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Best budget vintage oscilloscope for automotive repair?

Diesel Mercedes

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I don't want to spend too much, will a good vintage oscilloscope work for such applications? Which older models and make would you recommend? Something cheaper than a Tektronix 466, prefer it would cost less than or equal to $100.

Maybe a Tektronix 453?
 
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-OSIS-

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Why don’t you look into one of the pocket scopes from AESWave
 

GirchyGirchy

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Have you ever used a vintage O-scope? Any modern LCD-equipped one with a USB port will just blow it away. Much more portable and user friendly.
 

BDT/NWMN

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Check the search feature in the black stripe at the top of the page.. There have been a number of informative threads on automotive oscilloscopes. Definitely worth looking over.
 

theoldwizard1

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This?
https://www.ebay.com/i/253405970999?chn=ps

Oh common on ! What a joke !! Maybe for a high school kid who wants to learn electronic assembly by building a kit.

1 Mhz bandwidth, 256 byte storage. and you don't even get a housing.

I thought modern ones where less capable.
Nope ! Rigol set the benchmark a couple of years back and have exceeded it. I just read a review on a Siglent 1204X-E. It cost more than the Rigol equivalent but it was double the "digital" bandwidth.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Something cheaper than a Tektronix 466, prefer it would cost less than or equal to $100.

Maybe a Tektronix 453?

The problem with old 'scopes is they can be WAY OUT of calibration ! I have no idea what it would cost to get one calibrated, even NOT to a "standard". That, and used ones almost never come with probes or leads.

Actually, the Tek 466 is a very nice 'scope if you could get one with a certified calibration and probes for under $400 dollars. Dual time bases can be handy, if you know how to use them.
 
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theoldwizard1

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IMHO, the best "bang for the buck" is probably the LabNation SmartScope. It's software could use some improvement, especially if they want to break into the automotive field and its hardware is actually getting "old" (probably over 5 years old now :lol:).

At $250 it is still out of the OPs budget and you need a tablet/laptop.
 

Mr_B

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about cheapest half useful for car work is something from hantek, Ideally though you want double budget and get entry scope from pico as software and tech support makes it intuitive and very productive tool .
I used 2 channel hanteks in early days and done good diagnostics with it, pico is leap ahead as software so good .
Most of the cheap options are half a tool gimmick at best .
 
OP
D

Diesel Mercedes

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about cheapest half useful for car work is something from hantek, Ideally though you want double budget and get entry scope from pico as software and tech support makes it intuitive and very productive tool .
I used 2 channel hanteks in early days and done good diagnostics with it, pico is leap ahead as software so good .
Most of the cheap options are half a tool gimmick at best .
Welp, at least I learned now rather than later.
 

Mr_B

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^ I have a hantek dso1202b portable scope multimeter, picked it up used and it pretty useful but not best for all daily car scope work you need do.
Also had a 2 channel hantek pc based and that was better for some test on cars but still frustrating use at times and harder get clear cut results like can on my current pico .
If buy cheap you get a tool that only do half the work half as well and leave you frustrated and needing an upgrade pretty quick .
Well chosen hantek better than nothing (still cost over 100bucks for good model though) but for fast and clear results on car work pico hard beat in terms of the software functionality and price really. My portable hantek still gets used and great at basic stuff not needing the detail or recording memory but when in shop 90% of time I go straight to pico .
It same scenario as scanners, spend proper money and you get a tool that covers way more usage scenarios and saves heaps of time as intuitive and trouble free .
My advise would be build up better budget and get entry pico, second choice would be a hantec at deal price and use for basics and learning but pico way better tool to learn on and cover more advanced usage as you develop using it in my opinion .
 
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GTA Matt

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You're going to need to increase your budget no matter what you get. The accessories you need to properly utilize a labscope in an automotive setting will already send you past your budget. Your most cost effective, easy to use, portable (trust me, you want portable) and multi channel may be to find a used vantage pro or modis with accessories- amp probes, inductive pickups, good leads, etc.

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theoldwizard1

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about cheapest half useful for car work is something from hantek, Ideally though you want double budget and get entry scope from Pico as software and tech support makes it intuitive and very productive tool .
You haven't been shopping for a long time have you !

The 2 channel Pico 4225 with a starter kit cost over $1,000 !! Bare, it is still almost $800 !!
And the hardware specs on these are very UNDERWHELMING !

The Snap-On stuff is probably more expensive, but IMHO, the Pico Automotive 'scope are close to armed robbery.
 

theoldwizard1

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You're going to need to increase your budget no matter what you get. The accessories you need to properly utilize a labscope in an automotive setting will already send you past your budget. Your most cost effective, easy to use, portable (trust me, you want portable) and multi channel may be to find a used Vantage Pro or Modis with accessories- amp probes, inductive pickups, good leads, etc.

Good suggestion, but most of the used ones I have seen on eBay are WAY OVERPRICED and/or are missing the necessary pickups, etc.

Updating to the latest software version can be $$$ !
 
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GTA Matt

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Good suggestion, but most of the used ones I have seen on eBay are WAY OVERPRICED and/or are missing the necessary pickups, etc.

Updating to the latest software version can be $$$ !
I personally know guys who have bought or sold used snap on vantage pros with a few accessories in the $500 range. The other good thing about them, you can resell them for what you paid if you no longer want it.

The Pico stuff is expensive, yes, but it's after the capture analysis for automotive applications is far ahead of anything else I've used. Honestly the best money I've ever spent. My only regret is not buying it years ago. The smaller, hand-held and tablet scopes are great for quick, easy, out in the parking lot or away from my bay type diag' s, but for in depth analysis, I love my Pico. To be honest however, it is far more then most techs will ever utilize.

7984816b3cb718c5f72b88bdf6f7d698.jpg

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6PTsocket

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Have you ever used a vintage O-scope? Any modern LCD-equipped one with a USB port will just blow it away. Much more portable and user friendly.
It depends on apolication. The one you guys are looking at has an analog frequency response of 1Mhz. My old Tektronix is 100 Mhz. This little one has memory, compact size and a lot of nice features but to get the bandwidth, in a modern digital scope it is going to be a lot more than 50 bucks.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
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GirchyGirchy

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It depends on apolication. The one you guys are looking at has an analog frequency response of 1Mhz. My old Tektronix is 100 Mhz. This little one has memory, compact size and a lot of nice features but to get the bandwidth, in a modern digital scope it is going to be a lot more than 50 bucks.

This is for cars...what would the OP be needing to look for at 100MHz?
 

American Locomotive

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It depends on apolication. The one you guys are looking at has an analog frequency response of 1Mhz. My old Tektronix is 100 Mhz. This little one has memory, compact size and a lot of nice features but to get the bandwidth, in a modern digital scope it is going to be a lot more than 50 bucks.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
The memory, analysis features, etc... of things like the Rigol 1054z, or even the Pico are far more useful in the automotive world than 100 MHz bandwidth of your scope.
 

Mr_B

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^ +1 on this, pico with notebook super versitile and portable tool too .
 

Mr_B

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You haven't been shopping for a long time have you !

The 2 channel Pico 4225 with a starter kit cost over $1,000 !! Bare, it is still almost $800 !!
And the hardware specs on these are very UNDERWHELMING !

The Snap-On stuff is probably more expensive, but IMHO, the Pico Automotive 'scope are close to armed robbery.
2000 series start less than 200bucks, sky is the limit but even with cheaper models you got good software that great for autowork compared to the 50 and 100 buck options being pushed which close to useless toy.
Prices obviously based on bare prices, whatever scope you buy you will need buy supporting equipment for intended use .
reality is would spend 3 times the OP budget just on clamps, pickups, attenuators, as I said before proper worthwhile all scenario useable solution is proper money .
Pico hardware not top spec but it works great on autowork mainly due to quality software .
Snapon stuff is total armed robbery even used .
 
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chkustom

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I've been debating for awhile now about a scope. I was contemplating getting a Pico from autonerdz, but I just ordered a MicSig TO1104. The price couldn't be beat and all the reviews I find are positive.
 

Danglerb

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Looks like a great time to not buy and wait to see what comes out in a year or so. Maybe if I needed something right now I'd buy, but can't say if I would be that willing to pay more than $100, because not only will they get cheaper, they will get better.
 

richfinn

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£100 used Snap-On/UEi LS2000 from ebay

I used to have a used MAC/Tektronix ET2020 but I like the UEi built scope better

you can purchase all the accessories cheap enough from ebay (current clamps are more pricey but worth it)

I like the handhelds for quick testing outdoors, PICO is better in a workshop and has way better storage/record ability, but you must understand max voltage input and buy attenuators etc.

PICO software is free to download and play around with without the hardware to see if you like using it

Both very good beginners scopes for the money!!!

One thing to consider with accessories is BNC (PC based scopes) vs 4mm banana jacks (handhelds) you can buy adaptors, but if I did it again I would go all BNC
for the inevitable switch to PICO at some later date
 

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theoldwizard1

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Have you ever used a vintage O-scope? Any modern LCD-equipped one with a USB port will just blow it away. Much more portable and user friendly.

I second that ! $50 over your budget but you will not be lugging around 50 lbs of dead weight and looking for a place to plug it in.

My current "low cost" 'scope favorite is

attachment.php


Typical Chinese, it is sold under multiple brand names, at different price points, but the model number always seems to contain "1013".

YEAPOOK ADS1013D Handheld, 2 Channel, Storage Oscilloscope, 7" touch screen display - Amazon $150.
 

theoldwizard1

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One thing to consider with accessories is BNC (PC based scopes) vs 4mm banana jacks (handhelds) you can buy adapters, but if I did it again I would go all BNC for the inevitable switch to PICO at some later date
Concur !

The scope I listed above does use BNC.
 

crerus75

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I posted about the HScope to another thread, but it disappeared so I'll mention it here. Sorry if this gets long, it's a subject I've been investigating for a little while and I hope this info saves someone else some time and aggravation.

HScope is an Android app that allows you to connect a USB scope to an Android tablet or phone. It isn't quite up to Pico standards, but it has some features that are useful for automotive diagnostics (touchscreen interface, FFT, waveform capture and store, etc.) A copy of the HScope app, a cheap USB scope like a Hantek 6022BE, and a cheap Android tablet will set you back less than $200. You can use the Hantek on a PC as well (though not with the HScope app). You can download the free version of the app to evaluate, though it's missing some features. If you already have an Android tablet (or even a phone, though I recommend a tablet), you could be up and running for $100 or less. You don't need to use a Hantek scope, either. Several brands will work (check the HScope website), or you can even make your own out of an STM32 microcontroller if you want. You won't have a lot of the tools that you'll need later (current clamp, pressure transducers, etc.) but you can build up your arsenal as you go.

There is a channel on YouTube called Gadgets Playlist that shows a lot of the features of the scope and also shows how to make DIY test gear for it (COP ignition probe, in-cylinder pressure transducer, etc.). Most of the projects will give you back change from a $20 bill so they are good for a serious home-gamer or a tech that's just starting out. You'll also learn a lot.

You may also see something like an Autel AL539b, and someone may try to convince you that it's a scope. I have one, and while it is a nice tool for certain things and has a multimeter that can show a graph, it is NOT a scope. It will show you the waveform from something like a crank position sensor so you can see if it is DOA or not, but I wouldn't get my hopes up about trying to catch an intermittent glitch with it, and it won't record data or allow you to change the timebase settings. It's a nice all-in-one tool that will read codes, test batteries, and show you a waveform (sort of), but there have been some exaggerated claims made about it that you should take with a large grain of salt.

I've used old analog scopes in automotive diagnostics before but they wouldn't be my choice today. Typically they are non-storage scopes so are mostly useful for capturing repetitive events (like a bad alternator diode). A lot of what you'll be looking for are single-shot events, and the ability to store the waveform and review it later (or email it, or post it on an automotive forum) is very useful. Also, modern scopes have automatic measurements and cursors, so you don't have to spend time counting graticule lines to figure out frequencies or amplitudes.

Most analog scopes are now at least 30 years old. There are a lot of dried-out or leaking electrolytic capacitors in the power supplies, a lot of tarnished contacts in the switches, and a lot of life gone from the CRTs. That Tek 453 is a great analog scope with a really interesting history, but the last ones rolled out of the factory in the mid-1970s. I think a 453 weighs something like 29 lbs., has a tiny screen, and needs an extension cord to power it. No thanks.

If you absolutely HAVE to have an analog scope for whatever reason (IE you're either nostalgic or a glutton for punishment), look for one of the bazillion generic 20 MHz scopes that were released in the 1980s under a hundred different names. Look for one that shows a trace and displays a square wave when you connect the probes to the calibrator output, make sure both channels work, and don't pay more than $50. Shipping these heavy monsters is what often drives the cost up, so look for something local if you can. Don't get a single-channel scope unless it's free and working. 2 channel scopes are cheap and plentiful, and you give up a lot by not having that second channel.

If you don't have the knowledge to tell if a scope is functional enough to use, walk away. There is nothing more frustrating than having to teach yourself how to troubleshoot a scope that you need to use RIGHT NOW. Yes, that's bitter experience talking. I wouldn't buy an analog scope for automotive work if I had a choice, but there was a time when a used Tektronix T922R was all I could (barely) afford. Don't go this route unless you're REALLY out of alternatives, and even then, plan on upgrading to a digital storage scope as soon as you can. This is coming from a guy that looks for ANY excuse to drag home another analog scope.


There are several YouTube channels that have good information on diagnostics. Some of my favorites are:

Gadgets Playlist-- lots of DIY gear and HScope use. He details how to build diagnostic equipment for pennies on the dollar.

Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics-- Runs a one-man shop out of his house, also does mobile diagnostics. Famous for his "Russian Repairs" (fixing stuff on the cheap that normally would just get replaced). Does a lot of detailed analysis.

New Level Auto-- Keith DeFazio does (used to do) mobile diagnostics. Extremely knowledgeable, he has since left the technician world and is now (I think) a tech service rep. He doesn't do any more diagnosis videos, but the ones on his channel are still super useful.

ScannerDanner-- Teaches at Rosedale Technical College, has a ton of detailed case studies on his channel. Since he's a teacher, he breaks things down very logically and covers the basics well.

This is a fascinating line of work/hobby, so have fun and learn a lot.
 

theoldwizard1

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Hscope intrigues me ! A software solution to basically a hardware problem ?

What is the recommend "front end" ? Being a retired EE who tinkers with a lot of things, I am interested in things like sample rates (bandwidth is a marketing hook), A/D resolution and input voltage range.

2 channels minimum, but 4 would be nice !
 

crerus75

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Hscope intrigues me ! A software solution to basically a hardware problem ?
The software is surprisingly capable, with new features added all the time. It has a small but robust community behind it.

What is the recommend "front end" ? Being a retired EE who tinkers with a lot of things, I am interested in things like sample rates (bandwidth is a marketing hook), A/D resolution and input voltage range.

There are several scope recommendations on the HScope website, including a couple that can be user-built from STM32 microcontrollers. One of those would be the size of a large pack of gum, and if paired with a cellphone can be almost as compact as one of the DSO Nano scopes (DSO212/213, etc.). An external battery is sometimes required to power the scopes. The 6022 needs it for example, but I think a Hantek 1008 is powered by the tablet/phone.

I'll be honest, the Hantek specs are not stellar-- 20 MHz on a good day, 48 MSa/s, max input voltage of 35Vpp. I got it because it was inexpensive ($60 or so when I bought it), popular enough to have a fairly large user base, and compatible with a handful of third-party apps that can be run on multiple platforms. It also has a logic analyzer (that's what the L in BL indicates-- the more common BE model omits the logic analyzer). The logic analyzer won't run with HScope, but it WILL run with some 3rd-party apps.

God help you if you have to use the factory Hantek software. I've looked at it but never used it, and I don't hear anything good about it. Fortunately I don't plan on ever using it. I DO plan on investigating Sigrok (free, open-source signal analysis software for Windows and Linux) at some point, but for now I'm good to go with HScope. The nice thing about Sigrok is that it works with several scopes, logic analyzers, and multimeters, so you can build an entire test suite with it.

2 channels minimum, but 4 would be nice !

I think the software supports 4 channels but the Hantek doesn't so I haven't investigated it (yet). 4 channels would be nice but I can do almost everything I need with 2, and for the price I'm not complaining.

So I don't completely derail the OP's thread, there's another option for automotive use that I've been thinking about. There are multimeters out there that can log data to a smartphone via Bluetooth. While this won't replace a scope, I wonder if it would be useful for something like tracking down a parasitic drain. Hook the multimeter in series with the battery cable, walk away and let all the modules go to sleep, and see how much current is still flowing after a half hour. You would also have a very long timeline, so if a module keeps waking back up and killing the battery, you'd see it in the data. If I can find a Bluetooth meter that looks promising I may experiment with this and see just how capable it is.
 

theoldwizard1

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I think the software supports 4 channels but the Hantek doesn't so I haven't investigated it (yet). 4 channels would be nice but I can do almost everything I need with 2, and for the price I'm not complaining.
Hantek does have a couple of 4 channel models, but the price goes up, A LOT !

USB 3.0 would be nice and more waveform storage. I am always surprised that even the $300-$500 scope use 8 bit A/D.

Do you feel the sample rate is adequate for automotive use ?
 

Mr_B

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It does the job, I got couple cheaper scopes, one 50MS/s other 200MS/s and 50MS/s does the job pretty well.
Basically 2channels 8bit (12 nice), 20 to 30MHz do just fine for auto testing, real bonus is ac couple mode, signal generator and most importantly good software which preferably got some logging and maths and custom probe settings .
cheap good is OSC842 as cover all of above for under 100 bucks (hardware & hscope software combined costs), Being android based is handy as plug strait into a OTG capable phone or tablet and you away, quite a portable setup and you be amazed how far you could get even professionally with this scope and software .
It far far more capable and far better software than uscope that people crave on about
Pico 2000 series next step up in sensible pricing with the 25MHz scope with 200MS/s sample rate, built in signal generator and very nice windows software and good online support that can increase user ability massively .
Reality is scope specs don't need be amazing in auto testing, main thing is avoiding glitchy hardware and buggy or minimal software capability .
 

crerus75

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Do you feel the sample rate is adequate for automotive use ?

So far it has been, though I've never had to actually use it in anger. I've only played with it enough to familiarize myself with it and to debug my setup. I want to scope a few sensor signals and start developing a library of known-good waveforms, but it's too cold to have a car running with the garage door open right now.

I was trying to use the FFT function with a piezoelectric transducer to find the resonant frequency of a wine glass a couple weeks back, but I didn't spend enough time with it to get results. A lot of my projects are like that-- a weird idea worms its way into my head and I end up tinkering for a while.
 

crerus75

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It does the job, I got couple cheaper scopes, one 50MS/s other 200MS/s and 50MS/s does the job pretty well.
Basically 2channels 8bit (12 nice), 20 to 30MHz do just fine for auto testing, real bonus is ac couple mode, signal generator and most importantly good software which preferably got some logging and maths and custom probe settings .
cheap good is OSC842 as cover all of above for under 100 bucks (hardware & hscope software combined costs), Being android based is handy as plug strait into a OTG capable phone or tablet and you away, quite a portable setup and you be amazed how far you could get even professionally with this scope and software .
It far far more capable and far better software than uscope that people crave on about
Pico 2000 series next step up in sensible pricing with the 25MHz scope with 200MS/s sample rate, built in signal generator and very nice windows software and good online support that can increase user ability massively .
Reality is scope specs don't need be amazing in auto testing, main thing is avoiding glitchy hardware and buggy or minimal software capability .

Agreed. uScope is useful under certain circumstances and beats not having a scope, but it would not be my go-to scope for diagnostics.

The Pico is nice, and the entry level ones are relatively affordable, but it is also nice to have an alternative with the HScope. The competition will (hopefully) lead to better products.

The HScope user community is small but active and the developer (Martin Loren) is dedicated to improving it. This could all change, and we've all seen software packages that get mothballed when the developer moves on or loses interest, but for now it is giving us end-users a good, affordable product.

It's also lowered the barrier to entry for a lot of people. For a hundred bucks, anyone can start figuring out what an injector waveform or MAF signal looks like with their own scope. There's a lot of people out there that can start tinkering, and some of them will undoubtedly come up with new, clever ideas that will help the rest of us.
 

Plastikosmd

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I respect to the OP’s title of “budget and vintage”
I grabbed my first one today off of marketplace
Under 200$, looks hardly used, even the button have no fingerprint grease stains ;)
Hooked it up, now to start learning a bit more!





 
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