What do you wish were easier about getting custom CNC plasma parts fabricated?

savman330 · Jul 14, 2016

The title speaks for itself; when you've had parts fabricated by CNC plasma job shop what would you change about the process?

I am in considering making a web-based rapid prototyping business for CNC plasma. Essentially, it would be Proto-labs or Shapeways for CNC plasma cut parts.

As a fellow hobbyist I find it very discouraging and expensive to have one-off or low qty. parts fabricated for me. (be it plasma, laser, machining, etc.) And by expensive I am not just strictly speaking in terms of money, I am talking about time. You have to call a few shops before someone will actually give you a price, then if it's acceptable you get put at the bottom of the list. It's not uncommon for me to wait 5 weeks to have a part made and that's after hours of talking to shops and trying to get quotes. There has to be a better way.

I want to develop a web-portal that will allow users to upload a .dxf/.dwg or similar file, choose a material, choose a qty. and receive a quote in hours or even minutes. Once the quote has been received it will be fully dynamic, a change in qty will result in change in price (not just incremental; i.e. 1 piece@ 25 dollars per becomes 5 piece@ 10 per); ditto on material. Once everything is right, the order is placed and it is cut and shipped in 1 - 3 days, just like ProtoLabs.

I welcome any feedback or comments.

Radartom1 · Jul 14, 2016

worst part for me is getting off my *** and drawing the part then having to send it to the garage.

next hard part is emptying the garage dragging the plasma table out, filling it with water then firing everything up.

I guess I'm no help

Brian_WK · Jul 14, 2016

Sorry to derail but would this be more suited for water-jet? More materials can be cut an nicer finish? A fee for bending would be a nice touch.
Power etching anodizing etc I wouldn't bother let the customer do that.
The web portal with being able to upload would be awesome. Especially with the 1-3 turn around. I feel the pain when I want something one off cut around here as they always want to group my smaller things in with something that is coming up that is the same material or the price doubles or triples.
Price per inch and material type would be awesome.

Brian

MikeGyver · Jul 14, 2016

Interesting idea!

There have been many times I have cut something by hand or with an angle grinder that I wish I could have CNC cut, but I didn't want to spend the time looking for somebody to do it.

My thoughts:
Show honest examples of the finish the customer should expect.
I would like to submit a simple drawing since I don't have CAD experience.
Include shipping in the initial quote. Use Flat Rate boxes where applicable.

Thumper68 · Jul 14, 2016

I think this could be a great service, I know I would use it. I have the same issues as others here who have problems either with the timing (taking forever to get the job done) or with the high prices for fast service.

I think you could start with a few of the less expensive CNC Plasma tables, like the PlasmaCam, I would want at least 3 if it were me because a machine that is down could wreck you. Then as business picked up you could add waterjet and laser cutting to the services.

A web based cad program would be a great addition because not all of us have cad at home. it would only have to be a 2D cad since everything is flat.

moonpool145 · Jul 14, 2016

There are currently many web based shops offering this that do a good job. i had GJ'er kazsx do some for me and he did a good job. I like to pass work to guys on the forum as I believe reading their threads verifies the qualities to me. As a primary business (not hobby business) My main suggestions would be (in order of importance):
1) Customer service
2 - 10) Customer service
11) Time for delivery - All of us project guys are in a hurry. Having various types of material on hand for rapid cutting and shipping would be paramount.
12) I would agree on water jet. High Def plasma is good for may components but standard stuff may not meet many customer expectations. In addition, there is no edge finishing.
13) Programming service to take a guys sketch and make it executable
14) Also encourage you to have a larger table and a hoist over the table so you can handle larger sheets. This is more economical than using small pieces or cutting larger sheets into smaller pieces so that both you and your table can handle them. The key to profitability is high utilization of available table time.

Last thing, no matter how many guys are out there doing this, you can end up with a large market share no matter what you are doing, just by taking care of the customer

Good luck, sounds like a fun undertaking.

aggierailroad · Jul 14, 2016

You will quickly get frustrated by people not knowing how to make a good cut image.

They will want letter signs without bridging added for the cutouts. They will send you the wrong file types. They will have jittery vectors that won't cut nice and then you're stuck with scrap steel. On the whole, most people don't know the process so they don't understand how critical a good drawing is. From there, most don't know how to create a drawing let alone what software to use.

Imagine if they all got Inkscape for free, did a bitmap trace and sent you the .svg files to quote. You'd get a lot of ****. I think it's a good idea, and I'm lucky that I know where to find a table for my own parts, but it might drive you crazy. This same reason is why machine shops won't give anyone the time of day. It costs too much money to interpret drawings into parts.

mike13u · Jul 14, 2016

I think you have a great idea. But, it will likely be hobbyist helping hobbyist.
A larger shop is making you wait 3-5 weeks because that is their lead time on small jobs. You are asking for an inexpensive part to be cut in a short run. The shop isn't making a whole lot on your work and would likely have to slide it in between more profitable jobs. Often on small jobs they need a larger job to order a qty of the material you need for your small job just for it to make sense for them. Add to the fact that you are unlikely to be able to supply future work in quantities that would make them money (yes, they know this).
This is certainly no reason for them to ignore you or not answer an RFQ. We quote everything unless we don't have the capabilities. Then we respond with an 'I'm sorry'. But, some jobs are going to be quoted higher prices and longer lead times because they aren't very profitable ventures unless we have some margin and time flexibility.
I do like your idea, but I think just on material alone you would have a hard time feeding any one small shop cutting jobs consistently. How will you quote jobs within an hour when it will often take hours for you to get quotes on a non-inventoried sheet of material?
Now that that is out of the way, there are people on here that will cut your parts within a week and ship. For plasma (with a good file) I can usually ship within days and I'm pretty sure Kazsx out in California can make something happen as well.
I wish you the best and if you move forward and need help or have questions feel free to reach out.

firworks · Jul 14, 2016

One place I would look at for inspiration os OSHPark. They are a PCB aggregator that I use to get boards made. The way they work is standardize on the specs of the board. You can't get custom colors or thicknesses. Since everyone is on the same board, they just collect orders until they can do one big panel. That way they can get good turnaround time from US fab houses because they aren't asking for small quantities of boards, they're buying whole panels at a time. You could let people submit jobs and then run a script periodically to check if it can fit all of the designs on one large sheet and then send that out to a local shop to be milled / plasma'd / jet'd. Even if you own the jet or plasma yourself doing it this way allows you to buy material in bulk, and only setup say one cut a day that just runs and cuts out all the designs that made it to manufacture for the day. Rather than running tons of little orders all the time. This could be a really stupid idea as I don't own a plasma or water jet or know anything but OSHPark is what popped into my head reading the OP post.

Nor'Easter · Jul 14, 2016

Cool idea.

Downfall will be all the hillbillys sending you stained drawings done in pen, with random dimensions or none at all.

savman330 · Jul 14, 2016

ducksface said:
Price per inch burned
Ability to scan a drawing or photo in to your file type.
Powdercoating and chrome shop and engraver and someone with a big brake on your speed dial.

I want to email a picture and dimensions, pay too much, and the part come back however I want it.

It should be that simple.

I couldn't agree more.

re: drawings and photos; I would need to charge a CAD fee, but my first thought is I could have a photo/drawing viewer that the client could use to draw a bounding box around the material and then enter the number of pierces. From there I could automatically calculate a quote based on size, material, qty, and pierces.

Would probably limit the amount in dollars or qty. that could be quoted this way to protect both parties.

savman330 · Jul 14, 2016

Brian_WK said:
Sorry to derail but would this be more suited for water-jet? More materials can be cut an nicer finish? A fee for bending would be a nice touch.
Power etching anodizing etc I wouldn't bother let the customer do that.
The web portal with being able to upload would be awesome. Especially with the 1-3 turn around. I feel the pain when I want something one off cut around here as they always want to group my smaller things in with something that is coming up that is the same material or the price doubles or triples.
Price per inch and material type would be awesome.

Brian

I have an engraver on my CNC so that is an option. Surprised at how many people want bending as well.

Water-jet would be suited to the same style system but I don't have a water-jet! Yet.

savman330 · Jul 14, 2016

mike13u said:
I think you have a great idea. But, it will likely be hobbyist helping hobbyist.

I hope your wrong here! Also I don't quite understand what you are saying (below) re: feeding one small shop cutting jobs consistently....do you mean I will have a hard time sourcing material or keeping up with the demand to feed a single shop?

Please elaborate on why you think this isn't a good idea for B2B.

I do like your idea, but I think just on material alone you would have a hard time feeding any one small shop cutting jobs consistently. How will you quote jobs within an hour when it will often take hours for you to get quotes on a non-inventoried sheet of material?

I don't expect it to be trivial to develop this feature, but I should be able to import a .dwg/.dxf and do something (e.g. use F360 API or write a custom script etc.) to calculate the length of cuts and number of pierces. From there is a straightforward algorithm based on qty and material. Shipping can easily be calculated once I know the material and dimensions of the product.

If ProtoLabs can custom write a program to return a quote on 3d parts I should be able to duct tape something for a much simpler 2d process. [/sarcasm]

The idea is to have all of this running in the background returning quotes automatically.

A benefit to plasma is there aren't that many materials.

Upcharging for rare materials is an option as well. But one of the premises here is I gain efficiency in materials by aggregating lots of small orders.

Now that that is out of the way, there are people on here that will cut your parts within a week and ship. For plasma (with a good file) I can usually ship within days and I'm pretty sure Kazsx out in California can make something happen as well.

I wish you the best and if you move forward and need help or have questions feel free to reach out.

I appreciate your feed back.

eta: I plan on using a price per lb. parameter for materials that can be updated daily/weekly as needed. That should work for most common materials anyway.

savman330 · Jul 14, 2016

aggierailroad said:
You will quickly get frustrated by people not knowing how to make a good cut image.

They will want letter signs without bridging added for the cutouts. They will send you the wrong file types. They will have jittery vectors that won't cut nice and then you're stuck with scrap steel. On the whole, most people don't know the process so they don't understand how critical a good drawing is. From there, most don't know how to create a drawing let alone what software to use.

Imagine if they all got Inkscape for free, did a bitmap trace and sent you the .svg files to quote. You'd get a lot of ****. I think it's a good idea, and I'm lucky that I know where to find a table for my own parts, but it might drive you crazy. This same reason is why machine shops won't give anyone the time of day. It costs too much money to interpret drawings into parts.

Perhaps I could have a two tiered pricing structure: one for properly formatted CAD; another for drawing/photos, files that are in improper format, and everything else.

Someone mentioned a simple browser based 'CAD'. CAD in quotes as it would be rudimentary.

savman330 · Jul 14, 2016

firworks said:
One place I would look at for inspiration os OSHPark. They are a PCB aggregator that I use to get boards made. The way they work is standardize on the specs of the board. You can't get custom colors or thicknesses. Since everyone is on the same board, they just collect orders until they can do one big panel. That way they can get good turnaround time from US fab houses because they aren't asking for small quantities of boards, they're buying whole panels at a time. You could let people submit jobs and then run a script periodically to check if it can fit all of the designs on one large sheet and then send that out to a local shop to be milled / plasma'd / jet'd. Even if you own the jet or plasma yourself doing it this way allows you to buy material in bulk, and only setup say one cut a day that just runs and cuts out all the designs that made it to manufacture for the day. Rather than running tons of little orders all the time. This could be a really stupid idea as I don't own a plasma or water jet or know anything but OSHPark is what popped into my head reading the OP post.

Any thoughts on offering lower rates on a few standard sizes in steel to incentive people to use similar thicknesses? Other ideas on encouraging a particular set of materials? The only people I need to incentive are one doing one-offs and a few parts. Maybe I could offer a partial rebate on CAD fee for drawings if you select from this list of materials?

In my experience I am not that fickle when it comes to size; if it's .1875 vs .25, generally it doesn't matter to me.

One of the premises behind this venture is leveraging the power of the internet to aggregate a bunch of small orders. How many....I have no idea; but the idea is you can get a competitively priced one-off part if I can aggregate say 10, 20 or however many small orders of a size and cut every 3rd day.

eta: Just checked out OSHPark...good suggestion. I have no frame of reference for 5$/in^2; Could you elaborate? i.e. how does that compare etching your own board or sourcing from China, etc?

savman330 · Jul 14, 2016

MikeGyver said:
Interesting idea!

There have been many times I have cut something by hand or with an angle grinder that I wish I could have CNC cut, but I didn't want to spend the time looking for somebody to do it.

My thoughts:
Show honest examples of the finish the customer should expect.
I would like to submit a simple drawing since I don't have CAD experience.
Include shipping in the initial quote. Use Flat Rate boxes where applicable.

Flat rate is exactly what I had in mind. Up to 70# provided it fits. That's pretty easy to calculate.

I could write a script to calculate shipping on small lighter parcels but I suspect Priority Flat Rate is going to win the day on the majority of orders.

savman330 · Jul 14, 2016

A couple people have mentioned having parts bent or powder coated as add-ons. What is the best way to charge on brake operations...price per bend? Anyone have any feedback re: pricing on brake or powder-coating as an add-on?

mike13u · Jul 15, 2016

savman330 said:
I hope your wrong here! Also I don't quite understand what you are saying (below) re: feeding one small shop cutting jobs consistently....do you mean I will have a hard time sourcing material or keeping up with the demand to feed a single shop?

Please elaborate on why you think this isn't a good idea for B2B.

Quite simply, the B2B world doesn't have this problem. You are frustrated by the problem you are having as a hobbyist trying to get small runs of parts produced. You are looking to provide a solution to the problem but the problem is only a problem because you are a hobbyist.
I think you have a market and I think it has some potential but my opinion is that the business is likely to cater to hobbyist because people in industry generally don't have an issue getting parts laser cut, waterjet cut, plasma cut, brake formed, powder coated, etc.

kazlx · Jul 15, 2016

Agree with everything Mike said and I operate on hobbyist level a lot of the time. My number 1 problem is getting crappy drawings. I don't think most people understand the work flow and how things need to be.

Then again, it's really hard to keep a lot of material in stock and if I don't have it, I have to buy it. Then, for example, say someone wants an odd material or size. You pay a premium from the supplier to get it because you aren't buying in bulk. I don't want to buy in bulk if it's something that I'm never going to use again.

There's just so many factors in doing what you're suggesting. I try to help the little guy out as much as possible because I know it's a pain to get stuff cut at a shop, but there's only so much of my own time that I can waste to fix a drawing or redesign a part.

kazlx · Jul 15, 2016

savman330 said:
I hope your wrong here! Also I don't quite understand what you are saying (below) re: feeding one small shop cutting jobs consistently....do you mean I will have a hard time sourcing material or keeping up with the demand to feed a single shop?

Please elaborate on why you think this isn't a good idea for B2B.

I don't expect it to be trivial to develop this feature, but I should be able to import a .dwg/.dxf and do something (e.g. use F360 API or write a custom script etc.) to calculate the length of cuts and number of pierces. From there is a straightforward algorithm based on qty and material. Shipping can easily be calculated once I know the material and dimensions of the product.

If ProtoLabs can custom write a program to return a quote on 3d parts I should be able to duct tape something for a much simpler 2d process. [/sarcasm]

The idea is to have all of this running in the background returning quotes automatically.

A benefit to plasma is there aren't that many materials.

Upcharging for rare materials is an option as well. But one of the premises here is I gain efficiency in materials by aggregating lots of small orders.

I appreciate your feed back.

eta: I plan on using a price per lb. parameter for materials that can be updated daily/weekly as needed. That should work for most common materials anyway.

There are some things in here that are just wrong that will cause you massive headaches. There are tons of materials for plasma. Think every gauge, to plate, in steel, aluminum and stainless. You will get people asking about it all. A lot of times I can use something I have because people don't know exactly what they want, but if you were trying to automate and had dropdowns or something during orders, you are going to have problems.

Aggregating small orders is also going to be a problem. How long you going to wait to cut stuff out of 1/8"? You get an order for two pieces. You going to load a piece to cut two pieces? You going to wait a week to see if you get more, two weeks, etc?

Just a few examples of what I've personally gone though helping people out. The model you are proposing just has some fatal flaws IMO. There's been a lot of hard knocks doing work for other people.

Another issue I always check is scaling. How are you going to make sure the scale is correct? If you get a drawing and it's supposed to be 12" long and it ends up 6" long, how do you figure out who's fault it is? If it's yours, you're going to have to eat the parts.

savman330 · Jul 15, 2016

kazlx said:
There are some things in here that are just wrong that will cause you massive headaches. There are tons of materials for plasma. Think every gauge, to plate, in steel, aluminum and stainless. You will get people asking about it all. A lot of times I can use something I have because people don't know exactly what they want, but if you were trying to automate and had dropdowns or something during orders, you are going to have problems.

Aggregating small orders is also going to be a problem. How long you going to wait to cut stuff out of 1/8"? You get an order for two pieces. You going to load a piece to cut two pieces? You going to wait a week to see if you get more, two weeks, etc?

What are your thoughts on offering economy pricing on a subset of common sizes?

Or maybe common sizes would have a standard turn-around (e.g. 3 days) but uncommon would have longer delivery times standard with an option for faster turn for a fee?

If you cut 100 different random jobs could you ball park the majority of the material distribution? In other words, do 60% or 40% or 20% of orders come from a subset of 3; 5; 10 material/thickness combos?

Another issue I always check is scaling. How are you going to make sure the scale is correct? If you get a drawing and it's supposed to be 12" long and it ends up 6" long, how do you figure out who's fault it is? If it's yours, you're going to have to eat the parts.

When I order something verbally, or some other ambiguous communication method, I often have to sign off on the final invoice before processing. I would probably send a dimensioned drawing that has to be approved before production. The labor would need to be built into either the CAD fee or a higher rate for drawings and photos.

Lastly, a few people have mentioned add-on processes like powder coat, welding, bending etc. Do you find people often want these types of services in addition to cutting?

Thanks for all your input; it's great to hear from a professional.

kmacht · Jul 15, 2016

Start small. You don't have to offer everything at once. Start by offering things cut only in 1/8, 1/4, and 3/8 mild steel to start. That keeps you from having to stock multiple sizes of material and makes the possibility of batching more likely. If the business works then you can move on to adding other options.

Could you use something like google sketchup for customers to submit their drawings on? It is unlikely that the average guy is going to have autocad at their disposal to provide you dxf files.

Another option would be to charge a design fee to take a hand drawing and turn it into something that can be cut. There is money to be made in the design side, not just the cutting side.

Keith

kazlx · Jul 15, 2016

Economy pricing on common sizes would be fine. I typically buy stuff in bulk that I use a lot of. Most of my signs are 13g, so I buy that by the stack. I also use a lot of 1/4" and 3/8'. It can also depend on the capacity of your machine. I'm using a Powermax 85, so I can cut thicker stuff pretty quickly, where as a 45 might be quite a bit slower running 3/8" material, so you would want to account for all of that.

IMO it's honestly really hard to ballpark material distributions. If you pitch a certain service out there (say advertising on the internet) like I do with signs, I know I can use the majority of the same material. On the flip side, with open requests, you are going to get everything under the sun. I would say most fabrication projects are going to probably be sheetmetal (say 14g-20g), 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" plate. I try not to do a lot of thicker stuff just because it's a pain for me to load. But you will also get requests for stainless and aluminum.

I don't really get a lot of requests for additional services, but I have done some. I don't have a good press brake at the moment. One of my best customers does all of his own bending, he just pays me to cut out parts for him because it saves so much time and he typically uses 1/8" material. I have a good powdercoating guy that I use when I need that type of stuff. I typically finish all my bare parts with a wire wheel and then 80 grit flat sand.

I've had really good luck so far using Fusion360 and having people draw their own files and share a folder with me that they can drop things into. Your biggest time **** will be the files/formats/bad drawings. Most of the time, I would prefer to get a napkin drawing and draw it myself than use someone's file. Simple stuff is quick, but more complicated stuff can drain you.

I also drill small holes after using the plasma to locate. Just some detail stuff like that to think about. You would also want to thing about finishing. Probably something like a big tumbler, but that also doesn't work well for thinner or larger parts.

Brian_WK · Jul 15, 2016

I think a online grid 2D program to draw the parts up and drop downs that reflect available materials. Anything that can't be done via those would increase customers price and lead time and would qualify as special order. Development of or leasing of said program will be costly but going off of some idiots cellphone picture of a napkin drawn when he was drunk at 1am in a bar would be a nightmare.

Brian

steel 35 · Jul 15, 2016

Please make one of these for you and one for me!

red92s · Jul 15, 2016

Gut reaction: You will stay very busy, while not making much money.

I think your biggest problem, as others have stated, is you are vastly underestimating and undervaluing how much time you will spend not making parts: answering emails, keeping the website going, placing material orders, packaging orders, sorting through scrap, answering a third question from a guy who does not understand file types or tolerances, calling around because someone wants something plated afterwards. The list goes on and on and on.

Hobbyists might not like the costs associated with very short runs of parts, but they are priced like that for a reason.

kazlx · Jul 15, 2016

Bingo.

There's a lot of stuff I do to help people out that wouldn't be possible if I was supporting myself via cutting parts. I have a full time job already. It would be really hard to pay bills and deal with a lot of the stuff that comes from making little one off parts.

Check out tabandslot.com. These guys do it with lasers and seem pretty efficient. They would be hard to compete with.

4 FN 27 · Jul 15, 2016

I could probably write on this subject for years. I been in the Sheet Metal Game for 36 years. Typically I/we do quotes for anything from a washer to a 150 part number assembly to the tune of about 400 quotes per week. 1 offs to hundreds of thousands of parts.

Our customer supply us Cad Model 98% of the time now via email or drop site. And yes we still get napkin sketches. We will do anything involving sheet metal.

The hit rate on quotes is about 40% which is pretty decent.

There are so many variables. Granted we are a Fabrication Job Shop employing 90+ people running 20 hours a day with 6 Laser Centers, 7 Turrets and 26 Press Brakes, all state of the art.

I guess it all depends on how you define you business or is it a hobby. From the business side we have processes, departments and all kinds of hands that need to touch the "order" before it even hits the floor, while on the floor and after it ships. Thus that drives our pricing model.

As an example I just quoted a washer. .060 CRS, 1/2 inch hole, 1.00" OD. based on a 24 x 24 inch blank punched complete in a turret, bulk packed in a box with free local delivery. Defined by our business model here is how the quote breaks out:

1 pcs = $178.82
2 pcs = $89.54
10 pcs = $18.11
100 pcs = $2.04
10000 pcs = $0.26

How can we get $178.82 for a washer? Our business model demands it or I'll be laying everyone off in a week or so.

What drives the cost? All the hands involved. Sales guy, Order entry, programmer, shear operator, turret operator, inspection, shipping personal, truck driver. Now add on all the overhead, property tax at over $3300 per week, Insurance and so on.

ROI is the biggest driver. We have to turn a good profit after the Feds take 39.6% and the state takes 9.85% of every dollar earned. We have equipment to pay for and great employees to take care of.

Now as a hobby. Yep I play that game too. I have an at home fab shop and do it mostly for fun and makes tons of stuff for friends and that one on one communication is key to making things go smoothly. Heck I sit in meetings with Engineers who can even articulate what they want with a CAD Model sitting in front of them. Can't imagine trying to do something online without a lot of back and forth.

I could see taking in all kinds of different file types and boiling them down to one system but then how do you translate that back to your customer? I suspect you could make a simple print and PDF it out and send it back for approval.

What I am really seriously interested in, is how do you get paid? Up front? In our business a walk in off the street looking for a bracket or the next pooper scooper that is gong to make them $$millions$$ as soon as their infomercial is aired are all COD. Even then it is a risk because if they here the final Time and Material price they may not decided to pick it up.

I am having a Machining Center installed next week at home. Never done any CNC programming of a Mill and I am looking at how I should be charging my time on that. I played with a manual Bridgeport for the last 40 years but no real machining experience...I see a lot of broken cutters in the few weeks.

Looking forward to hearing other pitch in. A very good topic.

savman330 · Jul 15, 2016

Brian_WK said:
I think a online grid 2D program to draw the parts up and drop downs that reflect available materials. Anything that can't be done via those would increase customers price and lead time and would qualify as special order. Development of or leasing of said program will be costly but going off of some idiots cellphone picture of a napkin drawn when he was drunk at 1am in a bar would be a nightmare.

Brian

I like the drop down menu idea...essentially here's what you can choose from that will have fast turnaround without extra charges; otherwise special order charges apply

savman330 · Jul 15, 2016

kazlx said:
Bingo.

There's a lot of stuff I do to help people out that wouldn't be possible if I was supporting myself via cutting parts. I have a full time job already. It would be really hard to pay bills and deal with a lot of the stuff that comes from making little one off parts.

Check out tabandslot.com. These guys do it with lasers and seem pretty efficient. They would be hard to compete with.

I signed up for an account at tabandslot.com; another great resource I didn't even know about, thx.

Haven't received an email yet, but they seem to operate under a stock set of materials and anything else is premium plan. I am curious what they have as stock materials.

savman330 · Jul 15, 2016

red92s said:
Gut reaction: You will stay very busy, while not making much money.

I think your biggest problem, as others have stated, is you are vastly underestimating and undervaluing how much time you will spend not making parts: answering emails, keeping the website going, placing material orders, packaging orders, sorting through scrap, answering a third question from a guy who does not understand file types or tolerances, calling around because someone wants something plated afterwards. The list goes on and on and on.

Some of these I think I can automate to a degree; but answering the third email re: file:types and tolerances could be a rabbit hole, I agree.

Hobbyists might not like the costs associated with very short runs of parts, but they are priced like that for a reason.

I don't mind paying a reasonable price it's everything else that frustrates me.

savman330 · Jul 15, 2016

4 FN 27 said:
I could probably write on this subject for years. I been in the Sheet Metal Game for 36 years.....

Thanks for the fantastic response!

What drives the cost? All the hands involved. Sales guy, Order entry, programmer, shear operator, turret operator, inspection, shipping personal, truck driver. Now add on all the overhead, property tax at over $3300 per week, Insurance and so on.

I could see taking in all kinds of different file types and boiling them down to one system but then how do you translate that back to your customer? I suspect you could make a simple print and PDF it out and send it back for approval.

That's basically what I have in mind. I need to standardize the input I receive, run a series of operations to calculate cut length, material used, #pierces, etc......but once I have the input standardized it's game over. From there I can return a real-time dynamic quote to the customer; track material usage, decrement the piece from inventory; create remnants; automate material resupply (would be trivial to automate via email based on certain parameters being met..e.g. #'s of stock threshold); que shipping labels by nest or cutting operation; and more.

Granted each feature listed above has it's own set of problems and some could be SAAS products in their own right e.g. inventory management, but I think integrating all of them into one seamless package could provide a ton of value by lessening some of the cost centers you list above.

Oh and yea, I think a pdf with dimensions for approval would be great. Could probably make it browser based for approval with an emailed file for client records.

What I am really seriously interested in, is how do you get paid? Up front? In our business a walk in off the street looking for a bracket or the next pooper scooper that is gong to make them $$millions$$ as soon as their infomercial is aired are all COD. Even then it is a risk because if they here the final Time and Material price they may not decided to pick it up.

Upfront 100%. It would be like an e-commerce store for plasma cutting. Would probably integrate Stripe into the accept quote page. I mean accepting P.O.'s for larger orders isn't out of the question, but not something I've given any thought too. I hate<strike>extending credit.</strike> chasing people down for money.

I am having a Machining Center installed next week at home. Never done any CNC programming of a Mill and I am looking at how I should be charging my time on that. I played with a manual Bridgeport for the last 40 years but no real machining experience...I see a lot of broken cutters in the few weeks.

Looking forward to hearing other pitch in. A very good topic.

While I'm just in the research phase I pesonally think the first response in the thread nailed it. It should be that simple.

I think that should apply to all types of custom fabrication, not just plasma, but I have a plasma, not a VMC (and a VMC has many more challenges). I think that Proto Labs and Shapeways business models are a glimpse of what the future should look like. Take for example Plethora; there should be a shop like this in every medium sized city. I know I might come off as wide-eyed and a even a little corny, but there so much room for improvement I can't help but get excited. If there's one thing I've learned in my own hardware ventures is: I can't make it cheaper than the Chinese, but I can make it better and faster.

Jason Lister · Jul 15, 2016

steel 35 said:
Please make one of these for you and one for me!

Sorry, you need to bridge those letters or would you like me to redraw and charge you for the CAD time? :lol_hitti

kkroger · Jul 16, 2016

From the shop standpoint...
Customers NEVER have usable designs or artwork, I generally would need to spend the shop "Hour" doing a conversion of a craptastic file... Generally the BEST I get is a teeny Tiny JPG or raster image that is of such poor quality that I would need to spend hours cleaning it up after conversion and for the right money I am willing to do that. Generally I get a cocktail napkin doodle with "Make it about yay.... by say... yay" I got a really nice drawing from a client a while back that had dimensions on it and everything but the dims provided were not going to work for the product... doing the math it would not work, there were 4 holes that were not addressed as to location and the client was not able to do so. I did receive 3 possible files (for my use) a .DXF, a .SVG, and a .DWG from a client the other day, all of a similar part. but all different sizes (improper scaling in 3 separate pieces of software) I called to ask about the dims (I was subbed this by another shop) and he said he got the files from the client... I asked if they wanted the three different sizes, no it is a single part... they want a sample first for approval then to cut "In Bulk" he checked with the client and about a WEEK later I got "He wants is 14" on the long side" none of the drawings were even close to that dimension.... so I end up re-drawing the thing to make the two Radii Correct and the short dimension correct... I cut a sample as requested from my material, 14Ga, and provided it... TWO WEEKS later I get he wants 12... "Bulk Order" 12... and the shop dropped off some drops of 14Ga for me to chop this out of... So I would have to put my 5+ $1500 jobs to cut 12 brackets... I put it off for another week and delivered them yesterday, along with 10 signs for the same shop, he wants a sign for his shop too. I'll get around to it soon enough. I can bang out 5 Corporate signs a day at $1500 ea, Every day... From Birth to Rendering (as long as the client can find the time to approve of the rendering or tell me how BIG they want the thing) to final product, finished ready to install....
Here is an example from a couple days ago, the client provided artwork was useless a cell phone screen capture of their home page... TINY... asked for a better image, "This is all we have" so after a brief google search on the company name I found a VERY LARGE version of their logo... on their server... Did the conversion and a hasty Rendering, provided to Client, couple hours later it was approved cut and basic finishing was done (another department) then the parts were provided to me again for powdercoating, then I assisted with assembly.

We are a small shop, I do CAD/CAM, Operate the plasma table, I can paint if I need to, I do the powder coating, any FAB or WELDING work, also run the shear and so forth... we have a painter, a General Laborer who does dross removal, and degreasing etc. He also does assembly on some items, and installs LED lighting on signs, tests those and puts the tested items in a bag to provide with the signage, Two Salesmen and an Artist who mainly Grinds cool patterns into signage or Burnish patterns etc. He also paints and provides input to design from the artists perspective, plus we have two salesmen.

savman330 · Jul 16, 2016

kkroger,

While I knew pictures and drawings would be a challenge, I just assumed most people would submit files (.dwg, .dxf, .svg etc.)that were more or less on par with the quality of file I make for myself. Based on your experience and other comments itt, that seems to be a faulty premise. Thanks for the feedback.

savman330 · Jul 16, 2016

4 FN 27,

Do you care to elaborate on your quoting, order entry process etc. from a workflow standpoint? I am referring to this quote from your post:

From the business side we have processes, departments and all kinds of hands that need to touch the "order" before it even hits the floor,

What areas are the most labor intensive or provide the greatest bottleneck?

I can understand why a medium-small shop like kkroger may not be able to justify automating some of his quoting workflow, but 400 quotes a week is a lot, imo. Plus, you said 98% were in CAD format already.

Last night I did a cursory search for the type of quoting software I have envisioned in my head. Basically take an existing CAD file: calculate inches burned, #pierces, bounding box for material loss (e.g. 6" circle would consume a ~6.5 x 6.5" box of material), and return a dynamic quote to the customer that could easily include dynamic shipping/delivery fees, part delivery times/surcharges for rush etc. Aside from automating the process making it dynamic and accessible by browser would eliminate all the 'hey Joe, what if we want to change from 14ga to .1875', or 'how much extra for a 2 day delivery' etc. etc. Having been in business for myself for a decade I know how all those extra emails and, god forbid, phone calls can add up.

The only thing I found, and again I want to stress the cursory nature of my search, was a program called Cutquote that apparently was developed in house by a laser fabrication company who figured they might as well monetize it. I guess.

mike13u · Jul 16, 2016

If you wanted to automate the process I would think you would need to be prepared to bring in a hefty initial inventory of material.
That will be the only material you will know the price on and can assign a definite price to. Any material outside that inventory you will need to send RFQs to your suppliers and update your prices often. Quotes are generally good 10-14 days from suppliers.

bsaint · Jul 16, 2016

Ive worked both sides of the aspect. People just have to realize that metal fabrication with CNC equipment on a hobby level is an expensive hobby. When Im quoted 150 dollars for one part, I know that's what its going to be and budget my projects both time and money-wise accordingly. Due to the complexity of the equipment and the process, the setup and what not cannot be taken lightly or entirely automated. Its why its a whole industry.

kkroger · Jul 16, 2016

IF a client could actually provide usable drawings, electronically, then half my job would be cake! but it just doesn't happen it is RARE that a hobbyist can do that or will do that
Larger corporate interests or some end users will provide usable drawings for production runs of parts. If the guy could do it I am sure he Would do it, I'll still charge an hour of shop time for it.

I have to run my shop, I have to pay rent/mortgage, Electric, Water, Gas, I have to buy materials, I have to pay 6 employees at this time.. they work 8 hours a day doing my production work.. for a small part I probably won't be finishing it, I MAY tumble it, or something to remove a burr or dross if there is any ( I am pretty good and eliminating that at the source) BUT I still have to pay these guys, Salesmen get commission straight, make a sale, get paid, Painter and Laborer get Hourly, myself and the Artist (business partners) get sort of a salary.. We may be SMALL but we do pretty good business, sometimes pulling in $40k over a 3 day period, with orders 3-4 weeks out... plus other work coming in. So TIME really IS MONEY for me, I don't drive a brand new truck, I don't take my birthday off, I WORK, so I will take some work, but others I have to send down the road. I have a few shops about town that I do things for, I drove a few miles away the other day to consult with another shop on why their plasma table was a POS... I advised him to sell the machine he paid $30k for in January and buy something better and cheaper since his has not worked EVER since he has had it on his floor. I cut the first part on it... GOOD LORD what a POS... He wants to invest in our shop... He has a LOT of money... Maybe it will help out! We certainly are not hurting for business, most times but with every shop there is a bit of a wave... sometimes you can't keep up other times you can't figure out how to pay the bills... and Employees expect a check every week, ungrateful bastards! Ive had 6 executives from Big Box stores in the shop to see the operation, and to determine what they want us to send to their stores....

4 FN 27 · Jul 17, 2016

savman330 said:
Thanks for the fantastic response!

That's basically what I have in mind. I need to standardize the input I receive, run a series of operations to calculate cut length, material used, #pierces, etc......but once I have the input standardized it's game over. From there I can return a real-time dynamic quote to the customer; track material usage, decrement the piece from inventory; create remnants; automate material resupply (would be trivial to automate via email based on certain parameters being met..e.g. #'s of stock threshold); que shipping labels by nest or cutting operation; and more.

Granted each feature listed above has it's own set of problems and some could be SAAS products in their own right e.g. inventory management, but I think integrating all of them into one seamless package could provide a ton of value by lessening some of the cost centers you list above.

Oh and yea, I think a pdf with dimensions for approval would be great. Could probably make it browser based for approval with an emailed file for client records.

Upfront 100%. It would be like an e-commerce store for plasma cutting. Would probably integrate Stripe into the accept quote page. I mean accepting P.O.'s for larger orders isn't out of the question, but not something I've given any thought too. I hate<strike>extending credit.</strike> chasing people down for money.

While I'm just in the research phase I pesonally think the first response in the thread nailed it. It should be that simple.

I think that should apply to all types of custom fabrication, not just plasma, but I have a plasma, not a VMC (and a VMC has many more challenges). I think that Proto Labs and Shapeways business models are a glimpse of what the future should look like. Take for example Plethora; there should be a shop like this in every medium sized city. I know I might come off as wide-eyed and a even a little corny, but there so much room for improvement I can't help but get excited. If there's one thing I've learned in my own hardware ventures is: I can't make it cheaper than the Chinese, but I can make it better and faster.

savman330 said:
4 FN 27,

Do you care to elaborate on your quoting, order entry process etc. from a workflow standpoint? I am referring to this quote from your post:

What areas are the most labor intensive or provide the greatest bottleneck?

I can understand why a medium-small shop like kkroger may not be able to justify automating some of his quoting workflow, but 400 quotes a week is a lot, imo. Plus, you said 98% were in CAD format already.

Last night I did a cursory search for the type of quoting software I have envisioned in my head. Basically take an existing CAD file: calculate inches burned, #pierces, bounding box for material loss (e.g. 6" circle would consume a ~6.5 x 6.5" box of material), and return a dynamic quote to the customer that could easily include dynamic shipping/delivery fees, part delivery times/surcharges for rush etc. Aside from automating the process making it dynamic and accessible by browser would eliminate all the 'hey Joe, what if we want to change from 14ga to .1875', or 'how much extra for a 2 day delivery' etc. etc. Having been in business for myself for a decade I know how all those extra emails and, god forbid, phone calls can add up.

The only thing I found, and again I want to stress the cursory nature of my search, was a program called Cutquote that apparently was developed in house by a laser fabrication company who figured they might as well monetize it. I guess.

I can do that. I'll do it from my office. Via my phone is a little tough.

Your asking all the right question and seem to have your head in the game.

What do you wish were easier about getting custom CNC plasma parts fabricated?

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