To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

New Milling machine, Delta Rockwell 21-100

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
This is my first mill, I got it for a rediculously cheap price and it came with two mill vices. The machine was damaged from a person trying to move it and dropped it on the front crank. This cracked the crank and the motor mount.

Im looking where to get collets and good bits.

I found this for collets:
http://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/R8-Collets-and-Tooling/380.html

and as a starter for bits:
http://www.harborfreight.com/20-piece-titanium-nitrade-coated-end-mill-set-5947.html

I have to determine the wiring of the machine aswell, the wires were cut at the motor. This should be no problem, ill just check for ground as its a 120v/240v setup, aka single phase.

When the front crank broke, it seems ot have bent something inside, possibly the crank shaft or the mount for the shaft. Its slightly hard to turn when the table shim is in place.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Kevin54

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
My advice, and I've been machining almost my whole life.....skip the HF endmills, and get a Travers, Enco, MSC catalog. The offshore endmills are good endmills. For starters, get a couple 3/16", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" two flute and four flute. Look for a relatively inexpensive collet SET. The set of collets will cover the size ranges from 1/16" up to 3/4".

DO NOT worry about titanium coated endmills, DO NOT worry about carbide end mills. If you jump into things that far right out of the gate, you will ruin the endmills, and will have tossed good money away. If you get HSS, you may ruin them, but you will only be out a few dollars, instead of $20-$30 or more for one endmill.

Practice with what you have, learn some feeds and speeds, learn about conventional cutting vs. climb cutting, learn about your "X" +/-, and your "Y" +/- directions, learn about backlash. Practice using all of this with cheaper endmills.

When the front crank broke, it seems ot have bent something inside, possibly the crank shaft or the mount for the shaft. Its slightly hard to turn when the table shim is in place.

Also learn some of the terminology. A mill does not have a crankshaft. An engine has a crankshaft and a mill has a leadscrew. A table shim is a gib. And don't take it wrong, I'm just telling you this so that if no one is around to answer your questions, you can do an online search and find something out. There are some machinist sites out there. Some are really great, and others will treat a newbie like a *************. Totally different than Garage Journal where almost 100% of the members are helpful.

Just a quick BING search for "Milling Machine Terminology" turns up all sorts of pics to help you out. That way, you know what to call it, so if you have to possibly buy a new part, you can do a search for that name, plus your brand and part number.

millfig1.gif


milling-machine-terminology.jpg



Here is a link and a video on the Welding Web of a person that has one http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?284711-Rockwell-Delta-small-shop-Mill-21-100

Here is another search for images of the mill that you have, that you may be able to get some needed parts or know where to locate the parts if you go to the link of the pic and possibly ask the person that posted the pic. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...lling+machine+terminology&sc=0-27&sp=-1&sk=#a

ALSO......you are going to need a vise for the mill if you don't have one, and you will also need a clamping set if you don't have one. There are a lot of machinist on here including myself, and you can ask anything you want. Machining is one of my greatest passions, and I'd be afraid to guess how many pounds of chips I have made over the years.

Good luck with your new mill...sorry to hear what happened to it....but once you get it working correctly, you'll also have been familiar with some of it on a first hand basis.

And always remember....respect the machine, but never be afraid of it. Even a small end mill, and a wrong move on your part, can cause some serious bodily harm.

I always tell anyone that I have taught machining to....."become one with the machine. See with your mind and not your eyes, what exactly the machine is doing. Listen to every sound, feel every motion of the table, learn what amount of backlash each direction has." And don't get me wrong, I don't mean to run it with your eyes shut, but a great machine does not make a great machinist. A great machinist can make a great part on a POS machine, once they become one with the machine and know what it does, sounds like, and is capable of.
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
Don't waste your money on HF end mills. You really need to investigate the damage first and see what's broken.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
My advice, and I've been machining almost my whole life.....skip the HF endmills, and get a Travers, Enco, MSC catalog. The offshore endmills are good endmills. For starters, get a couple 3/16", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" two flute and four flute. Look for a relatively inexpensive collet SET. The set of collets will cover the size ranges from 1/16" up to 3/4".

DO NOT worry about titanium coated endmills, DO NOT worry about carbide end mills. If you jump into things that far right out of the gate, you will ruin the endmills, and will have tossed good money away. If you get HSS, you may ruin them, but you will only be out a few dollars, instead of $20-$30 or more for one endmill.

Practice with what you have, learn some feeds and speeds, learn about conventional cutting vs. climb cutting, learn about your "X" +/-, and your "Y" +/- directions, learn about backlash. Practice using all of this with cheaper endmills.



Also learn some of the terminology. A mill does not have a crankshaft. An engine has a crankshaft and a mill has a leadscrew. A table shim is a gib. And don't take it wrong, I'm just telling you this so that if no one is around to answer your questions, you can do an online search and find something out. There are some machinist sites out there. Some are really great, and others will treat a newbie like a *************. Totally different than Garage Journal where almost 100% of the members are helpful.

Just a quick BING search for "Milling Machine Terminology" turns up all sorts of pics to help you out. That way, you know what to call it, so if you have to possibly buy a new part, you can do a search for that name, plus your brand and part number.

millfig1.gif


milling-machine-terminology.jpg



Here is a link and a video on the Welding Web of a person that has one http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?284711-Rockwell-Delta-small-shop-Mill-21-100

Here is another search for images of the mill that you have, that you may be able to get some needed parts or know where to locate the parts if you go to the link of the pic and possibly ask the person that posted the pic. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...lling+machine+terminology&sc=0-27&sp=-1&sk=#a

ALSO......you are going to need a vise for the mill if you don't have one, and you will also need a clamping set if you don't have one. There are a lot of machinist on here including myself, and you can ask anything you want. Machining is one of my greatest passions, and I'd be afraid to guess how many pounds of chips I have made over the years.

Good luck with your new mill...sorry to hear what happened to it....but once you get it working correctly, you'll also have been familiar with some of it on a first hand basis.

And always remember....respect the machine, but never be afraid of it. Even a small end mill, and a wrong move on your part, can cause some serious bodily harm.

I always tell anyone that I have taught machining to....."become one with the machine. See with your mind and not your eyes, what exactly the machine is doing. Listen to every sound, feel every motion of the table, learn what amount of backlash each direction has." And don't get me wrong, I don't mean to run it with your eyes shut, but a great machine does not make a great machinist. A great machinist can make a great part on a POS machine, once they become one with the machine and know what it does, sounds like, and is capable of.

$_57.JPG

I found this image, im going to use to learn all the parts. (I have the other image with the rest of the parts aswell)


Thanks man, I had seen some of the terms before, but forgot. I know how it is getting into a new hobby and people flaming you trying to learn.

This cross feed lead-screw, when I remove the bearing holder (3 screws) and tap it out with a brass hammer, the lead screw lowers a bit. When I go to re-install the bearing holder I have to lift significantly on the cross feed lead screw to install the bearing holder. This is where I feel like my dragging is happening. I let the lead screw rest where it wants and I spun it inside the feed nut body and I cannot see an egg type motion that you would see with bent items.

I need to figure out how to remove the table to take a look at the feed nut body to see if its cracked and bent. If so I can fix this. If i remove the gib, it still has tension. Also, i cannot get the gib to go all the way flush. I looked for some imperfections and saw a few scratches which I fixed with a fine file. But the gib is still hanging out the front about 1/4". I cleaned the channel for it also. I was in the process of cleaning and applying grease to sliding components when I discovered the issues. With the lead screw removed and the gib pushed to where it stops, 1/4" sticking out, I can slide the table by hand easily. If I push the gib in with a brass hammer to flush, it is very hard to slide the table and binds up.

I am not new to troubleshooting various things, but this has me stumped. I can only figure it has something to do with the way the machine fell on this cross feed hand wheel, which broke. I will weld this back together, and yes I know its cast.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
Also, Ive noticed many do not use quick change chucks, like what drills/drill presses have on mills. My buddy at his machine shop he use to work at had a quick change chuck, or atleast it looked like one.

I did read the collets are better for less runout.

I will be using this more for drilling purposes than milling, well as of right now haha.

Is it better to use a regular drill bit for projects in a collet, or just use the end mills for drilling holes? I do a lot of work with automotive fab, mostly 1/8-1/4" steel where I need to drill holes.

The main reason I was after a drill press and then found this, was because I have to drill 3/4" holes in my steering components for my new heim joints. I was told if done by hand and it is slightly off the bolt will rock and crack components. So this is why I now own a mill haha.:thumbup:
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
There isn't really such thing as a quick change chuck on a mill. You must use collets (on anything that isn't a machining center. Drill chucks aren't meant to take radial loads like you get from milling. Very bad idea to use a drill chuck with an end mill.

Like Kevin said, start with some nice HSS bits. They aren't super expensive, can be sharpened easily by a service and you won't cry if you break one off or gum it up.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
I have to figure out the wiring on the motor.... My buddy cut the wires because we were going to direct wire it to check if it worked. and he didnt pay attention to which color the output wires were. So now im stuck with 3 blue.

I was going to check them vs ground and determine my ground.

Are these motors DC or AC? I believe AC.
 

Kevin54

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
Thanks man, I had seen some of the terms before, but forgot. I know how it is getting into a new hobby and people flaming you trying to learn.

This cross feed lead-screw, when I remove the bearing holder (3 screws) and tap it out with a brass hammer, the lead screw lowers a bit. When I go to re-install the bearing holder I have to lift significantly on the cross feed lead screw to install the bearing holder. This is where I feel like my dragging is happening. I let the lead screw rest where it wants and I spun it inside the feed nut body and I cannot see an egg type motion that you would see with bent items.

I need to figure out how to remove the table to take a look at the feed nut body to see if its cracked and bent. If so I can fix this. If i remove the gib, it still has tension. Also, i cannot get the gib to go all the way flush. I looked for some imperfections and saw a few scratches which I fixed with a fine file. But the gib is still hanging out the front about 1/4". I cleaned the channel for it also. I was in the process of cleaning and applying grease to sliding components when I discovered the issues. With the lead screw removed and the gib pushed to where it stops, 1/4" sticking out, I can slide the table by hand easily. If I push the gib in with a brass hammer to flush, it is very hard to slide the table and binds up.

I am not new to troubleshooting various things, but this has me stumped. I can only figure it has something to do with the way the machine fell on this cross feed hand wheel, which broke. I will weld this back together, and yes I know its cast.

One thing I WILL NEVER DO, is flame someone for trying to learn on running a machine. I also hope that no one else on here would try to flame someone either. If so, then they need to be put into detention for a few days. :thumbup:

Machining parts is a whole different world. There are so many things that can go wrong. BUT....machining is really no different, than any other job that entails revolving and moving parts. You have to be very careful. Even though I have been doing this for close to 40 years, I have never failed to respect a machine, even my own.

One small distraction can mean injuries, or it can mean that the job or part that you have been working on for two weeks straight, just went out into the scrap bin. You not only lose time, you are also out the money you spent for material.

I'm retired and on disability, so what I machine, I do as I feel able. But in the shop, you don't have that luxury. I am sure that A_Pmech can tell you that as he does what he does, as a full time business for others, just as there are many more on here that rely on machining as their sole Bread and Butter.

A machinist takes what they do VERY seriously. And I am not going to discriminate, because the Airplane Mechanics on here, the Auto Mechanics on here, and all of the other jobs that people do on a daily........almost all, take their job very seriously. Screwing off, giving people **** advice, just does not cut it, when trying to help someone else get into the profession, or when they want to learn just for a hobby. I am sure that anyone on here would feel really ******, if they were clowning around and gave some ******** advice, only to hear that the person they gave it to got seriously hurt, lost a limb, digit, or even a life.

I may be the type that likes to joke around, but I am very serious when it comes to machining. If you ask my advice, you're in my world now, and I will do what I can to make sure you don't get hurt. I'm also sure that A_P, Outlaw, and all of the other machinist will tell you the same. :thumbup::thumbup:
 

Kevin54

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
One other item that I forgot to tell you that you will need is a dial indicator, and an arm that will fit into a collet.

This is what you will need to "TRAM" the head in. By TRAMMING a head of a mill, means that your "quill" is exactly vertical in both the "X" & "Y" axis. Your vertical axis is called your "Z" Axis. You want to sweep the indicator in a complete 360 degree circle. Once you do that, and you get the indicator to read zero, or any given marking, as far as .005, .010, or wherever you choose on the dial, you want the same reading in all 360 degrees. Before you decide to buy a brand new indicator and arm, myself, or maybe some other members will show you what you need. But you won't need this until you get the other bugs worked out, as far as the table, handwheel, leadscrew, and everything adjusted.

If you get a chance, and if no literature came with the mill, look on EBay for a manual for your mill. Try to find an Operating manual, and also for a Maintenance manual. Both will be very valuable.

And like I stated before, DO NOT be afraid to ask any questions. Myself for one, I'll try to ask question you have, if I have the answer. If I don't, I'll dop my best to find you some resources to look at. :thumbup:
 

APEowner

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
4,164
Location
Sunny, New Mexico
I will be using this more for drilling purposes than milling, well as of right now haha.

Is it better to use a regular drill bit for projects in a collet, or just use the end mills for drilling holes? I do a lot of work with automotive fab, mostly 1/8-1/4" steel where I need to drill holes.

Drill bits are still the best tool for drilling holes and while you do not want to put an end mill in one a drill chuck is the best way to hold a drill bit.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
One other item that I forgot to tell you that you will need is a dial indicator, and an arm that will fit into a collet.

This is what you will need to "TRAM" the head in. By TRAMMING a head of a mill, means that your "quill" is exactly vertical in both the "X" & "Y" axis. Your vertical axis is called your "Z" Axis. You want to sweep the indicator in a complete 360 degree circle. Once you do that, and you get the indicator to read zero, or any given marking, as far as .005, .010, or wherever you choose on the dial, you want the same reading in all 360 degrees. Before you decide to buy a brand new indicator and arm, myself, or maybe some other members will show you what you need. But you won't need this until you get the other bugs worked out, as far as the table, handwheel, leadscrew, and everything adjusted.

If you get a chance, and if no literature came with the mill, look on EBay for a manual for your mill. Try to find an Operating manual, and also for a Maintenance manual. Both will be very valuable.

And like I stated before, DO NOT be afraid to ask any questions. Myself for one, I'll try to ask question you have, if I have the answer. If I don't, I'll dop my best to find you some resources to look at. :thumbup:

I have a lot of fine reading tools like dial indicators. I do a lot of gear setting in vehicles. Im not new to moving parts, but I do agree with your warning. I have seen many people get injured when they dont pay attention.

I also found this for my mill. Manual.


I was just cleaning and lubing everything up when I discovered the toughness of the cross-feed. I was using a fine film of wheel bearing grease after cleaning everything. I think this grease might have taken away from tolerances; I had cleaned it off very well after i saw it got hard to move. But, no differences. I see the operators manual specifies SAE 10. Time to clean off the grease haha.



I was reading earlier about setting Gibs in that manual. It doesnt seem like it has to be fully flush on both ends. As long as nothing moves and the table tracs straight it appears to be fine. Could I be wrong?
 
Last edited:

retrobuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
408
Location
Alpharetta GA
Great info from Kevin. Really good terminology info as well.

There is an Ebay dealer which specializes in older obsolete mills..I'll look it up for you.

A few good tools sites.. MSC Direct, Enco, small scale - Little Machine Shop

Interstate makes some decent endmills. Not sure what you will be cutting but I prefer single side , 3,4 flute tools.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
:needpics:

I love me some Delta Rockwell!!

Soon, very soon (aka when i get home)


I saw this for collets,

http://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/R8-Collets-and-Tooling/380.html

I also found sets for about 60-100$.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-pc-Precision-R-8-Collet-Set/G1646

and HSS end mills.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/20-pc-HSS-End-Mill-Set/G9756

I think a 16 piece set would do me, the 32 sounds like overkill. But do i need 1/32 sets to use say a 11/32 drill bit?


My main concern before any is making sure I re-wire this motor up correctly and making sure it works... :shocking::shocking:

Im an electrical engineer but Im a small wire guy, AC motors arent something I mess with. The manual I linked has wiring for the different motors. Mine states 120/240V on the side of the name plate. This to me is single phase. Ive wired up a lot of house so I know what Im doing with AC, but this motor has 3 wires attached in a single wire nut, and 3 wires that are now bare at the ends and run into the motor. They were attached to a 12-2 cable (green black white). Im assuming one of the outputs from the motor is ground. I can check this with a DMM set to continuity and touch the case. If this works the other two are obviously hot and it doesnt matter which hot goes where other than how the switch will reverse the motor.

Am i describing this wrong or is this how I should check it. I dont wanna open this thing up haha.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
This was how I found the mill when i got to the persons house..

451d2102f9a19977bdee5c0ee8543154.jpg


Sent a guy to hospital with 27 stitches.
 

larry_g

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
16,877
Location
oregon
I was just cleaning and lubing everything up when I discovered the toughness of the cross-feed. I was using a fine film of wheel bearing grease after cleaning everything. I think this grease might have taken away from tolerances; I had cleaned it off very well after i saw it got hard to move. But, no differences. I see the operators manual specifies SAE 10. Time to clean off the grease haha.



I was reading earlier about setting Gibs in that manual. It doesn't seem like it has to be fully flush on both ends. As long as nothing moves and the table tracks straight it appears to be fine. Could I be wrong?

As for the SAE #10 I believe that it is for the thrust bearings on the lead screws. The ways call out for a Marfak #0 which is a grease. That said I believe that I would take that information with a bit skepticism as this is an Army manual. Most flat ways are lubed with a way oil and at the time the manual was written way oil may not have been common in all areas that this mill may have been used so they used the best they had available at all locations. Today you have some good way oils available to you so I would suggest you use one.

As for adjusting the gibs you basically want zero clearance but yet have smooth sliding motion. If to loose chattering and table jumping happen. To tight an it's hard to move. On an old mill like this you also have wear to deal with so the table may be worn more in one area than another. That causes one area to be loose and another to be tight. If you have ways worn in the middle, most common, they will get tight if you move it to either end of full travel. I have at times adjusted things to be able to have precision in a small area, or loosened things if I have to mill something long that uses the full travel of the axis. So adjust you gibs to do the best in your work area. If your doing a lot of small parts then you can find a work area where the ways serve you best. If you work to the max travels then you may have some loose spots.

Some advise to move your vise around on the table so you don't use the same area of the table travel all the time. I try to do that. My machine is worn in the middle so I bias the vise to one side or the other each time I mount it.

lg
no neat sig line
 

nine4gmc

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
14,357
Location
Dallas
That hurts my heart Dugan, is the mill alright? :( Looks like a "hold my beer" moment...
 

Strouty

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Messages
38,215
Location
Southern Maine
I bought a lathe that did that, just bought another one, since repairing the damaged one was going to be a pain without having a lathe to make parts on.

I would verify things are in working order before going crazy buying parts. You can spend more money on the parts than a decent priced mill. Hopefully you can get parts for it and it didn't destroy the screw, if it looks like it just broke the handle, it could have also damaged the bearings/bushings from the impact.
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
Hopefully you got it for dirt cheap after that. An incident like that can easily render a machine more expensive to fix than it's worth....Strouty is the man to ask...
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
Initially she wanted 200$ after it fell. When I showed up and realized what was broken, I got the mill, a STEEL slider bench vice(not cast) and its huge, and the two mill vices for 200. Then I saw she had a nice locking metal cabinet. I paid an extra 50 for that with keys. I got a hell of a steal.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
That hurts my heart Dugan, is the mill alright? :( Looks like a "hold my beer" moment...

The front crank handle is broken. Ill weld that back on.

One of the two motor mount bolt holes on the top is cracked, but lines up fine. Ill prob bevel it out slightly and put a good tack weld in there to be safe.

and the wiring is now unknown.


Also the hardness of turning the cross feed screw. I really think I can solve this with the GIB adjustment. I believe when I removed the gib last night I could turn it very easy. But ill verify tonight.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE


Loaded up.



Unloading at home.



Sitting in the middle of the floor. I hit the whole thing with purple power and watched all the grease and grime from the last 50 years run right off it.

If you click on the images you can see the full size
 
Last edited:

Guster

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
1,543
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Ouch!

My guess is if tightens in sections of rotation ie. 1-5 o'clock the leadscrew is either bent or the thrust bearings, bearing journal is damaged. If it gets tighter along a section of travel the threads are damaged. Bearings are cheap, leadscrews can be straightened and new leadscrews and leadscrew nuts can be machined or bought in some cases. Good excuse to buy a capable lathe as well :)

I suggest you systematically disassemble, clean and reassemble the machine. You'll learn how it works, how to maintain it and how to tune it in for best performance. Lot of instructions, videos and examples... even on this forum. Spraying purple power at it will just clean the outside and not address swarf caught in the ways, gummed up components etc. You've already learned about using the right lubes... next don't use abrasives to clean machined surfaces though extra fine steel wool or similar rated cleaning pads(like 3m or Norton) works well to remove stubborn build-ups. Be aware that if you do plan on taking the quill apart that the quill spring is a right of passage for anyone doing this and that the quill assembly itself is a high precision piece of equipment with expensive bearings finely adjusted with shims and pre-load in cases - no need to mess with it unless runout and play indicates bearings need to be replaced.

Now the motor - should have a terminal box on it. 3 wires commonly indicates single phase. One will be tied to the motor and machine housing... earth. Finding the other two will take you the rest of the way to connecting it up. Post up photos if you need further help. The switch box is usually between motor and plug too and should also help understand the motor wiring. Drawing a diagram helps.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
10505619_10152273832445967_25450732340111876_n.jpg

All the specs, and how to wire it up? Im an electrical engineer but ive never seen a pole diagram like this. But then again im I&C not big wire.


10353025_10152273832330967_7523358791200203975_n.jpg

3 wires I have no idea where they go.

https://scontent-b-iad.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/1924353_10152273832495967_1860338580888511380_n.jpg
One of the unknowns is #8

https://scontent-b-iad.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10559843_10152273832530967_3014280421737156428_n.jpg
Another has this 815 tag. While the 3rd unknown is blank with no tag.

10478190_10152273832820967_950686607972082155_n.jpg

These three #3 #2 #5 all are tied together with a wire nut.

#8 and one of the 2 other unknowns have continuity.

The only possibly choices for the two unknowns are #4 and #1. Which is which? Haha
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
71b269184c26db0aba2c357bbebea872.png


Refering to manual, I found its my neutral and one hot leads. Now which is which, dammit.


Also it looks like I should be grounding the case since I dont have a ground.
 

1953mercury

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Messages
701
Location
Steamboat Springs CO
If you are wiring it 230 single phase, the other two wires (non ground/neutral wires) are hot and are interchangeable, but they will change Motor rotation in that switch position If I'm interpreting the drawings correctly. You may have to tear the motor down to find out where your mystery wires terminate. Good hunting, Mike
 
Last edited:

larry_g

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
16,877
Location
oregon
According to my Electric Motor Repair book (1970 edition) wires 1&2 are a set of run winding's, wires 3&4 are run winding's and 5&8 are the start winding's. So 1&2 should show continuity, 3&4 also. 5&8 will only show continuity if the start switch is closed, which it should be when stopped but be aware there is the start cap in there also so your initial continuity will head for open as the cap charges, just like checking a cap. This should allow you to identify your unmarked wires.

If you need help with the switch the above book is worth buying and anyone messing with motors should consider it.

lg
no neat sig line
 
Last edited:

Guster

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
1,543
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
That matches my understanding Larry_G and swapping #5 and #8 will change the motor direction if it is that start winding, matching the pole diagram on that motor. Handy if you powertap or wanting to 'bore' OD's without needing right-handed tooling.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
Another thing I don't get. If switching 5 & 8 reverses motor. Then why is 5 not going to the 3 pole switch. Wouldnt that make more sense for switching directions?
 

Kevin54

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
Dugan.....as far as the motor, I'm no help there, but as far as adjusting the gib......have fun. And you are correct, they will not set flush. There are different types of adjustments for the gibs. One type may have a screw at each end, you loosen one screw to tighten the other screw and visa versa.

Another type may have just one screw and the gib will have a slot where the screw head rides. You then adjust this back and forth until you get the right setting.

Depending on how well the mill was made, how much the mill was used, and how much preventative maintenance was done on the mill, you will either have an easy time of getting it adjusted, or it will just be a real ***** kitty to gt adjusted.

Almost any mill that has any age on it will have wear on it in an area of maybe 6" each way of center, give or take. That is because that area of around 12" (6" right & 6" left) combined is the normal table travel. Sometimes the table gets used in the full range of travel, but that is only on certain occasions. The rest of the time it is just in and out, left and right, using only a few inches of travel. So when adjusting your gib, you may hit that sweet spot where everything feels just as nice as can be, but when you move the table the full range of travel, the further you go, the tighter the table will become in both directions. So then you have to try to find a sweet spot again that lets you have use of the full length of travel without having too much play.

You will want to set up an indicator and run your table in the "X" axis, all the way to the left (or to the right). Then set the indicator so it is zeroed in on the back side of the table at the end that is towards the center of the mill head, then run the table all of the way in other direction ("X") and see if there is any variation. You don't want any more than .001-.003. And that will be good for that type of mill with that kind of age on it.

If you find that the table is way off, then something got drastically bent when dropped. About the only thing that would cause the table to run out would be a bent leadscrew and a real bad gib. Or it could possibly have damaged dovetails, but I would find that highly unusual. Chances are it would be a bad gib. I do have an extra copy of Home Shop Machinist that shows how to scrape in the ways of a table. Not something I would want to attempt, but if you are fearless, you can do it. And it is something that MAY have to be done to reduce any drastic play in the mill. But before doing that, it would also entail having a brand new gib installed. One thing you may want to do is get some fine sandpaper, some double sided tape, and a perfectly flat surface. Tape the sheet of sandpaper down and work the gib until the two sides that run against the dovetail are perfectly flat. You may want to do this anyways before even trying to adjust the gibs.

Along with adjusting the gibs, you will want to try and get out as much backlash as you can. On an older mill, .005-.010 backlash is acceptable. Your backlash, if you are not familiar with the term is for example.....you turn the handwheel clockwise for a few revolutions. Now you turn the wheel counterclockwise, and the freeplay between where you stopped, and to where the table engages again, is your backlash. It is the freeplay in between stopping, changing direction, and engaging again. Sometimes it can be adjusted out, but if there is a lot of backlash, then it may take a new leadscrew and nut in the table where the leadscrew rides through. As I stated before about adjusting the gib, and a table only getting mostly used in a certain distance, the leadscrew nut and leadscrew will also get worn. Just imagine 50 years of running a bolt through a nut back and forth thousands, if not hundreds of thousands times.

As far as scraping in a table and the ways, you can usually tell how much use or abuse the mill has had by the looks of the ways. Normally there is a pattern on the areas, and when worn, that pattern is missing, or you will see deep gouges. Depending again, on how well you get things adjusted, will also determine if things need to be scraped in, new gibs, and so on. I can send you the spare magazines I have about scraping in. I have never done it, and hopefully won't ever have to, although I have seen it done on a number of occasions. I'm not certain, but I believe A_Pmech has done it, and may have had a tutorial on it. But either way, you are welcome to the magazines.

I know that you said you had put grease on the gears, and/or the leadscrews. I know that Bridgeports have an oiling system. I don't know about a Rockwell. You want to make sure that you use what is called out. A lot of times, oil is used over grease because the dirt and chips will not stick to the oiled parts like it would to a greased part. If you haven't done so yet, if I were you, I would pull the table off, and clean everything thoroughly, then reassemble and adjust. I don't know whether you are done cleaning it or not, but if the motor isn't mounted back up, and you are still cleaning it, don't be afraid to take a power washer or steam Jennie to it, and get it as clean as you can. Then while things are apart, give it a nice new coat of paint.

Once you have things all clean and painted, the gibs adjusted and so on, that mill should last you for a very long while. I worked at Rockwell back in '78-'80 as a Setup Man and Group Leader, and we manufactured a lot of those mills, drill presses, lathes, and so on. Rockwell made some really nice and well built smaller machines.

Good luck with things, and be sure to keep us up to date with pics and processes that you are going through to get it back in shape. :thumbup:

One other thing I forgot to mention when it comes to cleaning.....if you look at the screw for raising the table...the hole that is in the knee of the mill (the area the screw is going into) that area is a haven for hidden chips and such. If you just happen to take an airhose to that area to blow the chips out, make sure you have safety glasses on, as it can hold quite a bit of trash in there. I have the area circled in the picture.
 

Attachments

  • Rockwell Mill.jpg
    Rockwell Mill.jpg
    137.2 KB · Views: 153
Last edited:
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
Im currently on lunch at work, i can report that the with the gib removed its still hard to turn. I took readings with a 1/4 inlb dial scale that I use to determine preload on axles. I cannot report the readings right now but,

Everything but the crossfeed was between 4-14inlbs, no prob

The crossfeed was 38-42inlb if i remember correctly without a gib installed.


Its not impossible to turn, but it could be easier. and a gib will only make it harder.


Ill finish reading your points later tonight. Again thanks for all the time patience and help on this!
 

Guster

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
1,543
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Another thing I don't get. If switching 5 & 8 reverses motor. Then why is 5 not going to the 3 pole switch. Wouldnt that make more sense for switching directions?

Beacuse the drumswitch is changing the relative polarity of the start winding winding through that of the run windings. More than one way to skin the cat.
 

iajonesy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
2,467
Location
Iowa
I have a little trick to add to Kevin's advise on "sweeping the head" of your mill. If you take a piece of thick glass that is slightly wider than the mill table,the indicator will be much easier to read and the head will be easier to adjust to ZERO. Hope this helps a little.

Mike
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
Longitudinal feed:
Right - 2 inlb
Left - 4 inlb

Table Raise:
Up - 12 inlb
Down - 4 inlb

Cross Feed:
In - 38 inlb
Out - 38 inlb



Thats a lot of drag somewhere. That was with no gib on the crossfeed.


Also, How do i remove the table to inspect?

I have removed the cross feed screw, removed the gib.

Do I need to remove the longitudinal screw and gib and the table should come right off? Im usually pretty good about taking stuff apart, but this stumps me.
 

Strouty

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Messages
38,215
Location
Southern Maine
Hopefully it will just be bushings that took the hit, but after seeing my lathe tip over (slowly, almost controlled) and the carnage it did, you may find out it is going to get expensive. At least you got the machine for the right price, so if you do spend some money on a new screw, it won't hurt too bad.

At least when my lathe went over, no one got hurt, except the sellers pride and wallet.
 
OP
D

Dugan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
605
Location
New Castle, DE
Hopefully it will just be bushings that took the hit, but after seeing my lathe tip over (slowly, almost controlled) and the carnage it did, you may find out it is going to get expensive. At least you got the machine for the right price, so if you do spend some money on a new screw, it won't hurt too bad.

At least when my lathe went over, no one got hurt, except the sellers pride and wallet.

truely, if it comes down to it, it works. I just cant be a woman about turning it. Ill have to fabricate a new handle and crank for it. I could always go oversized and that would make it easier. Well see.



Ok i just went out and tested leads as per instruction from you guys.

#1 & #4 are my current unknowns.

#2 and an unknown(has 815 plate on it) had continuity.
#3 and an unknown had continuity.

If you were right, and im sure you are. #1 should have the 815 name plate on it and #4 should be the one that had continuity with #3.


Heres where things get weird.

When I hook my pos lead to #8, and neg lead to #5 I get continuity... for like 3 seconds and it stops beeping.
-Can remove leads and touch again, nothing.
-Turn off machine, no change.

But if I now put my pos lead on #5 and neg on #8 I get the 3 second beep again. And as long as i keep switching the leads they will beep. Is this showing sometype of AC potential??

Obviously they have continuity, even for a short time, but they are still correlated.
 

Strouty

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Messages
38,215
Location
Southern Maine
truely, if it comes down to it, it works. I just cant be a woman about turning it. Ill have to fabricate a new handle and crank for it. I could always go oversized and that would make it easier. Well see.



Ok i just went out and tested leads as per instruction from you guys.

#1 & #4 are my current unknowns.

#2 and an unknown(has 815 plate on it) had continuity.
#3 and an unknown had continuity.

If you were right, and im sure you are. #1 should have the 815 name plate on it and #4 should be the one that had continuity with #3.


Heres where things get weird.

When I hook my pos lead to #8, and neg lead to #5 I get continuity... for like 3 seconds and it stops beeping.
-Can remove leads and touch again, nothing.
-Turn off machine, no change.

But if I now put my pos lead on #5 and neg on #8 I get the 3 second beep again. And as long as i keep switching the leads they will beep. Is this showing sometype of AC potential??

Obviously they have continuity, even for a short time, but they are still correlated.

Having the cross feed tight might not be the end of the world, but it may make it hard to be accurate.

As for the wiring, I wonder if the motor took more damage from the hit than you thought?
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom