Hairline cracks in new concrete driveway

MrBreeze · Jul 10, 2015

As part of a new home construction, a 4" slab was poured less than 2 weeks ago. Then the bright minds decided to remove the 30 yard roll off dumpster filled with waste rock, fill, concrete, brick...no doubt 20,000 pounds by itself...across the newly poured driveway and sidewalk and creating hairline cracks (that of course go through the entire slab)

Rather than replacing those sections, the builder is skirting by saying that it is "within tolerances" and "the cracks are so small, any thin we attempt to do will make the appearance worse" (as if they were going to fill the cracks)

With this part of Arkansas being in a frost zone, I'm pushing to have a 2 year warranty so that the slabs will have multiple freeze/thaw cycles.

I feel I should not have to accept a cracked driveway and sidewalk and they should re-pour. Since they aren't budging, I'm asking for a warranty. Am I being unreasonable?

Lx460 · Jul 10, 2015

Not smart to drive across any concrete without having a damage waiver in your hand signed (if you're the truck driver). If the home builder won't remedy the situation I'd take it up with the waste company.

That being said, all concrete cracks. It's just how it goes. It's just a matter of controlling how it does so. Your pics actually don't look that bad to me honestly.

wizness · Jul 10, 2015

Our house was built last year and unfortunately has hairline cracks in the driveway, sidewalks, and one in the garage. Most were there before we even moved in. Builders typically won't do anything unless it's an 1/8 or 1/4 inch crack, can't remember. It definitely ***** but it is what it is.

F124C · Jul 10, 2015

My (limited) experience of concrete is that cracks only get worse with time.
(don't upset me by asking how I know this!).

A 2 year warranty is imo not a satisfactory solution to the damage caused by the builder/contractor.Will the builder dig up and repour the concrete in 2 years time if you're still not happy? Will he even come back? Will he still be in business? Will he blame e.g. weather conditions such as freeze/thaw cycles for the cracks? Better to avoid the inevitable arguments and disruption while the work is being carried out,(I assume you don't want to be without use of your drive for a period of time) and rectify the problem now.

The slab needs to be removed and repoured so that you're happy not the builder.

Just my 2 cents.

Al.

Playwme · Jul 11, 2015

I'm usually accused of being a little too level headed and accepting in these sorts of situations but considering the circumstances I don't think even I would put up with that. Yes, concrete does crack, but not like that. It's obvious that there's been weight damage there. Is it all reinforced?

Dan in Pasadena · Jul 11, 2015

Concrete is considered cured at 28 days. It may well reach design strength way before that though. But even if it had reached full strength I wouldn't EVER want a roll off running over a narrow walk like that!

southalabama · Jul 11, 2015

I'm a lawyer and I fight for a living.

In real life I try to stay low key about things. It happens and roll with flow.

But that. No way I'd accept that. The cracks cross the joint line. It's not gonna heal itself. As stated above. It will just get worse. I'd have that section cut and removed.

RivennHewn · Jul 11, 2015

You say new home, but not if you hired the contractor or are buying it.

Was the sale a done deal before this happened, or will you close on it later?

If they were negligent in protecting your property, I'd go after their bond.

If it's not your house yet, I'd stipulate them fixing it prior to signing.

ADSR · Jul 11, 2015

That's crazy. The bin company should have known better. I would make them replace the section.

macdabs · Jul 11, 2015

I do a lot of concrete slab work for equipment cabinets in the middle of the woods and they would not accept a crack like that. The corner that cracked in the one pic will end up ******* and getting worse with the freeze cycle and may even create a trip hazard .

Replace it now or it will bug the **** out of you forever.
Mac

zcar751 · Jul 11, 2015

You should insist the contractor cut out the sections and replace. They should have had the waste container removed before poring the concrete. Hopefully you have some leverage still with the contractor. I work for a waste hauler and use to handle claims and they are not liable for the path to and from the container otherwise that can would still be sitting in your yard.

Chevy-SS · Jul 11, 2015

Did they drive across the sidewalk too????? WTF

I recently built big garage addition. The garage slab was saw cut in a few places the day after the pour, anticipating (and guiding) cracks. The basement slab was not cut, and it cracked within a month.

-

Big Bad Dad · Jul 11, 2015

southalabama said:
I'm a lawyer and I fight for a living.

In real life I try to stay low key about things. It happens and roll with flow.

But that. No way I'd accept that. The cracks cross the joint line. It's not gonna heal itself. As stated above. It will just get worse. I'd have that section cut and removed.

Agreed

brownbagg · Jul 11, 2015

all concrete doesnt crack, cracking is the result of poor workmanship. but those crack in the picture is, they broke you slab, will they get bigger, yes.

MrBreeze · Jul 11, 2015

Thanks for the replies and input.

To answer some of your questions, my wife and I are the home buyers who are buying from a builder. The house was 80% completed (was to be a builder spec house) when we moved to AR from AZ and found the house listed for sale.

In my opinion, the builder has had their "b-team" as project manager and haven't been on top of things as I would have expected (I've built 2 homes in Minnesota, so part of this is adjusting my expectations of what the quality standards are here in Arkansas)

The roll-off was placed prior to the driveway/sidewalk being poured. I suspect there wasn't any guidance given the hauler as to location (there are 2 empty lots next to the house and accessible from another direction) nor when the roll-off was picked up.

My guess (and zcar751 confirmed) was while the hauler has insurance, the liability for any damage is waived when the builder contracts with the hauler.

The builder has no incentive to spend the money to remove and re-pour the damaged sections. Is it right? No. Is it the quality I expect? No. Will there be potential problems in the future? Yes. But at this point we have no leverage. We aren't going to walk away and leave thousands of dollars in earnest money because of a cracked driveway.

I appreciate the comments - I was starting to think that my expectations were too high and while a 2 year warranty (assuming the builder agrees to it) is worth as much as the paper it's written on (since I'm sure there will be a loophole of "less than 1/4" separation") at least its documented. Small consolation I know.

firworks · Jul 11, 2015

MrBreeze said:
Thanks for the replies and input.

To answer some of your questions, my wife and I are the home buyers who are buying from a builder. The house was 80% completed (was to be a builder spec house) when we moved to AR from AZ and found the house listed for sale.

In my opinion, the builder has had their "b-team" as project manager and haven't been on top of things as I would have expected (I've built 2 homes in Minnesota, so part of this is adjusting my expectations of what the quality standards are here in Arkansas)

The roll-off was placed prior to the driveway/sidewalk being poured. I suspect there wasn't any guidance given the hauler as to location (there are 2 empty lots next to the house and accessible from another direction) nor when the roll-off was picked up.

My guess (and zcar751 confirmed) was while the hauler has insurance, the liability for any damage is waived when the builder contracts with the hauler.

The builder has no incentive to spend the money to remove and re-pour the damaged sections. Is it right? No. Is it the quality I expect? No. Will there be potential problems in the future? Yes. But at this point we have no leverage. We aren't going to walk away and leave thousands of dollars in earnest money because of a cracked driveway.

I appreciate the comments - I was starting to think that my expectations were too high and while a 2 year warranty (assuming the builder agrees to it) is worth as much as the paper it's written on (since I'm sure there will be a loophole of "less than 1/4" separation") at least its documented. Small consolation I know.

You wouldn't lose your earnest money if the builder damages the house and refuses to repair it. I'm sure you could get it back in this case. What if part of the house collapsed and they just said well we aren't going to rebuild it, tough luck.

Gotcha640 · Jul 11, 2015

I'm curious too if you can still walk away. My best friend just finished a huge house on a 15 acre lot that's been in the family for years. They had the slab done about a year before the rest of the construction started, so they could be sure the dirt work and foundation wouldn't end up cracking the slab.

If you're basically doing a spec home, or working with a contractor, you might hint that it's no problem for you to shut the job down and put it off for another year,or walk away entirely.

sr71 · Jul 11, 2015

Unless the builder is a complete nube he knows exactly what the concrete will look like in two years. He tested you with his story - rather than take the high road (customer satisfaction) he's only after margins. Unfortunately this means he'll do it again if you find other issues around the home. Best to take a stand on this one.

Gotcha640 · Jul 11, 2015

Based on your reply, it sounds like you might be willing to live with it for a few years, let it settle, and get it repaired when it starts to heave. You're more interested in getting in the house than saving a few (grand) down the line. Which is fine.

MrBreeze · Jul 11, 2015

We've attempted the "walk away" earlier in the build regarding a 1/4" difference in the tile flooring and the wood flooring (their flooring choices and rather than laying and additional 1/4" plywood over the subfloor, they were going to use "transition strips") but that's another thread and story. Bottom line, we investigated with our lender and realtor and we would lose close to $10k if we chose to walk. The builder's attitude was basically, that this was a spec home and if we didn't buy it, someone else would.

I don't anticipate this is going to be a long-term home (or state we will be living in) so I'm less worried about 5, 10, 20 years down the road as we may be gone in 2-3 yrs.

So I'm accepting it is what it is. That is unless southalabama want's to do some pro bono legal work.... lol

404 · Jul 11, 2015

Realtor works for the builder. Loan company just wants your money. Neither is on your side. Consult with a lawyer.

firworks · Jul 11, 2015

MrBreeze said:
We've attempted the "walk away" earlier in the build regarding a 1/4" difference in the tile flooring and the wood flooring (their flooring choices and rather than laying and additional 1/4" plywood over the subfloor, they were going to use "transition strips") but that's another thread and story. Bottom line, we investigated with our lender and realtor and we would lose close to $10k if we chose to walk. The builder's attitude was basically, that this was a spec home and if we didn't buy it, someone else would.

I don't anticipate this is going to be a long-term home (or state we will be living in) so I'm less worried about 5, 10, 20 years down the road as we may be gone in 2-3 yrs.

So I'm accepting it is what it is. That is unless southalabama want's to do some pro bono legal work.... lol

So that tile issue actually would make some sense if the plan they submitted was such that they would lay it with the transition strips. I'm positive they didn't spec out cracked concrete.

boobag · Jul 11, 2015

that is very poor planning to remove the dumpster after new concrete is set. makes you wonder what other poor planning choices were made.

boobag · Jul 11, 2015

also, if that were a spec house, you think the builder would sell it like that?

Rickstir · Jul 11, 2015

In Missouri all concrete is guaranteed for fire and theft.

F124C · Jul 11, 2015

I wonder if the damaged concrete was 'accidently' damaged further by person/persons unknown (say, overnight/ at weekend), would the builder then be agreeable to digging up and repouring the drive and sidewalk?

Al.

James-W · Jul 11, 2015

MrBreeze said:
I don't anticipate this is going to be a long-term home (or state we will be living in) so I'm less worried about 5, 10, 20 years down the road as we may be gone in 2-3 yrs.

I get what you are saying, but I am not sure you are considering what happens if and when you want to sell the place. What if potential buyers want the cracks fixed before they will buy the place? At that point in time it will be up to you to fix the cracks and I wonder how much money it will cost you then. It MAY cost a lot more than the $10K it would cost you today. I am not trying to persuade you one way or the other, it's just a thought that came to mind.

engineer031 · Jul 12, 2015

When is your closing date on the house ? I didnt see if you are living it it or not but if you are not you should do a final walk through before the deal closes and if it not to your satisfaction I would tell your lawyer and see if you can withhold something or insist the builder fix it properly

southalabama · Jul 12, 2015

I don't practice law in Arkansas but it might be worth it to talk to someone who does. If you've got a good relationship with a family lawyer most of the time in small towns something like this you not gonna pay much if anything. Bigger towns and you pull a name out of a phone book you gonna pay hourly. If that's the situation might just be best to save the money for future concrete work cause your gonna need it.

If you plan on flipping the house in a few years you probably gonna have to fix it before you do. That won't take long to get really bad.

pstnbly · Jul 12, 2015

MrBreeze said:
Thanks for the replies and input.

To answer some of your questions, my wife and I are the home buyers who are buying from a builder. The house was 80% completed (was to be a builder spec house) when we moved to AR from AZ and found the house listed for sale.

In my opinion, the builder has had their "b-team" as project manager and haven't been on top of things as I would have expected (I've built 2 homes in Minnesota, so part of this is adjusting my expectations of what the quality standards are here in Arkansas)

The roll-off was placed prior to the driveway/sidewalk being poured. I suspect there wasn't any guidance given the hauler as to location (there are 2 empty lots next to the house and accessible from another direction) nor when the roll-off was picked up.

My guess (and zcar751 confirmed) was while the hauler has insurance, the liability for any damage is waived when the builder contracts with the hauler.

The builder has no incentive to spend the money to remove and re-pour the damaged sections. Is it right? No. Is it the quality I expect? No. Will there be potential problems in the future? Yes. But at this point we have no leverage. We aren't going to walk away and leave thousands of dollars in earnest money because of a cracked driveway.

I appreciate the comments - I was starting to think that my expectations were too high and while a 2 year warranty (assuming the builder agrees to it) is worth as much as the paper it's written on (since I'm sure there will be a loophole of "less than 1/4" separation") at least its documented. Small consolation I know.

Holdback at the closing, the builder is not going to walk away from a bird in the hand. Speak with your closing attorney and have him draft the hold back agreement. It shouldn't be more than $1000.00 to remove and replace that concrete and if he reneges on the work you are covered to have someone else repair it.

srmofo · Jul 12, 2015

No way the builder will lose a sale over a few hundred. Yeah they will sell it, but how long will it sit empty? And even then how much?

I'm sure a lawyer could straighten the builder up, but at that cost you might just be better to replace it yourself.

I would do a walk through with a professional inspector before closing just to get a second set of eyes in there and then low ball the builder at closing

Tdoriot · Jul 20, 2015

Too bad that happened. No one has mentioned reinforcing. Geographically speaking, steel reinforcing may or may not be part of the process. If the slab has reinforcing in the form of rebar or heavy welded wire fabric, although it's got a hairline crack, it won't likely move any more.

cowboyjosh · Jul 20, 2015

Im a builder, more then once I / we have had to fix **** we f-ed up at my expense, especially if I can prove it was something I/we did. If I sold the house to you with no cracks in the slab and I came back for the 11 month walk thru, I wouldn't fix it, because cracks happen and I make sure to tell folks this. But before your final walk thru on something we did, you bet it'd be fixed. I am a custom builder, I want my clients moving into the house and them telling everyone how happy they are not a "were happy but" story.

I had a guy call me last year on a house I built 8 years ago, hadn't heard anything from him in 7 years and he and wanted a section of the driveway replaced AT MY EXPENSE due to spalling and a few cracks, also had a few other things he thought I should fix before he listed the house, they were moving to Arizona; he even asked for me if I could "help out" again at my expense with helping him recover his insurance deductible to fix the roof, siding, and clad windows that got hail damaged. It goes without saying I left and last I heard he sold the house with the spalled driveway and hail damaged roof, and still made a couple hundred grand over what he paid for it when I built it.

ASHMAN_AZ · Jul 20, 2015

If you were stuck doing the repair and if you were ok with having a painted finish you could use a good two part epoxy like silka crack fix. Had to mend my slab before putting down flooring. Cost me $80 in epoxy, chip the crack larger, fill with sand, fill with epoxy, spread smooth with a scraper like bondo and grind smooth. Its not just a surface repair it should bond the two halves together if done right.

The epoxy out gas is extremely toxic, even waring gloves I got a chemical burn on my forearms just from the fumes while pouring.

Might be a compromise solution.

TAMPAGT07 · Jul 20, 2015

macdabs said:
The corner that cracked in the one pic will end up *******

Yupp, concrete's like a woman, a nice crack will always end up *******....

greenlizard · Jul 20, 2015

You need to speak to a lawyer with real estate knowledge. My experience has been that a deal can be cancelled for many reasons and damage to the property is a big one. As some one else said, the agent isn't working for you, the buyer.
That concrete will heave and you'll be stuck with it and be ticked with yourself as long as you live there.

Whitworth · Jul 20, 2015

Don't know about AR, but in many states it is illegal and/or unethical for real estate agents to interpret law, ( unless they are lawyers. ) They can read a contract to you, but they can't interpret what it says, nor give legal advice.

You should have an attorney experienced in real estate read all pertinent contracts and documents. May cost a few hundred. But the builders attitude *****.

matt_i · Jul 21, 2015

You have about 90% probability right now to get this fixed, before the closing.

After the closing, it will drop to around 2% likelihood.

I would have the house independently inspected and this issue documented. Then you are armed with something you can add as a contingency to be resolved before the closing. Phone calls and requests are nice but the above will get everyone moving. Builders and real estate agents stand the most to lose when the transaction falls apart due to an impasse in negotiations.

maxpower_hd · Jul 21, 2015

I would stick to my guns. They shouldn't have run the dumpster truck over it and they know it. I would try the builder again and even tell him you may need to talk to your lawyer to see how to proceed and maybe he will change his tune.

JimbosGarage · Jul 21, 2015

All concrete cracks sooner or later, Most sooner than later, If the slab has rebar in it The cracks shouldn't get much bigger. However those cracks look like they are from heavy weight rolling across it. The contractor should take a little responsibility here!

P.S. The driveway looks to be older than 2 weeks?

Hairline cracks in new concrete driveway

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