60x120x20 2 story shop final stages

auto-mafia · Sep 21, 2014

Okay guys so here it is. This is the master plan. The big cheese.

Here is simply what I want, and my ideas about how to go about it. PLEASE feel free to chime in with any IDEAS or just tell me I am wrong. I take advice and experience willingly so I too can learn.

Anyway...
Location: Billings, MT 59101
Width: 60 feet
Length: 120 feet
Height: 20 feet

Plan Details:

Far left 40x60x20 closed off room. This will be my "shop". It will have 1 12x14 ft garage door on it.

Far right 80x60x20 will be separated with the bottom having a 10 ft ceiling and the rest being a loft apartment. Awesome right?

So this is the plan so far.

I want to have Hydro radiated heat in the whole 60x120 to heat the garage with a air conditioning/ furnace for the loft when needed. The water heater and all the furnace and everything will be in the "garage" lower level. I plan on having 2 stair cases at either end of the 60x80 2 story so that I can close the top off into 2 sections if I ever wanted to.

Here is the hard part. I do not want poles under the bottom of the 2 story. So I would like it to be a clearspan for the entire 60x80 ft space underneath if possible. If this isnt a likely option let me know guys, or if there is a more cost effective way than to have it built into the steel building my ears are open...

Elvenhome21 · Sep 21, 2014

60' span is going to be ridiculously expensive for steel I beam that length. But if money is no object then it could be doable. I dont recall seeing much of anything over 40' clear span for truss construction.

auto-mafia · Sep 21, 2014

I guess I could be OK with 1 row of poles halfway.. So 30 ft spans

Could it be done with just wooden trusses then if I had supports under the cross beams at 30 ft? obviously I would have to build the walls as well to hold the weight of the structure.

And by this I just mean the 18" tall floor trusses.

auto-mafia · Sep 21, 2014

If I just put in 2 bars and ran 2 beams I could have 28 ft sections... going across the beams.. What do you guys think?

Strouty · Sep 21, 2014

I would put a bigger door in the "shop" side. I would go 14 by 14 or even 16 tall. You never know what crazy project you will have and since you have the ceiling height and the depth I would not want to be limited by a door.

What are you doing for the second floor? Could you incorporate a trussed design to hold up the beams and have the upstairs partitioned off instead of beams below?

auto-mafia · Sep 21, 2014

Strouty said:
I would put a bigger door in the "shop" side. I would go 14 by 14 or even 16 tall. You never know what crazy project you will have and since you have the ceiling height and the depth I would not want to be limited by a door.

What are you doing for the second floor? Could you incorporate a trussed design to hold up the beams and have the upstairs partitioned off instead of beams below?

That isn't a bad idea. A 14x16 would be pretty sick. I think I will do that. I mean you are correct. There really is no point in not doing besides the fact that a good R value 14x16 costs around $2,000.00!

I want the second floor entirely open. It is a loft design. I will just do my idea above, if the floor trust builder says it will work. I am sure it will though. It is only 30 feet in between. I might put 4 poles in though so that it is only 15 feet in between each pole. If I do that it will be super stiff and I wont have flex in the upper floor.

Strouty · Sep 21, 2014

auto-mafia said:
That isn't a bad idea. A 14x16 would be pretty sick. I think I will do that. I mean you are correct. There really is no point in not doing besides the fact that a good R value 14x16 costs around $2,000.00!

I want the second floor entirely open. It is a loft design. I will just do my idea above, if the floor trust builder says it will work. I am sure it will though. It is only 30 feet in between. I might put 4 poles in though so that it is only 15 feet in between each pole. If I do that it will be super stiff and I wont have flex in the upper floor.

The bigger door is only a small price difference.

When backing a trailer in, it is great because you may have to set off to the side and the wider door helps with the swing. Also if you end up with multiple vehicles in there, you can offset them and fit them in without an issue.

As for the open upstairs, what if you had a structural truss designed that was architectural? You could have it designed with openings to walk through and it would look industrial. Of course if you want a basket ball court, then that would be an issue.

The beams will solve that issue for sure, I am guessing that they won't be an issue to the lower floor.

Strouty · Sep 21, 2014

And the reason for the door height is you never know what the future could hold. I have a boom truck and with a 16' door I could actually use it to pick things up from outside. My current door is 12' wide but only 10' 4" tall. I plan on reworking things so that I have a much larger door, but I have to remove trusses so it is going to be a lot of work.

Strouty · Sep 21, 2014

There is nothing wrong with figuring things out before getting the building designed. Heck, he may get the engineering for free if he buys the materials from the right place.

Norcal · Sep 21, 2014

It seems to me that one bay should be a drive through, could make life much simpler in the future.

tomshep · Sep 22, 2014

Architect or Engineer....small price to pay for the total cost of your project.

Tom

zkdiesel · Sep 22, 2014

This doesn't look like final stages!!

sberry · Sep 22, 2014

Mine is 80 ft clear span. I think this design needs re work mainly because in **** weather doors in the sides are a problem, great in summer but in winter its a real problem. You can go 80 ft in wood too. After that the cost goes up.
I cant speel engineer but have done some of these, I know about every mistake that can be made and often it pays to get another view instead of the idea you came up with especially involving layout and door location.
You need poles and beams for a second floor.

sberry · Sep 22, 2014

I looked at this a little and I would have to ask a few more questions regarding use and cost. I think there is likely a more cost effective option but you need 2 Architects.

I made a couple minor mistakes, a little due to cost but by the time I got to my shop of today had done this a couple times for myself and others. I am glad I was delayed and got to really sit around the fire in the morning and chalk draw it out on the floor.
I have a steel building. I have poured wall so its a job to move a door jamb, you can fix some screw ups, some you got to live with. I have a couple features that added some cost but really worked out and I have utilization. This is a key and I preach it in the tool section but don't want to spend on stuff that is never or rarely used. Inconvenience is ok or may be acceptable on occasion but the dailies, the entrance , parking and finding out down the line you put in doors you never use or that you wish it was bigger.
No matter what the layout and despite some opening heat loss I would opt for a 14 wide shop door. I would really consider seasonal changes. I am thrilled with my door layout, have a semi pull thru design, don't really use it a lot, woudnt been a deal breaker not to have it.
What does this building "do" ???????????????
I found most of these don't end up exactly as planned, I know all the benches didn't turn out like I had envisioned and found out it evolved, we got the basics right, I would enlarge my bathroom a foot, I used block for an interior wall.
The whole nature and use of the building change with the seasons. I open the side door to the grounds when I want to work, it remains open for a month at a time in the summer and didn't even plow the snow away from it last winter,,, every day in the summer it has 6 people and 4 golf carts passing thru all hours of the day, in the winter traffic funnels thru the walk door and the large front with floor drains.

sberry · Sep 22, 2014

I see another farm shop on here designed similar and when I questioned about a couple features said they were limited by external constraints etc. I saw some university layouts and drawings,,, the drawings were nice but the layout was pitiful, they hadn't had the foot traffic experience or what they now call ergonomics to get the door/entrance/sink/bath and other utilities to work together.
How many people does this support?
Even if a guy is diy 300K or so in materials by the time it was inhabitable.

sberry · Sep 22, 2014

I need a drawing program.

sberry · Sep 22, 2014

I would have all the daily living down one side on the first floor including master bedroom with a master bathroom, storage and extra on the second floor with extra bathroom, extra bedrooms etc. Would have a utility/public bathroom shared with shop and living with all the kitchen and laundry fed in the common wall.
But a 5000 sq ft "apartment" how cool is that is probably not considering the price tag.

auto-mafia · Sep 22, 2014

Wow thanks for the advice guys.
First no worries an engineer is working on it from ArmStrong Steel. But to get and keep the price lower I need to basically have all my details decided so it only has to be really designed once.

I am taking advice already and I will enlarge the door to a 14x14.

What is this building for?

It is an auto shop to build racecars and fabricate.

It is a garage for my 8 vehicles, and for the boat trailer and atvs I plan on buying in the future.

I plan on living in the top floor for a few years while I build my "house" next door.

The top floor will also house my office, a large bathroom, and an open kitchen.

The far side nearest the shop of the top floor will be my screen printing shop. Most of my sales are online, so a store front is not needed. All my business comes from word of mouth and online presence.

Ramblings brought to you by tapatalk on the iPhone.

auto-mafia · Sep 22, 2014

I am going to incorporate a chicken coupe into the bottom floor, a large industrial type bathroom to wash from the shop and riding atvs etc in the mud.

My figures so far are showing this.

$25,000 concrete poured
$50,000 Armstrong steel base priced. I am sure it will go up with the added engineering and long I beams for the second floor.
$15,000 in doors and windows.

With prices around here being what they are. $300,000 for this size of a house shop etc is cheap.

Keep the ideas and suggestions coming please!

Ramblings brought to you by tapatalk on the iPhone.

auto-mafia · Oct 22, 2014

Just letting you guys know this isnt a hoax. I have gotten quotes for $169,000 just for parts, or $49,000. Crazy the difference right? I am waiting on a couple more now.

RogueFab · Oct 23, 2014

Ummm. Those prices are a little suspect. May i ask for more details? What about excavation? Are you going to erect it? Do the mechanical/electrical/plumbing? Paint and finish work?

In the end, your budget is your business. I'm just curious since you posted it. And I don't know armstrong, but free engineering isn't always the best. Unless they are only giving it away once you have a vested interest (deposit, contract, etc.). I bet you already thought of this.

Overall cool plans.

They have beam span calculators online. Just money and headroom you trade for span and capacity. Almost any span can be done with metal or wood.

BobRae · Oct 23, 2014

ducksface said:
That's a $700,000 building.
If you have $700,000; you have enough for an engineer and some plans.
You don't brainstorm a project like that. You let a pro design it.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

auto-mafia · Oct 24, 2014

RogueFab said:
Ummm. Those prices are a little suspect. May i ask for more details? What about excavation? Are you going to erect it? Do the mechanical/electrical/plumbing? Paint and finish work?

In the end, your budget is your business. I'm just curious since you posted it. And I don't know armstrong, but free engineering isn't always the best. Unless they are only giving it away once you have a vested interest (deposit, contract, etc.). I bet you already thought of this.

Overall cool plans.

They have beam span calculators online. Just money and headroom you trade for span and capacity. Almost any span can be done with metal or wood.

I will do my best to answer the questions!

The prices are really varying with the design, and how they are pricing it out. Some of them seem to put all their premium stuff into everything and it drives the price up. Also they dont listen to my design and quote me a 2nd floor that I can drive a tank on...

I am doing all of the work except for the cement work. Between several manual labor helpers I have no doubt we will be able to erect it. I have built several small sheds and garages and horse shelters on ranches. This is really just a larger version of those.

Here is where I am currently sitting. I have basically turned down every company that has hit me over $70,000.00 on an estimate. The current company talking to me is Worldwide Steel. They apparently use the webtruss design which I actually like a lot more than the steel I beams. They will allow me to run the wiring and plumbing through the walls much easier.

I have done plumbing, electrical, and put on metal siding before. I have built 2 houses so far.

The engineering is only given to me once I put down a deposit. - So not really free they just give me the specs on it.

I am not rich by any means. I make about 30k a year before taxes. I own the land I am building the building on. I can and will be doing all of the work that I can possibly do. Also I dont think I will be getting the entire thing built at once.

Stages
1. Excavate - $ of gas I own a bobcat
2. Install plumbing/lay gravel -
3. Install Septic System - have installed
4. Install insulation foam/lay pex/lay rebar
5. Cement Poured
6. Install metal frame of building
7. Put the roof on
8. Put the sides on and doors and windows
9. Install windmill - 10KW
10. Install second floor flooring-plywood and stairs
11. Run electric
12. Run plumbing-including in floor heating system
13. Insulate-spray in....
14. Add lower interior walls
15. Build lower level bathroom and extra sinks
16. start finishing upper level as i can afford it-mostly tile

With the quotes I have really gotten I can do this in several stages with the money I have on hand even if it takes my $200,000 loan to start building it and get me to number 10. Thats okay with me.

Here is a much better image of the finished bottom floor front. This is pretty much exactly what I want minus colors...120 ft x 60 ft deep 22 ft eave. I will figure out upstairs windows as I go, but that is the nice thing about this company is I can frame it out in wood so no big deal.

auto-mafia · Nov 15, 2014

Well I am now working with Worldwide Steel Buildings who do a web struss design. We are looking at around $70,000.00 with the second floor. Not bad. This doesnt include any of the wood for framing or any doors or windows, but thats alright with me, it is 100k below the other guys.

It is now winter here, but I also have my quote from Radiantec to floor heat this place. $15,000.00 All parts no labor. 3 zones, 1 shop, 1 garage, and 1 upstairs. It is a closed system design.

UNDERFLOOR HEATING MATERIAL

30 - 300' coils 7/8" PEX tubing (Lifetime Warranty) $6,390.00

2 - 6 Circuit 7/8" Pex manifold - straight legs (1") $1,138.00

3 - 6 Circuit 7/8" Pex manifold - 1" $1,707.00

1000 - Preformed Aluminum Plates - Single Groove $1,100.00

5000 - Square feet aluminum reflective barrier $950.00

6 - 7/8" Pex compression repair coupling $60.00

3000 - Plastic zip ties $120.00

1 - Tubing cutter $15.00

UNDERFLOOR HEATING MATERIAL SUBTOTAL: $11,480.00

CONTROLS AND MECHANICALS

1 - SP-85 Relay box $335.00

4 - D-508 Floor/Air Control $396.00

5 - Medium/high head cast iron pump $1,495.00

1 - 1 1/2" Plumbing mechanical package (PMP) $569.00

1 - 4 Gallon expansion tank $85.00

CONTROLS AND MECHANICALS SUBTOTAL: $2,880.00

1 - Extras for zones - Cast $150.00

1 - Five zone distribution manifold (ZDM) 1 1/2" Trunk to 1" Legs $1,314.00

SUBTOTAL: $1,464.00

TOTAL:

$15,824.00

wizness · Nov 15, 2014

You must be able to make a 30k a year job before taxes go pretty damn far to be able to afford that. I made that much when I worked at lowes while I was going to school and could never afford something like that. If you can pull it off it will be awesome. Good luck with the build. I have a feeling this is going to be a very pricey project.

readhead · Nov 15, 2014

Sounds like you have done a lot of homework. For that I commend you. Now the but.
I sell and erect metal buildings and here are a few of my experiences over the last 20 years.
80% of the people that installed infloor heat, especially in a building that large, abandoned the systems and installed unit heaters because of high operating costs.
100k cheaper should be sending up some red flags. There has been a high fail rate of truss style buildings. Do some research.
Building companies don't like to provide floor systems as a rule. If they do you are paying dearly for it. You would be better of framing the floor system from wood or a combination of wood and a steel mid beam.
Roof overhangs add a lot of money to the cost of the building.
Sort out the windows now! Even if you don't install them now you need to know what kind of windows and how they mount and trim.
Consider an "expandable "design so you can build less now and add later. It may seem strange but 95% of metal buildings are not made to add on. If you do want to add later you have to build a complete building and flash them together.
Don't buy the insulation from the building company. You can always get a better deal from an insulation supplier.

auto-mafia · Nov 15, 2014

wizness said:
You must be able to make a 30k a year job before taxes go pretty damn far to be able to afford that. I made that much when I worked at lowes while I was going to school and could never afford something like that. If you can pull it off it will be awesome. Good luck with the build. I have a feeling this is going to be a very pricey project.

I make 30k before taxes with overtime under the table, I moonlight snow plowing for $20/hr when we get 2 inches or more for another company. When we have 4+ inches of snow I have my own plow that I plow my home association for roughly $500 a pop when I do that. I also rent out my horse pasture for $1,100 a month. I havent really added it all up, but it should put me closer to 40k easily.

It will be VERY pricey, however, I am building it as a home as well. I maybe eventually build a "real" house next to it, but that will most likely not happen for 15+ years.

readhead said:
Sounds like you have done a lot of homework. For that I commend you. Now the but.
I sell and erect metal buildings and here are a few of my experiences over the last 20 years.
80% of the people that installed infloor heat, especially in a building that large, abandoned the systems and installed unit heaters because of high operating costs.
100k cheaper should be sending up some red flags. There has been a high fail rate of truss style buildings. Do some research.
Building companies don't like to provide floor systems as a rule. If they do you are paying dearly for it. You would be better of framing the floor system from wood or a combination of wood and a steel mid beam.
Roof overhangs add a lot of money to the cost of the building.
Sort out the windows now! Even if you don't install them now you need to know what kind of windows and how they mount and trim.
Consider an "expandable "design so you can build less now and add later. It may seem strange but 95% of metal buildings are not made to add on. If you do want to add later you have to build a complete building and flash them together.
Don't buy the insulation from the building company. You can always get a better deal from an insulation supplier.

Thank you I am trying to do as much homework as I can on the subject prior to building anything. I have done extensive research, and I cant find anything about failed truss style buildings. I see a lot of them built this way here in Montana on the smaller scale. The larger scale buildings for industry and companies are almost always the big I beam steel. But I really dont see the need.

I am interested in your opinion since you say you have been in the industry. If you dont mind me asking you to back up your claims.

As far as the cost of doing in floor heat. I am putting a 10KW windmill in. That will easily cover the electricity needed for the in floor heat. I am also installing solar thermal water heaters to aid with the warming up of the water. So I am not worried about that but thanks for the input. When you basically are having "free" after the installation cost electricity you dont worry as much about it. But I have done all the math for the building on the electricity front.

I dont know what you mean by an expandable building I have not come across that in my research.

The addition of the second floor with the web truss building is $20,000.00 USD. I guess I am shying away from the wood truss and framed upstairs is I am not sure how to do it. I was thinking I would end up needing a lot more posts to hold the walls up and it would still cost me around $20k to do. If you are saying there is a better and cheaper way I am all ears. I wont be breaking ground until spring anyway.

readhead · Nov 15, 2014

An expandable building uses a ridgid frame for the end wall. A regular building uses a light end wall. If you add on to a regular building and want to open up the end wall the structure will not support two bays of purlins.
How large is the second floor area? 20K is nuts even for steel.
Have you factored in a large forklift at the minimum for erecting?
We would have all the red iron up in about 3 days and that is allowing for unloading the building. But we are showing up with a crane, skytrak, two sizzor lifts and five guys.
I know you can probably do it yourself with some friends but you might want to figure a couple of months working every day.
Not trying to talk you out of it but just trying to make you aware of how much work you will be in for.
If that building was in my area I would charge 36-40K to erect.

auto-mafia · Nov 15, 2014

readhead said:
An expandable building uses a ridgid frame for the end wall. A regular building uses a light end wall. If you add on to a regular building and want to open up the end wall the structure will not support two bays of purlins.
How large is the second floor area? 20K is nuts even for steel.
Have you factored in a large forklift at the minimum for erecting?
We would have all the red iron up in about 3 days and that is allowing for unloading the building. But we are showing up with a crane, skytrak, two sizzor lifts and five guys.
I know you can probably do it yourself with some friends but you might want to figure a couple of months working every day.
Not trying to talk you out of it but just trying to make you aware of how much work you will be in for.
If that building was in my area I would charge 36-40K to erect.

The 2nd floor is 60 ft deep 80 ft long. Most companies wanted $80k to add it on. I have a john deere skidster and I will rent a couple scissor lifts, but aside from that I dont see it being too difficult. I am factoring in most of the summer to build it. See I cant justify 40k having someone do what I can do haha

readhead · Nov 15, 2014

Are they clear spanning the floor or are there posts?

auto-mafia · Nov 15, 2014

readhead said:
Are they clear spanning the floor or are there posts?

Posts

readhead · Nov 15, 2014

I presume you will be framing new interior walls where this floor is going to be. You can do it all in wood way cheaper.

auto-mafia · Nov 15, 2014

readhead said:
I presume you will be framing new interior walls where this floor is going to be. You can do it all in wood way cheaper.

The bottom is a garage not a house, so I wasnt planning on framing any walls into it.

60x120x20 2 story shop final stages

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