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Harbor freight changing store hours.. To support family time.

MrBreeze

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80 posts, many of them hate'n on HF and their decision, but why get your undies in a bunch? Of course it was a financial decision - sales vs cost for that hour. Yes, they are going to put a marketing spin on it - that's the American way.
You can bash HF or love them. They are in business because they are able to serve enough of the population at a profit to employ thousands. They have their niche and do it well. The SnapOn truck guy serves a mostly different customer set, and do it well.

Can we move on now?
 
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saulvg99

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I hate to tell you this, but the quality of tools at HF is pretty decent for a lot of their hand tools. If the quality was sh/t, as you claim it is, HF wouldn't get the attention on this board that it does.

And just b/c a tool is made here in the states doesn't mean it's automatically superior to anything made elsewhere.
Exactly. I own a few of HF hand tools and they work great. Let the suckers make monthly payments to the truck, for their tools. I can go into HF and purchase my tools outright with a lifetime warranty.

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RedneckWelder

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80 posts, many of them hate'n on HF and their decision, but why get your undies in a bunch? Of course it was a financial decision - sales vs cost for that hour. Yes, they are going to put a marketing spin on it - that's the American way.
You can bash HF or love them. They are in business because they are able to serve enough of the population at a profit to employ thousands. They have their niche and do it well. The SnapOn truck guy serves a mostly different customer set, and do it well.

Can we move on now?

Don't bring common sense into this thread man.
 

lightning02

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well that *****. i liked going at night but on the other hand i dont do that any longer so i guess it doesnt really matter.
 

nutsnbolts

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I apologize if I went overboard. At times I go too far, especially with things I am passionate about. I don't always stop to see things from other people's perspective. I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings here.
 

justanengineer

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I hate to tell you this, but the quality of tools at HF is pretty decent for a lot of their hand tools. If the quality was sh/t, as you claim it is, HF wouldn't get the attention on this board that it does.

The definition of sh/t is entirely relative. Compared to the mix of name-brand American and no-brand Taiwanese and Japanese stuff they sold back in the 90s the stuff in today's stores really is low-quality sh/t. Compared to what might be sold in 20 more it could be great, who knows? Granted, Cman and other brands have also seen quality drops as well so quality is an arguable point. Personally, like many I started out in the trades with a combination of Cman and cheap imported tools then upgraded. If I was starting out today HF wouldnt even be a consideration, I wouldnt trust their tools today in a professional environment and the price point with the cheaper domestic brands has narrowed to the point its a no-brainer to buy American. Cheap import used to mean 10% of the domestic's price, today its 50-75%+ in many cases.

Also the losing jobs in the US is kinda of a mute point... no one complains about where their tv or computer was made!

You might be surprised what really is made where. Electronics are regularly brought up in these discussions as a "non-American" product, but there actually is quite a bit of US content in Asian produced electronics. I dont recall details, but one thats regularly brought up on various machinist forums is the iPhone as having a large amount of US content.
 
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goforride57

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I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings here.

Some here are so passionate about HF, I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't devastated.

Hard to believe a store closing an hour early can cause so much drama, on a tool forum. :willy_nil
 
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bwringer

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I can't say I give a **** (although I'm often rolling up just before closing, so I'll have to adjust. But the business and brand strategy behind this move is very interesting, and most people are completely missing the point.

... I am reading replies in this thread from many, many people that have never worked in retail, let alone managed. Its easy to be cynical about HFs motives, but there is no doubt in my mind the employees are happy to be closing an hour earlier.

Agreed. This is mostly a move to improve employee morale. One hour less in a day will make little to no difference to the company's sales or even to the employee paychecks, but it does make a big difference to the employees, It gives HF a powerful recruiting advantage when all the other mall employees see the HF people heading home an hour before they can.

It's very, very difficult to control turnover in retail. As the first to make this move and make it public, they just gave themselves a big advantage. Turnover and meathead employees cost a lot, so they will make and save a ton of money if they can attract better people.


... I think it says a lot that there is a big thread here devoted to telling each other what is and is not worth buying there. This doesn't give me a lot of confidence that I can make a purchase and be happy with it.

Agreed. From a business strategy standpoint, that's the biggest problem with HF and a few similar retailers -- it's half great stuff and half dogshit, so you have to research each and every purchase. (A few years ago it was almost all dogshit, so you have to admit that only half dogshit is significant progress.)

That said, it's also something they're working VERY hard to fix, and we've seen some fantastic, very high-quality tools become available. They're definitely taking greater control over quality.

I suspect in five years or so, you'll be able to walk into HF and just grab what you need with every expectation it'll work just fine. Hell, they'll probably even figure out how to get that Chinese grease smell out of the air.

Combining high perceived and actual quality and low cost in one brand is an extremely difficult balancing act, but my guess (again, purely from a business strategy standpoint) is that's exactly where they're heading.


As far as the sappy letter, yeah, I think they took it a little too far sawing at the heartstrings with the "more time with their families/save the children" pitch. (What about more time for drinking and wanking?) They should have included instructions to read the letter while munching on apple pie and humming "God Bless America".

But, although the letter was over the top glurge, the main point is true -- they really are closing earlier to make their employees happier, and they want everyone to know about it.

But it's not just out of the goodness of anyone's heart. There are very solid business reasons for it. They're not worried about you and me -- they're thinking about that bright young assistant manager over at Best Buy. She's got an hour or two to go, and is watching the HF store across the lot go dark and the employees trickle out to their cars...
 
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Mechanical Noise

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I apologize if I went overboard. At times I go too far, especially with things I am passionate about. I don't always stop to see things from other people's perspective. I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings here.

I was devastated. I'd surely be a goner by now, but I couldn't decide if my suicide gun should be a quality American piece or a cheap import.
 

182RG

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And we have clearly sent them the message that they have no reason to improve the quality of their products, because we are perfectly happy buying their POS tools by the boatload. Literally.


The Chinese can build anything to any quality spec. They could easily build a tool that equals / betters Snap-On, Matco, etc. In the manufacturing industry I'm in, the Chinese buy the same German machinery, run the same software, and have the same know-how.

They don't decide on quality, the US manufacturer / importer / retailer decides quality spec based on price point. It is that simple. Quality is driven by the market, and frankly their quality has improved to a point where Pittsburg, etc. are decent. Not great, but good enough.

A DIY'er like me doesn't spend every waking moment in the garage, or do it professionally. So, yes it it nice to have a garage full of tools to draw from, without the enormous investment. I don't need or want tools that will outlive me.



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toddoky

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The Chinese can build anything to any quality spec. They could easily build a tool that equals / betters Snap-On, Matco, etc. In the manufacturing industry I'm in, the Chinese buy the same German machinery, run the same software, and have the same know-how.

They don't decide on quality, the US manufacturer / importer / retailer decides quality spec based on price point. It is that simple. Quality is driven by the market, and frankly their quality has improved to a point where Pittsburg, etc. are decent. Not great, but good enough.

A DIY'er like me doesn't spend every waking moment in the garage, or do it professionally. So, yes it it nice to have a garage full of tools to draw from, without the enormous investment. I don't need or want tools that will outlive me.



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You left out the best parts in your endorsement of Chinese manufacturing, which is their unethical business practices that they wear like a badge of honor. I've worked directly with Chinese suppliers for 15 years and have dealt with the aggravation of quality-fade that comes with it as part of my job. The shenanigans usually begin after 4 or 5 production orders have been received and don't stop until the parts get so bad you just find a new supplier to begin the cycle all over again. They are also not as adept as you believe them to be; I can never get a first-article sample from them that meets drawing tolerances, but have no problem doing so from domestic sources. You can continue believing that China is somehow interested in producing quality goods, but the truth is it's not part of their culture...but making money surely is. The lead painted toys, tainted babies milk and radioactive metal that have landed here in the past are not anomalies to the way they do things.
 

ezover

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Most people buying at HF are non professional DIYers who not going to lay down the money for an American tool that costs several times as much as the HF version.

true, but until last year we could by craftsman tools. thankfully I already have a rest of my lifetime supply craftsman hand tools and can still find more at garage sales.

i just started to buy stuff at HF about 2 years ago. it started with their 44" toolbox and (20 ton press, i have used it twice in 2 years, how much would American made one cost?). i do not see my self buying a lot from them, but for a few items that are cheap enough for the few uses i need them for it's hard to beat.

nothing safety related or electric lol.

currently thinking about buying the cement mixer and cabinet sandblaster. i have been checking craigslist for a few years trying to find a deal on a good used one but no luck so far.
 

mfewtrail

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My store started this months ago. The employees probably needed one less hour of breathing the rubber fumes in there.
 

Jacobson

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Some people are just like that. Last night we finally had to ask two to leave an hour after close. Sorry but the staff is leaving so you have to also.

Letting them shop for an hour after close is just poor management. You need to exert some discipline, no different than raising kids with a firm hand.

Next time, you clock the door at closing time, and give people 10 mins. After 10 mins. you closed down the register and lights, and tell them sorry, too late to check out. Come back tomm. They will learn in a hurry.
 

Jacobson

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Let's see...4 (people) x 12 (dollars per hour) x 1 (hours per day) x 600 (number of stores) x 365 (days per year) =$10.5 million

Let's see...$500 in sales x 1 (hours per day) x 600 (number of stores) x 365 (days per year) = $109,000,000 of sales given up to save that $10m in labor.

The ignorance of basic business concepts is staggering. Don't ever try to start a business ....if you actually think labor costs exceed net income on any hourly basis. If that were the case, the store would not exist.
 
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stihlntime

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If they wanted to do something for American families, they could start by selling American tools, at least some. l have a hard time buying into a "Family Values" PR spin from the WalMart of the tooling industry

The sad part is that the majority of the public won't pay the price difference between USA made tools and offshore tools. At the farm store I work in a couple days a week the managers kept hearing "wish you carried American made tools" so they went out and added 12 feet of USA made tools, have not sold 5% of the inventory in two years. Remember this is an enthusiast sight. People on GGOre the minority and the exception when it comes to purchasing American or European tools, John Q Public doesn't give a chit where they come from as long as they do the job 1 time and are cheap.
 
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rice rocket

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Let's see...$500 in sales x 1 (hours per day) x 600 (number of stores) x 365 (days per year) = $109,000,000 of sales given up to save that $10m in labor.

The ignorance of basic business concepts is staggering. Don't ever try to start a business ....if you actually think labor costs exceed net income on any hourly basis. If that were the case, the store would not exist.

So what's the gross profit on that last hour?


13953783092_54352f67f8_o.jpg





Also that's a lot of 99 cent flashlights to make up $500 in sales in every store in the last hour. :willy_nil
 

Rickster

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Guarantee you there's a spreadsheet on some Exec's desk with the number of time stamped receipts across the nation broke down by hour and a cost analysis of how much money is coming in versus cost of keeping the lights on in that last hour. As soon as that cost shifted two cents to the negative they decided to give their employees some family time!
 

tool_scrounge

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For those of you thinking this change in hours by the son is for altruistic reasons, check out the Harbor Freight lawsuit in 2010 between the father and son.

"When he founded Harbor Freight Tools four decades ago, it's unlikely Allan Smidt expected it would end like it did this spring, when his own son had an executive walk him out the door and lock him out of the building.

It was the culmination of almost 15 years of growing friction between father and son. Last week Smidt, 81, and his 76-year-old wife, Dorothy, struck back in the increasingly acrimonious family feud and sued their 50-year-old son Eric L. Smidt, CEO of the Camarillo-based tool retailer and importer.

The couple accuse their son of "looting" the company to buy such things as a $20 million Manhattan apartment and a single painting for $100 million."

"It's the first detailed account of the internal workings of the privately held company that has cleared away its senior management and begun a move to new offices in Calabasas, amid online chatter that employee morale has reached an unprecedented low."

More details in the article... It is a pretty good read.

http://www.vcstar.com/business/harbor-freight-ceo-accused-by-parents-of-looting-company-ep-368199642-348750891.html
 

182RG

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You left out the best parts in your endorsement of Chinese manufacturing


Not an endorser, but a realist. You are correct. The Chinese are some of the greediest, ethically bankrupt people by culture on earth. They disrespect intellectual property, copyrights, the environment, and their own people. I get it.

But when your big box retailer / major builder customer requires you to bring them a good-better-best product package, with specific margin targets for each, and they tell you "your competition has an extensive off shore supply chain, and you will need one too to get our business at these price points", you are left with few choices.

We have to have in-house staff on-site full time auditing product. We have multiple suppliers to spread the risk, and play them against each other to keep quality up. Yep, it's sad, but it can work.


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BDT/NWMN

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For those of you thinking this change in hours by the son is for altruistic reasons, check out the Harbor Freight lawsuit in 2010 between the father and son.

"When he founded Harbor Freight Tools four decades ago, it's unlikely Allan Smidt expected it would end like it did this spring, when his own son had an executive walk him out the door and lock him out of the building.

It was the culmination of almost 15 years of growing friction between father and son. Last week Smidt, 81, and his 76-year-old wife, Dorothy, struck back in the increasingly acrimonious family feud and sued their 50-year-old son Eric L. Smidt, CEO of the Camarillo-based tool retailer and importer.

The couple accuse their son of "looting" the company to buy such things as a $20 million Manhattan apartment and a single painting for $100 million."

"It's the first detailed account of the internal workings of the privately held company that has cleared away its senior management and begun a move to new offices in Calabasas, amid online chatter that employee morale has reached an unprecedented low."

More details in the article... It is a pretty good read.

http://www.vcstar.com/business/harbor-freight-ceo-accused-by-parents-of-looting-company-ep-368199642-348750891.html

This article is an eye opener..well worth reading.

Ya, a cute little note from dearest son eric; on how HF is going to support family time.(post #1)... Perhaps he can tour all the stores; and give first hand lessons on how to treat your Father?? and steal his title as "Founder!!

Closing the stores an hour earlier would be an economic decision...
But that note reminds me of the type of person I would rather avoid doing business with.. namely eric
 
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toddoky

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Not an endorser, but a realist. You are correct. The Chinese are some of the greediest, ethically bankrupt people by culture on earth. They disrespect intellectual property, copyrights, the environment, and their own people. I get it.

But when your big box retailer / major builder customer requires you to bring them a good-better-best product package, with specific margin targets for each, and they tell you "your competition has an extensive off shore supply chain, and you will need one too to get our business at these price points", you are left with few choices.

We have to have in-house staff on-site full time auditing product. We have multiple suppliers to spread the risk, and play them against each other to keep quality up. Yep, it's sad, but it can work.


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You're in the game, so you get it. For those that aren't, let's stop pretending that the Chinese are master craftsmen bestowing their exquisitely crafted goods on the world. The consistent quality of goods coming from there is only ensured by efforts put in place on this side of the ocean as you said. If left alone to work by their own conscience, they will screw you and be quite happy about it.
 

Al Borland

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Harbor Freight quality may not be the greatest (maybe not even in the same time zone...) but when you are constantly buying tools for jobs because the tools are constantly getting destroyed or disappearing... (It worked until it went AWOL or someone ran it over)
Cheap tools for the win.
 

sberry

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believe that Harbor Freight has the American DIYer snowed. We shop there because the prices are so cheap that we think we can own something for nothing. We want a garage full of tools but we don't want to have to invest real money into it. We buy the cheap tool, use it a few times, throw it away and buy another one.
Its cheap is right. That can be a good thing. It would be different if they were paying hi prices for a cheap tool but that's not the case. I am really impressed with most stuff considering the cost and it has been getting better all the time.
 

toddoky

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Harbor Freight quality may not be the greatest (maybe not even in the same time zone...) but when you are constantly buying tools for jobs because the tools are constantly getting destroyed or disappearing... (It worked until it went AWOL or someone ran it over)
Cheap tools for the win.

Oh, there's definately a place for cheap tools, so let's appreciate them for what they provide and stop trying to make them out to be something they aren't.
 

sberry

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It's made a lot of stuff afordable for a lot of people. Not everyone needs a Snap wrench set cost 700$ or would ever be able to get it, couldn't make it pay.
 

kctyphoon

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CVS's decision was for profit:

http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/cvs-quit-smoking

"What inspired CVS’s rhetorical shift from saving pennies to saving lives? Again, as in the sixties, a change in the law has presented businesses with an opportunity. The Affordable Care Act of 2010, which expanded Medicaid coverage and required more people to buy health insurance, has helped push down the percentage of uninsured people in the U.S. (In the second quarter of 2014, about thirteen per cent of U.S. adults were uninsured, compared with seventeen per cent at the same time last year.) There is also a shortage of primary-care doctors in the U.S. CVS—along with Walmart, Walgreens, and other retailers—is trying to take advantage of this gap. Not only does it hope to fill more prescriptions for newly insured people, but it also wants to provide people with reimbursable health-care services, like what they might get at a doctor’s office.

Today, CVS operates about nine hundred “Minute Clinics” in its stores, where nurse practitioners and physician assistants treat and write prescriptions for ailments like strep throat, bladder infections, and joint sprains; they can also provide physicals to kids entering college and perform lab tests for people with conditions like diabetes or high blood pressure. Minute Clinics accept most insurance plans, according to CVS; for services that aren’t covered, patients can pay out of pocket. CVS hopes to operate fifteen hundred of these clinics by 2017".

I'm curious - do half you people EVEN READ the articles you post to "back up" your point?? Let me help you - cause not only is what you copied completely off topic, it's also totally irrelevant AND your point is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the article ACTUALLY says..

Here is the last 2 paragraphs of your article - that actually validates the point I was making, so thanks for posting this.. :)

The change in image has come at a cost. The company has estimated that it will lose two billion dollars in revenue in the first year by shutting down cigarette sales. What’s more, its executives haven’t been able to quantify what it would gain in new health-care business. Some health-care providers that help CVS run its clinics have said that they appreciate the company’s new focus, and that it has made CVS a better business partner. Yet it is unclear whether customers, given a choice among several drugstores, will chose CVS instead of, say, Walgreens or Rite-Aid.

There is another set of companies that could see a more immediate benefit from the CVS change. Back in February, when CVS announced its plans to get rid of cigarettes, Goldman Sachs tracked the Zip Codes where CVS operates stores, figured out which areas were also home to Family Dollar or Dollar General stores, and used the information about the overlap to estimate how the dollar-store chains might benefit as customers turn to them for cigarettes. Their conclusion: thanks to CVS, dollar stores can be expected to gain 0.1 per cent to 0.2 per cent in sales in 2014.
 

sberry

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The tool truck guy pretty much sticks it to who he can, afford it or not, gives one guy 10$ off a 300 wrench set or replaces a socket and he is a national fuggin hero. HF sells a wrench set that works and by all reliable accounts a great ratchet for 10$ and somehow they are screwing people?
Its no wonder the politicians can ******** people, the distorted sense of value is where the real money is, there is 1/2 the people defend this as logical and near ready to fight over it.
Its really kind of pathetic,,, wonder why we are losing to the rest of the world.
 

toddoky

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The tool truck guy pretty much sticks it to who he can, afford it or not, gives one guy 10$ off a 300 wrench set or replaces a socket and he is a national fuggin hero. HF sells a wrench set that works and by all reliable accounts a great ratchet for 10$ and somehow they are screwing people?
Its no wonder the politicians can ******** people, the distorted sense of value is where the real money is, there is 1/2 the people defend this as logical and near ready to fight over it.
Its really kind of pathetic,,, wonder why we are losing to the rest of the world.

There's a lot of tools far better than what HF offers that are nowhere near the cost of SO. You can also buy SO tools off eBay without ever stepping foot on a truck. Not everyone is satisfied living a utilitarian existence and getting by with the cheapest thing that will get the job done.
 

sberry

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I bought 1 set of sockets from them 20 yrs ago were ****. It spoiled me a bit but and i dont have a lot of the stuff but cant think of a single other thing that didnt work fine or i had to toss. The battery tester, 50 bucks, works perfect and returns its cost near every use.
 

toddoky

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I bought 1 set of sockets from them 20 yrs ago were ****. It spoiled me a bit but and i dont have a lot of the stuff but cant think of a single other thing that didnt work fine or i had to toss. The battery tester, 50 bucks, works perfect and returns its cost near every use.

Good for you. I purchased numerous tools from HF back in the day to get me by in a pinch and they all failed in short order thereafter as expected, so there was not much of a let down.
 
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