Vintage breaker bars with hole in the end

earthmover1980 · Dec 20, 2017

I have been collecting vintage tools for a long time. I have several different vintage 1/2 drive breaker bars with the cross hole in the end for a slide bar. My two vintage SK breaker bars even have a detent ball. Like many pieces of antique sets, the little cross bars are nowhere to be found anymore. These could be made easy out of mild steel round stock, but would bend easily. Where could I find replacement bars, or how could they be made tough enough not to bend, and resist corrosion. Craftsman, SK, and Williams breaker bars all have a cross hole in the end for a T bar. Suggestions people?

Farmall450 · Dec 20, 2017

I think you might need a machinist to turn down some tool steel for you. I doubt they'd fit a 3/8 extension or something available commercially.

How hard are you going to be using it? Would a cold rolled piece of round bend? I figure you'd use the bar itself for breaking it.

four.cycle · Dec 20, 2017

If you find some, let me know. I'll take about half a dozen. :thumbup:

If you can find 1/4" drive (preferably with detent balls) I'll take a dozen. :lol:

Rileysan · Dec 20, 2017

Up until two weeks ago, I had found exactly (1) breaker bar with the original cross bar. That I found 3 breaker bars (1/4", 3/8", 1/2") complete with cross bars in one tool box on that day is a Christmas miracle!

I like the idea of someone making them, but I don't know if tool steel round stock goes that small. Turning down larger stock would be expensive and time-consuming, and using small diameter round stock made from mild steel would be pointless.

Any ideas?

four.cycle · Dec 21, 2017

How much would you be willing to pay for one?

1/4" drive?
3/8" drive?
1/2" drive?

Serious question.

We managed to get some pliers made to order. Why not cross bars? Not nearly as much tooling involved (especially if they don't have detent balls.)

I'm not sure what the diameters are... I think the little 1/4 drive models use a 5/32" bar.
The hole in the end of one of my old 1/2" breakers appears to be 13/32".

Ole Slewfoot · Dec 21, 2017

Grainger sells drill rod from 1/16" to 2" in water, air, and oil hard alloys.
Fastenall has less selection, but also has letter sizes

Farmall450 · Dec 21, 2017

four.cycle said:
How much would you be willing to pay for one?

1/4" drive?
3/8" drive?
1/2" drive?

Serious question.

We managed to get some pliers made to order. Why not cross bars? Not nearly as much tooling involved (especially if they don't have detent balls.)

I'm not sure what the diameters are... I think the little 1/4 drive models use a 5/32" bar.
The hole in the end of one of my old 1/2" breakers appears to be 13/32".

I'd ask Kevin on here. He made some vise jaws that turned out very well for me, at a fair price. :thumbup:

four.cycle · Dec 21, 2017

^ well... the cross bars were hardened tool steel, and a lot of them were plated and polished.
it's no so much "machining" as it would be hardening the rods and doing the plating operation.

putting a detent ball in one end is another can of worms.

Bluevista · Dec 21, 2017

I never even thought about what that hole was for...and I've been using the thing for over 40 years.

It's a mid 1930's Snap-On 19" No.10-C "Nutspinner" breaker bar and it has a 7/16" hole for a "Speed T Handle" and a 1/2" drive recess in the end.
The T handle didn't come with the bar originally since you could use a 1/2" sliding bar drive in the end and it works the same way I guess.
The No.11 10" breaker bar without the 1/2" drive recess is "furnished" with the bar/T handle. It looks like a plain rod about 6-8 inches long with the ends slightly chamfered, no detent.

larry_g · Dec 21, 2017

Ole Slewfoot said:
Grainger sells drill rod from 1/16" to 2" in water, air, and oil hard alloys.
Fastenall has less selection, but also has letter sizes

X2, drill rod is the material you want and in most any size you can get a drill bit.

lg
no neat sig line

larry_g · Dec 21, 2017

Rileysan said:
Up until two weeks ago, I had found exactly (1) breaker bar with the original cross bar. That I found 3 breaker bars (1/4", 3/8", 1/2") complete with cross bars in one tool box on that day is a Christmas miracle!

I like the idea of someone making them, but I don't know if tool steel round stock goes that small. Turning down larger stock would be expensive and time-consuming, and using small diameter round stock made from mild steel would be pointless.

Any ideas?

Could you post up a picture of what the cross bars are? Do they have a detent ball in them, just an up set end, or nothing but a good slip fit. In addition to drill rod one could use a n ejector pin, http://www.pcs-company.com/viewcategory/Mold-Components/Part-Ejection/Ejector-Pins If you needed a head on it. Other stock is also in the machine shop that is suitable for the raw stock, it just depends on the end detail.

lg
no neat sig line

Provincial · Dec 21, 2017

Drill rod tends to be brittle. Think of how a drill bit shatters when caught in a bind.

Many wrenches and square drive tools were (are) made of chrome vanadium steel, which is "spring steel." It may not be heat treated as high as a spring, but it certainly has spring-back. Spring steel is available as round rod in many sizes, so not much would have to be ground off to prepare it for chrome plating by centerless grinding. It is usually sold in a temper that allows bending into coils to make springs, which are heat treated after forming. Cross-bars would probably be heat treated before grinding, adding ball detents, and plating. Making the ball detents would be the most demanding part of the fabrication, and that would not be difficult with simple tooling if the temper of the steel allowed swedging the ball retaining swedge.

The biggest problem is that there was no standard among the manufacturers about diameter and length for the cross-bars.

Ole Slewfoot · Dec 21, 2017

I imagine you could quench it less than you would a drill bit.

There are also a few other styles, here we have a Duro Chrome chrome free unit with a handy square hole.

And Plomb apparently thought it might be easier to put the detent ball in the tool rather than the cross bar. There is no branding on my cross bar, although it came with Plomb tools, and fits this extension, I have another which it won't click into. I guess 'the no standards thing messing with me.

I think its pretty clear I won't be applying anywhere near the force I can get out of the breaker bar with the pin handle.

four.cycle · Dec 21, 2017

Provincial said:
Making the ball detents would be the most demanding part of the fabrication, and that would not be difficult with simple tooling if the temper of the steel allowed swedging the ball retaining swedge.

The biggest problem is that there was no standard among the manufacturers about diameter and length for the cross-bars.

^ Absolutely correct.

Which means: if somebody was going to take it upon themselves to fabricate such an item, it would be more practical to make compromises on length and diameter, and eliminate the ball detent.
Meaning: some would end up with loose-fitting rods, and you'd have to keep your hand on it so it didn't slip out of place and fall on the floor (or down in behind between the transmission and the crossmember.)

Private Lugnutz · Dec 21, 2017

earthmover1980 said:
Where could I find replacement bars... Suggestions people?

If you have any good flea markets in your area, that's the best source. Typically found loose in the top tray or bottom of old toolboxes, even when there are no drive tools/handles in the same box. I pick orphans up automatically whenever I see one, whether or not I have a particular need for it at the moment, stockpiling them for when I do - and note that some extensions were also cross-drilled for a cross-bar. (See thumbnail 1 below for my current supply.) Precisely because the cross bar (or "tommy bar", as our British mates call it) is, as you have come to understand, almost always missing when you find a vintage flex/hinge handle (colloquially, "breaker bar") or a vintage extension that has a cross-bar provision, or an old socket set or partial socket set with cross-drilled flex handles and extensions.

A few of us here on GJ (d42jeep, User name already in use, gpw_42, and Tin Medic) are part of a small WWII collecting group and the cross bar is actually specified as a separate item for several kits we collect. As Provincial astutely alluded to, there was no industry standard in terms of diameter, even for tools of the same drive size. Consequently, they are interchangeable across brands only to a certain extent. The diameter diversity actually bit the Ordnance Dept in the **** during the war, because they specified 1/2" diameter, which only fits a few hinge handles. As a source of some wonder and consternation for us at one time, we did a deep dive on it. I did some catalog research (book approach) and Tin Medic made a chart (see thumbnail 2) from collected examples (empirical approach). Not sure the chart was ever updated, but between that and my summary below, sampling a smattering of major mfgrs, it's fairly representative of the specs to be aware of, at least in the 1940's.

SUMMARY:

In the 1930 OTC catalog, the cross bar doesn't even have its own part number. It's shown with the hinged handle and comes with the hinged handle. And by 1947, that hadn't changed one bit. It's evident that OTC was not a believer in turning extensions with anything but a ratchet. Williams was the same - with the bar advertised and sold to do exclusive service with the hinged handle (S-42) - but at least it had its own part number (S-42B). Others had the same scheme, including SK, New Britain, Cornwell, and Truth.

The Mfgrs I could identify that also cross-drilled their extensions were Duro, Bonney, Blackhawk, Herbrand, and Plomb.

Here's what I noted for cross-bars in 1/2-inch drive sets in the catalogs:

SK:
41650 (used with 17" 41653 hinged handle only) - 10" x 9/16" diam.
40250 (used with 10-/12" 40253 hinged handle only) - 10-1/2 x 3/8" diam.

Williams:
S-42B (used with S-40, -41, and -42 hinged handles only) - 9" x 7/16" diam.

Plomb:
5466PH (used with hinged handle and extensions) - 11-1/2" x 1/2" diam.

Duro-Chrome:
668D (used with hinged handle and extensions) - 9" x 3/8" diam.

Bonney:
4092 (used with hinged handle and extensions) - 8" long. Diameter not provided in catalog, but it's 3/8" and that's backed up by period documentation and Tin's chart.

Herbrand:
S-33 (used with hinged handle and extensions) - 11" long. Diameter not provided in catalog.

New Britain:
NS-31 (used with NS-56, -57, and -58 hinged handles only) - 10" long. Diameter not provided in catalog, and I don't have one, but the holes in my NB pieces are 3/8".

Blackhawk:
49986 (used with hinged handle and extensions) - 11" x 7/16" diam.

d42jeep · Dec 21, 2017

Those of us collecting WW2 toolsets are always on the lookout for crossbars at flea markets and estate/garage sales because they were specified to be included in our toolsets. Many times they were included with the flex handles and there were many different diameters and lengths depending on manufacturers. GJ member Tin Medic has a spreadsheet specifying which WW2 1/2" drive flex handles used which crossbars. Hopefully he'll see this thread and pass it along. Here is a Duro and unmarked crossbar.
-Don

Private Lugnutz · Dec 21, 2017

We x-posted Don. I just did a little more elaborate summary and posted the chart in the post just above yours.

d42jeep · Dec 21, 2017

We seem to cross post a lot for some reason, and yours are always better! :bowdown:

Here are a few more crossbar pictures.
-Don

Private Lugnutz · Dec 21, 2017

d42jeep said:
We seem to cross post a lot for some reason, and yours are always better!

Nah. Just longer. :lol:

As for x-posting, it's even weirder since we're in different time zones! I was up early and you were up late!

MShaw · Dec 21, 2017

Here is what I have. A 1/4" drive SK breaker with the pin. No detents but one end is Knurled so that it won't pass thru. Bought new in about 1960 if my memory is correct. Also a Proto 3/8" drive extension with the cross hole that I bought used in the 1950s

Oldtuleguy · Dec 21, 2017

I have used phillips screw driver shanks to make some. Seemed to work ok.

four.cycle · Dec 21, 2017

thanks for the rundown, Private Lugnutz.
the details in your post make it evident that entertaining thoughts of gearing up to produce replacement cross-bars would be folly, considering the differences in diameters and lengths between different manufacturers.

FTR: Indestro shows a model #3210 cross bar (for their 1/2" drive breakers) in the 1935, 1948, and 1959 catalogs. They don't show diameter or length.

leg17 · Dec 21, 2017

Drill bits are NOT made from drill rod.

Drill rod comes in various alloys, most of which can be easily hardened.
Drill rod comes in hundreds of sizes, especially in the range for these bars.

They need not be too hard else they will break.
Just tough enough to hold up, mostly for cosmetic reasons.

Commercial ones are probably some mid-carbon alloy, heat-treated to somewhere around 45-50 Rc or even softer, then polished and plated.

Bigwheels · Dec 21, 2017

Wow ive been throwing them in my scrap pile for years now im going to have to dig them out and pair them up thanks for all the great info!

rlitman · Dec 21, 2017

Oldtuleguy said:
I have used phillips screw driver shanks to make some. Seemed to work ok.

I keep messed up screwdrivers around to make things out of. They're made from some pretty tough steel. If the diameter works for your purposes, that can be a good choice.

I've also used the shanks of long grade 8 bolts for stuff like this.

Oldtuleguy · Dec 21, 2017

Ya the unthreaded part of the bolt is good.

d42jeep · Dec 21, 2017

Here are some 1/4" drive flex handles with crossbars along with the 1/2" drive Duro bars I posted above. The 1/4" are from left to right: Duro/D-I, Walden and S-K.
-Don

B.Boru · Dec 21, 2017

B.Boru · Dec 21, 2017

tin medic · Dec 21, 2017

I will post up the different cross-bars and an updated chart, once I remember what computer it's on.

rmsg0040 · Dec 21, 2017

Not sure but I think they are called tommy bars. I remember having a socket set, it had a breaker bar as well as the tommy bar that was separate for it, but I sold the set.

B.Boru · Dec 21, 2017

B.Boru · Dec 21, 2017

Oldtuleguy · Dec 21, 2017

Snap on m10 and plomb p34. These came with bars, don't know if original....I think plomb one is.

tin medic · Dec 21, 2017

Manufacturers weren't even consistent in their own lines, some had multiple diameter cross bars for the same item.

earthmover1980 · Dec 21, 2017

Gosh, I really thought I was on my own wanting to obtain a cross bar for my breaker bars. Guess not! I really can't believe that the cross bars can actually be found! These vintage us made tools are out there and it just amazes me at the quality and attention to detail spent during this bygone era. I really enjoy the knowledge that is shared here. I've made some awesome garage sale and flea market finds, but never found the cross bars. I have a 41653 SK, early (9/16 hole), and one with a (7/16 hole), as well as Craftsman ones, that I might just make my own for. Dad has a Williams
s-41a, I might also make one for. Thanks y'all! :rocker:

Private Lugnutz · Dec 22, 2017

If you're talking about user tools, not collectibles, another alternative (to finding actual vintage cross-bars, or to making your own cross-bars out of modern stock steel) is to lop off the female business end of a long extension or the hinge head on a bar. At $1 or so a piece at a flea market, it's a cheap and readily accessible option. That's what they did in a pinch back in the day, and I'm not at all ashamed to say it still gets done in a pinch today!

All 1/4-inch drive handles and some 3/8-inch drive handles will fit most 1/2-inch drive handle cross-bar holes. I have slid the drive head on a 3/8-inch sliding tee handle all the way to one side and used it as a cross-bar in a 1/2-inch drive hinge handle on more than one occasion. Same with an extension. The bell on the female end actually helps keep it in the hole.

d42jeep · Dec 22, 2017

Although with S-K 1/4" crossbars being a unique tool with one knurled end, a look in the '43 catalog makes it look as if they were just using the bar from the sliding T as the crossbars in the larger sizes.
-Don

paulm12 · Dec 22, 2017

Thanks all, especially Don and Lugz, for the lesson. I had no idea I just bought another liability for $0.50 (see pic). Now I need the cross bar. Ugh !!!

Private Lugnutz · Dec 22, 2017

d42jeep said:
Although with S-K 1/4" crossbars being a unique tool with one knurled end, a look in the '43 catalog makes it look as if they were just using the bar from the sliding T as the crossbars in the larger sizes.

I've seen the same thing with a couple other mfgrs, Don. Trying to remember who. Makes total sense. And they really do serve as a good make-shift cross-bar when you don't have one.

Ironically, I just found a near-complete Long C Craftsman (H) set at the flea market today. Metal case with leather handle. Ratchet, speeder and two extensions. Missing a bunch of sockets. Also missing the hinge handle ("breaker bar"). The ironic part? The cross bar was in the case! And, there isn’t any other handle that takes the cross-bar. Nothing else was cross-drilled by New Britain. So, not only is the cross-bar not missing (unusual in itself) - it's excess (at the moment)! HAHA! That is definitely a first for me.

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Vintage breaker bars with hole in the end

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