My favorite ratchet wrench - Mossberg Auto-Cle
- Thread starter crguy
- Start date
Pumpman1968
Well-known member
I have to admit............I have NEVER seen one of those before. SCHWEET! What a great piece of history!
woody 73
Well-known member
Very nice.
Just what the vintage tool section is all about!
Just what the vintage tool section is all about!Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
A crude but clever design feature of this simple but effective clutch-type ratcheting mechanism that AA doesn't even bother to describe.
Hi crguy. I recently picked up an early Auto-Cle set.
I say early because there are no Mossberg markings on the box or the tools, and the marking on the ratchet is different than the marking on AA, so possibly the earliest incarnation of the Q.M.S. Motor Parts set that Mossberg was making and then selling.
I searched GJ for discussions, and, believe it or not, yours is the only other example I found!
I have two questions:
(1) How do you suppose the screwdriver bits were driven? I can see no apparent provision, and unless I missed AA doesn't describe that, either.
(2) How does your handle work? AA describes it as a "folding handle," which I don't understand. They don't describe its operation, and they don't show it in its operational position as a cross-bar or tommy bar, as you have shown. Does you handle separate from the ratchet? If so, how? Please post some additional pics if you get a chance.
Below are a series of photos of mine and it will be apparent how it operates. Or at least the only way it makes sense to me. It's got the notch, obviously, to get it in and out of the hole. Even if mine wasn't missing the stop, it wouldn't "fold". Curious about yours. Thanks.
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Farmer J.
Well-known member
I just couldn't resist buying this set, it's such good condition. The Patent no on the lid doesn't match any of the ones on the AA site, has anyone got any ideas/opinions about this set?
It's still in transit on it's way to me but I will post more pics when i can, a close up look at the writing on the ratchet handle may give some info.
It's still in transit on it's way to me but I will post more pics when i can, a close up look at the writing on the ratchet handle may give some info.
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Farmer J.
Well-known member
Link to the inventor Camille Contal GB patent no. which is the one on the lid of this set.
http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?pn=190322391&id=53506
And patent illustrations, also Feb 1903 Autojournal page.
There's also the original French and the US patent, of course. I've not yet found any indication these were ever made by anyone else other than QMS Co. or Mossberg as stated on the AA site.
http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?pn=190322391&id=53506
And patent illustrations, also Feb 1903 Autojournal page.
There's also the original French and the US patent, of course. I've not yet found any indication these were ever made by anyone else other than QMS Co. or Mossberg as stated on the AA site.
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Farmer J.
Well-known member
four.cycle
Well-known member
(* completely unrelated to Auto Cle, but perhaps relevant: I wasn't aware these were also available tat Archives.org. Here's a 1905 edition: https://ia800302.us.archive.org/3/items/TheAutomotorJournal1stHalf1905/automotorjournal1905a.pdf *)
(* I know I've got some Auto Cle stuff here somewhere I'll dig up what i can when I get some free time. A good friend of mine wants to go antique shopping today *)
(* I know I've got some Auto Cle stuff here somewhere I'll dig up what i can when I get some free time. A good friend of mine wants to go antique shopping today *)
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
They were made in France first and I think that's what you might have. In other words, not only prior to Mossberg, but prior to QMS. The earliest version of the earliest detachable socket drive tools ever made!
Maybe. I'd have to dig unto deeper, unless you or 4.c beat me to it. Thanks. I was just hung up on the description of it as "folding". To me, a folding handle is not detachable. It is integral and folds open and closed. This handle is completely separate and you have to string it through the opening to use it. Where it goes when not in use is incidental to that. That it can be hooked by the L end to the end of the ratchet for storage is a nice feature, I just don't know I would describe that as folding. To me it's misleading. But maybe that's just me and I'm okay with that. Having never seen one, but reading the description, I didn't expect it to be detached. But we've beat that to death now.
Farmer J.
Well-known member
Thanks for that link four.cycle, it's enjoyable reading and will keep me occupied for a long time!
Look forward to seeing what Auto Cle stuff you can dig up too.
Farmer J.
Well-known member
They were made in France first and I think that's what you might have. In other words, not only prior to Mossberg, but prior to QMS. The earliest version of the earliest detachable socket drive tools ever made!
I'm going to wait until the set I've bought arrives, and then look and see what it says on the ratchet handle. There's some stamping on there not fully visible in the advert pics.
As to where they were first made in France and by whom, I'm finding that difficult to research, but just hang fire on that for a few days. I have a kindly, aged uncle in Switzerland and he's currently working away on that but has found nothing yet.
Farmer J.
Well-known member
Well, my uncle has drawn a blank so far trying to find out where these things were made in France. I got this message from him:
...discovered that the french for 'monkey wrench' is 'une (feminine) clé anglaise'!......cannot discover where in france this factory 'l'auto-clé' was .....hopefully it will say on the box when you receive it...
So, despite having been reminded that they call a 'Monkey Wrench' a ' Feminine English Wrench', nothing more so far. Any further research efforts very welcome. J.
...discovered that the french for 'monkey wrench' is 'une (feminine) clé anglaise'!......cannot discover where in france this factory 'l'auto-clé' was .....hopefully it will say on the box when you receive it...
So, despite having been reminded that they call a 'Monkey Wrench' a ' Feminine English Wrench', nothing more so far. Any further research efforts very welcome. J.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Haha. I am picturing your "kindly, aged uncle" as a dapper old gent in a cardigan sweater with Hercule Poirot style moustaches holding a loupe up to his eye in front of an oak desk desheveled with books and papers lit dimly with an antique green lamp trying to crack the case!
Farmer J.
Well-known member
Ha, ha, you're amazingly close with that description Lugz! He doesn't have a moustache though. His honorary desk is in the ancient library of a European University, he has the internet as well as all those reference books, papers and notes and he's good at this research stuff, very good. Having a lifelong knowledge of American cars and lots of 'contacts' helps him, too. If he can't find any information on this it's likely there is very little or nothing available to find.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
In the 'Nothing like a little challenge for motivation...' category..., I believe I cracked the case.
The number on your box (22,391) appears to be a British Patent, applied for on 4 December 1902, and granted in 1903 (the reference does not provide a date - it is simply filed in the 1903 section), which pre-dates the US Patent (751,055) granted 2 February 1904.
Below is an excerpt from the reference - Abridgements of Specifications, Class 61, Hand Tools, Period A.D. 1901-04, linked here for further reading.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
You will find the following information even more interesting.
I found an ad and an article for the "L'Auto-Cle" wrench set in a 1904 issue of a French trade journal called Le Vie Automobile. That pre-dates the acquisition of the Auto-Cle line by Mossberg from QMS in 1908, as well as the acquisition of the Auto-Cle line by QMS from the Railway Appliances Company (Chicago) in 1906.
The reference is linked here for further reading.
Here is the ad...
Crude translation: The Auto-Cle is the most perfectly perfected multi-combination tool wrench essential to any automobilists and Industry.
- Societe L'Auto-Cle
I found an ad and an article for the "L'Auto-Cle" wrench set in a 1904 issue of a French trade journal called Le Vie Automobile. That pre-dates the acquisition of the Auto-Cle line by Mossberg from QMS in 1908, as well as the acquisition of the Auto-Cle line by QMS from the Railway Appliances Company (Chicago) in 1906.
The reference is linked here for further reading.
Here is the ad...
Crude translation: The Auto-Cle is the most perfectly perfected multi-combination tool wrench essential to any automobilists and Industry.
- Societe L'Auto-Cle
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
And here is the article, Part 1...
...and Part 2
Translation:
"We are familiar with this interesting device from Mr. Contal's ingeniousness, which our editor-in-chief provided a clear description of in the No. 70 edition of Locomotion.
As perfect as it was, it did not yet fulfill all the requirements of the clientele, for the very simple reason that each type of car required a special model of wrench.
Mr. Contal understands very well the design that was intended for the use of his device by garages and car repairers as well as for individual owners and several car dealerships. Auto-cle appliances, accompanied by a kit containing all the sockets adapting to all the diameters of bolts, is also used in automobiles.
Thanks to this kit, you can tighten the bolts of a Mercedes as well as a Dion, a Serpollet, or a Richard-Brasier. Continuing further the improvement of its manufacture, Mr. Contal now makes the tools with stamped steel whose superiority in the solidity point of view is of much higher quality than the molded tubes originally used."
...and Part 2
Translation:
"We are familiar with this interesting device from Mr. Contal's ingeniousness, which our editor-in-chief provided a clear description of in the No. 70 edition of Locomotion.
As perfect as it was, it did not yet fulfill all the requirements of the clientele, for the very simple reason that each type of car required a special model of wrench.
Mr. Contal understands very well the design that was intended for the use of his device by garages and car repairers as well as for individual owners and several car dealerships. Auto-cle appliances, accompanied by a kit containing all the sockets adapting to all the diameters of bolts, is also used in automobiles.
Thanks to this kit, you can tighten the bolts of a Mercedes as well as a Dion, a Serpollet, or a Richard-Brasier. Continuing further the improvement of its manufacture, Mr. Contal now makes the tools with stamped steel whose superiority in the solidity point of view is of much higher quality than the molded tubes originally used."
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
As far as I know, there is no mention of the British patent or the brief ownership of the Auto-Cle line by the Railway Appliances Company prior to QMS on Alloy Artifacts. When you receive your kit, take some good photos and I will get them and this heretofore undiscovered early history uploaded to TA 2.0.
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four.cycle
Well-known member
looks like I'm going to have to up my game in the research department.
Farmer J.
Well-known member
That's great research Lugz, well done, it's nice to know from the article that they were in fact made before QMS or Mossberg. I was getting despondent about the chances of finding anything!
I did put a link to the GB patent in post no 9 but after that the trail went cold for me..
I'm certainly intending to post some pictures of this when it arrives.
I wonder what's at that address in Paris in the advert. Almost tempted to go and have a look as it's only a couple of hours from here on the high speed train!
I did put a link to the GB patent in post no 9 but after that the trail went cold for me..
I'm certainly intending to post some pictures of this when it arrives.
I wonder what's at that address in Paris in the advert. Almost tempted to go and have a look as it's only a couple of hours from here on the high speed train!
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Ah, yes, I forgot. That's where the question of French production started, in that same post. Sorry about that. But the French production is exciting.
Farmer J.
Well-known member
It's great to find that evidence of the production in France. I just had a look on Google Streetview at 186 Boulevard Pereire, Paris. it was even easier than going by train! There's one of those impressive French buildings there with a person in the doorway going through to the courtyard behind the frontage, maybe they were even actually made there at that building.
four.cycle
Well-known member
down the rabbit hole we go....
obviously the Auto Cle' ratchet was quite an item - see the third image.
(* PM me with a good email addy if you want a copy you can read *)
obviously the Auto Cle' ratchet was quite an item - see the third image.
(* PM me with a good email addy if you want a copy you can read *)
Farmer J.
Well-known member
That's great four.c well done.
My uncle, 'Poirot'! has come up with an interesting article on the inventor, it only says they were made in the USA by Quincy and then Mossberg. Here's the link to the article:
https://lestricars.es.tl/Contal.htm
and google translate works well on it.
My uncle, 'Poirot'! has come up with an interesting article on the inventor, it only says they were made in the USA by Quincy and then Mossberg. Here's the link to the article:
https://lestricars.es.tl/Contal.htm
and google translate works well on it.
Farmer J.
Well-known member
OK, here we go... now the research can start in earnest!
Whilst I was posting the previous message the parcel van arrived and delivered the set, all safe and well wrapped.
The only marks on the tools apart from the sizes on the sockets and the PO initials JCH on almost everything is these marks on the ratchet.
On the top part in an oval similar but smaller than the previously seen ones is
AUTO-C_E (between the 'C' and the 'E' is just a clear horizontal line so not a poorly stamped 'L'.)
BTE (with the 'TE' smaller and underlined) S. G. D. C.
No. 20868
At the smaller drive end of the ratchet is another oval, partly worn away, saying REGISTERED TRADE MARK V?L?? around the outside.
Within the oval is AUCLE in fancy bold capital letters.
Whilst I was posting the previous message the parcel van arrived and delivered the set, all safe and well wrapped.
The only marks on the tools apart from the sizes on the sockets and the PO initials JCH on almost everything is these marks on the ratchet.
On the top part in an oval similar but smaller than the previously seen ones is
AUTO-C_E (between the 'C' and the 'E' is just a clear horizontal line so not a poorly stamped 'L'.)
BTE (with the 'TE' smaller and underlined) S. G. D. C.
No. 20868
At the smaller drive end of the ratchet is another oval, partly worn away, saying REGISTERED TRADE MARK V?L?? around the outside.
Within the oval is AUCLE in fancy bold capital letters.
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Farmer J.
Well-known member
Here's the pics of the drive end.
I will get better pictures taken of the whole thing, by someone who is better at taking them than me!
These are the only markings I can find, there's nothing on the box or the latches, high quality brass items fitted with little spring loaded pins. Apart from...
The screws, holding the latches and the brass patent plate look like Frearson design to me, they're not Phillips. And they have a tiny letter C stamped on the head of all of them.
Will do more research later, got farming to do now.. J
I will get better pictures taken of the whole thing, by someone who is better at taking them than me!
These are the only markings I can find, there's nothing on the box or the latches, high quality brass items fitted with little spring loaded pins. Apart from...
The screws, holding the latches and the brass patent plate look like Frearson design to me, they're not Phillips. And they have a tiny letter C stamped on the head of all of them.
Will do more research later, got farming to do now.. J
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Simply amazing, J!
I dare say that is the first time any collector has seen that particular marking, other than prior owner, and again, I think you may have the earliest known variant of the Auto-Cle set in that box, which is in ridiculously grand condition considering its age. It looks like it was kept in a vault wrapped in velour.
Could the B in BTE be British? And could the 20868 possibly be an even earlier British patent to 22341? Just a guess. Although my first though about S.G.D.C. was Societe something something Cle.
I dare say that is the first time any collector has seen that particular marking, other than prior owner, and again, I think you may have the earliest known variant of the Auto-Cle set in that box, which is in ridiculously grand condition considering its age. It looks like it was kept in a vault wrapped in velour.
Could the B in BTE be British? And could the 20868 possibly be an even earlier British patent to 22341? Just a guess. Although my first though about S.G.D.C. was Societe something something Cle.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
As I alluded to upthread, the first manufacturing of the Auto-Cle wrench sets in the US was actually done by the Railway Appliances Company, followed by QMS, followed by Mossberg. See Pics 1, 2, & 3.
QMS may have been a re-organization of RAC. What has never been clear is the business relationships. Was the intellectual property transferred from Contal to RAC and from RAC to QMS and from QMS to Mossberg? Or was it just rights and licensing fees? I've read the AA summary, which is vague and contorted at the same time, and omits RAC completely. Not something I care enough about to dive deeper into, but still, not exactly resolved.
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Farmer J.
Well-known member
Thanks Lugz. The BTE could indeed be short for 'British'. The 20868 numbers look to be hand stamped individually, not part of the main stamping around them. The 'No.' stamping in front of the numerals is part of the main thing.
Me too, the AA is pretty vague and I just haven't got the will to delve in to all the minutae of all these company histories and all the mergers/takeovers/agreements stuff..
four.cycle
Well-known member
You are just now discovering that the rabbit hole has no bottom?
Farmer J.
Well-known member
You are just now discovering that the rabbit hole has no bottom?
I have suspected that for some time, whilst in freefall down it.. Having done family history research for years. Met some interesting folk along the way though..
Farmer J.
Well-known member
Maybe that Registered Trade Mark 'AUCLE' is a shortened version of the name AUto CLE. 
Farmer J.
Well-known member
I found what's likely to be the BTE SGDC bit, but only assuming the 'C' is supposed to be a 'G', but it looks quite clearly stamped....:
Breveté SGDG was a French type of patent that ceased to exist in 1968. The name was a common abbreviation for "Breveté Sans Garantie Du Gouvernement“ (patent without government guarantees).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breveté_SGDG
Breveté SGDG was a French type of patent that ceased to exist in 1968. The name was a common abbreviation for "Breveté Sans Garantie Du Gouvernement“ (patent without government guarantees).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breveté_SGDG
four.cycle
Well-known member
Occam's Razor stuff again.
That was my first thought when you posted it, but I refrained from commenting on this one because another member here is far more knowledgeable about all things Mossberg than I am.
Easiest method: Start looking for something else.
I've spent the last several days chasing Will B. Lane all over the internet and just this morning discovered that Thomas B. Jeffery invented what was (erroneously) referred to as the "clincher tire" for bicycles. Yesterday I came upon that lengthy article posted above about Mossberg's new manufacturing facility (while searching for Lane.)
I think maybe I should go search for ladies Union Suits and maybe I'll find some more dope about Lane. Or maybe Jeffery's partner Gormully. Or that way cool "REX" "T" set the guy listed last night on Ebay.
Maybe I could call it a deliberate strategy.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Ahhh. Should've suspected something like that of the initials. Similar to other European countries, including Germany. Good work.
Ditto.
Farmer J.
Well-known member
ref post #27, I contacted the author of the article my Uncle forwarded to me, and got the reply below. If one reads his article, and the other information on that website, it's evident that the inventor Contal had plenty of capability to easily manufacture these tools himself, in France and Britain.. Here's what Dominique says, edited by me to shorten it:
Hello J,
thank you very much for your e-mail and for your interest in our website.
Above all, thanks a lot for the beautiful, very interesting photos of your set of Contal tools that you attached.
A great acquisition!
As you have already read on the website, Camille Contal patented his invention in December 1902. The Bitish patent is based on this.
I have attached for you a pdf file of the French patent because it contains a couple of interesting drawings. Contal founded his company named
"Société Anonyme L'Auto-clef" (a stock corporation) on April 18th 1903, the purpose being of course the production and the sale of these tools and of granting licenses.
The US patent has been granted in February 1904, so I suppose all American Auto-Clés are to be dated after 1904.
The number 22391-03 on the tag on the lid refers, as you mentioned, to British patent no 190322391, granted on 7th January 1904, of which I have attached a copy which you maybe know already.
I have also attached, for your interest, a nice article about the auto-clé from an old French newspaper.
The plate with the British patent number indicates that the toolkit has probably been manufactured in Great Britain and therefore dates from 1904 onward.
In France or America this British number would make no sense and would be very uncommon.
Contal's company later changed to "L'outillage Contal", which existed well into the 1920s or 30s. They kept producing the Auto-Clé as well as the drill and other
tools patented by Camille Contal. All this makes it difficult to estimate a date for the toolkit.
If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to write again.
Kindest regards,
Dominique
The file of the original French Patent is too large for me to post it here, I will try and email it to Lugz and then it can maybe you can put it on the TA site, 'If you don't mind, old boy!'
Hello J,
thank you very much for your e-mail and for your interest in our website.
Above all, thanks a lot for the beautiful, very interesting photos of your set of Contal tools that you attached.
A great acquisition!
As you have already read on the website, Camille Contal patented his invention in December 1902. The Bitish patent is based on this.
I have attached for you a pdf file of the French patent because it contains a couple of interesting drawings. Contal founded his company named
"Société Anonyme L'Auto-clef" (a stock corporation) on April 18th 1903, the purpose being of course the production and the sale of these tools and of granting licenses.
The US patent has been granted in February 1904, so I suppose all American Auto-Clés are to be dated after 1904.
The number 22391-03 on the tag on the lid refers, as you mentioned, to British patent no 190322391, granted on 7th January 1904, of which I have attached a copy which you maybe know already.
I have also attached, for your interest, a nice article about the auto-clé from an old French newspaper.
The plate with the British patent number indicates that the toolkit has probably been manufactured in Great Britain and therefore dates from 1904 onward.
In France or America this British number would make no sense and would be very uncommon.
Contal's company later changed to "L'outillage Contal", which existed well into the 1920s or 30s. They kept producing the Auto-Clé as well as the drill and other
tools patented by Camille Contal. All this makes it difficult to estimate a date for the toolkit.
If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to write again.
Kindest regards,
Dominique
The file of the original French Patent is too large for me to post it here, I will try and email it to Lugz and then it can maybe you can put it on the TA site, 'If you don't mind, old boy!'
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I think this might help explain why the box and the tools are in such great condition.
Still, if it's not the earliest example of an Auto-Cle set, it's certainly the only-iest British/French example, and that's significant. Why? Because AA, TA 1.0, and everyone here on GJ thought the line followed a sequential pattern of ownership from Contal to QMS to Mossberg. We discovered that there was a British patent, a French patent before that, that it was being manufactured in France and Britain well before the US, and that Contal retained all rights and apparently licensed the design for a fee. More trivially, we discovered that the first US company to manufacture it was Railway Appliances Company, not QMS. It is a terrific, unprecedented set.
Not at all. Our honor and pleasure!Farmer J. said: