiler and machinery inspector for years. Foreign companies came in and purchased all new equipment. They had five year plans and goals. The US plants were sold as the property was worth more than the company. The US plants were run by the quarter and only looked at profit. It takes time to train employees and CAFTA and NAFTA gutted our manufacturing base. Ross Perot and his charts were on the money.
Senorpablo
Well-known member
"Asian junk?"
These incredibly ignorant, racist and discriminatory statements, as found in this threads title, are getting so old. The quality of a tool has absolutely nothing to do with where it's made. America does not have the monopoly on quality tools I'm very sorry to report. Asia is a large continent, and there is nothing in the soil nor magnetic field there which diminishes the quality of tools produced. As with anywhere else, I'm sure there are good and bad tools produced there.
Now, let's change the subject to crappy American cars...
These incredibly ignorant, racist and discriminatory statements, as found in this threads title, are getting so old. The quality of a tool has absolutely nothing to do with where it's made. America does not have the monopoly on quality tools I'm very sorry to report. Asia is a large continent, and there is nothing in the soil nor magnetic field there which diminishes the quality of tools produced. As with anywhere else, I'm sure there are good and bad tools produced there.
Now, let's change the subject to crappy American cars...
Just because a tool is foreign made (especially in Asia) does not neccessarily mean that it is low quality. If Snap On made their tool in China under the same specification and quality control, the tool should have the same quality as that made in the US except that it would cost less due to lower labor rate (Snap On made more profit). Asia made high quality tools and low quality tools to cater to different markets. Don't compare a $100 Snap On ratchet to a $5 HF ratchet. Compare a $100 Snap On ratchet to a $100 Asian ratchet. If you ask Snap On to make a US made ratchet that cost only $5, it would even be worst than HF due to much higher labor rate. Don't forget that most of the high qaulity steel sold in the US are foreign. I wouldn't be surprise if the tooling machineries (forging, stamping, machining) are foreign made. The only US made part of a tool is probably only the labor. The US does not made everything of high quality. Example include automobile, most electronic products, plastic model kits, etc. Yes, Apple products are made in Taiwan with Taiwanese components. HP high end scientific calculators are engineered in their Asian division in Singapore and assembled in Asia with Asian components. They no longer engineer their own scientific calcultors. They just rebadged Taiwanese calculator. So, I don't think we should just look at HF tools and made the conclusion that all Asian tools are junk. It would be wrong to look at Chevy and conclude that all American autos are junks. HF tools are designed as valued tools and not intended to compete against Snap On. If you want high quality Asian tools, go buy high quality Asian tools. I bought a $40 SK ratchet (US made) which I think is not very high quality. It is very sloppy, loose, and not smooth. I think we need to learn to live with globalization. It is reality. Globalization does not mean low quality. It could be the other way around (look at the auto industries).
Merkava_4
Banned
I think a couple of you guys are missing the point:
The quality of Asian tools is not the whole issue, some of us depend on the industrial industry - including the domestic manufacturing industry - to remain here in the United States so that we may continue to make a living.
The quality of Asian tools is not the whole issue, some of us depend on the industrial industry - including the domestic manufacturing industry - to remain here in the United States so that we may continue to make a living.
eschoendorff
Well-known member
I have to agree with oldtools and Senorpablo. The only reason that (for example) HF tools are lesser quality is because that is what HF imports.
I think a couple of you guys are missing the point:
The quality of Asian tools is not the whole issue, some of us depend on the industrial industry - including the domestic manufacturing industry - to remain here in the United States so that we may continue to make a living.
Merkava is right, I never said they were not decent tools, "junk" is what the pro companies are giving us, by relabeling them at a premium. Why buy Snap-on, if they are essentially Gear Wrench in disquise so to speak, at a higher price??
and on to another thing Senorpablo......................
Don't get your ******* in a bunch, if you don't agree with me, that is your American choice, if you are not an American, or live in our country and don't like it ,then leave, but either way don't be a little ***** on my thread. Go whine somewhere else, like the I like to run Asian chromed steel across my ***, thread and complain about the USA
, I won't post anything because that's your gig.
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eschoendorff
Well-known member
Wait a minute: There was an "I like to run Asian steel across my ***" thread???? How the HELL did I miss that one??? 
reason for above post, is prefering something racist????ya see above and below
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Wait a minute: There was an "I like to run Asian steel across my ***" thread???? How the HELL did I miss that one???
Sure, my wife spawned that phrase about the shiny Snap-on tools, if I spent too much time in the garage
Maybe you should check out my Hazet tool thread, then you can see how you jumped to unfounded conclusions, German tools have proven themselves, I don't care Germans make them. Toptul is a no shell games company, they may prove to be great. THIS IS ABOUT THE DECIET of American pro tool companies with their shell games, about their products. I thought this was a tool blog????????I don't mention Hitler in my Hazet thread, it's about the hardware.
When you lose your job and house, because, your company thinks it can make more money overseas and deem you too expensive, post a new message. Ever hear the German's complain about VW's made in Mexico?? The Mexican people seem to do a fine job, but the German folks don't like the fact they unnecessarily are losing jobs for their original product, no longer made there. It's not right or wrong, but future economy depends on our choices, Snap-on,MAC,Cornwell,Matco,IR,OTC,were originally USA spawned companies, the point of the thread was, I can buy a decent tool for cheap at H.F. I don't want to re-buy a Snap-on one and get the same thing. If that's the case, I'll just buy import stuff, because, there is no difference at that point. If you are correct the products are all going to merge into a name game, so I guess if that happens we won't need companies like MAC, because the Stanley is the same thing. I e-mailed MAC before I sold all my MAC tools on e-bay, Because, Stanley tools I bought at Wal-Mart out of state for an emergency were outlasting the MAC stuff,pathetic, so the USA also needs to revamp their production to "old days" standards, there is no pride anymore,my great grandfather would weep.
Senorpablo
Well-known member
If I jumped to conclusions it was due to the exact verbiage of your title. "Asian junk," implies that everything from Asia is junk--it's derogatory to the continent, as well as the people who currently live there, or have a heritage from there or even know someone who does.
Just because you are impressed with one brand of tool which just happens to be made in Germany, you're content that all German tools are not junk? I'm certain that if we looked hard enough, we could dig up some crappy German made tools, just as we could find some great Asian made ones.
It sounds to me like your problem is with the American tool companies importing tools, and overcharging your for them. Why bring the Asians into it? Perhaps "Imported junk" is more appropriate in this instance?
eschoendorff
Well-known member
eschoendorff
Well-known member
You hit it exactly.
The quality of many imports these days is not the issue.
The issue is that US manufacturers are moving production offshore at an exponential rate, but they are trying to hide that fact from US consumers
.
They all know what "Made in USA" means to a US consumer, but they also know how much more profit they can make by sourcing elsewhere. Pride and patriotism are long gone, replaced by the almighty dollar.
The manufacturers also know that "Made in China" or "Made in Taiwan" have a negative connotation among consumers, and they are doing everything they possibly can to conceal those origins.
Their practices are intentionally deceptive, and range from whoring well-known US brands out to foreign manufacturers to hiding the country of origin labeling or omitting it entirely.
The Code of Federal Regulations, Title 19 Part 134 is an interesting read. It specifically details labeling requirements for imported items. These requirements are routinely ignored by US marketers and retailers, and consumers have no idea what they are buying.
"Made in China" in microscopic print on the back of the package where you will never see it unless you are looking for it with a magnifying glass? Violation.
Imported tools that reach the consumer without origin information anywhere on the tool or the packaging? Violation.
Imported tools or packaging that have "American", "USA" or the name of a US location on them, but do not have the origin country indicated in close proximity in the same size typeface? Violation.
Imported items that are specifically required to have the origin country permanently marked on the tool itself (this includes pliers and knives) but do not? Violation.
US Customs and the FTC are tasked with enforcing these laws, but it seems they ignore the violations. Why?
The only conclusion I can come up with is that the US government is actively assisting the manufacturers and retailers in deceiving consumers and dismantling our country.
/rant
Merkava_4
Banned
I'm thinking the first guy to move his company off shore was the greedy ******* seeking to take a swim in cash and profits, but the second and third guy to move his company off shore were trying to survive in an unfair, highly competitive business environment. Then again, I may be reading too much from the Manufacturing & Technology News site.
I'm thinking the first guy to move his company off shore was the greedy ******* seeking to take a swim in cash and profits, but the second and third guy to move his company off shore were trying to survive in an unfair, highly competitive business environment. Then again, I may be reading too much from the Manufacturing & Technology News site.
There is nothing wrong with trying to make a profit, but to do it by actively deceiving your customers is not just wrong, it's illegal.
Merkava_4
Banned
The root cause of this whole mess is China's devalued on purpose currency; if they were to quit anchoring there yuan to our dollar and let it float to its real value, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
EDIT:
"In order to maintain its undervalued currency, the Chinese central bank purchases huge amounts of foreign exchange, up from $430 billion in 2007 to a projected $600 billion in 2008. These purchases are then "sterilized" to avoid inflation by requiring banks to hold a corresponding increase of government securities, which means less bank credit at higher cost for the private sector. The result is less growth in domestic demand, which is supposed to be the offset for a reduced external surplus.
These are the basic facts. The benchmarks for Chinese currency misalignment are large-scale central bank purchases, at $600 billion this year, and the current account surplus, at 11 percent of gross domestic product in 2007. Both are far beyond precedent for a major trading nation, and the misalignment is even larger this year than last."
By Ernest Preeg, Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI
EDIT:
"In order to maintain its undervalued currency, the Chinese central bank purchases huge amounts of foreign exchange, up from $430 billion in 2007 to a projected $600 billion in 2008. These purchases are then "sterilized" to avoid inflation by requiring banks to hold a corresponding increase of government securities, which means less bank credit at higher cost for the private sector. The result is less growth in domestic demand, which is supposed to be the offset for a reduced external surplus.
These are the basic facts. The benchmarks for Chinese currency misalignment are large-scale central bank purchases, at $600 billion this year, and the current account surplus, at 11 percent of gross domestic product in 2007. Both are far beyond precedent for a major trading nation, and the misalignment is even larger this year than last."
By Ernest Preeg, Manufacturers Alliance/MAPI
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phi2039
Well-known member
In the interest of discretion, and to ensure that I am able to provide as much information as possible without breaching any existing agreements, let's just say that I am involved with Danaher on a daily basis (5 days a week), and that I can assure all readers that the information I post comes from firsthand observations. It is my objective to ensure that all those reading have access to all (reasonable) information that they would like, and that they feel it is being provided in an honest and straightforward manner. I would like for the buyers of Danaher products, both OEM and branded, do so in an informed and confident fashion...so ask away. I will answer what I can and attempt to point you in the right direction for information on what I cannot.
As for your concerns regarding Craftsman quality, I am going to need a little more information to provide a relevant answer. If you can help to narrow the scope of the question a bit, or can give me few examples, I will see if I can help provide some useful information.
phi2039
Well-known member
I am not sure who it was that you spoke with, but I have, in fact, witnessed the manufacture of the Armstrong, Craftsman, and Matco gear rings and wrench bodies in the Dallas, TX facility. My most recent visit to that facility was in January of this year. I also had the opportunity to watch the very skilled assembly of these wrenches in the same facility. It took me a good minute to put one together. The young lady who showed me the procedure can do one in about 6 seconds...
I am sorry that you have been given conflicting information. If you would like to PM me the name of whom you spoke to and when, I will see if I can get some resolution for you.
phi2039
Well-known member
They are.
The question of 'What does it mean to be made in the USA?' has been and continues to be a source of significant friction between hand tool manufacturers. In fact, the current Armstrong catalog has a whole page that speaks to this point.
Danaher believes that US made tools are those that are fabricated from 'Forge to Finish' in the USA, and you can count on the fact that all of their tools stamped 'U.S.A.' meet that criteria.
Given the actions being taken by other manufacturers in an attempt to capture the price premiums offered by US-Made tools, I am not surprised that many still remain skeptical.
The question of 'What does it mean to be made in the USA?' has been and continues to be a source of significant friction between hand tool manufacturers. In fact, the current Armstrong catalog has a whole page that speaks to this point.
Danaher believes that US made tools are those that are fabricated from 'Forge to Finish' in the USA, and you can count on the fact that all of their tools stamped 'U.S.A.' meet that criteria.
Given the actions being taken by other manufacturers in an attempt to capture the price premiums offered by US-Made tools, I am not surprised that many still remain skeptical.
phi2039
Well-known member
Danaher did win a significant government contract to supply tools to the armed forces, and you are correct that all of those tools must comply with the terms set out in the Berry Amendment. For hand tools, this generally requires tools made in the US or another compliant country (China, Taiwan, Korea,... are not compliant countries). The contract was won in partnership with Pelican boxes.
It just happens that the Asian imports were the ones in question at this time. It wasn't meant as a derogatory statement of any people. I think you are being a little over touchy, but that's your view.
My father was a VP for a large manufacturing company, Besides Taiwan, they have started to manufacture in India, the next frontier after Asia is exhausted I guess.
Did you know that most companies actually "exploit" the people in the countries they manufacture in. Part of the reason it is cheaper is low safety regulation, poor environmental responsibility, and taking advantage of folks wanting to better their life, and working. All this so they can make a bigger profit. That's why India is on the hook now, The Asian culture is wise to this BS and as time goes on, they will demand the same things the original home country requires, it's bad business.
I mentioned Top Tul, they look like a company that is up to snuff with previous USA etc. manufacturing facility. Anyhow no shell games, they advertise what they are, I don't know too much about them as of yet, but It looks promising.
I have a Chinese/American buddy that works with me sometimes, he calls my USA sourced tools "round eye candy" with a snicker, we both laugh. You should save your defensive attitude for people who really criticize in a hateful manner, not because someone didn't choose every word right with no malicious intent. Sorry you got upset, but don't kill a fly with a shotgun.
reversegear
Well-known member
Don't know how I missed this thread...
Autoace, don't get too excited about the Hazet ratchet wrenches. They are made by Danaher's Lea Way factory in Taiwan.
phi2039 is right about Danaher's Made in USA brands. As we discussed a couple of months ago, the only other Made in USA ratchet wrench was a Proto monstrosity, and I'm pretty sure it is discontinued.
But I would disagree with phi2039 that the overseas Gearwrench products are of equivalent quality to their US-Made counterparts. The product from China is not as good as that from Taiwan, and for ratchet wrenches at least, Danaher's US facility still beats Lea Way. If you don't believe me, go ask Danaher's European customers, who are getting pretty fed up with some of the problems with Sata (Danaher's China factory) quality.
The Gearwrench brand was introduced by Danaher. The actual tool was invented by a guy named Bobby Hu, when he worked at Lea Way before they were bought by Danaher. Minor quibble. Regarding quality, Gearwrench quality is... adequate.
Autoace, don't get too excited about the Hazet ratchet wrenches. They are made by Danaher's Lea Way factory in Taiwan.
phi2039 is right about Danaher's Made in USA brands. As we discussed a couple of months ago, the only other Made in USA ratchet wrench was a Proto monstrosity, and I'm pretty sure it is discontinued.
But I would disagree with phi2039 that the overseas Gearwrench products are of equivalent quality to their US-Made counterparts. The product from China is not as good as that from Taiwan, and for ratchet wrenches at least, Danaher's US facility still beats Lea Way. If you don't believe me, go ask Danaher's European customers, who are getting pretty fed up with some of the problems with Sata (Danaher's China factory) quality.
The Gearwrench brand was introduced by Danaher. The actual tool was invented by a guy named Bobby Hu, when he worked at Lea Way before they were bought by Danaher. Minor quibble. Regarding quality, Gearwrench quality is... adequate.
wrenhandtools
Well-known member
wow. You guys really care a ton. It is very educational for me to read a thread like this. And I have respect for the positions put forward as well.
From purely a business model point of view, a company typically wants to do one thing...move product. And this goal doesn't have to be exclusive of quality either.
From looking just at the marketing side of things......the big NASCAR sponsors ..etc.....well...those dollars have to come from SOMEWHERE. And that somewhere is the buyer of their tools. And that is fine if there is true substance....that you can't get somewhere else for a better price. But this last point, I think, is just now starting to close in the the big names.
When you add to this that the average snap on driver is barely making it...in debt up to his eyeballs and paying interest on his truck.....tool inventory.......paying his fuel......etc......it does not paint a pretty picture.
From my point of view, the tool industry is ripe to be taken over by a provider that can deliver a professional quality tool, at a lower price to the buyer....no matter where the tool is made as long as it's of the same high quality as a (insert your favorite brand here) And I am not saying this because of the toptul gig. I think any busniess or business person given the right manufacturing facility....no matter where it was located....and with enough money for advertising to increase awareness......would put the high priced brands here in the US into SERIOUS DIFFICULTY in short order. The current prices on a lot of products from these big names are simply too high for the income of most buyers. Pure and simple, they would have to change their business model or go the way of the Dodo bird.
From purely a business model point of view, a company typically wants to do one thing...move product. And this goal doesn't have to be exclusive of quality either.
From looking just at the marketing side of things......the big NASCAR sponsors ..etc.....well...those dollars have to come from SOMEWHERE. And that somewhere is the buyer of their tools. And that is fine if there is true substance....that you can't get somewhere else for a better price. But this last point, I think, is just now starting to close in the the big names.
When you add to this that the average snap on driver is barely making it...in debt up to his eyeballs and paying interest on his truck.....tool inventory.......paying his fuel......etc......it does not paint a pretty picture.
From my point of view, the tool industry is ripe to be taken over by a provider that can deliver a professional quality tool, at a lower price to the buyer....no matter where the tool is made as long as it's of the same high quality as a (insert your favorite brand here) And I am not saying this because of the toptul gig. I think any busniess or business person given the right manufacturing facility....no matter where it was located....and with enough money for advertising to increase awareness......would put the high priced brands here in the US into SERIOUS DIFFICULTY in short order. The current prices on a lot of products from these big names are simply too high for the income of most buyers. Pure and simple, they would have to change their business model or go the way of the Dodo bird.
The problem is most of the factories are being sold or shut down. Like it or not the warranties have driven costs sky high. Mechanics really take advantage of this using the wrong tool and breaking many everybody pays extra for this.Shipping costs as much as the tool on a lot of my recent tool purchases. I bought a full set of torx plus bits from SK as the didn't have them in stock at SK I got five or more UPS shipments as some came in one at a time. I only paid one shipping fee. Look at a modern tool truck appx. cost 100,000,100,000 inventory,100,000 credit payments. I think in time you will have to buy off the internet.
Some tool companies don't sell on the internet. I asked Cornwell tools 5 years ago if they were going to sell tools online like Snap On and they said it was already in the works! Well you still can't buy tools online from them online! Mac website is so out dated it's worthless!
phi2039
Well-known member
reversegear...Touche! You are correct about the GearWrench origins, and to add to your comment, the original GearWrench was a K-D tool, not a brand. The brand was introduced later, as the line was expanded to include other hand tools. I also agree that the Taiwan plant produces a more consistent product that better meets design specifications than does the China plant (for ratcheting wrenches).
As for quality, it has become clear through the course of this thread that the term 'quality' can have multiple definitions, the choice of which can greatly affect the direction the argument takes. I would suggest that we begin to use the term 'value' in addition to 'quality', so that we can capture the essence of the original post: "am I getting what I pay for?"
In your opinion (all that are interested in answering), how do the following ratcheting wrench lines rate in terms of a) quality of design, b) quality of manufacture, c) performance, and d) value (quality and performance for the money)
- Armstrong
- Blue-Point (Snap-On)
- Craftsman
- GearWrench
- MAC
- Matco
- Snap-On
- Others...?
It would be interesting to get a significant number of opinions to see where everyone stands, and then to see how things change over time.
As for quality, it has become clear through the course of this thread that the term 'quality' can have multiple definitions, the choice of which can greatly affect the direction the argument takes. I would suggest that we begin to use the term 'value' in addition to 'quality', so that we can capture the essence of the original post: "am I getting what I pay for?"
In your opinion (all that are interested in answering), how do the following ratcheting wrench lines rate in terms of a) quality of design, b) quality of manufacture, c) performance, and d) value (quality and performance for the money)
- Armstrong
- Blue-Point (Snap-On)
- Craftsman
- GearWrench
- MAC
- Matco
- Snap-On
- Others...?
It would be interesting to get a significant number of opinions to see where everyone stands, and then to see how things change over time.
phi2039
Well-known member
Wow...I seem to have killed the thread...It was just a thought