I went to Harbor Freight today...

Stuey · Aug 8, 2017

It was my first visit to HF in a long time. This was a different location, but it still had that HF smell to it.

My daughter didn't seem to mind, but it bothers me a little.

Anyways, I went to buy a new 20V Hercules drill, and a Hercules impact driver.

I have a call with their product team coming up, and I wanted some hands-on time first.

I was more than a little hesitant and critical in my preview post - http://toolguyd.com/harbor-freight-hercules-20v-cordless-tools/ - but I feel the need to understand these tools and how they're designed a bit more.

2 things surprised me.

First, the tools felt solid and welcoming, for lack of a better word.

Then I saw UL and OSHA markings on the info stickers. Really? I looked at a couple other power tools, and none had UL markings.

The prices of the battery packs seemed too low, given how much I know individual cells tend to retail for, and so I don't think they're quite the same cells as pro-level brands use in their battery packs.

I've got a slew of tests I'm going to throw at the tools and battery packs to see how they compare.

But given my quick in-store fondling of the Hercules tools, I've upgraded my underlying feeling from "hesitant" to "neutral." It might even be eager to test the tools out. Before stepping foot into the store, I wasn't the least bit looking forward to it.

The comparison for the drill will be Dewalt's $99 brushless drill kit. I haven't picked a competitor for the Hercules impact yet, but Dewalt's DCF885 impact driver and Milwaukee's holiday season impact driver 1-battery kit are in the top running.

I walked around and didn't see much else that interested me. Too bad. But I'm kind of hoping to see more in the light of these Hercules tools. There's room for another player in the game.

Well, if the tools are as good as the claims I've started to allow myself be open-minded about.

I stopped by Home Depot and picked up lots of drilling and driving accessories for testing.

Results will likely be on ToolGuyd, but I'll check back here to see if there's anything or any way you want to see the new tools tested and compared.

Codejack · Aug 8, 2017

Stuey said:
The comparison for the drill will be Dewalt's $99 brushless drill kit. I haven't picked a competitor for the Hercules impact yet, but Dewalt's DCF885 impact driver and Milwaukee's holiday season impact driver 1-battery kit are in the top running.

Why not test them all? The more info the better, up to a point

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say!

firworks · Aug 8, 2017

Stuey said:
It was my first visit to HF in a long time. This was a different location, but it still had that HF smell to it.

My daughter didn't seem to mind, but it bothers me a little.

Anyways, I went to buy a new 20V Hercules drill, and a Hercules impact driver.

I have a call with their product team coming up, and I wanted some hands-on time first.

I was more than a little hesitant and critical in my preview post - http://toolguyd.com/harbor-freight-hercules-20v-cordless-tools/ - but I feel the need to understand these tools and how they're designed a bit more.

2 things surprised me.

First, the tools felt solid and welcoming, for lack of a better word.

Then I saw UL and OSHA markings on the info stickers. Really? I looked at a couple other power tools, and none had UL markings.

The prices of the battery packs seemed too low, given how much I know individual cells tend to retail for, and so I don't think they're quite the same cells as pro-level brands use in their battery packs.

I've got a slew of tests I'm going to throw at the tools and battery packs to see how they compare.

But given my quick in-store fondling of the Hercules tools, I've upgraded my underlying feeling from "hesitant" to "neutral." It might even be eager to test the tools out. Before stepping foot into the store, I wasn't the least bit looking forward to it.

The comparison for the drill will be Dewalt's $99 brushless drill kit. I haven't picked a competitor for the Hercules impact yet, but Dewalt's DCF885 impact driver and Milwaukee's holiday season impact driver 1-battery kit are in the top running.

I walked around and didn't see much else that interested me. Too bad. But I'm kind of hoping to see more in the light of these Hercules tools. There's room for another player in the game.

Well, if the tools are as good as the claims I've started to allow myself be open-minded about.

I stopped by Home Depot and picked up lots of drilling and driving accessories for testing.

Results will likely be on ToolGuyd, but I'll check back here to see if there's anything or any way you want to see the new tools tested and compared.

I agree with you on the prices of the batteries. I am not sure I can even buy 5 18650 cells on Amazon for 19$. I'm planning to grab a few from HF to use on rebuilds of older Nicad drills.

Also when I went in and fondled the new Hercules and Bauer stuff, it seemed very nice. I almost fired on a kit just to take it apart and poke around inside, but I've wasted too much money recently on gear so I need to wait a bit before blowing money on that.

DFB · Aug 8, 2017

Should have took their bits too for your drilling and driving tests

jeejay · Aug 9, 2017

Stuey said:
- but I feel the need to understand these tools and how they're designed a bit more.

2 things surprised me...

But did you smell them?

shawndp · Aug 9, 2017

I played with the 1/2" impact instore and didn't didn't feel half bad. This is from someone who uses the M18 impact 6 days a week. For the price, it seems pretty good. The drill seems like what I would buy next as my 12v Dewalt is toast...

jdlong · Aug 9, 2017

As far as my local store is concerned, it took several months before I got an XT air impact at coupon price as they seemed to fly out the store when the coupons came out. I am seeing the same pattern with the new XT cordless ratchet.

I credit HF for their fire sale ads. They get wife approval as the read like mall madness flyers. :lol:

loudog212 · Aug 9, 2017

I bought the Hercules angle grinder yesterday and when I got to the register the cashier asked

"Would you like the extended warranty. These are new products and we don't know what kind of problems they have yet or if they'll last"

Tallpilot · Aug 9, 2017

I just picked up the Hercules angle grinder too. I didn't get the extended warranty. After the AVE teardown it looked good enough for my purposes. If it breaks I will go get a Dewalt.

itsvegas · Aug 9, 2017

loudog212 said:
I bought the Hercules angle grinder yesterday and when I got to the register the cashier asked

"Would you like the extended warranty. These are new products and we don't know what kind of problems they have yet or if they'll last"

damn, what a pitch!

jgromada · Aug 9, 2017

I have seen these too, but I question HFT selection of a price point for these Hercules products. I routinely see DeWalt or Milwaukee drill/driver combinations for less than they want for a similar Hercules combination.

But its nice to see HFT step up their game. Competition is always a good thing. I only ever bought one HFT corded tool and that was a corded impact wrench (pre-Earthquake) and it is horrible, virtually useless.

What I don't understand from HFT is their myriad of cordless batteries and versions. New tools from both their Hercules & Bauer brands and they both use different form factor batteries.

kythri · Aug 9, 2017

Stuey said:
I have a call with their product team coming up, and I wanted some hands-on time first.

I'm well-invested in Ryobi's 18V ONE+ lineup, so I'm not the target audience for any HF power tools, but you should mention to them that they're not doing themselves any favor by creating multiple brand names with multiple different battery types/fitments.

They would have been far better served by using a common battery platform across their entire line-up.

cheechi · Aug 9, 2017

UL has a very high turnaround so most of the time 'lesser' brands go for ETL instead. Nice to see OSHA on any of their products actually.

Loscaldazar · Aug 9, 2017

According to someone else who took apart the batteries (and took photos), the batteries are Samsung cells, Stuey.

jd_1138 · Aug 9, 2017

jgromada said:
I have seen these too, but I question HFT selection of a price point for these Hercules products. I routinely see DeWalt or Milwaukee drill/driver combinations for less than they want for a similar Hercules combination.

But its nice to see HFT step up their game. Competition is always a good thing. I only ever bought one HFT corded tool and that was a corded impact wrench (pre-Earthquake) and it is horrible, virtually useless.

What I don't understand from HFT is their myriad of cordless batteries and versions. New tools from both their Hercules & Bauer brands and they both use different form factor batteries.

I imagine their myriad of different battery platforms stems from trying to buy each tool for the cheapest possible amount? If they had a common battery platform that would be a selling point, though.

I own the regular drill and light 18 volt ni-cad set. For $20, it's a steal. Definitely OK for a homeowner/DIYer. I wonder how their new better tools will hold up under pro use? If they will take the beatings and droppings?

jonesg · Aug 9, 2017

cheechi said:
UL has a very high turnaround so most of the time 'lesser' brands go for ETL instead. Nice to see OSHA on any of their products actually.

My understanding is if you don't see UL label on the exterior the marking is done inside the case and its ETL.

ETL is cheaper, not as thorough or somethin like that.

Loscaldazar · Aug 10, 2017

jonesg said:
My understanding is if you don't see UL label on the exterior the marking is done inside the case and its ETL.

ETL is cheaper, not as thorough or somethin like that.

No, there are many other possible labs that could be testing the product for safety, not just UL or ETL (although, these are two of most well known labs). CSA, BSI, and VDE are a few other well known labs too. Each lab has its pros and cons, with some labs being more familiar and better at certain product categories than others.

They are also testing for safety, not "quality" or "performance" like some tend to think. That is, is the device designed in such a way that it won't burn down a house or electrocute someone?

ETL tests to the same standards as UL (literally, they use the standards published by UL in their own testing), they just tend to be cheaper and have a quicker turn-around than UL (which can be backed up MONTHS at some points). Cheaper products tend to go with ETL because they are a generally less expensive lab.

OSHA and the government consider an ETL label and a UL label interchangeable.

Here are a few well known companies that have used/still do use ETL for some/all of their products:
• Apple Computer
• AT&T
• Conair Corp.
• Dell Computer
• Electrolux
• Ericsson
• General Electric
• Panasonic
• Philips
• Pioneer

This is just a few. Some big names use ETL too, not just cheap import companies.

No one really looked down upon ETL until AVE starting harping about how cheap tools always have ETL marks, and people took that to mean that ETL does **** work. They're a 100+ year old safety lab- they know what they are doing.

firworks · Aug 10, 2017

Loscaldazar said:
No one really looked down upon ETL until AVE starting harping about how cheap tools always have ETL marks, and people took that to mean that ETL does **** work. They're a 100+ year old safety lab- they know what they are doing.

A common trend it seems...

Stuey · Aug 10, 2017

Codejack said:
Why not test them all? The more info the better, up to a point

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say!

Limited time and resources unfortunately.

DFB said:
Should have took their bits too for your drilling and driving tests

Eew. But seriously, I went out and bought accessories that I have prior familiarity with.

jeejay said:
But did you smell them?

The entire store smelled pretty bad.

kythri said:
I'm well-invested in Ryobi's 18V ONE+ lineup, so I'm not the target audience for any HF power tools, but you should mention to them that they're not doing themselves any favor by creating multiple brand names with multiple different battery types/fitments.

They would have been far better served by using a common battery platform across their entire line-up.

This is something I'm wondering too.

But it's also something that other brands do.

Loscaldazar said:
According to someone else who took apart the batteries (and took photos), the batteries are Samsung cells, Stuey.

That doesn't necessarily mean much. Samsung has a range of battery cells and cell families.

You won't find the same battery cells in Black & Decker and Dewalt battery packs.

jonesg said:
My understanding is if you don't see UL label on the exterior the marking is done inside the case and its ETL.

ETL is cheaper, not as thorough or somethin like that.

Wouldn't the marks still need to be visible? I checked a few tools at the store, and there were no test lab markings of either kind.

Skin · Aug 10, 2017

Stuey said:
That doesn't necessarily mean much. Samsung has a range of battery cells and cell families.

You won't find the same battery cells in Black & Decker and Dewalt battery packs.

I don't totally agree. They mark up individual products a ton intentionally. There is a reason a kit of any brand of your choosing costs, say, $100 for tool, battery, and charger, and then an individual battery is $60 on a neighboring shelf. Its the old 'you paid the smaller entrance fee, time to fleece you on addons'. HF simply isn't doing it to the extent that the big brands do, that's all.

I doubt these companies spend more than a few dollars to make a battery pack (prior to overhead and markups of course...but still). Also bear in mind HF is selling direct which chops out some markup as opposed to Milwaukee having to go through a distributor or two before it ends up in a Home Depot or ACE; and everyone needs a piece of the pie.

Stuey · Aug 10, 2017

Skin said:
I don't totally agree. They mark up individual products a ton intentionally. There is a reason a kit of any brand of your choosing costs, say, $100 for tool, battery, and charger, and then an individual battery is $60 on a neighboring shelf. Its the old 'you paid the smaller entrance fee, time to fleece you on addons'. HF simply isn't doing it to the extent that the big brands do, that's all.

I doubt these companies spend more than a few dollars to make a battery pack (prior to overhead and markups of course...but still). Also bear in mind HF is selling direct which chops out some markup as opposed to Milwaukee having to go through a distributor or two before it ends up in a Home Depot or ACE; and everyone needs a piece of the pie.

Kits are like combos you find at fast food restaurants, and some very aggressively priced ones are like the "4 for $4" promo combos.

A drink, sandwich, and fries, might be $5. Buying them separately is $6.50. Most power tool kits are the same way.

With aggressively-priced kits and fast food promos, the sum of the individual components might be appreciable higher.

But regardless, battery packs are NOT the same. There are different grades of cells, different protective measures, different levels of quality in the other components.

You might not see a big difference if you use lower-rated cells to power a compact drill or impact driver. But an angle grinder? Circular saw? Recip saw? You're going to see differences.

I test battery packs every now and then for capacity, using an electronic load. To measure the peak output of pro brands' higher capacity battery packs? I'll need a higher wattage load. With FlexVolt and High Demand battery packs? I'll need an even higher class of load, in the at least 1200W+ ,and multi-thousands of dollars price range.

They might not look different on the outside, they might not even look very different on the inside, but there are reasons why some battery packs are $40, others $80, and others $150.

Yes, Harbor Freight being a direct factor-to-store retailer helps to lower costs. But that's not why HF tools are inexpensive. Many, if not most, are built cheap and thus priced cheap.

These new Hercules tools seem to be different, and so I'm approaching them with an open mind to see what they can do and how they can compare.

But $30 for a 2.5Ah pack and $50 for a 5.0Ah pack?

What's the wholesale price on Samsung's highest-end power tool battery cells? From what I've seen, not anywhere low enough for HF to be able to build 2.5Ah and 5.0Ah packs at those prices. I could be wrong. But since HF doesn't (yet?) have heavy duty Hercules tools, only compact packs, they could get away with lower-rated lower-priced cells.

Loscaldazar · Aug 10, 2017

They're Samsung IRN 18650-25R. Isn't that what Milwaukee has used in a fair amount of their batteries too?

They're $4-$5 each retail, but with just 500 the price drops to almost half that. When ordering in the thousands, I bet they get an even better price.

Stuey · Aug 10, 2017

Loscaldazar said:
They're Samsung IRN 18650-25R. Isn't that what Milwaukee has used in a fair amount of their batteries too?

They're $4-$5 each retail, but with just 500 the price drops to almost half that. When ordering in the thousands, I bet they get an even better price.

The last I checked, 3-1/2 years ago (http://toolguyd.com/power-tool-brands-dont-make-their-own-batteries/), I said:

Bosch, Milwaukee, and Hitachi all use Samsung INR cells, Dewalt uses what appear to be Sanyo cells, and Makita uses what appear to be Sony cells. I haven’t taken a look at other battery packs yet.

Those cells are rated to 20A, and is the best available at the size.

I'm open to being wrong. =)

I have to see what electronics are put into the packs. It's possible some safety features are in the tool, lowering the cost of batteries, but I have to see.

Kobalt's battery packs are ridiculously low-priced - I need to take some of those apart too to see if there are any clear reasons why.

JohnDeere1 · Aug 10, 2017

I'd take my old Makita lxt drill and impact set anyday over the Hercules but that's just the tool snob in me they didn't look bad but while playing with them in the store I didn't really like the noise they made when you let off the trigger they sounded like metal to metal smacking. Dewaults make the same sound to me but Makita and Milwaukee don't but I'm sure it's nothing just the stopping mechanism.

cherrybomb · Aug 13, 2017

Sales pitch,Don't know if they will last!Reinforces why I don't go there.

ChrisLS8 · Aug 13, 2017

cherrybomb said:
Sales pitch,Don't know if they will last!Reinforces why I don't go there.

Good argument

zendriver · Aug 13, 2017

cherrybomb said:
Sales pitch,Don't know if they will last!Reinforces why I don't go there.

The employee sound's like either stupid, or a real *******, to say something like that, IMO, even if it could be true.

HF makes good money on extended warranties, so no doubt, their store Manager, probably would want them to do a different "pitch".

Probably why they are working a minimum wage part time job, that they might hate enough to bite the hand that feeds them, even if meager portions.

I stopped at the FT Wayne store recently and the help was quite enthusiastic, which is what they are hired to be.

ScottsGT · Aug 13, 2017

Anyone notice the Herculies drill comes with a Jacobs chuck?

jonesg · Aug 13, 2017

zendriver said:
The employee sound's like either stupid, or a real *******, to say something like that, IMO, even if it could be true.

HF makes good money on extended warranties, so no doubt, their store Manager, probably would want them to do a different "pitch".

Probably why they are working a minimum wage part time job, that they might hate enough to bite the hand that feeds them, even if meager portions.

I stopped at the FT Wayne store recently and the help was quite enthusiastic, which is what they are hired to be.

I prefer the ones who let the truth slip out over enthusiasm.
I mean...they DON'T know yet.
Meantime I'll stay back from the bleeding edge of HF technology.

jonesg · Aug 13, 2017

Stuey said:
Kits are like combos you find at fast food restaurants, and some very aggressively priced ones are like the "4 for $4" promo combos.

A drink, sandwich, and fries, might be $5. Buying them separately is $6.50. Most power tool kits are the same way.

With aggressively-priced kits and fast food promos, the sum of the individual components might be appreciable higher.

But regardless, battery packs are NOT the same. There are different grades of cells, different protective measures, different levels of quality in the other components.

You might not see a big difference if you use lower-rated cells to power a compact drill or impact driver. But an angle grinder? Circular saw? Recip saw? You're going to see differences.

I test battery packs every now and then for capacity, using an electronic load. To measure the peak output of pro brands' higher capacity battery packs? I'll need a higher wattage load. With FlexVolt and High Demand battery packs? I'll need an even higher class of load, in the at least 1200W+ ,and multi-thousands of dollars price range.

They might not look different on the outside, they might not even look very different on the inside, but there are reasons why some battery packs are $40, others $80, and others $150.

Yes, Harbor Freight being a direct factor-to-store retailer helps to lower costs. But that's not why HF tools are inexpensive. Many, if not most, are built cheap and thus priced cheap.

These new Hercules tools seem to be different, and so I'm approaching them with an open mind to see what they can do and how they can compare.

But $30 for a 2.5Ah pack and $50 for a 5.0Ah pack?

What's the wholesale price on Samsung's highest-end power tool battery cells? From what I've seen, not anywhere low enough for HF to be able to build 2.5Ah and 5.0Ah packs at those prices. I could be wrong. But since HF doesn't (yet?) have heavy duty Hercules tools, only compact packs, they could get away with lower-rated lower-priced cells.

I believe better packs are made from balanced cells.
It takes time to test and rate cells, even if they're all from the same mfger.
I don't know what Milwaukee does but their packs are worth the money.

jonesg · Aug 13, 2017

ScottsGT said:
Anyone notice the Herculies drill comes with a Jacobs chuck?

Is it real, they probably sell Jacobs ladders too.! :bounce:

Stuey · Aug 13, 2017

ScottsGT said:
Anyone notice the Herculies drill comes with a Jacobs chuck?

Yes. But Jacobs quality can vary a lot these days.

jonesg said:
I believe better packs are made from balanced cells.
It takes time to test and rate cells, even if they're all from the same mfger.
I don't know what Milwaukee does but their packs are worth the money.

Hmm, that could be true, or they could be made from higher-binned cells? I don't have that much insight into how things are done at battery manufacturers.

driftpin · Aug 13, 2017

Off-track, 'Jacob's Ladder,' with Tim Robbins and Elizabeth Pena (RIP) is one of my favorite movies.

I am OK w/my Craftsman 19.2 V Li ion set, I don't use them daily, so they last longer. I have a lot of the various tools, and the batteries in different sizes. They stop -dead- when they are expended, and time for a charge. They charge quickly, however, in my experience.

jonesg said:
Is it real, they probably sell Jacobs ladders too.!

jeejay · Aug 17, 2017

Stuey said:
The entire store smelled pretty bad.

But did the smell follow you home?

I went to Harbor Freight today...

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