36x40x14 Lighting Layout

Farmallboy15 · Feb 8, 2018

Hi all,
This is my first post but I have been lurking now for a couple weeks. This spring I am building a new 36x40x14 pole barn shop and am looking for some lighting advice. Any suggestions on general layout and heater/fan location would also be graciously accepted.

I am planning on using 8', 4 light 54T5HO fixtures unless someone has a better suggestion. I'm leaning towards the T5's over LED's due to ease of replacement.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithoni...ture-TZR-2-54T5HO-MVOLT-1-4-GEB10PS/202516724

The ceiling will be white sheetmetal and the walls will be OSB. Anyways here is my proposed layout of workbenches / bays. Each cell is 1ft. The yellow cells are where I'm roughly thinking of putting lights. The dark borders are where the garage doors should open to.

Any suggestions or alternate layouts / products would be greatly appreciated!

cybrdyke · Feb 8, 2018

Farmallboy15 said:
I'm leaning towards the T5's over LED's due to ease of replacement.

Not sure what you mean by this. Can you please explain?
CD

Farmallboy15 · Feb 8, 2018

My thought process is that if a T5 bulb burns out, I can just replace the bulb vs replacing the entire fixture if an LED stops working.

cybrdyke · Feb 8, 2018

Farmallboy15 said:
My thought process is that if a T5 bulb burns out, I can just replace the bulb vs replacing the entire fixture if an LED stops working.

T5HO lamps have a 50% death rate (B50) at 25,000 hours. Using however many hours you think you'll have the lights ON, you can do the math on how much bulb changing you'll do.

The latest LED highbay fixtures have an L70 rating of nearly 200,000 hours, 8 times longer than the T5HO lamps.
L70 means "Life @70%". In other words, how long does it take before the fixture is only 70% as bright as the day you put it up?.

Plus, with new LED fixtures, you'll have at least a 5 year warranty and you'll have the ability to dim.

Good luck,
CD

Farmallboy15 · Feb 8, 2018

cybrdyke said:
Plus, with new LED fixtures, you'll have at least a 5 year warranty and you'll have the ability to dim.

CD thanks for the info to consider in my lighting choice. The dimming and warranty would be nice! I did run the numbers though based on Platonic's "The best light fixture ever!". I am not an electrical / lighting engineer so correct me if i'm wrong.

Assumptions:
1,000 hr use per year ~20hrs per week (weekend use mostly)
$0.12 per KWH (United States Average per Google)
160,000 lumens needed for the 1440sq ft = roughly 111 candle feet
25,000 hr life of the T5's based on your post (specs list 36,000hrs)
200,000 hr life of the LED's based on your post (specs list 50,000hrs+)

Lights:
T5 Fixture: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithoni...ture-TZR-2-54T5HO-MVOLT-1-4-GEB10PS/202516724
T5 Bulbs: https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/152922/GE-46760.html

9 lights needed for the 160,000 lumens =$666 initial investment
216 KWH per year = $26/yr operating cost
Bulb replacement every 25 years = $100

LED Fixture: https://www.shineretrofits.com/maxl...d.html?utm_source=connexity&utm_medium=search
LED Bulbs: https://greenlightdepot.com/collect...d-linear-versa-tube-ul-dlc?variant=3706824644

32 lights needed for the 160,000 lumens =$1024 initial investment
36 KWH per year = $4/yr operating cost

Initial Cost:
T5- $666
LED- $1024

Overall Cost At 10 years:
T5- $926
LED- $1064

Break even around 16 years

Overall Cost At 25 years:
T5- $1416 (w/ bulb replacement @$100)
LED- $1124

Overall Cost At 50 years:
T5- $2166 (w/ a 2nd bulb replacement)
LED- $1224

I like that the LED's use less energy and have a dirt cheap operating cost but from my point of view I would much rather have $400 on the front end than an extra $22 per year. If these were to be run every day, all day, the LED's would win hands down. I also understand that the life expectancy of the LED's is much greater than the T5's but to think that the same Chinese bulbs will still be working in 50 years is a little extreme. Also, I would expect that in 25 years both of these options will be obsolete and electricity prices will have gone up.

Is there anything else I should take into account? Anyways, :dunno:

does the lighting layout look okay?

cybrdyke · Feb 8, 2018

Farmallboy15 said:
CD thanks for the info to consider in my lighting choice. The dimming and warranty would be nice! I did run the numbers though based on Platonic's "The best light fixture ever!". I am not an electrical / lighting engineer so correct me if i'm wrong.

Assumptions:
1,000 hr use per year ~20hrs per week (weekend use mostly)
$0.12 per KWH (United States Average per Google)
160,000 lumens needed for the 1440sq ft = roughly 111 candle feet
25,000 hr life of the T5's based on your post (specs list 36,000hrs)
200,000 hr life of the LED's based on your post (specs list 50,000hrs+)

Lights:
T5 Fixture: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithoni...ture-TZR-2-54T5HO-MVOLT-1-4-GEB10PS/202516724
T5 Bulbs: https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/152922/GE-46760.html

9 lights needed for the 160,000 lumens =$666 initial investment
216 KWH per year = $26/yr operating cost
Bulb replacement every 25 years = $100

LED Fixture: https://www.shineretrofits.com/maxl...d.html?utm_source=connexity&utm_medium=search
LED Bulbs: https://greenlightdepot.com/collect...d-linear-versa-tube-ul-dlc?variant=3706824644

32 lights needed for the 160,000 lumens =$1024 initial investment
36 KWH per year = $4/yr operating cost

Initial Cost:
T5- $666
LED- $1024

Overall Cost At 10 years:
T5- $926
LED- $1064

Break even around 16 years

Overall Cost At 25 years:
T5- $1416 (w/ bulb replacement @$100)
LED- $1124

Overall Cost At 50 years:
T5- $2166 (w/ a 2nd bulb replacement)
LED- $1224

I like that the LED's use less energy and have a dirt cheap operating cost but from my point of view I would much rather have $400 on the front end than an extra $22 per year. If these were to be run every day, all day, the LED's would win hands down. I also understand that the life expectancy of the LED's is much greater than the T5's but to think that the same Chinese bulbs will still be working in 50 years is a little extreme. Also, I would expect that in 25 years both of these options will be obsolete and electricity prices will have gone up.

Is there anything else I should take into account? Anyways, does the lighting layout look okay?

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you were thinking of using LED highbay fixtures, instead of the LED linear tubes.
First, I'll correct my own figures...
Yes, the T5HO tubes you've selected are rated at a 50% death rate of 36,000 hours if you use them at 12 hours per start. It doesnt sound like you are, but that's splitting hairs. Worst case, they're still 30,000 hours. All good there.

The LED tubes are rated for no failures over 50,000 hours, but will have faded out by 30% from brand new. They should still have a 5 year warranty.
1000 hours is very low, so it will be hard for you to regain the extra cost of the LED products, even with their reduced energy consumption. Good eye on that one!

I'm not sure where you got the information about the lumens that you need. Wherever you found it, you should smack that guy upside the head. You cant calculate foot candles by dividing your fixture lumens by your square footage. It doesn't work that way. Kind of a pet peeve of mine, since it seems to be a common mistake on this forum. You will be well below where you think you'll be. Check the lighting layout collection sticky for a similar sized space as yours. You'll see what I mean. (or get someone to do a layout for you)
All of your other calculations seem to be pretty spot on. Well done.
Good luck,
CD

jp828108 · Feb 8, 2018

Have you considered finding the fixtures used, and bypassing the ballast for the led bulbs? could makes the install of led tubs significantly cheaper. Am I missing something with that idea?

Platonic Solid · Feb 9, 2018

The part that's missing is you'll need 20% more lumens out of the fluorescent fixtures to get the same lumens as LED at workplane due to the beam spread difference.

Ralphxj · Feb 9, 2018

If it were me, I would look on Craigslist for used t8 housings and swap in LED bulbs! I picked up my 4 bulb housings (with working bulbs) for $5 each and when I'm ready I will be swapping in LEDs bulbs. I got the light I needed for $20 (4 lights) and then can upgrade the bulbs when I'm ready for less then $200.

I see the t8 housings from $20 all the way down to free on Craigslist around here all the time.

cj7jeep81 · Feb 9, 2018

I have 4' 4 bulb t5ho fixtures in my shop. I light roughly 40'x50' of it with 4 fixtures. My walls are taller (almost 17') so that probably gives me a bit better spread. I don't need sunglasses out there, but also have no complaints about the light. I might add 2 more kinda off set from the others, but not in any hurry.

Here are the fixtures I used.
https://www.menards.com/main/lighti...2133557087.htm?tid=3127263038855979800&ipos=2

Farmallboy15 · Feb 9, 2018

So I think I did some math incorrectly last night...Also, after pouring over the lighting layouts i'm thinking i need to be closer to 260,000 lumens if using T5's or 208,000 lumens if using LED's (20% less than the fluorescent based on Platonic's figures).

Farmallboy15 said:
T5's using the above fixtures
13 lights (52 54W bulbs) needed for the 260,000 lumens =$896 initial investment
2808 KWH per year = $336/yr operating cost

LED's using the above fixtures
42 lights (84 18W bulbs) needed for the 208,000 lumens =$1344 initial investment
1512 KWH per year = $181/yr operating cost

Initial Cost:
T5- $896
LED- $1344

Break even at around 3 years

Overall Cost At 10 years:
T5- $4256
LED- $3154

From this info the LED's are making more sense to me. Once we start getting the walls up, I will have to get an official layout from Platonic. Thanks for all of your help so far.

cj7jeep81 · Feb 9, 2018

Farmallboy15 said:
So I think I did some math incorrectly last night...Also, after pouring over the lighting layouts i'm thinking i need to be closer to 260,000 lumens if using T5's or 208,000 lumens if using LED's (20% less than the fluorescent based on Platonic's figures).

From this info the LED's are making more sense to me. Once we start getting the walls up, I will have to get an official layout from Platonic. Thanks for all of your help so far.

I couldn't imagine needing that much light, but maybe I'm missing out. That's 3 times the amount of T5HO fixtures I have in my shop, and I'm lighting about 33% more square footage than you. Based on those numbers, I would need 17 fixtures (4 times what I have now). I would like to add 2 more fixtures, but 13 more would be insane.

Platonic Solid · Feb 9, 2018

Here's a couple similar spaces for your consideration:

40x42x14

30x40x14

Radix2 · Feb 9, 2018

One other thing to consider is that the light from the LED hibay panels PS has in the links above is much much nicer than the T5HO - it is a nice even illumination over he entire area - not glaring or harsh. The T5ho fixtures with no lens and mirror reflectors are pretty tough to look at if that is the kind you are considering.

With the way LED prices have come down, they are worth a look IMO.

Farmallboy15 · Feb 9, 2018

Platonic Solid said:
Here's a couple similar spaces for your consideration:

40x42x14[/URL]

Platonic, I think you have me sold on (16) 2ft dedicated LED high bays. The cold start and less glare I think will be important. This will put me at 228k lumens total. $211 operation cost per year and around a 4 year break even point vs the T5's. CJ7, if it ends up being too bright, I can always dim it down with the LED's! Plus, the higher output 2ft LED's means a lot less lights to put up vs the T8 conversions... I apologize for things getting so repetitive on the lighting forum, there's just so much information to sift through! Once things start going up I will snap some pictures. Thanks again guys. :beer:

https://www.lightup.com/2ft-led-lin...300w-equiv-dimmable-14300-lumens-lumegen.html

cybrdyke · Feb 9, 2018

Farmallboy15 said:
... i need to be closer to 260,000 lumens if using T5's or 208,000 lumens if using LED's ...

Farmallboy15 said:

This will put me at 228k lumens total.

Click to expand...

Farmallboy, Good to see you're researching this well, and are starting to come to some conclusions that will be good for your space and your wallet.

Just to be clear, shooting for a target of total lumens will not help you determine how many foot candles you will have. I noticed that you've repeated this in your texts a few times, so I wanted to make sure you understood this.
Total lumens is not important in your calculations. Look at the layouts and go with the information provided there. Forget about total lumens.
Good luck,
CD

36x40x14 Lighting Layout

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