19w L.E.D. T8 rewire project

luke7734 · Dec 11, 2013

I was lucky enough to stumble apon a box of 10, led T8 bulbs at our local electronics surplus store one day and thought to myself, "you should buy these. . Don't know how or where I'll use them. . . But, I NEED these. .. " After a little negotiation I got the price down to $100 for the whole box. This has now proven a very smart purchase. I've gotten on the net and now see these bulbs are on ebay for about $30 a piece.. whoo hooo!

Anyways. Here's a little quick thread on how I cleaned up some old t8 fixtures and went eco smart on my lighting.

The guy I bought these from said they had to be direct wired to 120v, no ballast needed. One end is hot, other end is neutral. Simple as that. (Not all led lights are wired this way, please check with your manufacturer for proper wiring instructions)

Found some old fixtures I've had tucked away from one of me rentals and got to it. :rocker:

First removed the old bulbs, then took off the heat / light reflective sheild. This exposes the wiring and ballast and about a trillion dead whatever the hell was inside this thing.. I cut the wires as close to the ballast as possible, remove ballast and discard properly (I scrap them as electric motor)

. This leaves you some slack when direct wiring to your hot and neutral wires. As said before one end is hot, the other is neutral. . No difference or matter which is which for these exact bulbs I am using.

Next I cleaned up the shield and a quick dusting of some rattlecan white and back together it goes.. I did put new hex head machine screws in the sheild.

luke7734 · Dec 11, 2013

Insert new led t8 bulbs.. wire up to power and :scared:

... holy cow these bad boys are bright.. I literally had no idea how these would turn out..

Couple shots of what they look like on and off.. and one compared to a normal t8

6t7gto · Dec 11, 2013

Did you have to connect to both pins on each end?

luke7734 · Dec 11, 2013

6t7gto said:
Did you have to connect to both pins on each end?

You don't have to on these. Pretty sure they are tired together on the inside. I installed some at work (water treatment plant) and those ones were hot and neutral on the same end..then you just looped the other end together.. so those you had to make sure and install the correct way when putting the bulb in.. but these I have you can install either way.. won't hurt them.

jallt81 · Dec 12, 2013

A local car dealership recently installed LED light fixtures and they look great... I am also going to install LED lighting in my garage they are a little pricey but i think they will be worth it in the long run.. I was also told that since LED's dont put off as much heat as flourescent lighting therefore not attracting near as many BUGS

http://www.myledlightingguide.com/LED_High_Bay_4_Module_Low_Profile-details.aspx

these are the lights that I purchased

luke7734 · Dec 12, 2013

jallt81 said:
A local car dealership recently installed LED light fixtures and they look great... I am also going to install LED lighting in my garage they are a little pricey but i think they will be worth it in the long run.. I was also told that since LED's dont put off as much heat as flourescent lighting therefore not attracting near as many BUGS

http://www.myledlightingguide.com/LED_High_Bay_4_Module_Low_Profile-details.aspx

these are the lights that I purchased

222w for 4 bulbs! Holy $h!t... thats what 55w for each one.. those are gonna be blinding. Mine are just 19w each. Those are def pricey I would say. But if you've got a big shop and want the best I'd say those'll do it.. :thumbup:

Here's a pic of what a pair of 19w ones do in my shop.. these are laying on their back pointed up towards my rafters (17ft truss height -2ft on the chair) and yes no other lights are on amd it's pitch bkack outside.

67carl · Dec 12, 2013

What brand are they? I looked into some a few months ago but their reliability was iffy at best (according to the reviewers experiences). I ended up going with some regular T5's. I hope they work out for you.

luke7734 · Dec 12, 2013

67carl said:
What brand are they? I looked into some a few months ago but their reliability was iffy at best (according to the reviewers experiences). I ended up going with some regular T5's. I hope they work out for you.

These I'm sure are straight off the china ferry.. but they are lightdec... no idea where they can be bought.. never researched them. We've been using them at our plant for about 2 months now, 24-7. No issues yet.

And response to above again. Yes they save tons of electricity. Everone just looks at the wattage savings.. put your hand up against one of those ballasts one time if they've been on for an hour.. better have the burn ointment ready.. people must think all that heat is generated by leprechauns and magical unicorn *** inside them bad boys.. heat = energy = $ :evil:

jallt81 · Dec 13, 2013

Not sure about the brand havent recieved them yet... I sure hope they are bright.....

Luke77 How big are the overhead doors on the barn in your member picture

luke7734 · Dec 13, 2013

jallt81 said:
Luke77 How big are the overhead doors on the barn in your member picture

They are 14x12 and 9x9 HxW...

RABRods · Dec 13, 2013

I was just about to buy 8 4 bulb 8ft T8 fixtures for my garage, now it has me thinking...Yes the LED cost per bulb is higher but if there is less energy and less usage maybe its worth it. Do places sell just the ffixtures minus the ballast? If not its another additional cost to buy a standard T8 fixture and toss all the ballasts.

Maybe not great still, I just did the math, over $1000 just for the amouont of bulbs I would need....Maybe not viable yet.

luke7734 · Dec 13, 2013

RABRods said:
I was just about to buy 8 4 bulb 8ft T8 fixtures for my garage, now it has me thinking...Yes the LED cost per bulb is higher but if there is less energy and less usage maybe its worth it. Do places sell just the ffixtures minus the ballast? If not its another additional cost to buy a standard T8 fixture and toss all the ballasts.

Maybe not great still, I just did the math, over $1000 just for the amouont of bulbs I would need....Maybe not viable yet.

Need... or want... just a little food for thoight we actually dropped most of our 4 bulb fixtures down to 2 bulbs just because these are much brighter... remember these are directional lighting. Not like a standard t8 where you have to rely on the reflective sheild.

2ManyProjects · Dec 13, 2013

luke7734 said:
jallt81 said:

A local car dealership recently installed LED light fixtures and they look great... I am also going to install LED lighting in my garage they are a little pricey but i think they will be worth it in the long run.. I was also told that since LED's dont put off as much heat as flourescent lighting therefore not attracting near as many BUGS

http://www.myledlightingguide.com/LED_High_Bay_4_Module_Low_Profile-details.aspx

these are the lights that I purchased

Click to expand...

222w for 4 bulbs! Holy $h!t... thats what 55w for each one.. those are gonna be blinding. Mine are just 19w each. Those are def pricey I would say. But if you've got a big shop and want the best I'd say those'll do it..

On a raw lumens/watt basis, those are not bad -- rather impressive, even. But you'd need some EXTREMELY high ceilings in order to effectively use them. I don't buy their 12-foot minimum height claim for a New York Minute! Maybe 20-25 feet would do it; maybe not.

Here's a pic of what a pair of 19w ones do in my shop.. these are laying on their back pointed up towards my rafters (17ft truss height -2ft on the chair) and yes no other lights are on amd it's pitch bkack outside.

Unfortunately, that image is not definitive in any way; and it is probably more misleading than indicative, due to the difference between the way a camera works vs. the way our eyes work. Do you have any actual photometric data on the LED inserts you used?

And response to above again. Yes they save tons of electricity. Everone just looks at the wattage savings.. put your hand up against one of those ballasts one time if they've been on for an hour.. better have the burn ointment ready.. people must think all that heat is generated by leprechauns and magical unicorn *** inside them bad boys.. heat = energy = $

The ballast would not need to be all that inefficient to get seriously hot after an hour. That would be determined more by the fixture's ability to DISSIPATE whatever heat is generated, than the sheer amount of heat itself.

Most modern linear fluorescent lights ARE reasonably efficient, even by comparison to LED. A typical F54T5HO will do 90-95 lumens/watt; and even that ultra-pricey high-bay LED fixture cited above is only claiming 90-103 lumens/watt.

I fully expect general-purpose LED lighting to "get there", some day. But as of right now, it's just not enough of a mature technology to be any sort of bargain.

luke7734 · Dec 13, 2013

2ManyProjects said:
Unfortunately, that image is not definitive in any way; and it is probably more misleading than indicative, due to the difference between the way a camera works vs. the way our eyes work.

The ballast would not need to be all that inefficient to get seriously hot after an hour.

I fully expect general-purpose LED lighting to "get there", some day. But as of right now, it's just not enough of a mature technology to be any sort of bargain.

Yes. Cameras do adjust aperature to light settings.. look at my second post attachments. It has enough smarts to dial down enough you can see the individual leds.. trust me. They are bright..

Again... heat = energy = $ period... the led bulbs require no ballast and you can touch them with your face (which I think you should give a shot at with one of your ballasts) :evil:

As for being a bargain you need to see I only paid $10 a bulb for these.. and had old fixtures to convert for free.. don't know if your motormitch's tight wad friend, but thats a bargain in my book.. :dunno:

So thanks for the Debbie downer look into a otherwise "bright" conversation.. :flamethro

bcbsox · Dec 13, 2013

Get these put up yet? I'm thinking of doing the same in my garage.

luke7734 · Dec 13, 2013

bcbsox said:
Get these put up yet? I'm thinking of doing the same in my garage.

unfortunetly not yet.. :sad:

I'm still working on the living area of the building.. trying to get moved in before xmas

Spent last night putting in kitchen cabinets. Tonight will be more of the same (counter tops, trim, etc)

SOMEDAY... Probably first of the year before i get into the garage at all for more than getting supplies.. :dunno:

Fishplate · Dec 13, 2013

We bought some of these for our facility.

http://www.1sourceled.com/products-page/led/tl-series-led-tube-lights

Installed in 24-hour fixtures, and in hard-to-reach places. We've had some in for about a year now, and they have held up just fine. Plenty of light, too, though it's a bit different from a fluorescent tube.

The payback isn't all that quick (I think I figured 7 years), until you figure in the cost of somebody having to change a light in a stairwell...

luke7734 · Dec 13, 2013

Fishplate said:
We bought some of these for our facility.

http://www.1sourceled.com/products-page/led/tl-series-led-tube-lights

Installed in 24-hour fixtures, and in hard-to-reach places. We've had some in for about a year now, and they have held up just fine. Plenty of light, too, though it's a bit different from a fluorescent tube.

The payback isn't all that quick (I think I figured 7 years), until you figure in the cost of somebody having to change a light in a stairwell...

I don't know what you paid for yours but we got ours from a surplus here in town and our 24hr fixtures going from 40w bulbs to 19w are saving 185kw a year each in electricty. Roughly $20 each. :eyecrazy:

So with installing 40 of them 40x$20 = $800 a year in electric savings. . We only paid $400 for all of the bulbs... so they are most definetly "there" when it comes to technology. :thumbup:

NUTTSGT · Dec 28, 2013

Good read Luke and I do need to get over to "that place" :ninja:

and look around.

Where you old fixtures, T12 or T8 ? The last picture in #2 post looks like a T12 to T8 comparison.

luke7734 · Dec 28, 2013

NUTTSGT said:
Where you old fixtures, T12 or T8 ? The last picture in #2 post looks like a T12 to T8 comparison.

T8. The leds are quite a bit smaller. :shocking:

NUTTSGT · Dec 28, 2013

luke7734 said:
T8. The leds are quite a bit smaller.

Thanks

yab969 · Dec 28, 2013

doesn't seem wired up to code for me ... a modified apparrel isn't approuved anymore.

but safety wise ... hot socket, too small wire ( i think so, usually 14 awg 15 amp !?!! )
... even read hot and neutral on the same socket geeeezzzz !!!

just my point of view

Charles (in GA) · Dec 28, 2013

At work we have Woodhead Electric (div of Molex) portable flo lights

Which we daisy chain from the front to back of an aircraft cabin (tie them up to the air ducts), when it is stripped out. The equipment shop has converted some of these to the 4 ft T8 LED bulbs like you are showing, and they seem to work well. These lights take a beating and we have not had a moments trouble from them. The airplanes are equipped with T8 flo lamps in the cabin, of varying lengths depending on location, and all of the wire bundle ties located above the flo lamps are cooked and brittle. Heat is an issue with flo lights.

There is a convenience store near me that has changed all of their flo light bulbs out for the T8 LED bulbs, and they seem to provide lots of light........ rather expensive, but there is probably a payback somewhere.

Charles

luke7734 · Dec 28, 2013

I'm glad to hear that you're satisfied with the same type of lights at your work. Once these are set they pretty much are untouched forever I hope.
So you guys tear apart planes? Or just do rewiring?

Dick in Wisconsin · Dec 28, 2013

What was the change in watts from the Flour to the LED?

luke7734 · Dec 28, 2013

**** in Wisconsin said:
What was the change in watts from the Flour to the LED?

The old flo lights were 40w. The new t8 lights are 19w. This makes more than twice the energy savings.. plus the damn ballasts are gone.

Dick in Wisconsin · Dec 29, 2013

luke7734 said:
The old flo lights were 40w. The new t8 lights are 19w. This makes more than twice the energy savings.. plus the damn ballasts are gone.

How many tubes?

Any idea how much the current the ballasts drew?

Wondering how many watts per hour you're saving.

luke7734 · Dec 29, 2013

I have no clue on the ballasts usage.. but they get smoking hot.. so they've gotta be using some.. at 6 hours a day usage. . With ten bulbs going (that's how many they had left) I'm saving 21w per bulb X 10 bulbs X 6 hrs X 365 days a year = 459,900 watts per year. Thats roughly 460 kw. And at $.11 per kw that = $50.59 per year in savings. Then you have to figure your savings with no ballasts to replace... instant start in cold weather... it's really a no brainer..

luke7734 · Dec 29, 2013

Here's a few pics of the new lights ( well 2 of them ) I got installed this morning. :3gears:

First off just let me say I now envy the guys who have 12' or less ceilings.. :bowdown:

Got my *** up into the rafters with two (2) :shocking:

yes I said two ladders.. had to gwt myself on the top of the new pallet rack with one and then another on the pallet racking to get into the rafters (17' truss height).

First shot was just something to get my bearings set and kinda ease my mind and anyone else that came in and found me laying on the concrete not moving... all kidding aside I'm not scared of heights, but struggling to carry tools and these damn lights throughout the rafters was sketchy to say the least. :wtf:

Second shot is of my pallet racks that are 11' tall and to show how sweet they are.. next two show my LED spot lights I put up when I first did the garage.. (I had a man lift for these) then just some random pics to play "I spy" with

Lastly. Here's a shot of the 2 lights I got installed. They are blinding bright.. I still plan to install the other 3 fixtures I have yet to build sometime in the next week or so.. they'll be to the right of the ones now in the last pic, also right of the spots.

Hope everyone enjoys :thumbup:

alexandrio · Dec 30, 2013

Thank you for give very nice info.

luke7734 · Dec 30, 2013

yab969 said:
doesn't seem wired up to code for me ... a modified apparrel isn't approuved anymore.

but safety wise ... hot socket, too small wire ( i think so, usually 14 awg 15 amp !?!! )
... even read hot and neutral on the same socket geeeezzzz !!!

just my point of view

i think you need to read a little closer next time there chief... I used the same wires that were originally in the fixture (I'm using less power now) and the units are tied in to the 14awg feed (15amp breaker) which I would have to run 95 of these bulbs to even get the breaker to trip... so..... yeah... :thumbup:

yab969 · Jan 3, 2014

luke7734 said:
i think you need to read a little closer next time there chief... I used the same wires that were originally in the fixture (I'm using less power now) and the units are tied in to the 14awg feed (15amp breaker) which I would have to run 95 of these bulbs to even get the breaker to trip... so..... yeah...

hy there body ... yes that's the wires I'm refering to, the one that still tie to the socket, if I'm not wrong (doesn't have a ballast on hand to confirm) these wires might be 18 or 16 ... since the ballast is no more, the feed (14 awg) may be tap to smaller ones ??? that makes the thing direct to the breaker (15 amp) ... changing these wires, would the socket accept them (legally) ... are the socket rated for 15 amp ??? and so on ...

It seem mostly acceptable for me, I might even do it, have I a chance to got my hand on those bulbs ... I just wonder what the NEC says about that kind of modification ???

:bowdown:

jonathan75 · Jan 3, 2014

Good work Luke! Your new lights look great.

Please be careful up there. My stomach was churning just looking at your pictures. You can buy a safety bucket at Home Depot or someplace close to you for guys that do roofing. Just attach a solid anchor up there and attach the harness to yourself for extra safety.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/fall+protection?NCNI-5

luke7734 · Jan 3, 2014

jonathan75 said:
Good work Luke! Your new lights look great.

Please be careful up there. My stomach was churning just looking at your pictures. You can buy a safety bucket at Home Depot or someplace close to you for guys that do roofing. Just attach a solid anchor up there and attach the harness to yourself for extra safety.

http://www.homedepot.com/s/fall+protection?NCNI-5

I was being as careful as I could trust me. I didnt like it much either..

yab969 said:
hy there body ... yes that's the wires I'm refering to, the one that still tie to the socket, if I'm not wrong (doesn't have a ballast on hand to confirm) these wires might be 18 or 16 ... since the ballast is no more, the feed (14 awg) may be tap to smaller ones ??? that makes the thing direct to the breaker (15 amp) ... changing these wires, would the socket accept them (legally) ... are the socket rated for 15 amp ??? and so on ...

It seem mostly acceptable for me, I might even do it, have I a chance to got my hand on those bulbs ... I just wonder what the NEC says about that kind of modification ???

I understand what your trying to say, but I reused the same wires that the old ballasts were wired to.. (18awg solid), but the fact still remains.. these are factory lights so they had to be code. So unless the bulb has some kind of serious malfunction, which is under no ones control.

happy2rv · Jan 16, 2014

I've been reading the posts and instructions on converting fluorescent T-8 fixtures to LED and wondering what happens when someone comes behind you and puts a fluorescent tube in to replace the LED in the fixture that has no ballast and 120V either across the tube or the two pins on one end. I tried searching and couldn't find anything, so what happens? I assume nothing too terribly good, but then if it was really bad I wouldn't expect them to be advising the conversion without somehow preventing putting fluorescent bulbs back in.

luke7734 · Jan 17, 2014

Great question, here's what Google spit out.

All fluorescent bulbs, including fluorescent tubes and compact fluorescent bulbs, require ballasts. If a light bulb that required ballasts were powered without its ballast, the bulb would instantly overheat and burn out immediately, according to the Lighting Research Center.

It says in the article that the ballast is used primarily to regulate the flow of electricity through the bulb / fixtures. Kinda like a governor on a small engine.. without the ballast fluctuations in the current will overheat the gasses and cause them to burn out.

Nothing was said on the dangerous end ie: explosions.. just the bulb will die almost immediately. :thumbup:

great question! Glad I know now also..

19w L.E.D. T8 rewire project

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