Porcelain tiles - my dumb questions thread

eljay · Oct 14, 2020

Well, after my wife said: "we need to get that tile floor in the garage", I knew my subliminal messaging has worked! And who am I to argue with my wife?!

So, onto a brand new chapter in the book of life skills and here come my dumb questions and considerations.
I expect that I will have a professional do the tiling, but I'd like to make sure it's done well and I maybe I can help out along the way to cut down the cost a bit.

First, the specs of the floor:
- 5-year old house with at least 3" slab thickness
- no drain, just slight slope (~3 degrees? or whatever the standard is for construction)
- ~480 sqft
- slab on grade, no basement under.
- a couple of oil stains and some areas with light greasy residue from Rust check, Deep Creep etc. sprays
- slab slopes separately from the foundation wall, which may make some side tiling tricky, I guess.
- one crack that appeared in the first year and stayed the same since

I'm starting hunt for tiles and found these two options at HD and bought a case of each to layout. We like the 12x24 option.
While HD has no specs on that tile, I contacted Mono Serra and they sent me a spec sheet and the key ratings are:
Thickness: 8.5mm (0.33")
PEI: 5
COF dry: 0.77
COF wet: 0.58
Application: Indoor/Outdoor
Chemical resistance: Yes
Frost resistance: Yes
Water absorption: <0.5%

That should work, correct?

Some general questions:
- with the weather turning, is it still time to install the floor? It will probably take a while as it would need to be done in stages and stuff being moved around (just racks, nothing bolted), section cleaned, dried, then tiled, cured, stuff moved over. Or am I better off waiting until the spring, especially, since I have some car work to do?
- with the sloping slab and foundation wall running level and separately, should I tile up only the couple of inchse of the foundation wall, or do another 4" baseboard tile on top of the foundation wall where the MDF trim currently sits? I can post pic if that's easier.
- does the door threshold need to be removed or does tile install around it?
- besides degreasing the stains and the whole slab and filling in the crack (with RedGuard?), is there any other prep?

Thank you!

Dakota00 · Oct 17, 2020

Eljay,

The specs on the tiles are within the parameters of what you want for the garage.

It's late in the season for this type of exterior work, you could still probably get away with tiling your garage now. Only if the overnight temperature stays a few degrees above freezing for the next few weeks. But I would highly recommend waiting until spring time where you are not rushing to get this job done.

If you're planning to install baseboards, go with a height of 4"-6". Especially is you like to wash out the garage from time to time.

As for prep, fill the crack, RedGard 2ft on either side of the crack. Treat any oil stains with a degreaser, give the floor a good wash. After allowing adequate drying time, you're ready to prep the area for tile.

duneslider · Oct 18, 2020

I hate working in the cold but as long as it doesn’t dip below freezing in your garage everything will be fine. You could even use fast setting thinset if you wanted but that may not be recommended if you aren’t working fast.

So, depending on your location you may be fine to get going on it.

Dakota00 · Oct 18, 2020

Duneslider,

Great to see you back on GJ!

eljay · Oct 18, 2020

Thank you both!
I still haven't heard back from the tile guy, so I'll see what he says about the timing of this job and I'll go from there.

The garage is always kept at 10C and the mechanical room opens to the garage, so I can "heat it up" some more temporarily if needed.
But, yes, the part by the door will always be very cold.

duneslider · Oct 18, 2020

Dakota00 said:
Duneslider,

Great to see you back on GJ!

I bounce back through every now and then but haven't spent too much quality time on here in a while.

As long as it doesn't freeze in the garage the thinset will cure just fine but you might want to give it an extra day or two before getting on it.

duneslider · Oct 18, 2020

Another tip, if it is a little on the colder side mix the thinset with warm water and not ice cold water. It makes a big difference and will set quicker.

HOWEVER...10c is 50degree F so I wouldn't hesitate to tile that thing up any day of the week. That is good long sleeve working temp! Get after that floor and get it done!

I did a house once and someone opened up the sliding door in the kitchen after I left and I came back the next morning to frost on the floor I had set the day before. I was a little worried about it but once it warmed up everything seemed fine. I popped a tile up in the door before grouting a few days later and it was stuck! I think it had cured enough before the door was opened and it got cold that night. You have to remember that portland cement when it gets wet starts a chemical reaction and nothing can stop it. If it gets cold and freezes that expands the water before the portland has done its job and created a strong enough structure to resist the expansion and that is what cause a problem. Most modified thinsets have the ability to resist a fair amount of expansion without issue due to the elasticity the modifiers create.

Long story short, get that floor done.

eljay · Oct 28, 2020

I have a tile guy lined up and can likely start within the next two weeks.
So, now it's a race to work out the final fine details.
I will do the floor prep, especially, since he doesn't seems all that concerned about fully degreasing the floor not sealing the crack I have. I did make a point that I'd like all tiles back buttered to ensure full coverage and no air pockets to handle anything I can throw at them.
Any specific thinset mortar and grout I should use? I know epoxy is recommended for grout for the garage, correct? I just want to make sure my guy gets the right stuff as initially he said to use normal grout and sealant on top of it, but I think the sealant would wear off over time and oil and other stuff may soak into the grout, right?

I also have some other questions about the edges and perimeter of the garage. I am attaching the floor plan and pictures of the areas in question.
Since the garage slopes around 3 degrees, the slab is detached from the foundation wall and I have 4" MDF trim all around at the bottom of the drywall. I will not be washing out the garage much since I have a side door on one side and on the opposite side is a baseboard heater. Since I won't be spraying water on the sides, perhaps I can just use a normal quarter-round and leave the MDF trim as is. That's what the tile guy also suggested.
It would save ripping up the MDF trim etc.
Are there any solutions for the portion of the foundation exposed on the sides? Is tiling that worth it, or should I apply some concrete sealant on it once the tiling is finished? Or any other product to cover it up and lip under the edges of the tiles?

And lastly, about the pattern and starting point, I'm thinking of getting him to start at the main garage door with the Schluter RenoRamp to avoid multiple small pieces there and work up towards the top of the garage. The pattern of the 12x24" would be like in the first picture with 1/3 offset.
Does that make sense?
I also noticed that the tiles from a package do make up a certain if arranged together. But I think that works only when they are no offset, so perhaps I shouldn't worry about that.

Once I finalize the plan, I will order those tiles and get going. Can't wait!
Thank you again!

Zippercat · Oct 28, 2020

I’m sure others with more expertise will respond, but I suggest you take a look at Mapei Ultracolor Plus FA grout. Lot easier to use than epoxy.

ace10 · Oct 28, 2020

If it was my place, I'd pull the wall base and run the tile to the wall. Then either try to reuse what you've got or refresh it. Pad it out with 1X if there are a lot of areas like that one picture with the ledge. If there are a lot of irregular situations where wall meets floor you may just need to wing it as you go along. I padded out my wainscoting a bit in order to account for some of these minor "issues." The transition from floor to wall is consistent that way.

I'm using Mapei Flexcolor CQ. I think they consider it an acrylic grout. Premixed, kinda spendy.
I've had about 500 ft2 of it down in one bay for about a year. Strong stuff. I don't think any oil-based stains have managed to find it yet on my 24x24 field. I know you can seal it, but it's not supposed to be necessary. Tubs have been very consistent. I like how it works and fills. Will get a bit dry if you don't work with some haste. Cleanup seems about the same as most other grouts I've used (not a pro by any means). But I am using a grout release on the tiles since they are so grippy.

Planning on grouting another bay tomorrow if I can muster the willpower. Only about 400ft in that one. Tile has been down since Spring of 2019. lol

eljay · Oct 28, 2020

Thanks guys!
That Mapei grout makes sense and seems to be suited for the purpose.

Yes, I am still wondering about the edges. I could remove the trim and get tiles under it against the wall and then put the trim back over the tile or get a 4" base from the tiles. But I'm wondering what I'd gain from that. I don't see 90% of that trim today as I have storage racks on both sides (plus a door and baseboard heater on the sidewalls), toolbox and bench at the front.
So, it's not a situation where stuff will be off the floor and I'm powerwashing the sides of the garage. That's why I'm thinking of leaving it in place.

duneslider · Oct 29, 2020

eljay said:
Thanks guys!
That Mapei grout makes sense and seems to be suited for the purpose.

Yes, I am still wondering about the edges. I could remove the trim and get tiles under it against the wall and then put the trim back over the tile or get a 4" base from the tiles. But I'm wondering what I'd gain from that. I don't see 90% of that trim today as I have storage racks on both sides (plus a door and baseboard heater on the sidewalls), toolbox and bench at the front.
So, it's not a situation where stuff will be off the floor and I'm powerwashing the sides of the garage. That's why I'm thinking of leaving it in place.

I would answer different if this were in the house. If you are fine with quarter round then go for it and leave the trim in place.

I would clean the floor with a good degreaser for sure. What do you mean "seal" the crack?

Reno ramp is good and I would do that also.

Grout is a tough one. Epoxy is super nice and has a lot of advantages. It is also more expensive to buy and install. Urethane/acrylic (premixed) grouts are nice, still more expensive but a little easier to work with but REQUIRE enough dry time before getting wet or they are ruined. The premixed grouts generally have recommendations about steam, heat, power washing, chemicals causing issues. A cement based grout will be as durable as concrete but will be more likely to stain unless you put on a topical sealer. I personally would be hard pressed to spend the money on the epoxy or premixed grouts in a garage and I would do a gray grout and run with it.

If this tile guy doesn't ALWAYS back butter I would be a little bit worried. There are some good thinsets now days that probably would be fine without back buttering as long as you are getting full coverage but I will always be a proponent of back buttering.

Any quality "modified" thinset will be fine. Home Depot and Lowes both carry good stuff. All the tile suppliers also carry good stuff. Home depot has custom's products, don't go cheaper than versabond. However, their flexbond is really nice but double the price. The porcelain thinset is good too, more magic in the bag than versabond but less than flexbond. Lowes can carry different stuff in different areas but should have similarly priced materials that perform the same.

eljay · Nov 5, 2020

duneslider said:
I would answer different if this were in the house. If you are fine with quarter round then go for it and leave the trim in place.

I would clean the floor with a good degreaser for sure. What do you mean "seal" the crack?

Reno ramp is good and I would do that also.

Grout is a tough one. Epoxy is super nice and has a lot of advantages. It is also more expensive to buy and install. Urethane/acrylic (premixed) grouts are nice, still more expensive but a little easier to work with but REQUIRE enough dry time before getting wet or they are ruined. The premixed grouts generally have recommendations about steam, heat, power washing, chemicals causing issues. A cement based grout will be as durable as concrete but will be more likely to stain unless you put on a topical sealer. I personally would be hard pressed to spend the money on the epoxy or premixed grouts in a garage and I would do a gray grout and run with it.

If this tile guy doesn't ALWAYS back butter I would be a little bit worried. There are some good thinsets now days that probably would be fine without back buttering as long as you are getting full coverage but I will always be a proponent of back buttering.

Any quality "modified" thinset will be fine. Home Depot and Lowes both carry good stuff. All the tile suppliers also carry good stuff. Home depot has custom's products, don't go cheaper than versabond. However, their flexbond is really nice but double the price. The porcelain thinset is good too, more magic in the bag than versabond but less than flexbond. Lowes can carry different stuff in different areas but should have similarly priced materials that perform the same.

Thank you.

By "sealing" the crack, I meant applying RedGard to it. I posted a picture of it in the first post.
RedGard is not cheap I come to find. About $100/gallon here as the smallest size.
If I use the FlexBond mortar, will that deal with the crack without RedGard applied? It says that it "Isolates cracks up to 1/16-inch (1.6 mm)". But it's also more than double the price of Versabond.

I gotta get on getting the floor degreased and ready, which will be fun with having to move everything back and forth inside and I suppose using a shop wet vac to **** up degreaser is not a good idea, right?

duneslider · Nov 6, 2020

eljay said:
Thank you.

By "sealing" the crack, I meant applying RedGard to it. I posted a picture of it in the first post.
RedGard is not cheap I come to find. About $100/gallon here as the smallest size.
If I use the FlexBond mortar, will that deal with the crack without RedGard applied? It says that it "Isolates cracks up to 1/16-inch (1.6 mm)". But it's also more than double the price of Versabond.

I gotta get on getting the floor degreased and ready, which will be fun with having to move everything back and forth inside and I suppose using a shop wet vac to **** up degreaser is not a good idea, right?

Redgard at homedepot should be 50 a gallon or close to that for the gallon size? That is online too?

Flexbond will do it but yes it is double the price of versabond. This is a case of you pay for quality and flexbond is twice as good but I have used thousands of bags of versabond and never had an issue. Getting 100% coverage and backbuttering is the key. Versabond and proper install is better than flexbond and crappy install.

Shouldn't hurt the shopvac, I have sucked up worse stuff than degreaser.

eljay · Nov 6, 2020

duneslider said:
Redgard at homedepot should be 50 a gallon or close to that for the gallon size? That is online too?

Flexbond will do it but yes it is double the price of versabond. This is a case of you pay for quality and flexbond is twice as good but I have used thousands of bags of versabond and never had an issue. Getting 100% coverage and backbuttering is the key. Versabond and proper install is better than flexbond and crappy install.

Shouldn't hurt the shopvac, I have sucked up worse stuff than degreaser.

Thanks again.
I am in Canucklandia, so here is my pricing in CAD$ plus 15% tax.
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/cu...d-crack-prevention-membrane-gallon/1000150306
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/cu...ion-medium-bed-mortar-white-50-lb-/1000797773
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/cu...l-fortified-medium-bed-tile-mortar/1000859845

For my 480sqft, I estimate, I'll need 8 bags of mortar with 60sqft/bag coverage.
So, either I spend CAD$350 on FlexBond or CAD$250 on RedGard+VersaBond. So, I am going to try the RedGard route despite the crazy cost per gallon.
I cannot find Schluter Reno-RAMP yet in my area though.

Is Mapei Mapelastic HPG the same thing as RedGard?

CombatNinja · Nov 6, 2020

Don't use quarter round. Do it right and pull the trim, tile all the way to the wall and replace it. Quarter round is one more place to get dust and grime and makes everything stand an additional 1/2" or more away from the wall. That can be enough to make the gap at the back of a workbench large enough for things to be constantly falling off.

duneslider · Nov 6, 2020

Yes, mapelastic is also a crack isolation membrane. I like the color better than redgard [emoji3]

Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

Dakota00 · Nov 7, 2020

eljay said:
I cannot find Schluter Reno-RAMP yet in my area though.

If you're in the GTA, you'll find the Reno-Ramp at Ciot.

eljay · Nov 7, 2020

Excellent. Mapelastic is half the price of RedGard.

I'm in Nova Scotia. I'll keep looking.

eljay · Nov 7, 2020

CombatNinja said:
Don't use quarter round. Do it right and pull the trim, tile all the way to the wall and replace it. Quarter round is one more place to get dust and grime and makes everything stand an additional 1/2" or more away from the wall. That can be enough to make the gap at the back of a workbench large enough for things to be constantly falling off.

Good points. However, both my workbench and toolbox legs are not flush against the trim at the moment in the back of the garage and on the sides the trim sits on the foundation wall and not the slab.
But quarter round will make my shelves not flush on the sides. Hmmm. Shall I just use some simlle L-shaped thin aluminum for the sides and grout or caulk the edges of tiles against that?

CombatNinja · Nov 7, 2020

My consistent goal with my garage with respect to the wall/floor junction is to have a clean transition with minimal depth the any trim boards. Ideally, the walls and trim are painted with a nice glossy paint and the floor has some sort of coating so that I can get the whole thing from "Oh man, I have been away for 4 months and my wife clearly did not so much as sweep the garage once" to "good enough for a garage" in about 5 minutes with my leaf blower. This is of course contingent on me keeping absolutely NOTHING on the floor. Everything is in wall-mounted cabinets. The only things that are on my floor are the water heater and my workbench & tool chest. The tool chest is on wheels so it is easy to move.

ace10 · Nov 7, 2020

In the States, Schluter profiles are available from Home Depot. I ordered all of my expansion, ramp and step profiles over the web. Returned the ones I didn't like or need back to the store.

ace10 · Nov 7, 2020

My slab had plenty of small contraction cracks. We did not do any control joints or cuts when the slab was placed because I didn't want to have to deal with that when tiling.

On the cracks, I'm using a narrow strips of Laticrete's fracture control membrane in conjunction with their Hydro Ban liquid membrane. It's sold in rolls of 6" width.

I tried full coverage with liquid membrane and didn't like the results. And my testing showed that it didn't add anything to the system. I'm using Mapei Ultraflex LFT in a thin to medium bed. In the low spots I'm using 0.5-0.75" of thinset to keep the tile surface level.

I wouldn't try to save money on the thinset.

ace10 · Nov 7, 2020

Current project is wall base for the finished bays.

Using smooth 1x6 PVC for the transition from wainscoting to tile. Filling the gap behind with insect block expanding foam. Trim will be attached with screws concealed behind pvc plugs. Also using pvc foam tape to close any gaps under and behind the wall base.

ace10 · Nov 7, 2020

CombatNinja · Nov 7, 2020

That is slick, ace10. Well done and should be sealed up about as tight as you can get a stick framed building against insects. I was in a constant battle with spiders, lizards and even little frogs until I went all out on sealing the building as tight as I could get it. Insects have been cut down by 95%. Now I only get a very occasional one that gets past the overhead door seals or just moseys in when the door is open. Any time and money spent keeping these pests out is well spent in my opinion.

ace10 · Nov 7, 2020

Crickets and ground spiders are ever present. I'm hoping these measures will keep some of them out and eliminate all the cozy hiding places for the ones that do get in.

ace10 · Nov 7, 2020

Bulk PVC foam tape was very reasonable from these guys.
Arrived day after placing the order.

CombatNinja · Nov 7, 2020

If I can keep the bastards out in southern North Carolina, you should be able to defeat them in northern Virginia. Keep up the fight!

eljay · Nov 11, 2020

CombatNinja said:
My consistent goal with my garage with respect to the wall/floor junction is to have a clean transition with minimal depth the any trim boards. Ideally, the walls and trim are painted with a nice glossy paint and the floor has some sort of coating so that I can get the whole thing from "Oh man, I have been away for 4 months and my wife clearly did not so much as sweep the garage once" to "good enough for a garage" in about 5 minutes with my leaf blower. This is of course contingent on me keeping absolutely NOTHING on the floor. Everything is in wall-mounted cabinets. The only things that are on my floor are the water heater and my workbench & tool chest. The tool chest is on wheels so it is easy to move.

I agree, but I don't have smooth transition as is, so tiling around it would be very tricky. I'll post additional pictures.

Plus I have 3 doors inside the garage (to the house, to the mechanical room, and to the outside). So, I would have to cut the bottom of the trim around each door perfectly and then tile and then figure some good looking transition and I woukd still be tiling against the door sills for each of the doors. I just don't think I'd gain much there for my use.

I started clearing the garage as much as I can, so I can move things between the two halves as srctions are completed. I will start scrubbing the grease spots tonight.

The tiling guy is confirmed for this weekend!!
Wish me luck and any last tips to stress with the installation are most welcome.

Dakota00 · Nov 13, 2020

Make sure to take lots of pictures!!

Angelfire · Nov 13, 2020

My advice since you hired it out is just to absolutely make sure the installer understands and is putting full coverage of thinset on the back of the tile as well as the floor. Make sure he's back buttering those tiles! I think you'll like the floor when it's all done assuming it's done right. You can do a high level check by bouncing a golf ball or similar off the individual tiles. They should all sound solid. A hollow sound will indicate you don't have full coverage. I am really glad I went this route.
Cheers.

eljay · Nov 14, 2020

It's happening!
https://imgur.com/a/HVOtR4y

The guy only did thise 5 rows today.

But he is taking time to work with the floor.
He's using Mapei Ultraflex LFT and Ultracolor for grout. They seem like good products. Also, he's doing 1/16" grout, so that will be nice for rolling things around.

He couldn't get the Reno-Ramp, so he brought another transition piece. But I didn't like it as if would create a jump to overcome when rolling things in/out if the garage, so I insisted on the Ramp. He measured and left space for tiles and ramp in the front and will do that last.

I just hope he gets more done tomorrow.

This is very exciting!
Thanks again guys. Here is where I found the inspiration. I'll post more pics when itdone.

duneslider · Nov 17, 2020

LFT is a great thinset and good for this application. Ultracolor is basically just a portland based grout, a good grout, but it will behave pretty much like concrete. SO...if you don't seal it good it will stain and discolor. A penetrating sealer will go in and fill the "pores" in an attempt to prevent staining. It won't work great against oils but will leave the grout looking pretty natural. A topical sealer will go over the top and seal the whole top and this usually does a better job of preventing stains but generally also changes the look of the grout, generally looks darker and sometimes more "glossy".

Both will have to be reapplied regularly. In a garage, I would probably not stress it and just let nature run its course but that is generally how I feel about the concrete in the garage too...

eljay · Nov 17, 2020

Thank you duneslider!

I will look for some sealer. Any recommendations?

It's about 80% done now and the Schluter Ramp is in as well! Slow progress, but I must say the guy is taking his time to do it right and ensuring a good level application with full back-butter etc.
He said he'll check for some recommended grout sealant for workshop-type environment, too.

I can't wait for this weekend to start moving stuff back in. Actually, I really wish I didn't have so much stuff to move back in and just keep it open, but it's a workspace, not a showroom.

duneslider · Nov 17, 2020

eljay said:
Thank you duneslider!

I will look for some sealer. Any recommendations?

It's about 80% done now and the Schluter Ramp is in as well! Slow progress, but I must say the guy is taking his time to do it right and ensuring a good level application with full back-butter etc.
He said he'll check for some recommended grout sealant for workshop-type environment, too.

I can't wait for this weekend to start moving stuff back in. Actually, I really wish I didn't have so much stuff to move back in and just keep it open, but it's a workspace, not a showroom.

Honestly, the TS210 concrete sealer is probably a great topical grout sealer. I never used a lot of the topical grout sealers, they are a pain to put on grout and most interior jobs don't need it. I have used a whole lot of Miracle 511 impregnator for a penetrating sealer and it works good. There are nicer ones with higher solids contents which is always better. Sealer choice gold is good. Dupont has a line that is really nice and one of my favorites, Lowes used to sell it so it was convenient but now it is much harder for me to find. For the most part, the more you spend on the sealer the better it will be.

eljay · Nov 18, 2020

Thank you. I will look for 511 or similar for the grout. And is it safe to say that my glazed porcelain tile does not need any sealing, correct? In fact, I don't want to introduce any slipperiness, so I think that answers my own question.

duneslider · Nov 18, 2020

eljay said:
Thank you. I will look for 511 or similar for the grout. And is it safe to say that my glazed porcelain tile does not need any sealing, correct? In fact, I don't want to introduce any slipperiness, so I think that answers my own question.

Glazed is as sealed an anything can be, basically a "glass" finish on the top of the tile.

eljay · Nov 21, 2020

Another question...
How long shall I wait before applying sealer on the grout?
The Mapei spec sheet says 3-4 hours for foot traffic and 72 hours if at the bottom of swimming pool.
It's 12-14C in the garage.
Is 24 hours enough time?

ace10 · Nov 21, 2020

You don't want to put sealer down before the grout is fully cured.

Which, to me, would mean no sooner than the 3 days. But there are usually temperature ranges for the quoted times. If you're below them, then the times would likely be extended.

The grout needs to do what it needs to do. Sealing it may inhibit that action from occuring properly.

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