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Between 705 & 1200 SQ/FT The Garage at The Place in The Valley (Garage Condo 45x23x20)

Workspaces between 705 and 1200 squarefeet.
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Greg_STL

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Index Created in Second Post

Withdrawal is setting in... I decided to create an index for this thread. If you go to the second post, I added a list of significant posts with a hyperlink to take you directly to that post. If you have gotten to this thread late, and do not want to commit to reading the whole thread, it will let you hit some of the highlights a bit easier.

On the garage front, the architect let me know that they finished their package and submitted it to the standards committee on Friday. Hopefully, we will get a ruling back from them within a couple weeks.

EDIT: The index links work on the web but not through Tapatalk - go figure...

EDIT2: Index links work on the web and tapatalk now. Had to go look at some other threads and figure out the correct link "language"...

EDIT3 (7/4/17): Moved the ever growing index to post 2.
 
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SiGmA_X

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Portland, OR
Re: Index Created in First Post

Withdrawal is setting in... I decided to create an index for this thread. If you go to the first post, I added a list of significant posts with a hyperlink to take you directly to that post. If you have gotten to this thread late, and do not want to commit to reading the whole thread, it will let you hit some of the highlights a bit easier.

On the garage front, the architect let me know that they finished their package and submitted it to the standards committee on Friday. Hopefully, we will get a ruling back from them within a couple weeks.

EDIT: The index links work on the web but not through Tapatalk - go figure...
Index is working fine for me on iOS and the latest Tapatalk. I tried three links.

I hope the architect/developer has luck... If not, will you be upgrading the house to something with a nice 6-8 car? :D
 
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Greg_STL

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@SiGmA_X - You caught me while I was fixing it. It think the links work now for both. You must have looked after I fixed it but before I got the post edited to say it was fixed.

I seriously doubt we will be moving to a new house. My fingers are firmly crossed hoping that the architect is successful.

If anyone sees a broken individual link in the index - just PM me which link and I will fix.
 
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Greg_STL

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Thanks for all the ideas. We've pretty much thought of everything from the porta-potty on up. They are fun ideas but I'm under a spotlight already and doubt I'd get away with much at this point.

So, I haven't been sitting still. I started looking seriously at what I would do if the accessibility standard is enforced. I figure I'm down to three options.

1. Chair lift and revised bathroom on the mezzanine
2. Smaller bathroom on main floor
3. Just walk away

I looked at combining the closet and bathroom on the mezzanine to get more space. I thought if I eliminated the shower base, the wide open tiled floor would have plenty of space to allow accessibility. I PowerPoint'd that up for the architect and sent that to him. I also looked at putting just a toilet and sink under the stairs. Unfortunately, the the bathroom is long enough that the slope of the stairs would cut off the top of the bathroom.

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The architect said my version would not be compliant. The architect sent me the pics below of the two bathroom options that would be compliant. I'm not positive I understand the differences but I'm afraid that the shower has to be a very specific unit with grab bars or something.

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Notice that the lower level bathroom has to be partly under the mezzanine to avoid the stairs. There is also only 16' left in garage width so the potential to park two cars is really not there. I think the upper bathroom is the better option. I think it could be flipped vertically so that the little 2'x3' blank space could be a small closet or shelf space at the top of the stairs.

I'm really not a fan of either. I'm still really hoping the final answer is that we don't have to be compliant at the unit level but at the facility level.
 
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pmason0

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Nov 12, 2011
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251
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East Tennessee
You probably already have, but here is a link to a document on ADA bathroom designs that I used. My understanding it needed a 5ft circle in the middle.
http://www.bobrick.com/documents/planningguide.pdf

The layout on page 18 is what I did with the show. One thing to note that the show couldn't have a lip higher than 1/2in if I remember correctly. I just did a title floor in the whole bathroom and just contoured the flow in the shower area to the drain.
 

kered

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Ireland
Just going to step in here with my opinion......

I really think that the developers of this project, should have had all this figured out in advance & should have been in a position to inform you & other clients that there would be a requirement to have an ADA bathroom in each unit.

Either, they knew & left it unsaid so as to fill units & then deal with the "problem" in turn as each client came up against the issue. Or they didn't do their job properly & genuinely didn't know there would be such a requirement until now, in which case I'd have to question the quality of the architects & engineers involved in this project. In which case I'd be asking myself what other code violations, cut corners, grey areas & the like are likely to raise their ugly heads down the road.

The garage condo concept is really cool & I've enjoyed reading on GJ of other such builds over the years. I really feel for you Greg_STL, as you've put your heart & soul into this project, not to mention a significant investment, only to have this thrown in your face at this late stage & effectively ruin the whole thing.

Option 3 on your list, "walk away", may be the most painful of all at the moment, but in the long run, if you can't figure a way out of the ADA bathroom seriously impacting the usability of the space..........:dunno:

I wish you well no matter what you choose, but advise that you really think about this & be sure of what you're getting into & if it's something you want to be in at all now.

As you say over in the States "It really *****" :sad:
 

shortykorte

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The architects bathroom on the left is identical to what I had built. Again mine was on ground floor. For whatever reason just the 5' turnaround circle was required, no grab rails.
The architect should have known, the contractor should have asked and the county should have caught when permitting. Best wishes.
 

madoc1

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Dec 11, 2012
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spicewood, tx
great documentation and follow through so far. i wish you the best on the final outcome. i wonder how thin an ada bathroom can be? anyway, will be watching for updates. good luck,

jim
 

MWitte

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Nov 27, 2012
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St Louis, Mo
I have been following this thread for a while. I have been watching that building from the other side of the runway for several months now (I work on the other side of the runway). This looks like a really neat project.

Maybe your developer needs to move you to a larger unit (at his expense) so you end up with the square footage you expected after the required ADA compliant bathroom is installed.
 

slik560

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"Maybe your developer needs to move you to a larger unit (at his expense) so you end up with the square footage you expected after the required ADA compliant bathroom is installed."

Now THAT is thinking outside the condo-box. Good one. :rocker:
 
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Greg_STL

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Ha! I like your thinking. The next largest unit is 1400 sq.ft. and is basically the same width (23ft) but 60 feet long. That is 15 feet longer and 350 sqft more space. You could argue that a bathroom on the ground level wastes a full car space or 12' by 15' but not 350 sq.ft. They would also have to deal with my existing unit with all the modifications that have already been made. I doubt they would go for it....
 

Spdstr280Z

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Apr 29, 2015
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Georgia
Ha! I like your thinking. The next largest unit is 1400 sq.ft. and is basically the same width (23ft) but 60 feet long. That is 15 feet longer and 350 sqft more space. You could argue that a bathroom on the ground level wastes a full car space or 12' by 15' but not 350 sq.ft. They would also have to deal with my existing unit with all the modifications that have already been made. I doubt they would go for it....
I had the same thought, never hurts to ask what they can do if they can't get around the requirement.

Jason

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

snapon12

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Very true. Have you asked if you have to have a yearly inspection by city or fire Marshall? If the city is viewing this as a business type space you may have to.

149 r/c worx team driver
 

oldschoolbob

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Mar 6, 2014
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This is a private space - not a public space. If you were buying a condo to live in would they force you to put in a handicapped toilet?
 

farrbar

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Jul 28, 2007
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Chicagoland
Greg - sorry for you troubles.... I have been following - these spaces interest me. I have a commercial condo (but half of my developement is just car guys like me, no business). They were built in the 70s and the one guy that touched his bathroom a couple years ago had to make it Ada.

Given the pricing of $125+ per SF raw, I would imagine that this will be a major setback for the developer. At that price it needs to fulfill needs flawlessly, and having to go use a common bath might not be part of some peoples vision.

Looks like he has only sold 1/3 of phase 1, and of course still has phase 2 to really make this a success.

I would imagine that patience will pay a dividend one way or another.... At some point the developer will be willing to subsidize a solution.
 
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Greg_STL

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Vehicular History and Why I am here...

During my wait, I thought I'd take some time and post about how I got here. In one of the first posts, I posted plans of the interior. The shear view with the stairs showed a series of pictures on the wall that are the cars my wife and I have owned over the years.

For me, much of my car history started with my father who was a collector of ecletic cars. We had at least a dozen cars at a time with as many as 18 at one time when I was growing up. He owned many different brands but his true collection was in Chevrolet Corvairs. There were VW Things and Mitsubishi Starions so it was not a one brand fixation. He owned early and late model Corvairs - coupes, convertibles, vans, pick-ups (rampsides), and station wagons. As a result, my first car was a 1963 Corvair Convertible. It was a real project car that was purchased at an auction for $100 for it and two other cars. It had no engine, no top and no interioor. It started out as a 86hp powerglide but was swapped out to a later year 110hp 4 speed. It was older than I was but was a fun car for high school. I even drove it on the sets of several movies filmed in Baltimore including Tin Men with Danny Devito and Richard Dryfus.

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I have to admit, the worst car I've ever owned was my college car. It was a '86 Chevy Nova which in reality was a Toyota Corrolla underneath. It was utterly boring and totally reliable on many a 15 hour college road trips cross country between school, work, and home.

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At about this time I graduated colelge and I met my wife. She was driving a 89 Celica when I was driving my Chevy Nova. I wanted a convertible but wanted something that would handle the Missouri winters. I decided to buy my first new car and bought a '93 Honda Del Sol. It was a fun car but performance was sub-par to say the least. My wife was (is) smarter than me - she purchased a '93 Toyota MR2 Turbo. She had never driven a stick and bought the MR2 based on reviews and learned to drive stick on this mid-90s car capable of 0-60 in just over 6 seconds. This woman has had a continuous Car&Driver subscription since she was 18. Did I mention that I married this woman?

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When we married, we bought a small house with a really small (18'9"x18'6") garage. With a MR2 and a Del Sol we didn't really notice at first. Eventually, my wife traded in her MR2 on a Nissan Pathfinder since we need a vehicle to help carry all the miscellaneous **** one needs in suburbia. That was a mistake without a doubt. The MR2 was a collector car that we should have kept but we just didn't think we could afford to keep at the time. Eventually, after 6 years with the Del Sol, I wanted somthing with a bit more peformance. My wife and I were talking kids, so it had to be capable of carrying kids and car seats. I went with a 99 Ford Contour SVT. It was a fun car, but it suffered from 200hp on the front wheels only. I enjoyed some nice trips with this car including drive from Seattle to San Franciso and Seattle to St. Louis. The pic below is from Huricane Ridge on the Olympic Peninsula.

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Eventually, my wife couldn't take the SUV anymore. She bought a 03 Infiniti G35. This really was a beautiful car with flowing lines that made you think you were a shark among minnows while driving on the highway. For our 10th wedding anniversary, we took the G35 and my car at the time (no spoilers) to Mid-Ohio for the Acura 3-day driving course. One of the scariest things that ever happened to my wife happend in this car. She was hit by a college student that ran a red light because she was late for class. The pics of the post accident are below. My wife made it through with only minor injuries and bought an 05 Inifiniti G35 as a replacement. You can see in the last pic below the Nissan Pathfinder that we had kept as a third car and all-purpose suburbian appliance.

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After six years with the SVT, I bought a manual 05 Subaru Legacy GT. It was 4 doors so I could taxi the kids but it had AWD so I could actually put the power to the ground. It had the same 2.5L engine as the WRX STI with a slightly smaller turbo. I modified it quite a bit. I flashed the software, put in a new exhaust, coilovers, anti-roll bars, larger brakes, and new wheels & tires. This was the car that I drove at Mid-Ohio. I think it was running about 350 hp and 350 ft-lbs of torque by the time I was finished with it.

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My wife was tiring of the G35 - she had owned the 03 and 05 models for a combined 7+ years. She had never owned a convertible and wanted one. She was also scared of the Misery (Missouri) weather and thought a hard top covertible would be the best choice. She found a VW EOS that was nice. It wasn't a performance beast but we decided to put a body kit, coilovers, and a new set of wheels to make a unique version of the EOS.

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At this point, I was 8 years into the Subaru. I enjoyed it but the kids were getting older and I really wanted a coupe. AWD was a neccesity to keep the power down. I looked around for a while and custom ordered an Audi TTS. The 350hp Subaru was a bit of a pain on the daily stop & go traffic with the manual and clutch. I looked at the Audi TTRS but decided I really wanted the DSG for the daily commute. You can see in the background of the the first TTS pic the Toyota RAV4 that replaced our Nissan Pathfinder as our appliance car.

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We are now getting to the point of why we have invested in The Place. In 2014, my wife was diagnosed with Breast Cancer. She went through hell - Double mastectomy, chemotherapy, radiation, and reconstruction surgery. One of the things that we did to get through it all was talk about what we were going to do when we were done with it all. We talked about a cruise to Europe for our 20th anniversary (which we did) and about her bucket list cars. She is done now and as far as we know she has a clean bill of health.

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During chemo, Nancy talked about wanting to get her bucket list car - a Porsche 911. Once she finished the last reconstruction, she started looking. She wanted a Porsche 911, specifically a 997 gen 2 with a PDK and AWD. She found a 2009 997.2 C4S in Florida. My dad, who winters in Florida, checked it out and said it was in great shape. I flew down, signed the paperwork, and drove it back for my wife (who didn't have any vacation time at this point). Because we kept the EOS, we were up to four vehicles with only a 2 car garage. We put the 997 in a neighbor's garage for winter but started looking for a more permanent solution. The Place started advertising in spring of 2015 and we bought in. I can't honestly say that we can afford the porsche or the place but I also really could not say no. Happy wife - happy life. Once you go through a life or death situation (or 3), you also learn to live a little.

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Looking forward, I'd love to have an R8. I drove an Audi R8 and a Ferarri 458 at Exotic Motor Sports in Las Vegas. My wife drove a 911 turbo and McLauren MP412C in Vegas. I think long term, she would love a boxster or 911 cabrolet for a summer car and keep the 997 for a winter car. Will any of this happen ... who knows? It is nice to dream - being alive gives you that luxury.

So I still have hopes that this will all work out.
 
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alberto

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May 28, 2007
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An experience like that will change your perspective on life. I wish you and your wife and all who go through the hell that is cancer, the best.
 

Tindjin

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Aug 2, 2009
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Location
ABQ, NM
So, not a lawyer or ADA expert but couldn't you install a second hand lift, then after all construction is done take it apart and put it in long term storage*? If for some reason anyone asks just tell them it is at a repair facility.

*Long term storage where it is kept at some other person's place after they have paid you for the honor of keeping it for you?

I hope you get good results soon on the variance.
 
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jay8s

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Mar 5, 2007
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St. Louis
Having just met both you and your wife, I have to say that you are truely living life to the fullest. You have made cars a part of your family together time. Watching you, and your family light up when talking about the future plans for your space is what life is all about.

I hope that mangagment is able to work this out for you, as you have earned it. Maybe that outter ring garage with the window could be in your future? It would just about make up for the Sqft loss.
 
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Greg_STL

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What I didn't do in my new garage today - or - what I did do in my old garage....

I had been waiting to do my rotors and pads on my TTS until the new garage was up and running. I decided that wasn't going to happen very soon so I got to work in my current place.

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I did the fronts today. The first side took a while since I had to make a run to get a tool. I always love the first time doing a brake job on a new car. I always seem to missing something. My daughter helped out so that was a bonus. You can thank my wife for less then flattering shot of me.
 

kered

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Jan 29, 2010
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Ireland
Thank you for sharing your story Greg_STL.

I wish you both all the very best of everything & really hope that you can get the issues at "The Place" ironed out & you'll get to move in soon to enjoy your Garage Condo.

:beer:
 
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Greg_STL

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No real news. I did talk to the architect. He said he had not heard anything yet but I think he suspects something. He called asking how set I was on the shower. His thinking was that if the club house bathroom could be the alternate accessible bathroom for my unit that my bathroom could only have the same amenities as the clubhouse bathroom. Hence, if I wanted a shower, my whole bathroom would have to be accessible. If I didn't want a shower, then potentially none of it would have to be accessible. Sounds like a bunch of legal triple talk to me.... Either way, there has been no official response yet.

If it came down to it, it makes sense to give up on the shower to not have to have a chair lift, not lose the space on the ground floor, and have a reasonably sized bathroom on the mezzanine. We shall see...

On the brake front ... Looking back at those photos, I was a bit disgusted at how dirty I got the discs while installing them. I really should have been more careful to keep contaminants off the disc faces. I washed the car and used my normal wheel cleaner on the wheels, calipers, and discs. After driving back and forth to work this week, everything seems to have bedded down properly - so no long term harm.

The rears have a rotating (threaded??) piston in the calipers. I ordered a tool from Amazon (2-day Prime!) that should make compressing the piston for new pads easier. The set showed up today. The right tool always make's the job easier and you can't have enough tools... Right?
 
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Greg_STL

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Fun Facts About Our Cars

I believe I called my Dad's cars eclectic. I'm not sure I'm any better. Some fun facts about the 12 cars we've owned:

Body Style: Sedan(3), Coupe(6), Convertible(3)

Drive Trains: Front Engine FWD (5), Front Engine RWD (2), Mid Engine RWD (1), Rear Engine RWD (1), Front Engine AWD (2), Rear Engine AWD (1)

Engine Type: Inline 4 (6), Flat 4 (1), Flat 6 (2), V6 (3)

Engine Type: Naturally Aspirated (8), Turbos (4)

Transmissions: AT(2), 4MT(1), 5MT(4), 6MT(2), DSG/PDK(3)

Stock Wheel Size: 13"(2), 14"(2), 15"(1), 16"(1), 17"(1), 18"(2), 19"(3)

Country of Origin: US (3), Japan (6), Germany(3)
(The Chevy Nova was really Japanese (Toyota Corolla) and the Legacy was assembled in the US - counted both 1/2 each.)
 

TurboEuro88

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Feb 18, 2013
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Mentor, OH
While Im sure you don't mind owning the tool, its sometimes worthwhile to check your local autoparts store to see if they have it in their rental program. I know the tool you're specifically talking about is available for rental as I've used one recently. Comes down to how much you value having it vs how often you'll really use it.
 
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Greg_STL

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@TurboEuro88 - I knew that autozone would rent but it was only $25 from Amazon. To me it was a small price for convenience.
 

Slycox

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Jul 31, 2015
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North Dakota
No real news. I did talk to the architect. He said he had not heard anything yet but I think he suspects something. He called asking how set I was on the shower. His thinking was that if the club house bathroom could be the alternate accessible bathroom for my unit that my bathroom could only have the same amenities as the clubhouse bathroom. Hence, if I wanted a shower, my whole bathroom would have to be accessible. If I didn't want a shower, then potentially none of it would have to be accessible. Sounds like a bunch of legal triple talk to me.... Either way, there has been no official response yet.

If it came down to it, it makes sense to give up on the shower to not have to have a chair lift, not lose the space on the ground floor, and have a reasonably sized bathroom on the mezzanine. We shall see...

If that case why wouldn't the developers add a shower to their bathroom? I would be pushing that idea, that way they can add that as a feature for the unsold units.:dunno:
 

JettaGetUpandGo

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Jun 3, 2015
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685
Location
Pewaukee, WI
No real news. I did talk to the architect. He said he had not heard anything yet but I think he suspects something. He called asking how set I was on the shower. His thinking was that if the club house bathroom could be the alternate accessible bathroom for my unit that my bathroom could only have the same amenities as the clubhouse bathroom. Hence, if I wanted a shower, my whole bathroom would have to be accessible. If I didn't want a shower, then potentially none of it would have to be accessible. Sounds like a bunch of legal triple talk to me.... Either way, there has been no official response yet.

Local residential code is weird similar in a way. If the only bath on the first floor is a 1/2 bath (no tub/shower) then there is no special requirement for the door size. One full bath on the second floor must have a 32" door for accessibility.

If there is a full bath added to the main level it must have a 32" door, then there is no special requirement for the second floor baths. Even if there is a second floor bath with a 32" door the full bath on the first floor still needs to be 32". In a home with multiple full baths on the first floor, only one needs the 32" door.

This really screws over people with a master bedroom/bath on the first floor (and the rest of the bedrooms up) that want to enclose the toilet with a door. By code this must be a 32" door, which is massive for such a small space.

The point of all the above is to say that perhaps the shower puts your bath into a different set of requirements.

Have you thought about the possibility of a "mop closet"? You could put a 3'x4' pan in there with a typical faucet mounted lower for the buckets, then have a separate faucet or maybe a handheld that could be mounted higher for showering. It's not ideal, but if you really need a shower and are ok with it not being in the bathroom, this might get you around the rules. This could be accomplished with a 6-7'x4' room tucked under the stairs and double as a utility closet for the lower level.
 
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Greg_STL

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Still no news on the garage .... but a busy day so far.

Went to a Cars & Coffee at STL Motorcars. They had a Aston Martin Vulcan - wow.

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I also saw an advertisement for a Cars & Coffee at the Place for Sept 25th. I'm kinda surprised it's the first I've heard. We will be at an AutoX that day so we will not be there...

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I have a small album on Flickr from today if you want to see the photos:

2016-09-10 Cars & Coffee - Flickr Album


After the Cars&Coffee, I went home and finished the brake job on the Audi TTS. I had done the fronts last weekend but needed to do the rears.

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By the way, these are pics with the new camera. I'm only taking the photos at 12 megapixels and then Flickr reduces them to 800x532 when I post them here.
 
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Greg_STL

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Technically, I'm not an owner yet. I haven't closed yet. But, yeah, I would have thought they would send something out too. But last I looked it wasn't on their web page or Facebook page either. It could be the Cars and Coffee folks that jumped the gun.
 

rkstr

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Jul 28, 2010
Messages
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Was at The Place today for a car show. Peaked in all but one of the units, which had paper on the window. Are you number 34?

Rick
 
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Greg_STL

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@rkstr - Sorry we didn't make it today. We were at an AutoX up at Family Arena in St. Charles. Obligatory picture (wife driving)....

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I usually drive my TTS but I drove the 911 today. It was my first time doing all six runs of an AutoX in the Porsche. I was in no danger of winning anything but it was a lot of fun.

Our unit is 25. Unit 34 is the one behind us (shares a common small rear wall). I believe the owner of that unit has two lifts in place with a 4-5 muscle cars in the unit.

@everyone else - Sorry I haven't posted in a while. The national standards committee came back a week and half ago with some good and some bad news. They basically ruled that if I kept my amenities in my unit to the same in as in the clubhouse then I do not need to have chair lift or grab bars. I would still have to have the space required for an ADA bathroom but not all the misc stuff that goes with it. I assume that is so it could be retrofitted if someone purchased the unit in the future that needed it to be ADA compliant.

That was the good news. The bad news was that if we wanted to keep a shower on the mezzanine it would need to be ADA compliant in terms of spacing, grab bars, and (wait for it) need a vertical lift to get to the bathroom. A chair lift would not be sufficient. Wow.

The developers are still going to fight it with the county. They still think they can argue usage is private but need people to start submitting the plans of individual units so the county can start understanding the expected usages.

So at this point, we have decided to roll the dice and just close. At worst, we lose the shower. But I'm tired of all the delays and want to get things moving again. It would really be nice to be in this winter. So we approved all the work to date and set up a closing date for this Thursday. We plan to submit the plans with the shower to the county right after we close. The developers are going to use our plans to help force the issue. If it gets rejected again, we will re-submit with a mezzanine bathroom without a shower. The good news is that a non-ADA bathroom with a shower and an ADA spaced bathroom without a shower are basically the same size. So, we should be able to move forward with a limited amount of rework in the worst case.

Wish us luck!
 

JettaGetUpandGo

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
685
Location
Pewaukee, WI
I don't understand the need for an ADA accessible bathroom at all if it is on the second floor. Anyone needing such a bathroom won't be able to get to it.

If there was a chair lift installed in the future, I'm sure the person would rather go across the way to the clubhouse than mess with the chair lift.

Gotta love the building codes and regulations that are designed to protect us...
 
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