My small but growing DBE wrench collection

Private Lugnutz · Mar 24, 2018

Found this DBE at the flea market this morning.

The only thing I can find on the "PC No. 23945" model number is from public auctions, including lot No. 311 in this old Wrenching News Burkey collection auction, linked here, lot No. CB072 in the 2012 Mid-Summer Wrench Auction at the Cosgrove Institute in Iowa, linked here, and lot No. 032 at the St Charles, Mo. Lions Club Fall antique wrench auction, linked here. No maker or application identified in any of the auctions.

No clue on the "HE" monograph.

Outlawmws · Mar 24, 2018

Lugz, is that thing brass/bronze? Hard to tell in the pic.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 24, 2018

It's steel. Cast, I think. It's about 4" long and 3/8" thick (not at the raised panel). The openings are 31/32 (perhaps a crude 15/16) and 15/32 (perhaps a crude 7/16) on my calipers.

Farmer J. · Mar 25, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
It's steel. Cast, I think. It's about 4" long and 3/8" thick (not at the raised panel). The openings are 31/32 (perhaps a crude 15/16) and 15/32 (perhaps a crude 7/16) on my calipers.

Maybe it's another of those made to turn on the gas powered headlights.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 25, 2018

Found this interesting Herbrand at the flea market this morning. Model No. 6923 3/8 x 7/16 "Ultra Box" paneled dwarfie with 15* angle heads. If it had the underline script logo it would be 1941. The block letter logo and the "9445" marking - which is an AISI number for a Manganese Alloy, are wartime tells. From War Production Board (WPB) Order E-6, we know that the 9400 series steel was approved in June 1943 so this wrench can be further date to mid-war. The "VAN-CHROME" branding is usually absent on these Ultra Boxes, but we have seen it on some other wartime tools.

BlueBomber · Mar 25, 2018

Nicely found and nicely explained, Lugz.

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BlueBomber · Apr 13, 2018

Wow, this thread has really tapered off! I know I've been occasionally hunting for DBEs on Ebay, but not finding anything I have to have. No sales to speak of near me, either. Anyone have anything new or unusual?

Or, does anyone have a collection or even a good story to share about the round-tipped wonders?

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Rileysan · Apr 14, 2018

Jim C. said:
I've been working on completing the Craftsman 26 piece metric tool set as described and depicted in the 1960 Craftsman hand tool catalog. The DOE and DBE wrenches are proving to be harder to find than I thought they'd be. Anyway, I recently found three of the six DBE wrenches.

Jim C.

Vintage USA made metric tools are like hens teeth to find. And considering how plentiful Craftsman tools from that era are, it should give you an idea what you're up against.

I could piece together most of that set except for the sockets - which I have had little luck finding. The DBE wrenches are the hardest to find, imo, and if not for one lucky source, I'd have none.

As an aside, I think your quest deserves its own thread. Best of luck!

Brian

twertsy · Apr 14, 2018

Added a few today.

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Username already in use · Apr 14, 2018

That Bonney Loc-Rite is a pretty nice find. As is the wartime? Bonney 2894B. Is that a Wartime BluePoint as well?
:thumbup:

Provincial · Apr 15, 2018

Here are some Plomb DBE's I found recently. The pebble was painted red, probably for owner identification. The two others are "Made in USA" marked.

BlueBomber · Apr 15, 2018

Matt XYZ posted a wartime Barcalo Buffalo DBE on the 2018 Garage sale thread here.

Our wartime SME, Private Lugnutz, posted a brief dissertation on wrench varieties that I wanted to capture for DBE posterity here

Thanks to both!

Private Lugnutz · Apr 15, 2018

I don't know about expertise, but I have studied the DBE patterns, the specifications for which were the subject of some hot debate among WWII collectors. I even created some diagrams to better illustrate the different geometries at work with offset vs. angled patterns. The Barcalo and Vlchek hybrids are unique. I'm off to Ft Benning for the week, but I'll post the diagrams with examples when I return. In the meantime, mattXYZ posted a good view of the Barcalo on its side, showing the slight offset, here.

WarrenJ · Apr 16, 2018

Default Re: 2018 Garage Sale Thread

Click image for larger version Name: IMG_1163.JPG Views: 0 Size: 76.7 KB ID: 757720 Top to bottom: Plumb WF 82, Barcalo 3/4-5/8, Lectrolite 3004 3/4-25/32, Forged No. 915 USA 13/16-7/8

Click image for larger version Name: IMG_1164.JPG Views: 0 Size: 91.5 KB ID: 757721 Top to Bottom: Lectrolite 3005 13/16-7/8, Dunlap 3/4-25/32, Barcalo 9/16-1/2, Made in USA 3/4-25/32, S-K M-2022 5/8-11/16 (has A U stamped on one end)

Also a CMAN =V= 5/8-3/4.
All for $11.00

Sam'sAutoParts · Apr 24, 2018

Been a long time since I added any DBE. Found these at the flea on Monday.

L to Right
Little Williams
Bridgeport (now I have 2 out of the set of??)
2 sears Japan
Craftsman (i don’t intentionally buy the these anymore, yet they keep accumulating)
Barcalo
SK (I already have this size, but this is a little more square)

d42jeep · Apr 24, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
I don't know about expertise, but I have studied the DBE patterns, the specifications for which were the subject of some hot debate among WWII collectors. I even created some diagrams to better illustrate the different geometries at work with offset vs. angled patterns. The Barcalo and Vlchek hybrids are unique. I'm off to Ft Benning for the week, but I'll post the diagrams with examples when I return. In the meantime, mattXYZ posted a good view of the Barcalo on its side, showing the slight offset, here.

Here are a couple of images from thre years ago during a discussion on this very subject. The Photo shows a side view of some wrenches with the slight offset Barcalo being the lower batch. Lugz provided the drawing to make the 15 degree angle clearer on the various styles of wrenches.
-Don

Private Lugnutz · Apr 25, 2018

Haha. Thanks, Don! You have a better memory than me!

At the time I created that diagram, we had a lot of new collectors confused about the difference between an offset (heads in same plane as shank, bent shank) and angle (heads not in same plane as shank). I was also irritated with people calling 15* wrenches knuckle busters. They actually have more hand clearance than offsets. Offsets have more clearance for obstructions close to the nut or bolt.

I have a different set of diagrams made from actual wrenches instead of drawn to make the same points. I don't think I ever posted those.

On the right, from the top to the bottom, are images of a:
- standard 15* DBE
- Barcalo hybrid
- Vlchek hybrid
- standard long and short offsets

Private Lugnutz · May 25, 2018

Okay, shirkers (...last post on this thread a month ago? A MONTH!? Really? WTF, Over?...), I found a cool matching set today.

No OEM markings, and no idea on the manufacturer, but it's clearly European, and probably the 30's or 40's, I reckon, with "CHROM-VANADIUM" steel composition and 'for "BSW" (British Standard Whitworth) and "BSF" (British Standard Fine) nut and bolt' size markings. Perhaps after the war but before Metrification (late 50's-1963, if I'm not mistaken).

I'd really like to know who made these. The style, heft in the hand feel, workmanship, and finish is excellent. They were never used, by the way. Not a burr on them. The "CHROM-VANADIUM" marking was all over Europe, but mainly on the continent (West Germany, France, Italy, Poland, etc). Maybe you guys can help me think through this. If they were made in England, by a Great Britain manufacturer, I would suspect to see the "E" on the end of the "CHROM." Why would a tool manufacturer on the continent make wrenches in BSW/BSF sizes? Was the standard that widespread? I am out of my league on that.

humber2 · May 25, 2018

These are post-war German made to a common style so they could be stamped for whatever marketing chain took them.

The W and BS sizing was established c1952 but that does not preclude its use before then.

Possible makers are Elora, Gedore, Matador to name but a few.

Your "set" starts off with the full sequence of fractional increments but clearly has one missing and would have continued on to contain as many again.

Private Lugnutz · May 25, 2018

Thanks, humber2. Hmm. I thought the BSW and BSF thread forms were much, much older. Yes, clearly not a complete set. And yes, intentionally not marked with an OEM, not unlike the FORGED STEEL and similar schemes here in the US made by Vlchek, Lectrolite and others, hence my question. Thanks again, for the leads on possible mfgrs, too.

humber2 · May 25, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
Thanks, humber2. Hmm. I thought the BSW and BSF thread forms were much, much older. Yes, clearly not a complete set. And yes, intentionally not marked with an OEM, not unlike the FORGED STEEL and similar schemes here in the US made by Vlchek, Lectrolite and others, hence my question. Thanks again, for the leads on possible mfgrs, too.

I picked a Matador wrench to compare and while a dead ringer it has the larger end sized 3/8BS above 5/16W

It's clearly a mid 50's onwards version.

Looking back at your images you show WW above BSF so prior to the upgrade.

There must have been some International agreement as to marking Country of origin for exported items. It would be interesting to know the date of this.

Not all West German makers bothered with adding West, my Matador has forged in a panel "Chrom-Vanadium Germany"

Eg. "British Made" apparently no longer complied so more than one tool maker had to revise
their forging to show Made in England as Great Britain comprises several countries.

Could be worthwhile posting in Monte's Tools from the Old World thread to ascertain maker.

Private Lugnutz · May 25, 2018

humber2 said:
Could be worthwhile posting in Monte's Tools from the Old World thread to ascertain maker.

Will do. I'm guessing that's up on the General board since I've never seen it, right?

On the topic of when was BSW and BSF established, why would they be established so late, practically just before the conversion to metric? I would've thought these were in place for a long time. :headscrat

In fact, Blackhawk was making sockets in BSW sizes and markings in 1940. See here, here, and here. If an American mfgr was, certainly British and others would be, no?

humber2 · May 25, 2018

The Whitworth thread was devised in 1841.

See British Standard Wiki

WW nut and bolt heads are quite large and the motor industry was at the heart of slimming down the size along with using BSF threads. All long before the First World War.

Private Lugnutz · May 25, 2018

Aha. Thanks.

bluebolt · May 25, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
Okay, shirkers (...last post on this thread a month ago? A MONTH!? Really? WTF, Over?...), I found a cool matching set today.

No OEM markings, and no idea on the manufacturer, but it's clearly European, and probably the 30's or 40's, I reckon, with "CHROM-VANADIUM" steel composition and 'for "BSW" (British Standard Whitworth) and "BSF" (British Standard Fine) nut and bolt' size markings. Perhaps after the war but before Metrification (late 50's-1963, if I'm not mistaken).

I'd really like to know who made these. The style, heft in the hand feel, workmanship, and finish is excellent. They were never used, by the way. Not a burr on them. The "CHROM-VANADIUM" marking was all over Europe, but mainly on the continent (West Germany, France, Italy, Poland, etc). Maybe you guys can help me think through this. If they were made in England, by a Great Britain manufacturer, I would suspect to see the "E" on the end of the "CHROM." Why would a tool manufacturer on the continent make wrenches in BSW/BSF sizes? Was the standard that widespread? I am out of my league on that.

Hey Lugz, I have one of those wrenches some where! Seems like I tracked it down to a German maker.

Private Lugnutz · May 25, 2018

bluebolt said:
Hey Lugz, I have one of those wrenches some where! Seems like I tracked it down to a German maker.

That seems to be the consensus. What size combo is it? :pimpflash

You see where I'm going with this right? :lol:

You see the wrench I am missing in the sequence above - between the largest and the next one up? That's 7/16 BSW / 1/2 BSF x 3/8 BSW / 7/16 BSF.

humber2 · May 26, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
You see the wrench I am missing in the sequence above - between the largest and the next one up? That's 7/16 BSW / 1/2 BSF x 3/8 BSW / 7/16 BSF.

Apart from needing a few open jaw wrenches to work on pipes, rods and cables you have the basis for a proper toolset for maintenance of your WDM20

Have a measure of the largest nut you can see, perhaps wheel nut, and that would determine the largest wrench usually called for and seek up to that size.

There may be larger nuts on the gearbox, clutch and crankshaft ends but they are rarely visited.

Private Lugnutz · May 26, 2018

Yup.

The disadvantage with DBE wrench sets that repeat opening sizes - like this Matador set, which has a scheme that puts a redundant end on every wrench (the smallest size opening on every wrench is the largest size opening on the next wrench), is that it takes a lot of wrenches to cover the full range. Looking through vintage catalogs and ads you'll see Mfgr's boasting about the opposite, sets with no redundant ends, which reduces the total number of wrenches in the set.

The advantage with DBE wrench sets that repeat opening sizes - like this Matador set, is that you can be missing a wrench, but not missing any opening sizes. Even though I'd like to have that missing wrench for a sense of completeness in the sequence I have, I have the 7/16 BSW / 1/2 BSF opening on the next wrench up, and I have the 3/8 BSW / 7/16 BSF opening on the next wrench down.

EDIT: Speaking of...

humber2 said:
a proper toolset for maintenance of your WDM20

...I have made some decent progress on the original toolkit, thanks in no small part to a vintage Brit bike lot of tools that bluebolt let me pick through!

I'm going to start a thread for that.

bluebolt · May 26, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
EDIT: Speaking of......I have made some decent progress on the original toolkit, thanks in no small part to a vintage Brit bike lot of tools that bluebolt let me pick through!

I'm going to start a thread for that.

Yes and include plenty of pics of the bike too!

leg17 · May 26, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
.....

The advantage with DBE wrench sets that repeat opening sizes - like this Matador set, is that you can be missing a wrench, but not missing any opening sizes. .....

And you can manage a bolt and nut of the same size.

BlueBomber · May 27, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
Okay, shirkers (...last post on this thread a month ago? A MONTH!? Really? WTF, Over?...)

Well, okay, sure--the thread's been a little slow. You certainly re-energized it with those British Whitworths!

I hit an estate sale and came home with 35 DBEs today. Unfortunately, I'm so out of my groove in posting large acquisitions that I started putting them away before cataloging them here. :-~

I'll try to correctly caption the following pics:

Barcalo offset, 9/16" x 1/2"
Billings 8731-A offset, 7/8" x 3/4"
Blackhawk BW1212 offset, 11/16" x 5/8"
Blackhawk BW1214 offset, 25/32" x 3/4"
Bonney 2891 angled, 1/2" x 9/16"

Craftsman!
Long-C deep offset stubby, 11/16" x 5/8"
Long-C offset, 9/16" x 1/2"
Craftsman angled, 1/4" x 5/16"
Craftsman offset, 1/4" x 5/16"
Craftsman offset, 9/16" x 5/8"
Craftsman offset, 7mm x 9mm
Craftsman Starter/Manifold, 9/16" x 5/8"

Chrome-X-Quality starter/manifold wrench, 9/16" x 5/8"

Giller offset, 1/2" x 7/16"
Herbrand 4725B deep offset stubby, 9/16" x 1/2"
Herbrand 6927 angled stubby, 11/16" x 5/8"
Husky H 8731-B deep offset, 7/8" x 13/16"
Indestro Select No. 913 deep offset, 5/8" x 11/16"
Indestro No. 914 deep offset, 3/4" x 25/32"
K-D No 286 super deep offset, 3/8" 6-pt x 7/16" 12-pt
Lectrolite TruFit deep offset, 3/8" x 7/16"

Penens 6314 offset, 7/16" x 3/8"
Plomb LA 1151 angled, 1-1/14" x 11-1/16"
Proto 1145 angled, 1" x 15/16"
Proto 1140 angled, 7/8" x 13/16"
Proto 1139 angled, 7/8" x 3/4"
Proto 1137 angled, 25/32" x 11/16"
Proto 1135 angled, 3/4" x 11/16"

Proto 1131 angled stubby, 3/4" x 5/8"
Proto 1145 angled stubby, 9/16" x 1/2"
S-K 33026 offset, 13/16" x 7/8"
S-K 33016 deep offset, 1/2" x 9/16"
Snap-on XS-1416 offset stubby, 7/16" x 1/2", 1953 date code
TruFit deep offset, 1-1/8" x 1-1/16"
Wizard H2192 offset stubby, 9/16" x 1/2"

misterbill · May 27, 2018

In order not to further anger the Lugnutians and their tool deity I offer this set of WWII era S-K DBEs for your perusal. :bowdown:

Bill

Username already in use · May 27, 2018

Those are nice,Bill! I didn’t know you were putting a set of those together. I think I have a couple around here somewhere. Are you missing any?

Private Lugnutz · May 27, 2018

misterbill said:
In order not to further anger the Lugnutians...

Would that be Lug-nyoo-sh(e)ns (as in Gulliver's Lilliputians) or Lug-NUT-ians (as in, Sgt Schultz's "I know nuttin', I see nuttin', I hear nuttin'"...)? :lol:

misterbill said:
I offer this set of WWII era S-K DBEs for your perusal.

Wow. Just wow. You been holdin' out on us!

Username already in use said:
Are you missing any?

That is a complete wartime No. 3300 boxed set! 33012 through 33030. They weren't making any other long patterns DBEs. Not even the carton is missing - because you couldn't buy them in sets during wartime, due to WPB L-216. :lol:

misterbill · May 27, 2018

The S-K DBEs have been falling in my lap one at a time until I was only missing the 33016 - and the Bay Area Bishop of Barcalo was able to hook me up.

And, yes, Lugz it is pronounced like Lilliputian. It would be "nut" if you were using your other nom de G.

bill

BlueBomber · May 28, 2018

By the way, here is a current pictures of my Working Museum of DBEs on the wrench rack. The rack's bottom row is filled to capacity and needs to be doubled like I did the top row. Unfortunately, I'll have no time any time soon to do that...

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Private Lugnutz · May 28, 2018

Do you have a sewing machine? This goes right over your heart...

View media item 83458

BlueBomber · May 28, 2018

Private Lugnutz said:
Do you have a sewing machine? This goes right over your heart...

View media item 83458

Are you implying that I'm a hoarder? I was at first offended, but then I went and looked it up.

Here's the definition from Psychology Today:

Hoarding Disorder

Definition

Hoarding is a disorder characterized by an ongoing resistance to discarding unnecessary items like junk mail, old newspapers, and materials that most people would consider to be garbage. People with hoarding disorder also hold on to personal possessions that are no longer needed, either because they feel personally attached to the items or because they believe they will need them in the future. The accumulation of clutter and lack of order and cleanliness can cause health and safety risks within the home and create social, professional, and functional problems for a person with hoarding disorder. The disorder also affects the people around the hoarder.

Now, admittedly, I do hold on to personal possesions that have sentimental value beyond my need, and my garage is hard to move around in, mostly because of piles of packing materials I am saving to reuse for Ebay sales....which I admittedly am not doing a lot of.

However, as a collector of DBEs, my wrench collection is well-displayed, not a health or safety risk (presuming the rack doesn't rip out of the wall...

) and are not creating a social, professional or functional problem.

Even my wife says "Better wrenches than wenches!"

So there. I doth protest...much.

Private Lugnutz · May 28, 2018

Lest there be any doubt, it was definitely intended as a badge of honor, BB! And that's a terrific collection!

misterbill · May 28, 2018

I second Lugz' comment on that being a great collection. What do you think they all weigh in total? I'm imagining some great counterweight on the other side of the wall!

bill

My small but growing DBE wrench collection

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