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Old 07-16-2017, 05:47 AM   #21
gungatim
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
The AMWAY Multi Level Marketing eSpring Unit??????

HAHAHAHAHA

"Best there is"? I'm sure. Don't bother defending it OR doing any research - the Internet is filled with reviews from people selling it (but failing to disclose) mixed in with thos calling out the high priced rip off.

I've always bought generic filters, generic softener components, and generic RO systems/components. Fleck valves on the softener. Buying brand name stuff just means you will pay more. And you will pay more for filters and replacement parts....
why would you chime in just to be a jerk? OP asked me specifically what I used. I didn't hype it or try to sell it. having been in the industry for over 10 years now I happen to know a little something about water filtration, which is obviously more than you if you actually think a generic filter is doing you any good.

and I don't need to defend it or research it, it is no secret where I work and what I do. I happen to know every component and supplier related to the unit as well as the engineers who designed it, not to mention worked on the DOE and statistical validation for the filtration tests the independent labs use.
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:37 AM   #22
LS6 Tommy
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

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Originally Posted by artrem View Post
We have a softener system as well. Here's my understanding of the resin issue: The resin is a crosslinked porous polymeric material which provides the sites where sodium ions sit, and are exchanged with calcium. The brine wash removes the entrapped calcium, replacing it with more sodium. So the effectiveness of the resin depends on the integrity of those pores.

If you have chlorinated water, chlorine will over time, oxidize the resin crosslinks, turning the porous resin into mush, which no longer does the ion exchange and can increase backpressure. This is a slow process and there are formulas to estimate resin life based on average chlorine content. Typically, with about 1 ppm of chlorine the resin is predicted to last about 5 - 7 years. A carbon filter placed in front of the resin bed will remove the chlorine and protect the resin bed from this degradation.

I don't know about other factors that determine resin life but that's what I know about typical city water. The carbon filter eventually needs to be recharged but I think that's more on the order of 10+ years.

Regardless, you might want to get Culligan in and evaluate your system.
Interesting. My system is over 20 years old and softens perfectly. I have a service call in for Tuesday to have a leak at the button valve in the control box. I'll have to speak to the tech about it then. I'm considering upgrading to a self regulating unit anyway, as the timer unit we have now is , well, over 20 years old.

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Old 07-16-2017, 09:30 AM   #23
reader2580
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

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Originally Posted by kbs2244 View Post
RO water reacts with impurities in the copper pipes.

The town my FL condo is in went to whole system RO.
Why did the town choose to go with RO water for the entire water supply? It seems like waste. RO on a small scale wastes three to four gallons for every gallon of usable water. Waste water is less on a large scale system, but still not a cheap way to process water.

My RO system is piped with plastic, but I figured that was to save money over copper.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:55 PM   #24
ard
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by gungatim View Post
why would you chime in just to be a jerk? OP asked me specifically what I used. I didn't hype it or try to sell it. having been in the industry for over 10 years now I happen to know a little something about water filtration, which is obviously more than you if you actually think a generic filter is doing you any good.

and I don't need to defend it or research it, it is no secret where I work and what I do. I happen to know every component and supplier related to the unit as well as the engineers who designed it, not to mention worked on the DOE and statistical validation for the filtration tests the independent labs use.
Didnt know you were an amyway salesman.

Not a fan of MLM scams. Thats all.



Oh you did 'hype it':

Quote:
Originally Posted by gungatim View Post
for the sink faucet, I don't use RO, I have an eSpring unit, uv light kills the bacteria and the patented carbon filter is the best out there. not cheap by any means but the best there is.
.
How is it that nobody else offers this same amazing level of technology other than Amway? Amazing.

In fact, it seems to be a pattern- Amway just seems to have the very best technology for a bunch of things- always 'expensive but the best'

Anyway, sorry for not being very "GJ friendly". As I said, I have a blind spot regarding MLMs
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:39 AM   #25
gungatim
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

first I am NOT an Amway salesman. I am not a fan of MLM business models in any shape or form, which is why I don't hype their products or business model. it works for some and that's great.

That said, working for the side of the business that creates and manufactures the products, I do know what goes into them. we have a TON of proprietary tech, walls and walls of patents. the technology on the water filtration is out there, we just happened to patent many aspects of it first. there are other units with many of the features, but they too are expensive. you can't build in all the tech cheaply unless you have the volume, and this is a limited high end market we happen to "own".

Try getting your share of carbon (which comes from coconut husks) in the optimal particle size you need and get a manufacturer to make the filter block. not that many suppliers out there even capable, as it is not as easy as it sounds (which is why those cheap cartridge filters at the box store are fairly useless).

and yes the stuff is expensive, and is overkill for most people in the US. we sell most of these units in countries that do not have anywhere near the water quality this country enjoys.

Would I pay a grand for one of these? heck no. I use it because it was free and I get the filters for next to nothing.

but water filtration is one of those things that is fear based. people are afraid of what they can't see, and always want the best for their family. that's why there are so many units out there.

do you really need UV to kill bacteria? most people don't. (actually the UV radiation mutates the cells so they can't reproduce and die).

do you need to filter out all the toxins, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, etc. that this unit does? again, not likely.

just don't hate on the unit because you don't like MLM's. the business model only works if the products are extremely high quality/not available elsewhere.

MLM's pop up all the time and fail because there is no point in buying overpriced product you can get at the corner store.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:29 AM   #26
bugnut
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

I too moved into a well water home with a similar setup. Rental softener unit did not do a great water hardness reduction-as tested post softener. Tired quickly of the rental fee. Did a wee bit of research and replaced all with the following: post pressure tank a 10" canister filter 5 micron with charcoal wrap-to help with smell/taste, I change the filter every other month. Post filter a waterboss brand softener-local make made at that time by the same company that makes hague water softeners-15 years later 1 malfunction and parts are available locally. For drinking, ice, cooking and coffee a GE ro system (cheaply made would not buy GE again). When completed had another test and system was much better than old existing-too many years ago to remember ppm's. Hope this helps.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:33 AM   #27
dtbingle
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

Thanks for advice everyone! Obviously many different routes to take.

Softener:
For the softener at this point, the plan is to do a thorough clean of the brine tank and do a before/after hardness measurement to see how well the system is currently working. When it reaches the point that the resin needs replacing or something else breaks, the whole unit will probably be swapped out for that popular fleck 5600 unit mentioned above to have a new unit with readily available parts (and get away from culligan).

Outside Faucet:
Will leave the lines plumbed outside unfiltered.

Couple of questions left:
1) What's the difference between a Home Master 2 or 3 stage whole house filter (here or here) and a Pelican PC600 type whole house filter?
Sure the Pelican is ~$800 and the 2-stage and 3-stage Home Masters are cheaper at $350/$550, but the Pelican seems to have a nice warranty, media lasts 5 year between changes, and the only other filter is a pre-filter for larger sediment. This seems preferable maintenance wise (pre-filter only vs 2-3 for other systems).

2) Some of the whole house filter systems, such as the Pelican PC600 claim to produce "better than bottled water from every tap in your home". If these work that well, would there even be a point to add a RO system for drinking, cooking, coffee, etc?
Similar to #1, it would be preferable to have one unit to maintain that produces good tasting water and prevents build up in sinks, showers, dishes, etc. Consider this against a cheaper whole house 5 micron sediment filter and then having to plumb in and maintain lines and filters for a 5-stage reverse osmosis system for sink and fridge. Seems like RO systems would only be needed with certain cases of water supply (removing lead or high levels of fluoride, etc).

Last edited by dtbingle; 07-17-2017 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:03 PM   #28
myredracer
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

Before wasting $$ on new filters or treatment, the prudent thing to do is take a water sample to a lab for testing. Go there first and they will give you a bottle or two to fill up and there is a procedure when doing this. If it's a community based system, it should meet gov't water standard regulations but I'd still get it tested so you know for sure what might be in it. The water quality can sometimes change by the time it gets to the point of use too. You also want to ensure to use a filter to remove contaminants that you may not know are present.

RO water may be very pure but can taste awful or strange because of the minerals that get removed. Also, a human body needs some of the minerals that are removed. As noted above, RO setups are very inefficient and waste as much as around 5 gallons for every gallon produced. Can use a multi-stage arrangement in some cases to recirculate discharge water for further purification and to reduce waste.

A 5 micron filter may seem pretty fine, but you might want to consider a 1 micron cartridge depending on the water test. Could be installed under a kitchen sink for cooking & drinking only. Doulton makes a nice ceramic cartridge that can be easily cleaned numerous times and re-used.

We use a 50/5 combo cartridge in a 10" housing on our well at home. Particles finer than 5 microns are getting through and we can feel a coating inside the bathtub after draining it. Planning to install a 1 micron filter under the kitchen sink. We're high in calcium which may be good for the body but faucet aerators eventually plug up and need cleaning.

When buying filters, get ones that are NSF certified otherwise you won't know what you are getting. Beware of manufacturers claims... I'd use multiple filters in series rather than a single combo. filter for longer life and bigger is better for longer life too. As well, there are some filter cartridges for specific contaminants that may be present.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:29 PM   #29
wardljc
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

There seems to be a lot of recent innovations in water softening technology lately, is anyone aware of other systems which do not use the Ion Exchange Resin? The sponsor of the Force India F1 Team is a company involved in water softening. Is anyone aware of any new, non-resin water softening systems?
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:32 PM   #30
Pipanski
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

I second the thought of getting your water tested to know exactly what you are dealing with. I have a well and the previous owners had a water softener system for many years but took it out for some reason. We have really high iron and that is the only "issue" with our water. When we had a company come in to test the water he confirmed the iron and told us that a lot of companies will sell... Or rent... Softeners when people really don't need them. I installed a whole house iron filter myself and the media is good for 10+ years and I've done nothing to it since i installed it two years ago.

My point is... Just make sure you actually need a softener.
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:03 AM   #31
dtbingle
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Default Re: Water Softener and Filter Advice

As many of you have suggested, the water has been tested. This is from the community well:




From private test:


What water tests would you look at to determine what micron size filter would best suit
the household?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pipanski View Post
I second the thought of getting your water tested to know exactly what you are dealing with. I have a well and the previous owners had a water softener system for many years but took it out for some reason. We have really high iron and that is the only "issue" with our water. When we had a company come in to test the water he confirmed the iron and told us that a lot of companies will sell... Or rent... Softeners when people really don't need them. I installed a whole house iron filter myself and the media is good for 10+ years and I've done nothing to it since i installed it two years ago.

My point is... Just make sure you actually need a softener.
Like you, I may also have an iron issue. When purging at the main line and changing the typical 10" 5 micron filter, there is a pretty heavy orange'ish rust presence. As for needing the water softener, there is a bunch of mineral build up on faucets and the like. With my brine tank being empty, this makes sense and I suspect that a water softener would help. However, the above tests really only test for the water being safe to drink and omit hardness and iron levels.

Hopefully iron levels are low enough that the water softener can reduce them to an acceptable level and avoid the need for a separate iron unit.

Last edited by dtbingle; 07-18-2017 at 09:10 AM.
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