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help me better understand my electical panel for generator

ro22tol

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Nov 17, 2013
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8
Location
North Dakota
This past fall I moved into a house that is wired for a generator (generator not included). I would like to better understand what I need to do when the power goes out and I want to hook up an external generator. Which breakers to turn off and on. In addition, what size generator am I going to need. This is all new to me and I have a budget of about $750 to $1000 for a generator and cord. It looks like the generator panel powers the kitchen, living room, freezer in garage, furnace and garage lights.







 
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theoldwizard1

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Feb 22, 2011
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SE MI
Not enough information to be 100% certain. I can guess, but I would rather not.

Did you have the house and wiring inspected before you bought ? If my guess is correct, I'm not certain that it is even legally wired ! Those breakers covered the screwed down lock in/out clamps make me nervous !

I would start by going to my city/county building inspectors office and ask to see the records of any non-original electrical work. If it is not there, then it was never inspected. If it was inspected, contact the company that did the work and pay them to come out and document the process of switch over to generator power.

You have enough money set aside for buying a generator. The maximum power for that panel is 7,500 watts, so there is no reason to exceed that.

It looks like that is in an attached garage. Make sure you have a long enough cord to operate the generator outside of the garage. NEVER OPERATE A GENERATOR INSIDE OF AN ATTACHED GARAGE. Better yet, have the plug moved to outside of garage.
 

Stuart in MN

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Sep 8, 2005
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Minneapolis
The generator plug supplies power only to the small panel, so only those circuits will be powered. The idea is to only power essential circuits. The small panel is either fed from the big main panel or from the generator, through those two breakers at the top. Those two breakers are interlocked so you have to turn off the one marked main first, plug in the generator and then turn on the one marked generator. The interlocked breakers are rated at 30 amps, 240 volts; I can't tell for sure from the photo but the generator plug is most likely also rated for 30 amps, 240 volts so you'll need a generator that has a 30 amp, 240 volt output.
 

theoldwizard1

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SE MI
Those two breakers are interlocked so you have to turn off the one marked main first, plug in the generator and then turn on the one marked generator.
I've never seen an interlock like that !

Now that I look closer I can see the anodized bar linking the generator/main feed.
 

Charles (in GA)

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50 mi south of Atlanta
I'd get the generator input box relocated outside. Why run the cord outside, Just put the inlet out there to start with.

Not sure what breakers 5, 7, and 8 in the gen panel supply, cannot read it, but It looks like you won't have much powered up.
 

madosta

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Sep 4, 2012
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807
Location
Michigan
That's neat.

You'll see that the generator panel has an interlock and will only allow power from one of the breakers - either the generator or the main panel - the breaker marked Gen. Panel.

Make sure you get a long enough 10-4 or 8-4 cord or bigger and probably L14-30 ends.

Your generator ground and neutral are bonded usually so you'll want to figure out what to do with that.
 

2ManyProjects

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Jul 18, 2013
Messages
757
This past fall I moved into a house that is wired for a generator (generator not included). I would like to better understand what I need to do when the power goes out and I want to hook up an external generator. Which breakers to turn off and on.

You're already gotten some reasonable advice on this; but there are a few important points which have yet to be addressed...

In addition, what size generator am I going to need. This is all new to me and I have a budget of about $750 to $1000 for a generator and cord.

That budget is near-certainly inadequate. At that price point, you'll be limited to "contractor special" open-frame portable generators rated for MAYBE 5kW, tops. In addition to the rather skimpy output capability, such generators are, as a class, generally undesirable for this application, for several reasons.

Much of this has already been discussed here recently; so rather than repeat all the gory details again, I refer you to:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3557426&postcount=13
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3602131&postcount=12
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3615476&postcount=5
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3617806&postcount=10
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3618068&postcount=12
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3619473&postcount=14

Plus, a decent 30A "shore power" cord to connect it can easily cost upwards of another $100, depending on the length you need:

http://www.defender.com/marinco-shore-power-cords.jsp


It looks like the generator panel powers the kitchen, living room, freezer in garage, furnace and garage lights.

I can't really tell for sure, due in large part to the illegible hand-written (in pencil?) labels in those breaker panels. (SIDE NOTE: WHY don't people take the ten minutes needed to make up PROPER typewritten or Dymo/P-Touch printed labels for this stuff; or better yet, just maintain a simple one-page word-processed "cheat sheet" posted on or next to each breaker box?!?)

That said, the ONLY loads which can be powered from the generator are those for which the branch breakers live in that small sub-panel. It would behoove you to carefully identify ALL of those loads NOW, and make up that "cheat sheet" I mentioned above, so that you will at least know what you've got to work with when the time comes. And NOW is the time to make any changes you feel are essential.

As for "Which breakers to turn off and on..." There's really only one thing to do: Note the two breakers at the top of the sub-panel. Between them, these determine from which source that sub-panel gets its power, either the feeder from the main panel (specifically, the dual-pole breaker in that main panel labelled "GEN PANEL"), OR the incoming feed from the generator. The little brass-colored "brackets" covering the handles on these breakers appear to be a crude form of interlock, which is intended to keep you from being able to have both breakers live at the same time (which would be a potentially lethal prescription for disaster).

So, assuming you're using a portable generator such as you originally mentioned, the "Ooops, the power went out" tapdance would go something like this:

1. - Haul the generator out of storage and place it in a SAFE location, well away from the building itself and NOT in any even semi-enclosed space (such as a garage, carport, porch, etc.).

2. - Either fill the (should be bone dry for storage) fuel tank with fresh gasoline, or connect a propane cylinder to the genset and open the valve, depending on how your particular genset is set up.

3. - Get out your shore power cord, and use it to connect the generator to the dedicated power inlet plug located adjacent to the sub-panel. (As mentioned by "theoldwizard1", that is NOT an ideal location; but it's what you've got, for now.)

4. - Start the generator.

5. - Cuss a lot when the generator does NOT want to start. After all, it's been sitting in storage for maybe two or three years, more-or-less forgotten until you suddenly "need" it. (And Ghod help you if you left old gasoline in the carb when you last put it away.)

6. - Try again, maybe with a small shot of ether-based "starting fluid" down the carb throat.

7. - Lather, rinse, repeat until the generator finally starts.

8. - After the generator has been running long enough that you are confident it will KEEP running for awhile, go to your breaker panels and prepare to switch the "emergency" loads over to generator power.

9. - IN THEORY, you should be able to effect that switch-over by simply throwing BOTH of those interlocked breakers at the same time. However, even assuming this works "correctly", it can potentially put a LOT of load on the generator, all at once, which can cause it to bog, stumble, stall, etc. (and besides, the unstable output waveform produced when this happens is NOT good for whatever loads you're running off the genny). So it would be better to FIRST throw ALL of the branch breakers in that sub-panel to their "Off" positions, then throw the transfer/main breakers to the "Generator Power" position, then individually throw each of the branch breakers back on, giving the generator at least a few seconds to adjust/recover between each one.

10. - With any amount of luck, your "emergency" loads are now running off the generator. You can now look forward to the "Shut Down / Re-Fuel / Re-Start" tapdance, every few hours for the duration of the outage.


Not enough information to be 100% certain. I can guess, but I would rather not.

Did you have the house and wiring inspected before you bought ? If my guess is correct, I'm not certain that it is even legally wired ! Those breakers covered the screwed down lock in/out clamps make me nervous !

It looks a little odd to me, too; but I think it really is an interlock. I sure hope so, anyway.

You have enough money set aside for buying a generator.

I disagree, for the reasons mentioned above and in those prior posts I cited.

The maximum power for that panel is 7,500 watts, so there is no reason to exceed that.

I presume that you're getting that figure based on the 30A main breaker(s)? Yes, the simple arithmetic of that would imply about 7.2kW maximum total load; but do we really know that is the limit of the PANEL, per se? If those breakers (and the feeder cable from the main panel, if need be) were upgraded, could the sheet metal box itself not support more load? I saw no markings to indicate a real "rating" in the pix posted.

 

theoldwizard1

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Feb 22, 2011
Messages
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Location
SE MI
At that price point, you'll be limited to "contractor special" open-frame portable generators rated for MAYBE 5kW, tops. In addition to the rather skimpy output capability, such generators are, as a class, generally undesirable for this application, for several reasons.
.
.
,
WOW !

All I can say is WOW !!

"Open frame portable generators" may not be the optimal solution, but thousands of people use them with good results.

These prices are "average". A bit of shopping and I'm certain you can find them for less.

Generac 5939 GP5500 5,500 Watt Portable Gas Powered Generator -$689

Generac 5943 GP7500E 7,500 Watt Portable Gas Powered Generator with Electric Start - $999

The biggest negative for portable generators is fuel. Storing it, re-filling and purchasing more during an emergency. Bigger generator consume more fuel.
 
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2ManyProjects

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Messages
757
At that price point, you'll be limited to "contractor special" open-frame portable generators rated for MAYBE 5kW, tops. In addition to the rather skimpy output capability, such generators are, as a class, generally undesirable for this application, for several reasons.

WOW !

All I can say is WOW !!

"Open frame portable generators" may not be the optimal solution, but thousands of people use them with good results.

I don't think we're in disagreement -- at least not violently so.

Yes, people commonly do use open-frame portable generators for this sort of thing. That still doesn't make them "desirable". The value trade-off will vary somewhat from person to person, depending at least in part on whether or not they ALSO have a real need for a portable generator for other uses. In which case, if you already have the generator, it makes some sense to try to get more use out of it. But even that is ONLY an "in a pinch, because it is an emergency, so use whatever you've got handy" proposition, and inherently carries with it a boatload of "issues".

OTOH, if the generator is being purchased solely or primarily for use as emergency backup power for a residence, then I stand by my position that portable generators are FAR from ideal, and cheap open-frame portable generators are the worst possible choice.

The biggest negative for portable generators is fuel. Storing it, re-filling and purchasing more during an emergency.

Exactly. And this "negative" IS big enough to constitute "the tail that wags the dog" in at least some sense. In any extended outage, let alone a Sandy-scale "event", fuel will be THE overwhelming issue. And the ONLY reliable solutions to that are decidedly NON-portable by nature. At which point, a portable generator compares even more poorly.

Bigger generator consume more fuel.

True. But even a relatively small one consumes enough that some form of permanent on-site fuel supply is a MUST, if any real "peace of mind" is to be had. At which point, the marginal cost/hassle/etc. of sizing things a bit more generously pales by comparison to the benefits that can provide.

 

wyliesdiesels

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Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
19,983
Location
Modesto, CA
You're already gotten some reasonable advice on this; but there are a few important points which have yet to be addressed...



That budget is near-certainly inadequate. At that price point, you'll be limited to "contractor special" open-frame portable generators rated for MAYBE 5kW, tops. In addition to the rather skimpy output capability, such generators are, as a class, generally undesirable for this application, for several reasons.

Much of this has already been discussed here recently; so rather than repeat all the gory details again, I refer you to:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3557426&postcount=13
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3602131&postcount=12
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3615476&postcount=5
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3617806&postcount=10
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3618068&postcount=12
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3619473&postcount=14

Plus, a decent 30A "shore power" cord to connect it can easily cost upwards of another $100, depending on the length you need:

http://www.defender.com/marinco-shore-power-cords.jsp




I can't really tell for sure, due in large part to the illegible hand-written (in pencil?) labels in those breaker panels. (SIDE NOTE: WHY don't people take the ten minutes needed to make up PROPER typewritten or Dymo/P-Touch printed labels for this stuff; or better yet, just maintain a simple one-page word-processed "cheat sheet" posted on or next to each breaker box?!?)

That said, the ONLY loads which can be powered from the generator are those for which the branch breakers live in that small sub-panel. It would behoove you to carefully identify ALL of those loads NOW, and make up that "cheat sheet" I mentioned above, so that you will at least know what you've got to work with when the time comes. And NOW is the time to make any changes you feel are essential.

As for "Which breakers to turn off and on..." There's really only one thing to do: Note the two breakers at the top of the sub-panel. Between them, these determine from which source that sub-panel gets its power, either the feeder from the main panel (specifically, the dual-pole breaker in that main panel labelled "GEN PANEL"), OR the incoming feed from the generator. The little brass-colored "brackets" covering the handles on these breakers appear to be a crude form of interlock, which is intended to keep you from being able to have both breakers live at the same time (which would be a potentially lethal prescription for disaster).

So, assuming you're using a portable generator such as you originally mentioned, the "Ooops, the power went out" tapdance would go something like this:

1. - Haul the generator out of storage and place it in a SAFE location, well away from the building itself and NOT in any even semi-enclosed space (such as a garage, carport, porch, etc.).

2. - Either fill the (should be bone dry for storage) fuel tank with fresh gasoline, or connect a propane cylinder to the genset and open the valve, depending on how your particular genset is set up.

3. - Get out your shore power cord, and use it to connect the generator to the dedicated power inlet plug located adjacent to the sub-panel. (As mentioned by "theoldwizard1", that is NOT an ideal location; but it's what you've got, for now.)

4. - Start the generator.

5. - Cuss a lot when the generator does NOT want to start. After all, it's been sitting in storage for maybe two or three years, more-or-less forgotten until you suddenly "need" it. (And Ghod help you if you left old gasoline in the carb when you last put it away.)

6. - Try again, maybe with a small shot of ether-based "starting fluid" down the carb throat.

7. - Lather, rinse, repeat until the generator finally starts.

8. - After the generator has been running long enough that you are confident it will KEEP running for awhile, go to your breaker panels and prepare to switch the "emergency" loads over to generator power.

9. - IN THEORY, you should be able to effect that switch-over by simply throwing BOTH of those interlocked breakers at the same time. However, even assuming this works "correctly", it can potentially put a LOT of load on the generator, all at once, which can cause it to bog, stumble, stall, etc. (and besides, the unstable output waveform produced when this happens is NOT good for whatever loads you're running off the genny). So it would be better to FIRST throw ALL of the branch breakers in that sub-panel to their "Off" positions, then throw the transfer/main breakers to the "Generator Power" position, then individually throw each of the branch breakers back on, giving the generator at least a few seconds to adjust/recover between each one.

10. - With any amount of luck, your "emergency" loads are now running off the generator. You can now look forward to the "Shut Down / Re-Fuel / Re-Start" tapdance, every few hours for the duration of the outage.




It looks a little odd to me, too; but I think it really is an interlock. I sure hope so, anyway.



I disagree, for the reasons mentioned above and in those prior posts I cited.



I presume that you're getting that figure based on the 30A main breaker(s)? Yes, the simple arithmetic of that would imply about 7.2kW maximum total load; but do we really know that is the limit of the PANEL, per se? If those breakers (and the feeder cable from the main panel, if need be) were upgraded, could the sheet metal box itself not support more load? I saw no markings to indicate a real "rating" in the pix posted.


Good detailed write up! It must have taken awhile for u to research and write that. More time than i cared to give up or even have for that matter!
 

Rookie2

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Feb 27, 2013
Messages
1,925
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Western Pa.
your good to go ! go on craigslist and pick up the highest wattage generator you can afford (I love Honda's they start with 1 pull) find a local electrician or vo-tech school instructor and have a cable made up.
 

madosta

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Sep 4, 2012
Messages
807
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Michigan
He should ideally get a 100HP Diesel tractor with a 50KW PTO generator like me because that's more than any little contractor generator has on it!!! WIMPY LITTLE GIRLY GENERATORS!!!
 

Backlight

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Dec 31, 2012
Messages
158
Location
Ontario Canada
He should ideally get a 100HP Diesel tractor with a 50KW PTO generator like me because that's more than any little contractor generator has on it!!! WIMPY LITTLE GIRLY GENERATORS!!!

lol - I'm sure that makes sense for a house in the city and/or suburbs!
 

JerryC

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Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
244
Location
Memphis TN
Not sure what breakers 5, 7, and 8 in the gen panel supply, cannot read it, but It looks like you won't have much powered up.

Looks like Living room (5) and Bath and Laundry room lights (7) and Furnace (8).

Not that big of a load there, Furnace and a fridge and freezer. Plus lights and whatnot.

Does putting the heaviest loads (fridge, freezer and furnace) on the same side of the panel matter ?
 

LS6 Tommy

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Northern NJ
It's not about being on the same side of the panel, but about which "leg" is feeding how much of the load. He needs to balance the load. Calculate the rough consumption of all appliances in use, then split them as close to half as possible. 1/2 on each side of the panel. Try to keep in mind that multiple small loads may start/run more frequently than the bigger loads when dividing up them up. Better genny panels have watt meters so you can monitor the loads in use.

He currently has #6 "freezer/ref" & #10 "freezer" on the same "leg" of the feed. If he changes anything, I would recommend swapping the breakers & their corresponding wires from locations #10 "freezer" & #12 "garage lights". It's really a close call, putting the freezer onto the same leg as the furnace may be relatively close to the same load as having it on the same leg as the freezer/fridge. It all depends on what type of furnace he has & what else is plugged into the receptacles...

Tommy
 
Last edited:

wyliesdiesels

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Messages
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Location
Modesto, CA
Looks like Living room (5) and Bath and Laundry room lights (7) and Furnace (8).

Not that big of a load there, Furnace and a fridge and freezer. Plus lights and whatnot.

Does putting the heaviest loads (fridge, freezer and furnace) on the same side of the panel matter ?


U need to look and see how the bus bars and stabs are arranged. Most panels have both bus bars on both sides of the panel.
 
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