what's up with this craftsman socket design?

tpolley · Nov 15, 2009

i bought a whole set of these when i was 16 back in '98 or '99. i didn't know it untill i got home but they've got some funky retention design. i forgot what it said on the box but it was supposed to stay on the ratchet better or something. i didn't think it was even possible to "accidentally" remove a socket from a craftsman ratchet without pushing the release button or destroying both the socket and ratchet.
it almost looks like the die slipped durring manufacture and they were trying to sell them as "new and improved" rather than melt them down and start over. they disappeard pretty freaking quick after i bought my set. it hasnt really posed a problem. oddly enough, 1/2 inch drive and the extensions are normal. it's just 1/4 and 3/8 drive sockets.

crashbumper · Nov 16, 2009

I recently bought some with that same design.

10mm deep 1/4" drive 6 point.

superautobacs · Nov 16, 2009

Kobalt also offered this type of socket.

Here's the overview for the patent: Link

Apparently the appropriate ratchet that goes along with this design was never put in production. Patent overview can be seen here for the ratchet: Link

vjquan · Nov 16, 2009

superautobacs said:
Apparently the appropriate ratchet that goes along with this design was never put in production. Patent overview can be seen here for the ratchet: Link

Good thing. I can hear the cursing and see all the returns it would generate since it wouldn't be compatible with normal sockets.

G1GRANDEUR · Nov 16, 2009

they had that design for long time.

i guess 1st notch is to make socket go easier into the driver.

i also hate it. it does not work good with other kind of ratchets(non-locking). feel loose.

Fedwrench · Nov 16, 2009

I don't know about a redesigned ratchet for the double notch. I just thought is was cheaper to make than the standard scalloped area on each side. Unfortunately, that double notch or whatever you want to call it, has spread from Craftsman to other Danaher lines such as Armstrong.

Whenever, I can find used Cratsman sockets in common sizes for less than 50 cents a shot, without the supposedly improved double notch, I pick them up. :beer:

Rickster · Nov 16, 2009

I found those not to work as well as the ones with the ful divit carved out of them. The full divit models stay on the ratchet/extension better has been my experience.

Old Donn · Nov 16, 2009

Found a bunch of these on the clearance table at Sears today, mostly 3/8 drive. Take a look before you buy.

scottmlew · Nov 16, 2009

Does this have anything to do with "wobble plus" styles of extensions, where the first bump engages in wobble mode, and the second bump engages in locked mode?

Merkava_4 · Nov 16, 2009

I won't buy Craftsman sockets anymore since they've gone to that "double snippet" design or whatever you want to call it. :headshake

I don't want no damn "wobble plus" either. :headshake

Elroy · Nov 16, 2009

Elroy tells me this is an old subject and yes these sockets still ****:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21527

DHS · Nov 16, 2009

What I don't like about them is that I have a hard time aligning them up to snap on my socket rail. Other than that I like them. :headscrat

Need4racin · Nov 16, 2009

I don't mind them.

Elroy · Nov 16, 2009

They **** and they're a piece of $hit.

They're made from powder metal and the feature is just another example of a automated manufacturing operation designed solely to remove cost.

You like em, you use them. Elroy won't if at all possible.

philw · Nov 16, 2009

Elroy, how can you tell they are powdered metal? I'm guessing strength would be the main drawback of using powdered metal?
Maybe that is why Cman sockets are more prone to cracking?

Zrexxer · Dec 18, 2009

Elroy said:
They're made from powder metal

LOL, that's pretty rich, I'd like to see you prove that statement. Powder metallurgy tool steels are the very cutting edge, cream of the crop materials and are expensive beyond belief. If Craftsman is making sockets that way they are the bargain of the century.

More likely is that Craftsman sockets are being forged out of red hot chunks of steel just like they've been for a hundred years.

speed bump · Dec 18, 2009

Zrexxer said:
LOL, that's pretty rich, I'd like to see you prove that statement. Powder metallurgy tool steels are the very cutting edge, cream of the crop materials and are expensive beyond belief. If Craftsman is making sockets that way they are the bargain of the century.

More likely is that Craftsman sockets are being forged out of red hot chunks of steel just like they've been for a hundred years.

I would agree with that, although apparently powder metal parts can be done somewhat economically. I had this discussion with one of our ME professors who also happens to be a metalurgist who spent most of his time in grad school developing powder metallurgy techniques. His thought was that powder met sockets wouldn't be as good as a forging becuase you dont have the deformation assoicated with shaping the sockets. However, for parts where you want consistency all the way through such as turbine blades it kicks ***.

As far as the new detent design I like it with quick release ratchets because the sockets stay on almost no matter what. If you have a 10" extension with a deep socket then this stake pocket type it will stay your QR ratchet unlike the older design which often will fall off.

1stwarrior95 · Dec 18, 2009

DHS said:
What I don't like about them is that I have a hard time aligning them up to snap on my socket rail.

I agree with that! BS design IMHO.

Zrexxer · Dec 18, 2009

speed bump said:
I would agree with that, although apparently powder metal parts can be done somewhat economically.

Powder metallurgy is done economically all the time for automotive parts - but primarily for low-stress things like windshield wiper gearbox parts, etc.

Alloy and tool steels are another matter though. Crucible Particle Metallurgy is one of the leaders in the field, their website is fascinating to read through:

http://www.crucible.com/index.cfm

1stwarrior95 · Dec 18, 2009

Chevy LS motors use powdered metal rods.

tonydanzah · Dec 18, 2009

When you see one of those sockets broken, the inside surface does look like powder.

Zrexxer · Dec 18, 2009

When cast iron breaks it exhibits a brittle fracture surface too, that doesn't mean it's powder. You cannot determine powder metallurgy steels with the naked eye.

tonydanzah · Dec 18, 2009

that makes sense

rsanter · Dec 18, 2009

to my knowledge, the powder metal technology have seen a drop in price over the years. there are many more people making more stuff out of it than before.
they look like powder metal to me because I do not see the broaching marks that they used to have

bob

1stwarrior95 · Dec 18, 2009

Are all the newer C-man sockets made like this? Just thinkin about that cause Ihave a cracked 9/16deepwell that I gotta get replaced.
Regardless of what/how they're made, I don't care for the "double' square dr style. Seems like everytime I try to put on of those style sockets on a ratchet or rack I have to retry after I turn it 1/4 turn to line up the real drive shoulders.

jeepnut24 · Dec 19, 2009

I hadn't noticed it until tonight, but my new CMan deep sockets are like this. They don't fit right on my SO ratchet...

Elroy · Dec 22, 2009

Zrexxer said:
LOL, that's pretty rich, I'd like to see you prove that statement. Powder metallurgy tool steels are the very cutting edge, cream of the crop materials and are expensive beyond belief. If Craftsman is making sockets that way they are the bargain of the century.

More likely is that Craftsman sockets are being forged out of red hot chunks of steel just like they've been for a hundred years.

What's so "rich" about it?? Actually Elroy would venture to say more likely than not.

Notice the difference in these Craftsman sockets:

The upper row of sockets are recent production (with in the last ten years). These are clearly powder metal as witnessed by the bulging of the material on the cavity floor and the crisp edge at the parting line between tooling segments

The lower row of sockets are fully hot forged. These particular Craftsman sockets came from Elroy's Grandfather. He passed on over 30 years ago and were at least 20 years old when he checked out. These forged sockets were made at least 50 years ago.

As you can see here, New Britain had patent # 3,506,500 and #3,668,951 issue in the early 70's covering this powdered method. The hot forged sockets that Elroy pictured above were made well before this date.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZF...#v=onepage&q="socket wrench" "powder"&f=false

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3668951.pdf

There are other examples available but Danaher is not in the habit of revealing their business or manufacturing methods.

Elroy · Dec 22, 2009

As another example of the economical manufacturing enjoyed by powdered metallurgy, Elroy offers this recent example by Irwin:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...9-2&AID=10368321&cj=true&srccode=cii_13736960

Not a socket but still PM using the MIM method.

Scooterfish · Dec 22, 2009

Yep, most of my sockets are the Cmans from the 60s like your row 2. I filled in a few spots when Sears had the 1/2 off sale last spring, they stick out like a sore thumb.

Tool Pants · Dec 22, 2009

I saved this pic from somewhere. Probably from this board. I have also see this in my old Craftsman tool catalogs.

What is interesting is Naptional Hand tool Corporation. I have seen them as the assignee of other tool patents.

superautobacs · Dec 22, 2009

What's Elroy's reason for not wanting to use sockets made by PM?

Elroy · Dec 22, 2009

superautobacs said:
What's Elroy's reason for not wanting to use sockets made by PM?

I don't have a problem with the PM sockets . What I don't care for is that "stake deal" for the ball retainer pocket.

We had one of those sockets flat out stick on a ratchet a few years ago. It was stuck on there so bad we had to cut the socket off the ratchet. Never did really figure what the deal was other than that dam double pocket deal cause it was really stuck on there. It sucked and so did the socket and no Elroy didn't forget to press the release button.

superautobacs · Dec 22, 2009

Ahhh, gotcha. :beer:

TireTracks · Dec 22, 2009

I belive all of my sockets have that detent ball pocket thing. They seem to stay on the ratchet/extention just fine.

What I hate are the cheap sockets i had to use in metalshop, no detent at all. :headscrat

sk farmer · Apr 18, 2021

bumping an old thread.

there has been some discussion on why some cman sockets have the staked detents. i know there other threads but this is the only one i could readily find and all of the links seem to be broken.

i could use a refresher as well. help me out you masters of the google fu!

what's up with this craftsman socket design?

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