Air compressor in garage attic - Not your typical compressor thread
- Thread starter tig
- Start date
The tank is rated for 150psi. That is why I choose 145psi.
My BendPack RJ-45 requires 100psi. All my other tools require 90psi.
I have not yet put a pressure gauge at a tool yet, but if I find the pressure is way below 90psi I will simply adjust the regulator up (to a max of 145) as needed.
Can anyone see any issue with using a 220v/30a capable pump start relay to control the power to my compressor.
I would like to have my home control system turn off power to my compressor when I'm not using it (e.g. based on motion detection and time which are all trivial with my system).
I have a conveniently located 24v digital IO that could drive a Hunter PSR-52 (http://sprinklertalk.com/manuals/hunter/psr_broch.pdf) to control the power. I already use one of these for my irrigation pump so I familiar with their general operation.
I can't imagine any issue with doing this but I wanted to get some more opinions if possible...
I would like to have my home control system turn off power to my compressor when I'm not using it (e.g. based on motion detection and time which are all trivial with my system).
I have a conveniently located 24v digital IO that could drive a Hunter PSR-52 (http://sprinklertalk.com/manuals/hunter/psr_broch.pdf) to control the power. I already use one of these for my irrigation pump so I familiar with their general operation.
I can't imagine any issue with doing this but I wanted to get some more opinions if possible...
e-tek
Well-known member
Cool set up!
I have completed the project to automate the power control for my compressor with my home control system.
I originally wanted to use just one pump-start relay to control both the compressor (220v) and the auto-drain valve (110v) and was THIS close to hacking it together. In the end I decided to "do it right" and bought a second pump-start relay so that each circuit would have it's own.
Both pump-start relays are controlled by the same 24v signal from the home control system (an ADICON RLY8-XA controlled via RS-485 from the Premise Home Control software, if you care).
I mounted everything up tidy on a 2x6:
And the final result:
I also changed my plumbing a little.
I put a ball valve at the tank -> brass pipe connection, removing the air filter/regulator I had there. This project showed me that having ball valves to turn off the air in places is super helpful. I also moved the air filter/regulator I had near the compressor downstairs. The tank has a regulator on it, as well as a pressure gauage and those were duplicate. I will have filters at each outlet so there's really no need for a filter up top. In addition the filter/regulator I bought (Craftsman) apparently are known to pop seals - I do not want anything like that up in the attic.
I have some more fittings to attach and once I do I'll post final pictures of them.
I originally wanted to use just one pump-start relay to control both the compressor (220v) and the auto-drain valve (110v) and was THIS close to hacking it together. In the end I decided to "do it right" and bought a second pump-start relay so that each circuit would have it's own.
Both pump-start relays are controlled by the same 24v signal from the home control system (an ADICON RLY8-XA controlled via RS-485 from the Premise Home Control software, if you care).
I mounted everything up tidy on a 2x6:
And the final result:
I also changed my plumbing a little.
I put a ball valve at the tank -> brass pipe connection, removing the air filter/regulator I had there. This project showed me that having ball valves to turn off the air in places is super helpful. I also moved the air filter/regulator I had near the compressor downstairs. The tank has a regulator on it, as well as a pressure gauage and those were duplicate. I will have filters at each outlet so there's really no need for a filter up top. In addition the filter/regulator I bought (Craftsman) apparently are known to pop seals - I do not want anything like that up in the attic.
I have some more fittings to attach and once I do I'll post final pictures of them.
The replacement hose reel from Griot's came today. I installed matching Craftsman regulator/filters and hooked it up. Pictures below.
I have two regulators here so that the hose reel can be set to ~85 PSI as most of my tools require 90 PSI MAX but my Bend-Pak RJ45 bridge jack can take up to 120 PSI and it operates faster the more pressure it gets.
I still have to fabricate the final hose for the jack; for now I have a quick connect up there and a temporary flexible hose I use.
I did not realize Griot's Garage had such a FANTASTIC return policy. They replaced my 5 year old hose reel that was leaking for a brand new one, no questions asked. They even paid for shipping. I'm a huge fan.
I have two regulators here so that the hose reel can be set to ~85 PSI as most of my tools require 90 PSI MAX but my Bend-Pak RJ45 bridge jack can take up to 120 PSI and it operates faster the more pressure it gets.
I still have to fabricate the final hose for the jack; for now I have a quick connect up there and a temporary flexible hose I use.
I did not realize Griot's Garage had such a FANTASTIC return policy. They replaced my 5 year old hose reel that was leaking for a brand new one, no questions asked. They even paid for shipping. I'm a huge fan.
Resurrecting this thread - I have attempted to track down wherever my system is leaking and have failed. I've tried using a stethoscope, soapy water, etc... It leaks enough in a 24 hour period so that every day I enter the garage the compressor fires up; so roughly ~20psi.
I've decided I'm going to fix this problem with more technology:
A normally closed solenoid valve at the tank that will be actuated by the same 110v circuit that actuates the automatic drain valve.
Most of the solenoid valves I've found online max out at 150psi. Since I don't like installing something that is supposed to last for ever that is already at "max range" I want something heftier. After some searching I called these guys: http://www.stcvalve.com
They have a valve with he the following specs that I think will work. I'm hoping someone here with more experience in air systems than I will be able to confirm that this will indeed do what I hope:
Specs:
Model #: 2MS120-3/8-3
Normally Closed, 2 Way, Pilot Piston Operation
Operating Pressure: 6 to 230 PSI
Fluid Temperature: -20°C to 180°C
Ambient Temperature: -20 to 55°C
Valve Material: Stainless Steel
Seal: PTFE, Options: Viton, EPDM
Compatible Fluid: Steam, Air, Inert Gases, Water, Liquid, etc
Fitting: 3/8" NPT
Power: 110v
http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2MS VALVE.pdf
It's item #65 on this page: http://www.stcvalve.com/Process_Valves.htm
Thoughts?
I've decided I'm going to fix this problem with more technology:
A normally closed solenoid valve at the tank that will be actuated by the same 110v circuit that actuates the automatic drain valve.
Most of the solenoid valves I've found online max out at 150psi. Since I don't like installing something that is supposed to last for ever that is already at "max range" I want something heftier. After some searching I called these guys: http://www.stcvalve.com
They have a valve with he the following specs that I think will work. I'm hoping someone here with more experience in air systems than I will be able to confirm that this will indeed do what I hope:
Specs:
Model #: 2MS120-3/8-3
Normally Closed, 2 Way, Pilot Piston Operation
Operating Pressure: 6 to 230 PSI
Fluid Temperature: -20°C to 180°C
Ambient Temperature: -20 to 55°C
Valve Material: Stainless Steel
Seal: PTFE, Options: Viton, EPDM
Compatible Fluid: Steam, Air, Inert Gases, Water, Liquid, etc
Fitting: 3/8" NPT
Power: 110v
http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2MS VALVE.pdf
It's item #65 on this page: http://www.stcvalve.com/Process_Valves.htm
Thoughts?
bradweingartner
Well-known member
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- Sep 30, 2009
- Messages
- 149
I would consider the idea of using an ultraviolet dye to try to detect the leak.
However, the solenoid idea is good one. You already pretty much have the electronics in place to implement it easily. It's something I've been wanting to do once I get my compressor more permanently installed. I recently had an airhose burst on me at random. Luckily, it happened as I was walking right past it! The compressor was plugged in at the time because I was using it, and I normally make sure it's shut off when I leave. But there was that thought in the back of my mind of my compressor running for weeks (I travel for work).
Your setup is awesome.
However, the solenoid idea is good one. You already pretty much have the electronics in place to implement it easily. It's something I've been wanting to do once I get my compressor more permanently installed. I recently had an airhose burst on me at random. Luckily, it happened as I was walking right past it! The compressor was plugged in at the time because I was using it, and I normally make sure it's shut off when I leave. But there was that thought in the back of my mind of my compressor running for weeks (I travel for work).
Your setup is awesome.
MrMark
Well-known member
There is a Hercules special clingy leak detector that is used for finding leaking with gases. I would suspect your NPT fittings as copper sweat joints should not leak. I would not mess with the solenoid valve, you want to find that leak. It would drive me nuts and I would worry that it would grow, so to speak.
You put that copper in the wall, didn't you?
Where are you finding the water in your system? Are you spitting any water out the end of the line when using a high demand device like a die grinder or blow gun. You can actually see the water vapor come out with the blow gun sometimes.
Nice setup with those cabinets. What kind are they?
You put that copper in the wall, didn't you?
Where are you finding the water in your system? Are you spitting any water out the end of the line when using a high demand device like a die grinder or blow gun. You can actually see the water vapor come out with the blow gun sometimes.
Nice setup with those cabinets. What kind are they?
MrMark
Well-known member
Nealcrenshaw
Well-known member
very nice set up
offthefront
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Finally found a used Snap on just like Tigs ....been looking for a while and they are hard to find ....This one was bought in 2009 for 2600 and as you can see shows very little use ....The guy had a mobile repair service and I dont think it ever worked out .... Paid 750.00 which I think was fair for him and a good buy for me .....included the Factory Wheel setup ...thing glides real smooth .....otf
<embed wmode='transparent' tabindex='0' src='http://tools.bluemelon.com//flash/slideShowLight.swf' width='800px' height='600px' flashvars='albumid=84638&interval=4&bgc=#2d2d2d' quality='best' bgcolor='#2d2d2d' name='main' allowScriptAccess='always' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' pluginspage='http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer' />
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Update:
I woke up one night thinking "Hey, aren't you supposed to change the oil in air compressors?". I panicked realizing I've been using this thing since 2011 and had never changed the oil.
So today, I changed it. The old oil came out looking brand new. Whew.
I suppose if I used the compressor EVERY DAY a more frequent change interval would be required, but now that I've done it once, I'm pretty confident that every few years will be fine.
I woke up one night thinking "Hey, aren't you supposed to change the oil in air compressors?". I panicked realizing I've been using this thing since 2011 and had never changed the oil.
So today, I changed it. The old oil came out looking brand new. Whew.
I suppose if I used the compressor EVERY DAY a more frequent change interval would be required, but now that I've done it once, I'm pretty confident that every few years will be fine.
Another update: All is still well.
Except the damn Griot's hose reel. Failed again.
The Griot's Garage air hose reel ****. I've had 3 replaced under warranty since 2007. After the last one failed (wouldn't reel in all the way anymore) I decided to go a different direction. And I left a scathing review on their website.
I decided to go more 'pro'. I searched and searched and read many reviews. I finally decided on this Coxreel reel and bought it on Amazon. Expensive, but is really, really well made. Weighs about as much as Jupiter.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HB8SU6/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I'm happy so far, about 7 months later. Certainly feels well made.
Except the damn Griot's hose reel. Failed again.
The Griot's Garage air hose reel ****. I've had 3 replaced under warranty since 2007. After the last one failed (wouldn't reel in all the way anymore) I decided to go a different direction. And I left a scathing review on their website.
I decided to go more 'pro'. I searched and searched and read many reviews. I finally decided on this Coxreel reel and bought it on Amazon. Expensive, but is really, really well made. Weighs about as much as Jupiter.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HB8SU6/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I'm happy so far, about 7 months later. Certainly feels well made.
resurrecting this.....so first off, great idea, one ive recently come up with as well. My question is, is heat an issue during the hotter summer months in terms of hot air in the tank vs. an air tank in a cooler environment like mine currently sits, in the garage and not in the hotter attic? I dont want to get more moisture in my lines since im going through trouble to get rid of it.
I’m considering a small compressor I saw on Amazon mainly for tire inflation and maybe some other small jobs. It will be mounted in my attic above my garage so I’ll run power to it and use an air kit to run the air to the garage.
What are your thoughts on this compressor?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NOSCDPA/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I don’t want to climb in the attic to release the moisture from the tank. Is this device a good option?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015IY9VJI/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I’m using this to route the air.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015A11U2/?tag=atomicindus08-20
What are your thoughts on this compressor?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NOSCDPA/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I don’t want to climb in the attic to release the moisture from the tank. Is this device a good option?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015IY9VJI/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I’m using this to route the air.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015A11U2/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Cope
Well-known member
lakelandcat
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- 7,327
wouldn't do it for two reasons, vibration will shake you apart and heat will be terminal for your comp.
Lelandwelds
Well-known member
Joe
If you add a wye strainer that valve would work. It certainly is priced right. Look like this.
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-WYET050-1-2-Bronze-Wye-Strainer-Lead-Free-Threaded
California Air work great for airbrushes. Pretty low cfm for most other tools. The industrial model is designed for 4000 hours. The regular ones are either 1000 or 3000 hours.
Depending on the compresser, it will reach up to 300 ° F at the tubing coming out of the head. How hot is your attic? My old house hit about 130°F in the attic. Hard on rubber hoses. Although they can be rebuilt, oilless compressors are basically disposable. Dont worry about the heat. Just drain the water from tank.
Not a lot of vibration on the CA models I have seen.
That aluminum line is a bit of overkill for a tiny compressor. Overkill can be OK for its own sake. I used to install PE-AL-PE in small vet clinics for oxygen. I plan to use PEX on my next garage.
If you add a wye strainer that valve would work. It certainly is priced right. Look like this.
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-WYET050-1-2-Bronze-Wye-Strainer-Lead-Free-Threaded
California Air work great for airbrushes. Pretty low cfm for most other tools. The industrial model is designed for 4000 hours. The regular ones are either 1000 or 3000 hours.
Depending on the compresser, it will reach up to 300 ° F at the tubing coming out of the head. How hot is your attic? My old house hit about 130°F in the attic. Hard on rubber hoses. Although they can be rebuilt, oilless compressors are basically disposable. Dont worry about the heat. Just drain the water from tank.
Not a lot of vibration on the CA models I have seen.
That aluminum line is a bit of overkill for a tiny compressor. Overkill can be OK for its own sake. I used to install PE-AL-PE in small vet clinics for oxygen. I plan to use PEX on my next garage.
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lakelandcat
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- Messages
- 7,327
Just a thought-most MRV are installed in a bung, why not plumb a copper line down the wall into a 90 degree elbow and screw your petcock to that. it would take care of your moisture prob. and give you a way to drain your tank.
That strainer is a great idea. Thanks!
I’m in Texas so on a nice sunny day the attic can get in the 140s. I did not think about the impact the heat will have on the rubber hose.
Which is rather better for heat? Especially temps of roughly 140 degrees? PEX or PE-AL-PE?
Interesting. I didn’t think of that. Do you have pics or an example of this setup? I was going to place an aluminum pan below the drain tube and let the moisture drip into that. My thinking is that it will evaporate fairly quickly. I mean, I don’t plan on using the compressor more than once a week if that.
vtsoundman
Well-known member
I had a compressor stored/ran in a shipping container ... And had rubber/compressor hose run along the top. Hose dried out and cracked...and the fittings shot off twice. This was after 2 summers in the mild SF Bay Area. The container would get quite hot, but no where near 140.
As a side note, your motor and belt are not going to last long at those temps...find a way to get cooler air to that compressor.
I might be the devils advocate. We have 2 Rol-Airs in the mezzanine of our car wash. I would never do that again. The idiots that planned and install them for us dont know jack about compressors IMO.
When the air is compressed it gets hot and moisture becomes a problem. Right on page 1 of the Rol-Air manual it says put them on ground level, get cold air to them and run piping up to the ceiling. it gives a chance for the air to cool as it travels. Also gives you a chance to put traps when the piping comes down to the air outlets.
Just my thoughts. We have had nothing but trouble with ours. Granted they get heavy use but I wish I had planned this mechanical room not the "experts". They even put single phase motors for these and altered the starting circuits. Then try to tell us they never have electrical problems or water in the lines.
When the air is compressed it gets hot and moisture becomes a problem. Right on page 1 of the Rol-Air manual it says put them on ground level, get cold air to them and run piping up to the ceiling. it gives a chance for the air to cool as it travels. Also gives you a chance to put traps when the piping comes down to the air outlets.
Just my thoughts. We have had nothing but trouble with ours. Granted they get heavy use but I wish I had planned this mechanical room not the "experts". They even put single phase motors for these and altered the starting circuits. Then try to tell us they never have electrical problems or water in the lines.
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Bumping this thread because now that I'm doing more metal work, I feel like I need a dryer for plasma cutting.
Anyone have any experience with the McMaster-Carr dryers, like this one:
https://www.mcmaster.com/4409K83/
Anyone have any experience with the McMaster-Carr dryers, like this one:
https://www.mcmaster.com/4409K83/
I decided to cheap out and buy the HF air dryer. I'll probably regret it as I usually do when I try to save a buck on tools.
Anyway, in prep for it coming, I decided to add a desiccant-based dryer right before the hose reel. I added a bracket to the ceiling to support the additional weight.
I also started setting up the new lines in the attic. In doing so, I discovered this old valve leaks. If I turn it JUST RIGHT it stops leaking, but 1/8th of a turn will cause it to leak. I want to replace it.
However, I can't find anything like it in my Innerweb searches.
Does anyone know the source of one of these? It looks like a 2 3/8" fitting into the tank.
Pointers appreciated.
Anyway, in prep for it coming, I decided to add a desiccant-based dryer right before the hose reel. I added a bracket to the ceiling to support the additional weight.
I also started setting up the new lines in the attic. In doing so, I discovered this old valve leaks. If I turn it JUST RIGHT it stops leaking, but 1/8th of a turn will cause it to leak. I want to replace it.
However, I can't find anything like it in my Innerweb searches.
Does anyone know the source of one of these? It looks like a 2 3/8" fitting into the tank.
Pointers appreciated.
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I have completed "project dry air":
The HF air dryer came. It is clearly made of chinesium, but it works and is relatively quiet. If I have trouble with it you can be sure I'll share my angst here. But for now, all is good. Warning to those who buy this thing: It does NOT come with a power cord. I didn't notice that and thus the project was stalled while I sourced a suitable cord to use.
I went with the modern plastic 'snap in' air hose (via McMaster-carr). I have never really used this stuff before and it makes me a bit nervous, but I've seen enough threads where people use it to success that I went with it. I'm happy with the results.
I added a second outlet to the 120V relay output. To remind everyone, a key feature of my setup is the air compressor system is only on when I'm actually using the garage. It's tied into my smart home system such that it's powered up whenever the garage is in "occupied mode". When I tell Alexa to close up the garage ("Alexa, turn off upper garage all") the lights go out, the music stops playing, all doors close, and the air compressor turns off.
I can also manually turn on and off the compressor power with "Alexa, turn on/off the air compressor". Of course I can do all of this with touch commands on the phone or touchscreen too.
There are two relays involved. One is on the 240V circuit; this powers the compressor itself. The other is on a 120V circuit and it used to just power the automatic tank drain. The second outlet on this relay now also powers the air dryer, so it is only on when the compressor is live.
Finished project:
It is really great having all this stuff out the the way (and quiet) in the attic.
The HF air dryer came. It is clearly made of chinesium, but it works and is relatively quiet. If I have trouble with it you can be sure I'll share my angst here. But for now, all is good. Warning to those who buy this thing: It does NOT come with a power cord. I didn't notice that and thus the project was stalled while I sourced a suitable cord to use.
I went with the modern plastic 'snap in' air hose (via McMaster-carr). I have never really used this stuff before and it makes me a bit nervous, but I've seen enough threads where people use it to success that I went with it. I'm happy with the results.
I added a second outlet to the 120V relay output. To remind everyone, a key feature of my setup is the air compressor system is only on when I'm actually using the garage. It's tied into my smart home system such that it's powered up whenever the garage is in "occupied mode". When I tell Alexa to close up the garage ("Alexa, turn off upper garage all") the lights go out, the music stops playing, all doors close, and the air compressor turns off.
I can also manually turn on and off the compressor power with "Alexa, turn on/off the air compressor". Of course I can do all of this with touch commands on the phone or touchscreen too.
There are two relays involved. One is on the 240V circuit; this powers the compressor itself. The other is on a 120V circuit and it used to just power the automatic tank drain. The second outlet on this relay now also powers the air dryer, so it is only on when the compressor is live.
Finished project:
It is really great having all this stuff out the the way (and quiet) in the attic.
Any photos/details on Alexa powering up and down of garage accessoriesI have completed "project dry air":
The HF air dryer came. It is clearly made of chinesium, but it works and is relatively quiet. If I have trouble with it you can be sure I'll share my angst here. But for now, all is good. Warning to those who buy this thing: It does NOT come with a power cord. I didn't notice that and thus the project was stalled while I sourced a suitable cord to use.
I went with the modern plastic 'snap in' air hose (via McMaster-carr). I have never really used this stuff before and it makes me a bit nervous, but I've seen enough threads where people use it to success that I went with it. I'm happy with the results.
I added a second outlet to the 120V relay output. To remind everyone, a key feature of my setup is the air compressor system is only on when I'm actually using the garage. It's tied into my smart home system such that it's powered up whenever the garage is in "occupied mode". When I tell Alexa to close up the garage ("Alexa, turn off upper garage all") the lights go out, the music stops playing, all doors close, and the air compressor turns off.
I can also manually turn on and off the compressor power with "Alexa, turn on/off the air compressor". Of course I can do all of this with touch commands on the phone or touchscreen too.
There are two relays involved. One is on the 240V circuit; this powers the compressor itself. The other is on a 120V circuit and it used to just power the automatic tank drain. The second outlet on this relay now also powers the air dryer, so it is only on when the compressor is live.
Finished project:
It is really great having all this stuff out the the way (and quiet) in the attic.
No photos, but here's how it worked at 2100 (the OG "Bald is Beautiful" shop):
- The home control system was Control4. This is a pro-install-only home automation system (I was CTO there). But this could be done with pretty much any home control system that has Alexa support.
- I used a 24VAC relay device that integrated into Control4 such that C4 knew how to turn on/off the relay. I don't recall the brand or model, but they are common. Input is Ethernet (or Wifi) and 24VAC; Output is either 0VAC (relay off) or 24VAC (relay on).
- The 24VAC from the relay went to the two pump controllers (one for the 220v compressor, the other for the 110v auto-drain valve).
- Thus, if the "smart" relay was "on", both the compressor and the auto-drain valve would have power.
- Alexa was configured such that it thought "Air Compressor" was a light. If I said "Alexa, turn on the air compressor", Alexa would tell Control4 "Turn on the light named Air Compressor". C4 would then turn the relay on. Etc...
I used the pump start relays (pump controllers) because they support high amperages. I considered using smart light switches that supported 220v, but none that I know of are rated to handle the high-amperage inrush that an air compressor pulls when turning on.
Garage Door opening/closing worked similarly, but is more complicated because of the need to have sensors for opened/closed. Also, back then, Alexa didn't support "Open/Close" verbs so I had to jump through hoops like "Alexa, Turn On Upper West Door". Ideally, I could have said "Alexa, Open Upper West Door" (which is now supported in Alexa along with a voice-code).
In my new "Bald is Beautiful" shop, also known as "Gruntled, HQ" I'm still using Control4 (because I know it well and as former CTO have access to it myself). However, I'm using a auto-drain valve that uses 24VAC instead of 110VAC, removing the need for the 2nd pump controller. Besides that it will (not actually all wired up yet) work the same.
This what you were looking for?
@tig my compliments on how you explained everything. I have no experience with home automation beyond basic Google rules and light switches but the way you wrote the summary of what you did was a fantastic balance between easy to understand for the layman with the technical requirements for an experienced user that either could implement. It's rare to see things explained to the level of detail you provided without them being over simplified or over complicated/technical. 
I put my 60 gallon upstairs above my garage shop. I have a switch downstairs to turn it on and off and a drain pipe that comes downstairs and then vents through the wall. I have a ball valve on the drain downstairs. It works, but the wiring is not legal because I don’t have a shutoff within sight upstairs. Probably eventually I will add one. The switch downstairs is rated for the motor power but looks like a light switch. I ran the wiring and piping in the wall with a recess for the ball valve and handle. Quieter, less clutter was my goal though presently my garage is a mess.