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Two questions about wiring my new-to-me shop, please

FTG-05

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My wife and I won an auction over the weekend for a house, shop and property.

While the shop is currently wired, I'll be adding more lights, outlets and specialty wiring (exhaust fan, air compressor etc.) to it as I go along.

Here's a pic of the shop from the mezzanine, you can see the 200 amp CB box right behind the tractor. Please ignore the mess, that's the current owner's stuff, it's all moved out now.

IMG_0244_zps71a35739.jpg


So, my first question is: what kind of wiring can I use to wire this shop. I *assume* I can use this Indoor non-metallic wire from Lowe's or it's equivalent: http://www.lowes.com/pd_70114-295-28829055_4294722493__?productId=3129313&Ns=p_product_price|1 If not, what can I/should I use?

2nd question: The shop dimensions are approximately 36'x76'. When I string the wire, I'll have to go about 20' for so up to clear the doors and then come back down again. For typical 20 amp outlets, should I use 10 ga wire or is 12 ga good enough for the longer wiring distances inside this shop?

Thanks,
 
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soj

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Wow, what a mess! Good that he cleaned it up for you, but I hope he left the two post lift.

Congrats on winning the auction.

Full disclosure: I am not an electrician, but if give wrong advice, there are electricians here who can/will correct me.

Type NM (what you showed from Lowe's) cable can be used, you have plenty of wood to staple it to.

I would not use 10GA, it is too hard to work with in outlet boxes, and is not needed for 20A outlet circuits. 12GA should be fine up to 100 feet.

Also, if any of your larger, 240V loads will be across the shop from the main panel, you might want to consider adding a sub panel. One feeder circuit across 70 feet will be cheaper than running multiple #6, 8 or 10GA circuits. Depends on where you will need to locate the loads and the distance from that main panel. Also, you could feed some of your 120V, 20A outlet circuits from that sub panel and have shorter circuits.
jp
 
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soj

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Sorry this is off topic, but now is the time to mention it... I see the shop is not insulated, that metal roof and siding will be an oven in summer... and deep freeze in winter. If you ever plan to insulate, now would be the time to get it sprayed with foam. Of course with foam on the walls and nothing to staple NM cable to, then you would need to wire in conduit, or add nailing strips for the NM cable. So... not so far off topic after all! Just something to consider.
 

2ManyProjects

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My wife and I won an auction over the weekend for a house, shop and property.

While the shop is currently wired, I'll be adding more lights, outlets and specialty wiring (exhaust fan, air compressor etc.) to it as I go along.

OK, first things first... Congratulations on the new (to you) property. I'm guessing that you're pretty excited about the possibilities it provides, and are champing at the bit to dive in and start work. HOWEVER... I would suggest that the more you can resist that urge, the better off you will be in the long run. NOW is the time to plan EVERYTHING out, down to the last gory detail, even if you don't intend to implement everything immediately (or even "ever" in the case of some of the more ambitious items, such as full air-conditioning, or in-floor heat, or whatever your "Dream Shop" might comprise -- plan for it anyway, and it won't be a problem if/when you change your mind). This includes not only the electrical (tho' that is of course a major part of it); but also your general layout of the shop (i.e., exactly where your workbench and any major stationary tools will be located, etc.), plumbing, HVAC, insulation (in Alabama -- even "northern" Alabama -- you are DEFINITELY going to need all the insulation you can get), whatever you're going to do in terms of surface treatments (floor, walls, ceiling if any, etc.), cabinetry and other storage facilities, and so on. The point here is, you want to do each of these things ONCE, and not have to tear out or modify one thing when you get around to doing the next thing. So...

PlanAhead_02-bmp.bmp



Here's a pic of the shop from the mezzanine, you can see the 200 amp CB box right behind the tractor.

That's already some good news. Most "home" shops don't have the luxury of such a large/high-capacity panel. You may not (probably won't) ever use anything like 200A in there; but it's still really nice to have breaker slots to burn, when it comes time to start adding things. Is it a sub-panel fed from the house's main service panel, or an independently metered service direct from the PoCo? If the former, what sort of service capacity does the main panel have, and what size breaker is protecting the feeder to the shop?

Please ignore the mess, that's the current owner's stuff, it's all moved out now.

Actually, some of that "mess" looks like it could be some interesting/useful stuff. But if it's gone, it's gone; and at least that gives you a relatively clean slate to work with. ;)

So, my first question is: what kind of wiring can I use to wire this shop. I *assume* I can use this Indoor non-metallic wire from Lowe's or it's equivalent: http://www.lowes.com/pd_70114-295-28829055_4294722493__?productId=3129313&Ns=p_product_price|1 If not, what can I/should I use?

Yes, you can use "NM-x" cable indoors. The particular stuff you pointed to is AWG 10, which may be (probably is) overkill for at least some things. But see below regarding Voltage Drop. Also, if you're going to install as much stuff as I suspect you're planning on, you would probably be better off buying the wire in larger (say, 1,000-ft. spool) quantities.

2nd question: The shop dimensions are approximately 36'x76'. When I string the wire, I'll have to go about 20' for so up to clear the doors and then come back down again.

Twenty feet? Really? Offhand, that seems excessive. Just how tall are those doors, anyway? (I'm betting no more than about twelve feet, even for the larger one.) And besides, it would at least appear that you would not need to go all the way up for any runs which lead back along the left-hand (as viewed from the camera position) side wall.

For typical 20 amp outlets, should I use 10 ga wire or is 12 ga good enough for the longer wiring distances inside this shop?

Most folks will tell you that AWG 12 is fine for "20A" outlets, and leave it at that. And in MOST cases, they'd even be right. However, if the wiring runs are especially long, going to a heavier wire (such as AWG 10) CAN be beneficial, even if not strictly "required". The reason for this is, ALL wire, no matter how heavy or how short, will exhibit SOME resistance; and in turn, that resistance will impose SOME voltage drop along the way. The question becomes, how much is "too much"? AFAIK, there is no "official" hard-and-fast limit on allowable voltage drop dictated by the NEC or similar. But that doesn't mean this isn't an important consideration. IMCO, a good rule of thumb is to allow no more than 3.0% voltage drop at the full rated load on any circuit (and ideally, some sensitive equipment really shouldn't see even that much). This translates to a 3.6V maximum loss on a 120V branch circuit, or a 7.2V maximum loss on a 240V circuit -- and less is ALWAYS better.

Now, you may be thinking, "Wonderful. So how do I determine how much voltage drop a given circuit will impose?" The answer is, you need to map out each and every wiring run, to determine it's total effective length, then calculate the required wire size needed to limit the V.D. at full load to your desired target over that length. (As a practical matter, you only need to calculate this for your LONGEST run of a given type of circuit & wiring, such as 120V branch circuits for general purpose 20A outlets. Whatever AWG is "good enough" for that one longest run, will be more than good enough for all the shorter ones.)

There is a formula you can use to fairly precisely calculate the voltage drop over a given length of wire of a given size, with a given current flowing through it:

CM = K x I x L / E

where:

CM = Circular Mil area of Conductors
K = 10.75 (Constant representing the approximate mil-foot resistance of copper)
I = Current (Maximum), in Amperes
L = Length, ROUND TRIP to the source, in feet
E = Voltage drop at load (in volts)

This will determine the MINIMUM cross-sectional area for each current-carrying conductor in your cable. As noted above, you typically want to limit the allowable voltage drop to no more than 3% of the nominal input voltage (i.e., 3.6V for a "120V" circuit). And note, that "ROUND TRIP" qualifier on the run length is vitally important; so given "normal" wiring techniques, such as using NM-x cable or similar, you MUST double the actual run length before plugging that value into the formula. I would also suggest that you arbitrarily add at least 10 feet (maybe more) to your calculated/measured run length for each splice in the line between source and ultimate destination (and yes, splicing both the Hot and the Neutral conductors, as would normally be the case when daisy-chaining from one outlet box to the next, counts as TWO splices). Now, before folks start arguing with me, I have to point out that this is by no means a precise value (because it's next to impossible to be precise here); but the point is, all splices, no matter how skillfully done, WILL impose significantly more resistance than an unmolested run of wire, and you should take that into consideration when calculating maximum voltage drop.

So... With all that in mind, solve for "CM". Then consult the chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Tables_of_AWG_wire_sizes (note that they list cross-sectional area it in KILO-circular mils ("kcmil"); so multiply by 1,000 for use with the above-cited formula) to find the smallest standard AWG which will provide AT LEAST that much cross-sectional area. Voilà!

Here's a sample calculation for that prototypical "20A outlet" circuit, with the last box 50 feet away from the panel (as the wire flies), and splices in two intermediate boxes along the way:

CM = K x I x L / E
CM = 10.75 x 20 x 140 / 3.6
CM = 30,100 / 3.6
CM = 8,361.11

Referring to the above-cited chart, we find that AWG 12 provides only 6,530 CM; so yes, you'd want to use AWG 10 (at 10,400 CM) for this circuit. Could you "get away with" AWG 12? Very probably yes. But your tools and such (particularly those with motors in them) won't run as well or last as long.

Also, obviously, one way to mitigate this problem is to avoid splices at almost all costs. In the above example, we would have been just fine with AWG 12, if there were no splices in the line. One way to do this, WITHOUT requiring separate runs to (and concomitantly, a separate breaker for) each and every outlet, is to NOT actually cut & splice the wire when installing outlets and such "in the middle" of a run. Instead, loop the unbroken cable into and back out of the box, then strip off a short chunk of the jacket and insulation only as/where needed to make the connections to the screw terminals on the outlet. You probably ought to also run an extra pigtail of bare copper from the green screw to the inside of the box itself, if it is a metal box (which it probably ought to be, in this application). Note that some nit-pickers MIGHT have a problem with this technique from a code point of view (I recall seeing an argument over this point awhile back, but I don't remember which way was considered preferable by the code); but in practice, it's done all the time without issue -- MANY of the outlets in both of my homes were installed this way (yes, by "licensed professional" electricians).

Obviously, this just scratches the surface of all the things you will no doubt be dealing with as you move in and start to upgrade that shop. But I hope it at least answers your immediate questions. In any event, good luck with your new (and, I suspect, to become never-ending) project! ;)

 
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Aceman

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I didn't read the book posted above, but one way to help kill two birds with one stone is to set a subpanel on the opposite side of the building. Since the wire feeding the sub would be large enough for all the combined loads on that side of the building, it will take a lot of the voltage drop out of the equation with the added bonus of having a panel right next to the receps and equipment it feeds.

The real world answer though, is most folks wire shops like yours all the time with #12 and don't have a problem. It all depends on what your incoming voltage is.
 
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FTG-05

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To answer some questions brought up:

- Yes, I won the two post lift as well during the auction (to split it out from the property/shop was :eyecrazy: )

- My biggest concern with 12 ga all the way across the shop was mainly for the shop exhaust fan that I will install. Don't know what size yet (bigger is better) so therefore don't know the amp requirements (and therefore the possible drop, which I consider bad). BTW, the land, shop and house are in SW Lincoln County, TN and a little higher in elevation, so not quite as hot as AL but close enough. Yea, wall insulation is in the planning but further out by several years.

I never considered a subpanel. That might be just the ticket. The big user of power on the complete opposite end of the shop (about 20 feet behind where the pic was taken) will be a (probably) 7.5 HP 2 stage air compressor. If I'm hearing you guys right, I could (have) run one 6 ga cable to a subpanel and feed any ancillary 120 VAC circuits I wanted (shop exhaust fan) plus enough juice for a 7.5 HP (50 amp?) air compressor. Is that right?

Oh, sorry about this, but eat your hearts out!

976038-1104221329407316-l_zps81342c70.jpg


PS. Thanks for 2Many for his thoughts on planning ahead. As a retired Boeing engineer (+32 1/2 years) I'm sorta used to doing that, so that will happen here as well, thanks for reminding me!
 

2ManyProjects

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To answer some questions brought up:

- Yes, I won the two post lift as well during the auction (to split it out from the property/shop was :eyecrazy: )

Good show. You're right... Ripping that out to sell separately would have made NO sense.

- My biggest concern with 12 ga all the way across the shop was mainly for the shop exhaust fan that I will install. Don't know what size yet (bigger is better) so therefore don't know the amp requirements (and therefore the possible drop, which I consider bad).

Until you really KNOW those values, there's no real point in guessing at it. But were I to guess... No, AWG 12 would not cut it, especially from all the way across the shop.

BTW, the land, shop and house are in SW Lincoln County, TN and a little higher in elevation, so not quite as hot as AL but close enough. Yea, wall insulation is in the planning but further out by several years.

You might want to re-think that "further out by several years" part. As "soj" pointed out, that metal-sheathed building WILL become (near-literally) an oven when the Sun beats on it. I seriously doubt it would be safely (let alone "comfortably") inhabitable on a mid-Summer afternoon, even with God's gift to exhaust fans churning away. Is there at least some decent insulation in the roof, yet? In your shoes, I would consider maxing-out the insulation (both walls and roof, but especially the latter) to be my #1 priority -- probably even before the electrical upgrades, at least in terms of importance (however, you near-certainly DO want to get your electrical rough-ins done before installing the insulation, just to make the job easier).

I never considered a subpanel. That might be just the ticket. The big user of power on the complete opposite end of the shop (about 20 feet behind where the pic was taken) will be a (probably) 7.5 HP 2 stage air compressor.

That's a damn serious compressor, especially if you're not also using it to run the lift (like the old in-ground single-post lifts which were common in service stations perhaps 20-40 years ago). Why so large? Also, such large electric motors are often 3-phase types. Do you have 3-phase service to that building?

If I'm hearing you guys right, I could (have) run one 6 ga cable to a subpanel and feed any ancillary 120 VAC circuits I wanted (shop exhaust fan) plus enough juice for a 7.5 HP (50 amp?) air compressor. Is that right?

According to the chart I found online (which MAY be somewhat obsolete), AWG 6 copper is nominally good for 55-75 amps, depending on the insulation rating. But motors -- especially big-HP motors -- have their own set of rules. These rules are not my forte; but in general, they tend to require still-larger supply wiring than would be implied by the nominal amp draw alone. Bottom Line: If your figure of 50 amps for the compressor draw is even close to accurate, an AWG 6 sub-panel feeder would very likely be at least nearly maxed out before you even got to any additional branch circuits. Plus, there is still the matter of voltage drop to consider (yes, that applies to the sub-panel feeder, too).

Oh, sorry about this, but eat your hearts out!

Looks like some nice country. How many acres? A few years ago, I seriously considered buying a small-ish mountaintop in western Virginia or North Carolina (i.e., in the foothills to the Blue Ridge Mountains), to eventually build my "get away from it all" retirement mecca. There are (or at least "were") some really gorgeous middlin'-size (20-50 acres) tracts available at very attractive prices (notwithstanding that most of the ones which most appealed to me were sufficiently remote that I'd have to put some bucks into infrastructure to make them usable). But alas, my wife vetoed that idea when she figured out how many hours away the grandchildren would then be. :(

PS. Thanks for 2Many for his thoughts on planning ahead. As a retired Boeing engineer (+32 1/2 years) I'm sorta used to doing that, so that will happen here as well, thanks for reminding me!

You're welcome; and good on you for being in the habit!

Parting thought: With as many things as you have to plan for (and to juggle while making those plans), you just might want to start by making some detailed drawings of the building, so you can then accurately lay out your work areas, any interior partitions, electrical, plumbing, etc., before lifting the first screwdriver. If you don't already have a CADD package you're used to using, I would suggest you take a look at http://librecad.org/cms/home.html. It's Open Source (read; "Free", in all senses of that term); is available for all major platforms (Linux, Mac OSX, and WinBlows); and while it's no Adobe Inventor (Thank Ghod!), it works quite well for relatively simple applications (and yes, 2-D architectural drawings do qualify as "relatively simple", in this context).

FWIW, and all that.


 
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FTG-05

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2Many, you and think too alike! I specifically came in here this morning to find out what kind of program I could use to diagram out my shop and here you have it already and waiting for me!!!! Outstanding!

I'll have to take a look at it later since we need to meet a "kitchen consultant" at our new place. I don't know what a "kitchen consultant" is but is sounds like $$$ to me!!! Oh well; the kitchen is what I bribed my wife to get this place even though it's at the end of a one mile gravel driveway and the nearest neighbor is right around 1/4 mile away.

Thanks!!!
 

pattenp

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Since some off the wall numbers were thrown out about #6 copper and the amps, I'll clarify. If the sub-panel is fed with #6 NM-b then the amp rating is 55. If the feed is #6 THHN in conduit then the amp rating is 65. If using aluminum then the numbers will be different.
 

2ManyProjects

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2Many, you and think too alike! I specifically came in here this morning to find out what kind of program I could use to diagram out my shop and here you have it already and waiting for me!!!! Outstanding!

I live to serve. :thumbup:

I'll have to take a look at it later since we need to meet a "kitchen consultant" at our new place. I don't know what a "kitchen consultant" is but is sounds like $$$ to me!!!

Its a pretentious term for "salesman". The pretense is intended to justify those extra "$$$"s. The really good ones can get you to pay for the time they spend developing their sales pitch.

Oh well; the kitchen is what I bribed my wife to get this place even though it's at the end of a one mile gravel driveway and the nearest neighbor is right around 1/4 mile away.

:drool:

Sounds almost like Heaven -- except that neighbor might still be a tad too close. ;)

 

jvitez

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.... even though it's at the end of a one mile gravel driveway and the nearest neighbor is right around 1/4 mile away.

Thanks!!!

Nearest neighbour 1/4 mile away? Those views? One mile driveway all to yourself? 2700 sq ft shop? It sounds like heaven to me! :thumbup: Congrats!!

Funny how you had to bribe the Mrs. to get all that, but male and female brains do fire on different synapses. :) I had to tdo the same thing. I let my Mrs. have whatever she wanted in the kitchen and I got my basement workshop and garage.

I also find it interesting how different the Canadian Electric Code can be from the NEC. We're allowed to load #6 copper to 60 amps, but 120 volt lighting and receptacle circuits are 15 amps max, but we don't need GFCI protection inside a garage either. The CEC says one 15 amp circuit per vehicle space is required as a block heater circuit.

If were in the US I'd use 12/2 NM/20 amp breaker for garage receptacle circuits like others recommend.

I replaced the regular receptacles with spec-grade ones and put two at each location. I considered running two circuits per box but the wiring was already there.
 

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FTG-05

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Visited the land today to mow some grass while the wife reviewed her kitchen options. Yep, +$20K just for the cabinets, prolly north of $40K for the kitchen. We'll see some real numbers when the construction foreman gets out there Monday.

Oh, and the KC is just that, just a consultant, she won't be doing any of the work or involved in the construction, just design. $150 for the first consultation. Oh well, shop almost bigger than our current house (+2700 sq ft), pole barn, +12 acres pasture, +20 acres woods, lots of deer and turkey, tractor, UTV (eventually) and I get to do to my shop what she's doing to her kitchen - could be a whole lot worse. :)

The shop has 32 breaker spaces, 14 are currently in use for lights, doors, lift and welder output (which happens to be the same as my welder, so no changes there). Woeful lack of outlets IMO. Worse, there is a "North" branch and a "South" branch. Not good. One of the first things I'll fix.

I did confirm the previous owner/electrician used 12 ga NM-"X" type wire, so that's what I'll get more, probably a 500 foot drum (where best to get this - it probably won't be Lowe's or HD).

Ok, 2Many asked about why the 7.5 hp compressor: I have no clue what I'll end up with yet. But I figured it would be better to plan big rather than small and then regret it later. Plus, when was the last time you heard someone state about air compressors: "Smaller is better." Yea, me neither.

If I was to get one today, it would be this one: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200350477_200350477 (7.5 HP Quincy, 230 single phase, 40 amps, 175 psi, +22 cfm at 175). If I design and build around that, then anything else should be able to work without having to change anything. At least that's my thinking right now.

I still need to look at the diagraming/planning software, haven't had time today, maybe tomorrow.

Thanks,
 
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wyliesdiesels

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2manyprojects- your resistance value for copper is incorrect! Not sure why u keep using this figure or where u found it but its definitely NOT the value used by the NEC!
 

jvitez

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What's with the "doily" around the outlet?

The doily is because I'm a delicate gentleman who appreciates pretty things......:D

It's a vapour barrier pan. Once I finish installing the 6 mil poly vapour barrier I'll use red sheathing tape (we call it Tuck Tape) to seal the edges of the pan to the vapour barrier. We need a warm-in-winter vapour barrier because of our cold winters, and every penetration has to be sealed. An older way is to cut a 1ft x 1ft piece of vapour barrier and use acoustical sealant to air seal it.

Here's an explanation:

http://www.house-improvements.com/vapor-barrier-poly-installation
 

sberry

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Only time V drop would matter on a real long run wouild be if it was fully loaded, 20A to the gills. Most things plugged in to these circuits are 15A and on occasion if I am not running a sub I upgrade a wire or run a mwbc if I am going to combine loads.

Just did one where we ran across a large building, was 120 ft of wire just to the other side, used 10. If we thought we would add to this one we would have added a panel, we had a couple rolls of 10 already, we don't use 25% of what we wired it for as it is.
 

soj

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The doily is because I'm a delicate gentleman who appreciates pretty things......:D

It's a vapour barrier pan. Once I finish installing the 6 mil poly vapour barrier I'll use red sheathing tape (we call it Tuck Tape) to seal the edges of the pan to the vapour barrier. We need a warm-in-winter vapour barrier because of our cold winters, and every penetration has to be sealed. An older way is to cut a 1ft x 1ft piece of vapour barrier and use acoustical sealant to air seal it.

Here's an explanation:

http://www.house-improvements.com/vapor-barrier-poly-installation

Thanks for the explanation. I figured I was showing my ignorance by trying to be a smart-***, thanks for taking it with a smile.:lol: I knew about vapor barrier, but had never heard of a vapor pan for electrical boxes. GJ must be THE MOST educational site on the web!
 

2ManyProjects

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Visited the land today to mow some grass while the wife reviewed her kitchen options. Yep, +$20K just for the cabinets, prolly north of $40K for the kitchen. We'll see some real numbers when the construction foreman gets out there Monday.

Don't be surprised if it goes higher, possibly MUCH higher. When I re-did my shore house some years ago, just the cabinets & countertops for the Kitchen, one Bath, and a small laundry area, ate up at least 30-40% of the entire job costs. This was in the context of a COMPLETE "gut & start over" interior remodelling, including moving several walls and removing part of an exterior wall (which in turn necessitated installing a rather "serious" MicroLam beam) to "take over" what had been a screen porch, all new Pella windows, lots of plumbing & electrical, and probably a whole slew of other stuff that I'm (mercifully) forgetting by now.

Oh, and the KC is just that, just a consultant, she won't be doing any of the work or involved in the construction, just design. $150 for the first consultation.

Interesting. That could be either a blessing or a curse, depending on how she goes about her job. Around here, it's common for the Kitchen & Bath sub to be sort of a "one stop shopping" operation, including the design services as well as supplying & installing the cabinets & countertops. In my case, I already had 90+% of the design work done (with the CADD drawings to match) when I walked into the showroom; but that plan did change somewhat by the time it actually got built.

Oh well, shop almost bigger than our current house (+2700 sq ft), pole barn, +12 acres pasture, +20 acres woods, lots of deer and turkey, tractor, UTV (eventually) and I get to do to my shop what she's doing to her kitchen - could be a whole lot worse. :)

Now you're just bragging! :p

Ok, 2Many asked about why the 7.5 hp compressor: I have no clue what I'll end up with yet. But I figured it would be better to plan big rather than small and then regret it later. Plus, when was the last time you heard someone state about air compressors: "Smaller is better." Yea, me neither.

If I was to get one today, it would be this one: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200350477_200350477 (7.5 HP Quincy, 230 single phase, 40 amps, 175 psi, +22 cfm at 175). If I design and build around that, then anything else should be able to work without having to change anything. At least that's my thinking right now.

Sounds like a very reasonable approach, to me. Just remember, if you if you go the sub-panel route, you have to assume that the compressor WILL be running (or worse, "starting") at any/all times, and therefore size the panel (and its feeder) generously enough to accommodate that PLUS whatever other loads you're going to have on that side of the shop.

I still need to look at the diagraming/planning software, haven't had time today, maybe tomorrow.

Understand, its a real CADD package; so it offers no task-specific shortcuts (such as some consumer-targeted "Kitchen Planner" / "Electrical Planner" / "Whatever Planner" programs do, for example.) It's simply about lines on paper. But given that, it's also completely flexible, and can be used for basically anything you want to draw, including full construction-quality architectural drawings. OTOH, if you're concerned ONLY with the electrical diagrams, per se, then possibly something like "Visio" (yuck!), or the "Draw" component from Open Office or (better) Libre Office, would have a somewhat less steep learning curve.


2manyprojects- your resistance value for copper is incorrect!

Perhaps that's because that formula does not use ANY "resistance value for copper", per se. The figure you are apparently referring to is a unitless constant, which IN THAT FORMULA provides an approximation of a typical copper wire's resistance per CM-foot. Notably, there is no such thing as a single universally applicable AND universally agreed upon value for that figure. Is it hardened or annealed copper? What is the purity of that Copper? Do we want to further complicate things by bringing phase angle and power factor into the act (at which point, we also have to distinguish between solid and stranded conductors, and maybe even consider the twist-pitch of the stranded ones)? Are we going to compensate for ambient temperature? Point is, we can complicate this to the point of making it completely unusable, if you want. But what purpose would that serve?

The "bottom line" here is, as I've mentioned before, the results yielded by that formula closely approximate those from several online VD calculators I checked it against before filing it away in my boilerplate collection; and as such, I'm satisfied that it's adequate for it's (obviously informal) intended purpose.

Not sure why u keep using this figure or where u found it but its definitely NOT the value used by the NEC!

If you want references, see "Circular mils and Voltage drop" section at http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/voltage-drop-d_1550.html, or the "DC Circuits" section at http://www.dolphins-software.com/IEEE_ExactFormulae.htm, or Sections 11.14.2.6 through 11.14.2.7.1 (including the attached "Notes") of ABYC standard E-11 (which you can find on Page 11 of http://www.paneltronics.com/atimo_s/news/E11Excerpts.pdf, among other places).

Note that each of these use a slightly different value for "K". None of them are "wrong".

 

wyliesdiesels

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Perhaps that's because that formula does not use ANY "resistance value for copper", per se. The figure you are apparently referring to is a unitless constant, which IN THAT FORMULA provides an approximation of a typical copper wire's resistance per CM-foot. Notably, there is no such thing as a single universally applicable AND universally agreed upon value for that figure. Is it hardened or annealed copper? What is the purity of that Copper? Do we want to further complicate things by bringing phase angle and power factor into the act (at which point, we also have to distinguish between solid and stranded conductors, and maybe even consider the twist-pitch of the stranded ones)? Are we going to compensate for ambient temperature? Point is, we can complicate this to the point of making it completely unusable, if you want. But what purpose would that serve?

The "bottom line" here is, as I've mentioned before, the results yielded by that formula closely approximate those from several online VD calculators I checked it against before filing it away in my boilerplate collection; and as such, I'm satisfied that it's adequate for it's (obviously informal) intended purpose.

If you want references, see "Circular mils and Voltage drop" section at http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/voltage-drop-d_1550.html, or the "DC Circuits" section at http://www.dolphins-software.com/IEEE_ExactFormulae.htm, or Sections 11.14.2.6 through 11.14.2.7.1 (including the attached "Notes") of ABYC standard E-11 (which you can find on Page 11 of http://www.paneltronics.com/atimo_s/news/E11Excerpts.pdf, among other places).

Note that each of these use a slightly different value for "K". None of them are "wrong".


Responding in order of bolded quotes:
*The NEC value is NOT unitless
*Phase angle IS factored into the NEC formula and power factor doesnt matter
*The skin effect related to the stranded vs. solid argument only comes into play with larger conductors
*The NEC does say to compensate for temperature(Chap 9 table 9). I dont bring up temp adjustment because of the many different climates of the members and installs and most of the time when talking about VD, its for buried conductors where ambient temperature doesnt play much of a factor!
*many online VD calcs dont follow NEC guidelines so i dont pay attention to them!

In regards to the site references:

The first one mentions NOTHING about the NEC, the second site lists the EXACT values used by the NEC(did u even check this site?) :dunno:, and the third link has to do with boat wiring, a completely different animal!

Since the NEC is the governing authority when it comes to building wiring, thats what electricians go by!
 
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2ManyProjects

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Responding in order of bolded quotes:

Correction: "Selectively responding to only SOME of the points raised, and thus missing the point by a country mile."

*The NEC value is NOT unitless

So apparently, that's yet another way you're comparing apples to oranges.

*Phase angle IS factored into the NEC formula and power factor doesnt matter

Those two statements can not possibly both be simultaneously true in any given application.

First, at least in this context, power factor is the RESULT of phase angle AT THE LOAD. They are two sides of the same coin. So if one matters (and is hence "factored into" whatever formula you're using), then so too does the other.

Phase angle (or "power factor", if you prefer) AT THE LOAD (and hence, through at least some of the wiring) will be (at least largely) determined by the specific load placed on the circuit (i.e., its inductive and/or capacitive properties). There can be no "one size fits all" value you could possibly use in such a formula without knowing the properties of that load in intimate detail; nor could any one static formula which does not include a separate term for this value do a credible job of accounting for it. For that matter, depending on the sort of load we're talking about, this value may well (and probably will) vary significantly from time to time as the load device operates, thus rendering the idea of plugging ANY one static value into a formula and having it actually mean anything even more silly/useless.

*The skin effect related to the stranded vs. solid argument only comes into play with larger conductors

This is flat-out wrong.

The physics involved don't magically change when you go from one AWG size to the next. You MIGHT, in any given application, arbitrarily decide that the effect is too small to worry about. And you might even be right about that (hence the usefulness of "simplified" formulas, for example). But that certainly doesn't mean that the effect does not exist. And further, the degree to which it DOES show up is primarily a function of the line frequency, NOT the load size.

*The NEC does say to compensate for temperature(Chap 9 table 9). I dont bring up temp adjustment because of the many different climates of the members and installs and most of the time when talking about VD, its for buried conductors where ambient temperature doesnt play much of a factor!

Translation: "I see what I want to see."

*many online VD calcs dont follow NEC guidelines so i dont pay attention to them!

Translation: "I see what I want to see."

In regards to the site references:

The first one mentions NOTHING about the NEC,

So what? Physics is physics. The question under debate is (or at least I thought was), what value(s) can be used in the formula I gave to yield adequately useful/accurate results for the maximum Voltage Drop you will see in any given circuit. The NEC was not even mentioned (at least not by me); and since (at least per your comments above) they use a different formula anyway, it is irrelevant.

the second site lists the EXACT values used by the NEC(did u even check this site?) :dunno:,

Why yes, I did. (How could I have cited the reference, had I not looked at the site?)

and the third link has to do with boat wiring, a completely different animal!

Again, so what? Do you REALLY think the laws of physics magically change if the wire in question happens to be installed in a boat, vs. a 3-bedroom split-level?

The point you are obviously (deliberately?) missing here is that those three different sources each use somewhat different values for "K" in similar formulas for calculating voltage drop. The obvious (and CORRECT) implication is that these formulas are only approximations anyway; so pick whichever one (i.e., whichever value for "K") you prefer, and be happy.

Are there OTHER equally valid (and possibly even more accurate) ways to calculate Voltage Drop? Of course! But at SOME point, the quest for accuracy becomes counterproductive, if it overcomplicates the calculation to the point that it becomes difficult to do (and thus, less likely to be done).

Besides, prudence would dictate that in any "edge cases" where the the calculated AWG just barely covers the initial (and arbitrary) voltage drop target, one would step up to the next-larger size wiring anyway, just to cover contingencies (think "extension cords", for just one example). So this further renders any minor inaccuracy in the formula itself moot.

Since the NEC is the governing authority when it comes to building wiring, thats what electricians go by!

Good for you.

Now, with that in mind, ask yourself how may of the "one size fits all" recommendations which get posted here every day (most of which run along the lines of "Use AWG 14 for 15A circuits, and AWG 12 for 20A circuits.") even make ANY attempt to consider voltage drop?

So I ask you... Which is worse: Someone using a different value for "K" than the one YOU happen to prefer, or someone not doing the calculation at all?

 
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OP
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FTG-05

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Ok, a little update:

- I've decided to not use a subpanel the compressor that will be located in the back corner of the mezzanine (and the farthest distance from the CB box). The only other thing that needs to be powered up on the mezzanine besides the compressor is the shop exhaust fan. Since I want the fan switch to be on the first floor, that wiring will have to come about a third back to the shop panel, so I'm going to wire the fan direct from the shop panel.
- I'll use 6 ga cable for what I suspect will be needed for a 50 amp circuit - please confirm that 6 ga and a 50 amp breaker go together. I'll also be adding a circuit switch on the ground floor so I can turn off the compressor when I'm not in the shop.
- I found that HD has 1000 ft reels of 12-2 NM but not Lowe's, oh well. I'll be buying a reel and then make a reel holder so I can fish/roll out all the cable by myself. All cable will have to reeled out behind my 6x6 shop columns that has about a 2"x2" space behind it.
- Not counting the compressor run for 230 VAC, I've identified at least 5 curcuits that need to be added: 2 20 amp outlet circuits, 1 bench lighting, 1 20 amp for my old compressor, and then one for the shop exhaust fan. That will put a pretty good dent in that 1000' by the time I'm done. It will also use up 5 of the 18 free CB box open circuits (the new compressor will take 2 more).

Someone asked about the shop electrical supply:

Power to the house and shop is via a transformer on a pole located in the front yard. Two lines come off this transformer, one for the house (200 amp CB box, IRC) and one to the shop, also a 200 amp CB box. Except at the transformer, the house and the shop are not connected. The power meter is on the transformer pole and not the house.

One of things I will do when I get moved into the place is call the local utility and ask for a lineman to come out and check my house and shop voltage. While he's there, I'll ask that he increase my voltage if it's low (what's a low voltage???) and if it's possible (some can be adjusted, some can't).

I'll also see what the cost will be to move some of the electrical lines in my (big) front yard to either underground or move the poles and lines to a less visible location to improve the view from our house.

Thanks,
 
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2ManyProjects

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Ok, a little update:

- I've decided to not use a subpanel the compressor that will be located in the back corner of the mezzanine (and the farthest distance from the CB box). The only other thing that needs to be powered up on the mezzanine besides the compressor is the shop exhaust fan. Since I want the fan switch to be on the first floor, that wiring will have to come about a third back to the shop panel, so I'm going to wire the fan direct from the shop panel.
- I'll use 6 ga cable for what I suspect will be needed for a 50 amp circuit - please confirm that 6 ga and a 50 amp breaker go together.

From a raw "ampacity" standpoint, yes; a 50A breaker is adequate to protect AWG 6. However, that is not the only consideration. First, large-ish motor loads have their own special requirements, based on the rated horsepower of the motor (as found on its ID plate); others can fill in the details (it's not something I deal with regularly). Secondly, the run length from the panel to the compressor will come into play. I can only take a W-A-G at that, based on your stated shop dimensions; but it looks like that MIGHT turn out to be a bit marginal, depending in part on exactly how you route that cable. In any event, the LAST thing you want is significant voltage drop in the line feeding your compressor.

I'll also be adding a circuit switch on the ground floor so I can turn off the compressor when I'm not in the shop.

In and of itself, that's a probably good idea. But note that if this is implemented as a "T" leg off the main cable run, you'll need to include that in your run-length calculation. I presume you already know that this needs to be a dual-pole switch, which disconnects BOTH hot legs of the feed to the compressor, and must be rated for the full motor load. I have yet to see any standard toggle-type wall switches which meet those requirements; but then, I've not looked very hard.

Alternately, given that the compressor has a dedicated circuit, you could just use the breaker as the On/Off switch (maybe not ideal from a long-term "wear 'n' tear" point of view; but simple and effective).

- I found that HD has 1000 ft reels of 12-2 NM but not Lowe's, oh well. I'll be buying a reel and then make a reel holder so I can fish/roll out all the cable by myself. All cable will have to reeled out behind my 6x6 shop columns that has about a 2"x2" space behind it.

Be aware that there are near-certainly some code requirements for how those cables get secured along their run. Again, others can fill in the details; but I tend to doubt it can just lay loose in a void. I'd also suggest that you keep (future) insulation in mind when laying out the wiring.

- Not counting the compressor run for 230 VAC, I've identified at least 5 curcuits that need to be added: 2 20 amp outlet circuits, 1 bench lighting, 1 20 amp for my old compressor, and then one for the shop exhaust fan. That will put a pretty good dent in that 1000' by the time I'm done. It will also use up 5 of the 18 free CB box open circuits (the new compressor will take 2 more).

Still, it sounds like you're OK on that front.

I'll also see what the cost will be to move some of the electrical lines in my (big) front yard to either underground or move the poles and lines to a less visible location to improve the view from our house.

Be prepared for a major case of "Sticker Shock". :shocking:

 
OP
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FTG-05

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OK, first off: 2Many, get the fork outta-my-head!!!! Are you my long lost brother or something??????????????? I mean WTF? How can you know what I'm concerned about that keeps me up at night much less before I post about it here??????

Ok, enough whining, I get it, back to the discussion at hand.

Yea, 6 ga/50 amp circuit for a (maybe) 7.5 HP compressor motor (max - I haven't decided). The math is simple: 36'x76' shop, plus any drops for compressor switches/cutoffs/whatever you call them (yes, I'm into my second dose of Skeeter Pee, sue me!!!). I don't plan to cut the corner and go via the rafters, so to speak, so we're talking 76' to one end of the shop, then another 36' to the far corner. I have to clear one 10' or 12' door plus the compressor will be on the 2nd floor mezzanine, so we're talking 112' without the detours.

6 ga = 50 amp breaker or 60 amp breaker? The Eaton site says I need a 50 amp breaker for their 7.5 hp single phase compressor. But I graduated from the Tim Taylor School of "Bigger is Always Better" so if it works, let me know. For the record: NEC rules, but I haven't cracked the NEC since I left Boeing.

Securing the cable: There are 6x6 vertical columns every 7' along my shop, plus 2x6 horizontally about every 24"; the cable I see run currently in the shop is stapled about every 2 feet or so, whether it's the columns or the horizontal 2x6s. I plan to do the same. I need to get pics of the current wiring in the shop, but I forgot the camera today; maybe tomorrow.
 

2ManyProjects

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Messages
757
OK, first off: 2Many, get the fork outta-my-head!!!! Are you my long lost brother or something??????????????? I mean WTF? How can you know what I'm concerned about that keeps me up at night much less before I post about it here??????

Spooky, eh? :scared:

Ok, enough whining, I get it, back to the discussion at hand.

Yea, 6 ga/50 amp circuit for a (maybe) 7.5 HP compressor motor (max - I haven't decided). The math is simple: 36'x76' shop, plus any drops for compressor switches/cutoffs/whatever you call them (yes, I'm into my second dose of Skeeter Pee, sue me!!!).

"Skeeter Pee"? I had to look that one up (blame it on my sheltered upbringing in the Northeast, I guess). Sounds like it could be fun -- or deadly. :wtf:

I don't plan to cut the corner and go via the rafters, so to speak, so we're talking 76' to one end of the shop, then another 36' to the far corner. I have to clear one 10' or 12' door plus the compressor will be on the 2nd floor mezzanine, so we're talking 112' without the detours.

But those "detours" ARE significant, and must be figured in when calculating the run length. Also, every set of switch contacts, splices, or mechanically fastened terminals along the way will also add a small (but difficult to quantify) amount of series resistance to the circuit.

Assuming you go ten feet up (from the panel) to get to wherever the horizontal run is going to be, then another ten feet down to the junction box at the compressor, plus perhaps 15 feet (each way) down & back up for the switch/disconnect (depending on where you decide a convenient location for that would be), that all adds up to another 50 feet for the run. Plus we really ought to allow another few feet at each end to actually make the connections and account for the power cord to the compressor itself... All told, it's looking like something around 165-170 feet, total. If that guesstimate is even close to accurate, AWG 6 would be marginal at best. I think you really need to measure it all out as carefully and precisely as possible, making every attempt to predict the EXACT path of the wire, BEFORE you commit to a given size wire.

6 ga = 50 amp breaker or 60 amp breaker? The Eaton site says I need a 50 amp breaker for their 7.5 hp single phase compressor. But I graduated from the Tim Taylor School of "Bigger is Always Better" so if it works, let me know.

The 50A breaker is fine, regardless of what wire you use (as long as it is at least AWG 6, of course). If you upsize the wire (to, say, AWG 4), you could in theory also upsize the breaker; but there's no good reason to do so in this case. This is because the reason you might go to AWG 4 is NOT to carry more current; that value will be fixed by the compressor, and per your Eaton quote above, we already know that 50A is adequate. But rather, it is to reduce the series resistance of the wire, so that you still get full voltage (or as close to it as possible) at the load.

For the record: NEC rules, but I haven't cracked the NEC since I left Boeing.

Understood. But also understand that "meeting code" is just the "bare minimum necessity" to stay legal. It does NOT define the ideal installation; and there can often be very good reasons to go above and beyond code.

Securing the cable: There are 6x6 vertical columns every 7' along my shop, plus 2x6 horizontally about every 24"; the cable I see run currently in the shop is stapled about every 2 feet or so, whether it's the columns or the horizontal 2x6s. I plan to do the same.

I strongly suspect that will be just fine. The only thing I would caution you on is to keep the wiring (and the staples) out of the way of any possible future upgrades, such as the aforementioned insulation, or maybe even drywall (or other panelling) at some point down the line.

I need to get pics of the current wiring in the shop, but I forgot the camera today; maybe tomorrow.

Sounds good. Carry on. ;)

 
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