1900's to 1920's wood bench with vise. anybody know it's history??

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

ALL: according to Carla this little bench was maybe made in the early 1900's and here's here post on another thread:

Hi, DIF,

Your little bench is an elegant piece of 1900's to '20's Americana......

Several varieties of those may be seen in old catalogues, as 'manual training benches', basic woodworking benches for schools.

They were supplied in various 'price levels', with ones like yours, with a single wooden vise, being the 'basic' version, up to really fancy ones in polished oak, with iron face and tail vises, and a number of drawers for tools.

cheers

Carla

so i'd like to know it's history if anybody might own another or know something about it.

the way the legs are attached with bolts is very OLD SCHOOL and to me the wood didn't look like OLD GROWTH, but maybe this bench didn't originate in the PNW where we had a lot of OLD GROWTH lumber in the early 1900's. in other parts of the US like the east coast i'm guessing OLD GROWTH might have been logged off a 100 or so years prior. the craftsmanship is way above average in my opinion.

the vise works nicely and just needs some BLO on the wood after a light sanding and maybe a little grease on the screw since it doesn't seem to have any currently.

EDIT: the measurements are as follows: the width is 41.5, across the top is 21.5 (still an inch too big for my space) and 33 inches tall.

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

more pictures:

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

Any comments??

here's a few more pictures:

thehorse13 · Nov 6, 2016

People ask insane money for the top end versions of these benches. There are several here in my area that have the drawers and other decorative elements with prices marked at a few thousand bucks.

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

TH: does this bench look like it's early 1900's to your eye?

inlikeflint · Nov 6, 2016

Is there a name plate or some sort of makers mark or brand on the table anywhere?

Lots of woodworking tables are made by the woodworkers that own them.

The St.Louis wood clamp might be from another table, or came out of Sears catalog or JC Whitney...

How do you know it was made in 1920?
I've seen a lot of wood benches at estate sales and they are usually out of my price range.

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

Flint: no name plate that i've found yet. while the wood doesn't have the look of the old growth wood i usually see around the PNW on other wood benches i've owned and seen the hardware and the style in which it was put together does. it doesn't look homemade, but of course it could be cause the better wood workers surely had the talent to make one like this.

thanks for stopping in and giving up your thoughts.

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

ALL: would there be any reason why i shouldn't lightly sand the bench and put some BLO on it and maybe spiff up the vise too? i would like to get something on the wood to keep it from cracking.

is there anything i could or should put on the 2x4 feet to protect them?

thanks everybody and i agree the big old wood benches that have a certain look really do have big price tags on them.

jywilli69 · Nov 6, 2016

That work bench is way cool.

Boatman53 · Nov 6, 2016

Thanks for posting this Drives. I think the vise might be older than the bench, just my guess. Are the legs a full 2"x4"?
The vise is what interests me it looks like it can be end for ended so the that metal 'v' plate will be uppermost. What are the dimensions of dynamic jaw when you get a chance.
Jim

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

Boatman: thanks for stopping in. i agree that the wood looks a bit newer than early 1900's cause it's planed, but all the hardware is from that era and it looks original.

the vise is interesting and Outlaw mentioned that it might work to hole items in place on the surface of the table using DOGS in the holes sort of like a workmate bench.

i was going to just stick this bench outside under a tarp and use it to set my compound miter saw on when i build a fence and deck this next spring and summer and now it's in storage and I need to move a ton of stuff so i can gain 1.5 inches and put it in my garage. it looked ok in the pictures, but in person it has that LOOK if you know what i mean. it's a KEEPER.

I'm going to guess the jaw width is 5 inches and i'll post the dimensions soon of the entire bench that is about 41 inches wide and 22.5 inches deep and 33 inches tall is close to them.

JY: I AGREE and thanks for saying so. :beer:

ALL: anybody have any advice for restoring this or is it ok to lightly sand and put on some BLO?

cheers

cbacres · Nov 6, 2016

Drives, I don't think this is it, but a similar bench. I came across when researching a Sheldon vise.

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

CB: thanks for the picture. the bolted joints on those benches are similar to mine.

speaking of vises i saw you found a Craftsman 5191 so congrats. i forgot to comment on the vise thread but i will in a minute and had a question about yours.

i'd love a Sheldon wood vise cause it just has that LOOK.

cheers

Boatman53 · Nov 6, 2016

I forgot to say a light sanding followed by some BLO would be fine.
Jim

Zeke · Nov 6, 2016

Boatman53 said:
I forgot to say a light sanding followed by some BLO would be fine.
Jim

I prefer using a smoothing plane and a cabinet scraper. But any care is better than none.

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

ZEKE: i'll have to Google cabinet scraper or do you have a picture of one handy you can post.

thanks

Boatman: need any more pictures or details? i'm liking this little bench more and more and i was planning on building a steel table for a spot in my little garage where i have 21 inches of room and i'm thinking of moving maybe close to 2000 pounds or more of stuff to get this 22.5 inch bench in that spot. that's how much i'm liking it.

ALL: any of you also members of the woodworker forums and are there any benches like this over there we might be able to get some information about?

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

Zeke: i just googled cabinet scraper and i bet i own a few of these and didn't know what they were or how to use them.

All: here's a YouTube video on how to use them and how to sharpen them in case you all wanted to know.

another thing i learned on this forum. I've probably seen this being used before and just didn't know what it was or what it was called.

thanks Zeke

Rileysan · Nov 6, 2016

drivesitfar said:
Boatman:

ALL: anybody have any advice for restoring this or is it ok to lightly sand and put on some BLO?

cheers

I can't offer any advice except that which comes from Antiques Roadshow. It it's made of wood, leave the original patina. If the original patina is already gone, go ahead and restore it in whatever way you deem best.

It's a beautiful table, Drives. I would think twice about leaving it outside - even if it's covered.

Brian

kwoswalt99 · Nov 6, 2016

Man you really love that BLO. :lol:

drivesitfar · Nov 6, 2016

Riley: as I mentioned this little bench IS NOT going to spend any time outside cause I like it more and more and just need to move some stuff around in my little garage to make room for it.

99: I used to love WD 40 as my go to de ruster until i found GJ now i use BLO on all my old steel, cast iron and it works pretty good wood too. :beer:

Zeke: now that i've watched 4 videos of guys and a gal using and sharpening a scraper what finish would you put on it. BLO or do you have a favorite and would you maybe use a 180 grit sandpaper or just leave it as the scrapper finished it?

bulletpruf · Nov 7, 2016

Rileysan said:
It it's made of wood, leave the original patina.

This ^^^

drivesitfar · Nov 7, 2016

BP: i tend to always agree with that thinking especially if it's in great shape to use or i like the looks. we'll see if i can find a permanent spot in my garage for it and then i'll ponder what or how to finish it or just leave it alone.

ALL: i have a spot 21 inches that i was going to make a steel table for grinders and vises to use with, but this wood one would look pretty cool there since it's next to the garage door and it would be the first thing to see when doors are open. unfortunately i have to move 4 huge blueprint cabinets full of tools, a file cabinet full of stuff and raise a work bench 1/2 inch to get this 22.5 inch bench in that spot. i just moved another cabinet in the garage anyway so maybe while it's a mess i'll just take it further apart and then put it back together.

since i'm on a GET HEALTHY path i might do it and just consider it exercise.

cheers and any more comments on this bench are welcomed if you might have any to share and of course if it was for sale like this in a catalog i'd be even more interested in having that page posted.

exmaxima1 · Nov 7, 2016

drivesitfar said:
the way the legs are attached with bolts is very OLD SCHOOL and to me the wood didn't look like OLD GROWTH, but maybe this bench didn't originate in the PNW where we had a lot of OLD GROWTH lumber in the early 1900's. in other parts of the US like the east coast i'm guessing OLD GROWTH might have been logged off a 100 or so years prior. the craftsmanship is way above average in my opinion.

Drives, I don't know why you call the bolted construction "old school". How else can you connect a bolt or screw to end grain? You need a nut (or cross-nut) in an access hole just as shown in your pics. You certainly wouldn't expect anyone that's actually worked with wood to use a lag screw in the ends of the stringers like you see on all those worthless HGTV shows would you? You can go to any Menards are still buy threaded cross dowels for exactly this application---probably as replacements for alot of Ikea furniture.

Regarding the wood, the legs don't look all that old judging from the knots. The top looks like Douglas Fir

drivesitfar · Nov 7, 2016

EX: i agree with the wood look and not so much about the bolting comparison. even though the wood looks newer or in great shape the hardware with the old slotted screws and square headed bolts and nuts do have the look of pre WWII or a few years prior to that.

most of the old wood tables i've found or seen are somehow notched or dove tailed and glued with maybe a few screws or nails and not many (or any) bolted like this especially with 6 inch bolts.

ALL: I just measured the table and vise and to my surprise the vise's width was only 3.5 inches. i guess it looked a lot bigger laying on the side in the back of my Honda Pilot. the width is 41.5, across the top is 21.5 (still an inch too big for my space) and 33 inches tall. a freind of mine was at his unit across from mine and i showed it to him and he was impressed and i've shown him some pretty nice stuff in the past. he also mentioned his grand dad (friend is also about 60 like i am) had an old bench like this in his shed and now is shaking his head that it probably still isn't in his family and was probably left in the shed when they sold the house.

a couple more pictures just because.

jimreed2160 · Nov 7, 2016

Nice ww bench. I think it began life in a school sometime around 1875. The vise castings look 19th century to me. After a lifetime of abuse, someone saved the vise and perhaps the top, and made a new base of pine to replace the original oak or ash base.

Traditional ww benches are copied from Roman designs. Even current European benches look very Roman. They have a tail vise on the right handed end like yours. Most also have a shoulder vise on the left hand front. That one seems to be missing on yours. It is the one that would be used with the dog holes on the side. That is where you hold long boards for jointing.

BLO is a good finish if you dilute it correctly. Too much linseed oil will turn the wood dark. I give my bench a rubdown with BLO about once a year with a 90/10 mix of turps/BLO. Twenty years into this treatment and it is only slightly dark. I add the same mixture to the base about once a decade.

Good luck with your bench. Make some bench dogs and get a handplane.

LesserSon · Nov 7, 2016

I agree with your thought about the vise being older than the bench. And that the bench is not made of old growth. Here in PA most of the old growth was cut between 1850 and 1900. Secondary growth like your bench wouldn't come to market till decades later. The fastners and jointery are designed to allow it to be knocked down for moving. That might be for shipping from a factory, but it could be a home- or schoold-built where the maker expected to move it sometime. A lot of shop furniture was built in vocational classrooms by simply copying a few factory-built originals again and again. I think the material and assembly techniques look mid-20th century. If there's any finish on it, I'd guess it's an oil varnish (not urethane) or shellac. The holes in the apron are for supporting long boards, and make me wonder if there's evidence it had a face vise on it at some time. The holes in the top are probably for bench dogs, but they seem a little small, and don't really seem to relate in pairs to the vise that's on it now. Maybe originally for sash making or other fairly wide rectangular assembly?
Nice piece, mystery to ponder.

exmaxima1 · Nov 7, 2016

The more I look at it, the more I see an older top and vise, maybe early 1900's and a newer base less than 40 years old. And the square headed bolts and nuts were used well into the 1960's.

L43dean · Nov 7, 2016

drivesitfar said:
ALL: would there be any reason why i shouldn't lightly sand the bench and put some BLO on it and maybe spiff up the vise too? i would like to get something on the wood to keep it from cracking.

is there anything i could or should put on the 2x4 feet to protect them?

thanks everybody and i agree the big old wood benches that have a certain look really do have big price tags on them.

If you sand it go easy. You want to keep the top FLAT. No dips or low spots. Use a large sanding block if you must sand. I would just clean it and maybe wipe on a little linseed oil or Watco. Good find!

drivesitfar · Nov 7, 2016

JIM: would you like to start a thread in fabrication maybe called WOODWORKING 101? i have been to the woodworking forums and for my money i'd rather stay right here on GJ and listen to the collective talent on here and maybe watch a few YouTube videos. thanks for your take on the bench and you might be right or not cause it's really hard to say. also i own about 30 or so hand planes and when i get organized and my shop set up i'm hoping to use a few of them. as far as i know bench dogs look like short pieces of dowels and i've never had the space for a nice wood shop, but as mentioned i have gathered quite few tools. i own a Dewalt planer, Jet 6 inch planer, 30 or maybe more hand planes, Dewalt 12 inch compound miter, 2 makita chop saws, hand saws, Fien multy tool and a bunch of other tools along with a shop smith sitting in my dad's basement that he gave me that i don't have room for. tell me how to make a bench dog or i'd support your Woodworkking 101 thread and have plenty of questions for you. thanks

Lesser: great thoughts for certain. yes i don't really know if the wood is old, replaced or a knock off. what i can tell you is i like it and i've moved maybe 2000 pounds of tools today to move the flat files so i could move the cabinets 2 inches and make room for this bench in my garage. stay tuned and if you have more thoughts, catalog pages or information to share please do. thanks

EX: i suppose you are right about the square nuts, but i wouldn't say you could ever buy this bench at Ikea or Dania or some modern furniture store. it really doesn't look like it's been re build, but when i get it set up i'll take more pictures of the bolts, angle iron, vise and bolts to maybe give us more clues. stay tuned

Dean: thanks for the KUDOS and i won't do anything major to this bench that is for certain, but i might spiff it up a bit. i'm not saying i have much talent working with wood cause i'm more of a wood butcher, but i did build this good size cedar Pergola from scratch 4 years ago and then last month i took it apart to make some adjustments to remove the ants and then sanded it and re stained it and bolted it back together. a couple pics just for you wood guys and gals in case you need a visual. before and after sanding and re staining.

ALL: thanks for the comments and i did make the space so tomorrow i'll post up a few pictures with the bench in place and as you can see my garage is a mess cause i just moved in two other new (to me) metal cabinets last week. Pictures might be the day with the bench in place cause i'm putting in a new front door tomorrow if my BIL shows up.

cheers

CRSINMICH · Nov 8, 2016

Drives: Here are those Manual Training Workbench pictures from a 1912 Simmonds "Keen Kutter" catalog.

CRSINMICH · Nov 8, 2016

Found a few more. These were in an 1899 catalog from Hibbart, Spencer & Bartlett.

drivesitfar · Nov 9, 2016

CRS: thanks for the catalog pictures and even though mine isn't in there mine certainly does have that LOOK.

ALL: i still haven't filled my huge flat file cabinets back up (installed a new front door yesterday), but as you can see I was able to get the bench inside my 10x15 garage. of course I forgot to account for the safety eye down near the floor cause i thought the table's legs were a bit higher and luckily made it by about 1/4 of an inch or maybe less.

for all of you WOODWORKERS and WOOD BUTCHERS MR. REED is going to start a WOODWORKERS 101 thread in general tools where we can all share our projects, questions and learn from him since he was maybe 3 when he started working on wood. i'll post up a link here and do my best to read every post on that thread that hopefully will have plenty of information and pictures.

speaking of front door here's my before and after. i still have some inside trim to finish and some painting on the trim and threshold, but we were lucky and had a dry and 70 degree day. i also added a bit of security since i did have a an extra piece of steel handy.

drivesitfar · Nov 9, 2016

All: Jim started the woodworking 101 thread in general tools and here's the link for it in my sig line. stop in and give it a look and your support so others will post what they know and make. i'm sure it will be one of the better threads on GJ cause while i like steel i also like old wood too and maybe more so since i can't make steel.

turbowoodworker · Nov 9, 2016

drivesitfar said:
TH: does this bench look like it's early 1900's to your eye?

That bench has some elements of a "Roubo" bench but not identical. The Vise is a bit unusual how it looks like a post vise but tilts. Because it has metal components, my guess would be that it is not that old as woodworkers of the turn of the century preferred wooden vise screws. But sometimes people use what they have.

A cabinetmaker's bench, like the toolbox, were usually projects that were completed as an apprentice. Therefore most were homemade to fit the user's needs and may not be identical to a catalogue item. Most builder's incorporate ideas for function and utilize the material at hand. There were no Rocklers or Woodcraft on the corner.

As to the method of joining the legs with a bed bolt, or crossbolt, that is typical.

I just don't think the bench is that old.
Just my opinion.

BTW, I would not touch the top unless it is no longer flat. In that case I'd use a plane.

drivesitfar · Nov 9, 2016

Turbo: of course you could be right about the age, but i don't have much history of my bench prior to the seller owning it for maybe the last 20 years. thanks for adding your thoughts.

ALL: for now i'll leave the bench AS IS until i decide what i'm going to use it for. i might also turn it around so i can use the vise from my wife's side of the garage that usually doesn't have a car in it. also so i don't bang on the vise with my hip or my cart and damage either.

i was looking at a few ads and found this old wood table of similar design with a standard wood vise on it and the same bolting pattern to put the legs together. these little benches have a nice look to them and no wonder there are several cheap imported copies selling now.

as far as putting on straight BLO to protect the wood is it ok to do so and the only negative is that the table's patina might get darker? also the top is very flat and just has a crack where a couple boards were glued together. also if anybody knows how to make bench dogs and wants to post how on the new woodworking 101 thread i'd probably make a few when i have some time.

CRSINMICH · Nov 11, 2016

drivesitfar;6092314 as far as putting on straight BLO to protect the wood is it ok to do so and the only negative is that the table's patina might get darker? also the top is very flat and just has a crack where a couple boards were glued together. also if anybody knows how to make bench dogs and wants to post how on the new woodworking 101 thread i'd probably make a few when i have some time.[/QUOTE said:
Drives: Be careful putting BLO on the top of that bench. It will absorb quickly in the areas where the original finish has worn away and it won't absorb at all where the original finish is intact. The results could be blotchy.

jimreed2160 · Nov 11, 2016

Bench dogs
I had a bench once with round dogs. They were OK for light work but tended to rotate when stressed. For simple projects, pick up some hex bolts that fit and wrap the threads in duck tape to protect the dog hole. For heavy work, I suggest a caul and you can use the same bolts if they are long enough. The caul should be as long as the bench is wide and thinner than your project wood. Since most modern wood is dressed to 13/16, you can go with 1/2 to start. You can also make one out of a 2x4 for those really big projects.

Lay your caul board on the bench and drill two holes that match the dog holes in each row. To use, just drop your bolt through the hole in the caul into the hole in the bench. Now you have an excellent stop that you can force your project against.

drivesitfar · Nov 11, 2016

CRS: thanks for the tip on the BLO. :beer:

Jim: before i google and find out what a Caul is or the meaning of the word that might be a good one to mention on Woodworking 101 thread to add to your list. Thanks again for starting that thread and i hope me adding my little homeowner projects isn't a big distraction to the teaching you and the others will be doing. i'm hoping it adds a little color and maybe a bit more to the thread.

thanks for a new word that i didn't know when you casually mention CAUL.

cheers

1900's to 1920's wood bench with vise. anybody know it's history??

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