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Old 07-16-2017, 06:21 PM   #201
mmb617
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

I'll never understand why anyone would buy a house that is subject to the whims of an HOA.
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:10 PM   #202
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by Rock knocker View Post
Those suits occur after the sale has become finalized, after the true condition of the property becomes clear. None of that is applicable here.

I've stated that he does appear to have some possible damages, although minor. No court in the world would entertain his work on his own house as damages.

And the more he entertains this new house, the less he is damaged specifically because of the disclosure we are discussing. As time goes on, and the sale is further discussed, the HOA issue goes from being a flat out disqualifying issue to one akin to the bathroom color. And it takes potential for damages with it.
It is ABSOLUTELY applicable. Misrepresentation suits for material issues are processed after the closing. This is completely different. The seller intentionally falsified a legal document that he knew would lead to misrepresenting the property on a public advertisement BEFORE the closing or the deposit happened. That is premeditated FRAUD.

I already agreed the OP is not likely to collect anything on monies he spent on his own property and I don't disagree that if the OP decides to buy, the issue becomes moot.

My point is there does not have to be material or monetary damages to prosecute in this case.

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Old 07-16-2017, 07:19 PM   #203
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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My point is there does not have to be material or monetary damages to prosecute in this case.
The OP doesn't prosecute anything, the state does.

You started this discussion about the OP suing, which is a vastly different thing from the county or state taking criminal action, or a state realtor licensing board leveling a fine, all actions that the OP, or anyone in civil court can not do.
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:22 PM   #204
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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The OP doesn't prosecute anything, the state does.

You started this discussion about the OP suing, which is a vastly different thing from the county or state taking criminal action, or a state realtor licensing board leveling a fine, all actions that the OP, or anyone in civil court can not do.
You're right. Wrong word choice. My mistake. Sorry. The seller can still sue for what I mentioned in my last post if he is so inclined.

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Old 07-16-2017, 09:25 PM   #205
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by Lazurus View Post
I did it. I won. I moved up the ranks.
I got rid of stupid rules.
So I'm saying you can win and make a difference.
Don't whine. Get involved.
I didn't whine, I got the heck out as fast as I could, and have been warning others to stay away from HOAs ever since. I'd hate to buy a place where my happiness depends on me getting elected to a board position.

I just realized that the people in this thread who like HOAs are HOA board members.

Chris

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Old 07-16-2017, 09:29 PM   #206
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by Shadowdog500 View Post
I didn't whine, I got the heck out as fast as I could, and have been warning others to stay away from HOAs ever since. I'd hate to buy a place where my happiness depends on me getting elected to a board position.

I just realized that the only people in this thread who like HOAs are HOA board members.

Chris


I dont mind hoas and i was not on a board. I like the fact that they restrict my neighbor from painting their house some ugly ass color or having a bunch of junk cars that don't run in the driveway covered with a blue tarp

That being said I have worked for some associations as a contractor and will say that yes some of them are a real pain in the azz with board members that have nothing to do but shove their head up everybody's azz


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Old 07-16-2017, 09:56 PM   #207
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by Shadowdog500 View Post

I just realized that the people in this thread who like HOAs are HOA board members.

Chris
I'm a president of one and I can't stand them .
But at the time it was 5 minutes from work.
Now it's a rental and it help to keep tenants inline
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:57 PM   #208
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

No way! If your contracts have nothing in them about HOA, or if you mentioned to the realtor that you wanted no HOA/POA then you're good to walk away if you want to, if you can.

I've lived in a neighborhood with a HOA. Bunch of communists. Nice to talk to once in a while but they'll stab you in the back in one way or another, if you plan on doing anything that might even come close to going against the HOA rules. Prime example is my girlfriend's sister. She lives in a town about 50 miles from me. I live out in a countryfied neighborhood, and love it. Anyway, she calls me up and says her mower won't cut level. I wasn't doing anything so I loaded up some tools, my trailer, and headed over there. I get there and the mower's in the garage, door's down, car's parked outside. This was odd; I'd have expected to see the mower outside and the car in the garage. Anyway I knocked on the door and she led me to the garage, which was hotter than Africa in there, so I opened the door and rolled the mower outside to look at it. As I climbed down under to look, she came out and said don't work on it here. You'll have to haul it back to your shop and work on it; then bring it back. What? Turns out, the HOA, more specifically the city code, states that you cannot work on any equipment out in the open. Also says that lawn equipment is to be kept inside and out of sight; which explains why it was in the garage and the car was outside. So I questioned her on the HOA stuff and city code. YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING! Get up, don't turn too many lights on, go to work, come home, go in the house and sit there watching TV. Can't do basketball in a driveway, can't throw a game of catch in the yard, nothing. SO I got to haul the mower all the way home, 51 miles, leveled the mowing deck, and took it back to her. I didn't charge her anything but if it were a paying customer, it'd been about $150, with over $100 of it in transportation alone.

HOA's are absolutely ridiculous in a way; but I understand why they do it. I lived in a town similar to her's, in that the grass couldn't be over 4" tall, couldn't have more than 2 cars parked outside, and if they were, they had to have current tags on them, couldn't park lawn equipment out in the open, etc. But the funny thing was (at least there anyway) was that the neighbors-who were there in the 1970's, long before anyone else built-NEVER mowed their grass, never trimmed the trees, had kids toys, ATV's, several broken down cars, all of it-and code enforcement never said anything to them. Oh but wait, there's more. I bought a 24' enclosed trailer to haul and store the race car in, and had it parked at the house. At the time I didn't have license tags on it yet; as I was waiting for the title. Code enforcement shows up and writes me a warning for grass being 4.5" tall and having a vehicle in the yard without tags.

I moved. I lost high speed internet (now DSL only; and it's kinda expensive), electric costs more, gas costs more, but taxes are LOWER, and no codes and POA/HOA garbage. If I want to go out and pee off the back porch at midnight in my underwear, I do-and if anyone says anything, they can quickly get told to mind their own business I do have restrictions but they're obvious and they're common sense. No trailer houses, no major business (says quiet business is fine), minimum square footage 1200, min lot size 1 acre, etc. Just keeps the riffraff out is all. My friend said that I'm going to be a hillbilly now and it'll take forever to get to work, and if I had kids, get them to school. But oddly, I'm not 2 miles from School and everything I need is within 3 miles; well, excluding all the race car shops. Oh wait, there's one 4.5 miles the other way. And a salvage yard behind it. I just bought a 50cc scooter to run around on, and love it this time of year, except it only goes 50 mph. I'm a gearhead, so that'll change sooner or later
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Old 07-16-2017, 10:28 PM   #209
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Turns out, the HOA, more specifically the city code, states that you cannot work on any equipment out in the open....... So I questioned her on the HOA stuff and city code. YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING!
Three points here
1) Is it city code or the CC&R's? Or is it HOA rules? One has the force of law, one is the rules that govern the HOA and is attached to title. The last is just what the BOD makes up, and depending on the BOD and the CC&Rs, these rules drafted by the Board can just as often as not be against the CC&Rs.

2) Just cause your GF's sister says it does not make it so.

3) Is your GF cool with you banging her sister? Is she hot?
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:47 PM   #210
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

my closest neighbor is 400' away. the guy across the street has been building his dream shop for 18 months now and its still not done - no one cares.

I have large bon fires in my back yard and can burn anything i want (i only burn wood, tho some people burn garbage) no one cares.

Its normal to hear gun shots of people firing weapons for target practice - no one cares.

welcome to the country
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:40 AM   #211
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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I didn't have that same experience, and will never live anywhere with an HOA again. I got a nasty letter from the HOA one year saying I was violating some obscure rule, and cited fines, legal fees, etc, so I read through the covenants and couldn't find any such restriction. It took half a dozen phone calls, and contentious e-mails before they said what I was doing was "discouraged" even though there was no mention of it in the covenants. I pointed out that at least half a dozen of my neighbors were doing the same thing, and had been for years.

Claiming that HOAs are normally reasonable is a joke. Yours might be now...but that can change and there's nothing you can do about it.
Again, I think you are taking your bad experience and making a blanket statement.

Remember, people only post about bad experiences...rarely about the good.

My family is from the midwest, and I agree...people want a lot to do with stuff they shouldn't mingle. Lot's of ignorance.

I'm on the East Coast, in a military-centric city. Our HoA had some really "utopian" (as a previous poster put it) ideals, and were pushed out in short time. A single person, or small groups idea of what they want...does not supersede that of the community...the community just has to speak up.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:03 AM   #212
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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A single person, or small groups idea of what they want...does not supersede that of the community....
Nor do they supercede the CC&Rs. Always make sure rules and the such conform to the governing documents.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:15 PM   #213
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

It's real simple- READ the CC&R's BEFORE you move into an HOA governed community.

If you are comfortable with the HOA rules and feel they'll protect your property investment from Cooter and Lulu's moldy blue-tarp covered double-wide and 90-lb mongrel dogs guarding their derelict 80's Camaro collection in the rusty chain-link fenced front yard you won't have any issues.

If you feel they're part of a vast fascist bourgeois Nazi neighborhood mind-control reprogramming conspiracy to turn you into a zombie drone , then by all means don't buy in that neighborhood.


As for wide-sweeping future changes to the CC&R's- this usually require a supermajority of the homeowners to change, making them very difficult or nearly impossible to implement.

AGAIN, READ the CC&R's, not all HOAs are the same. Some are very laid back, others are very restrictive. Talk to (more than one) neighbor about the HOA and Board and how they feel the community is being run. Blanket statements condemning all HOA's only shows ignorance of the subject.

While living in HOA communities I've been able to work on vehicles, weld, do woodworking, enjoy my motorhome, and perform all the remodeling and landscaping projects I wanted, just by exercising common consideration for my neighbors. I don't leave the cars in the driveway or on the street with the hoods up for weeks, I don't run the angle grinder in the driveway at midnight. I wash the motorhome on the street, load and unload it within a day and then take it to the storage lot. I've worked with the board on my construction projects, not against them. Presented properly, approvals have never been a problem. Sure, I wish I could store a utility trailer beside my garage, but I knew going in that I couldn't, so I'm not going to rail against my HOA on social media now because I can't...

I've lived in 5-different HOA communities since 2001- and was a Board member for 6 years in one neighborhood. It was a thankless job because a very, very small (and very vocal) minority of malcontents believed that being purposefully ignorant entitled them to waive the parts of the CC&R's they didn't like- and they were usually the first to cry foul when a neighbor did the same.

I've been asked to run for open BOD positions in the AZ and WA communities where we have homes but have declined; they seem to be fairly well managed without any major conflicts, so I'm OK with the status quo for now. If and when that changes, I'll step up again.

edit- just after posting this, I looked out the window and see that my across-the street neighbor has his trailer backed up to my next door neighbors garage, unloading a big 4-cyl Volvo outdrive. I 'll think I'll go help them (instead of calling the HOA and complaining...)

Last edited by PugetDude; 07-17-2017 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:51 PM   #214
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by PugetDude View Post
It's real simple- READ the CC&R's BEFORE you move into an HOA governed community.

If you are comfortable with the HOA rules and feel they'll protect your property investment from Cooter and Lulu's moldy blue-tarp covered double-wide and 90-lb mongrel dogs guarding their derelict 80's Camaro collection in the rusty chain-link fenced front yard you won't have any issues.

If you feel they're part of a vast fascist bourgeois Nazi neighborhood mind-control reprogramming conspiracy to turn you into a zombie drone , then by all means don't buy in that neighborhood.


As for wide-sweeping future changes to the CC&R's- this usually require a supermajority of the homeowners to change, making them very difficult or nearly impossible to implement.

AGAIN, READ the CC&R's, not all HOAs are the same. Some are very laid back, others are very restrictive. Talk to (more than one) neighbor about the HOA and Board and how they feel the community is being run. Blanket statements condemning all HOA's only shows ignorance of the subject.

While living in HOA communities I've been able to work on vehicles, weld, do woodworking, enjoy my motorhome, and perform all the remodeling and landscaping projects I wanted, just by exercising common consideration for my neighbors. I don't leave the cars in the driveway or on the street with the hoods up for weeks, I don't run the angle grinder in the driveway at midnight. I wash the motorhome on the street, load and unload it within a day and then take it to the storage lot. I've worked with the board on my construction projects, not against them. Presented properly, approvals have never been a problem. Sure, I wish I could store a utility trailer beside my garage, but I knew going in that I couldn't, so I'm not going to rail against my HOA on social media now because I can't...

I've lived in 5-different HOA communities since 2001- and was a Board member for 6 years in one neighborhood. It was a thankless job because a very, very small (and very vocal) minority of malcontents believed that being purposefully ignorant entitled them to waive the parts of the CC&R's they didn't like- and they were usually the first to cry foul when a neighbor did the same.

I've been asked to run for open BOD positions in the AZ and WA communities where we have homes but have declined; they seem to be fairly well managed without any major conflicts, so I'm OK with the status quo for now. If and when that changes, I'll step up again.

Good advice. TOTALLY agree with your assessment of the dynamics as well. Sane people need to step up, take on the thankless task to avoid idiots from ruining the HOA --or-- from making a misstep that costs the HOA dearly in litigation.





As I as reading posts in this thread, I thought "this is going nowhere- but if we could turn it into 'how to evaluate HOAs', that might be a worthwhile effort and might help others....\

So I will add:

1. Also ask for and read any Rules, Policies or Proecdures separte from the CC&Rs.

2. Put all requests for these documents in writing to the other part, or the realtors involved. You want them on the hook for failing to disclose. By putting this in wiring you are much more likely to get the full picture.

3. TALK TO NEIGHBORS. First, its just neighborly. Second you may find out stuff about the home that is important. Talk to a few. Doesnt need to be the first or second thing you ask- I am sure anyone can come up with 3,4 things that a buyer might want to know.

4. get a sense of what buildings, fences and landscaping exists. Not a single workshop? nothing over 8ft wall height? Nobody has a garden? You just want to compare YOUR view of what YOU think you want to do, with what already exists. If you are thinking of a 4500 sq ft shop with 12ft side walls and a 8/10 pich roof- and the entire project is attached garages...well... proceed with care. (you could arguably have the sale predicated on HOA approval of a planned structure....maybe not in todays markets, but legally this could be done)

5. When you read CC&Rs, do it with the mindset of "how can these be used to restrict me" and not "It doesn't say anything about how high a garage can be". Like reading a car extended warranty, or really any legal document. Be careful- MOST people simply dont appreciate the power even an innocuous line in a CCR can give the HOA. And in fact this is why you need to also get a sense of how sane the HOA is, by talking to others.

All I got for now
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:23 PM   #215
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

HOA? No thanks. Realtor screwed up. Contact an attorney in this. Look elsewhere and get back every cent you put into this.

I next block over is an HOA where I live. They try to say what you can and can not do in your own yard. Tough. I was here before them. I have hogs, I mill my own lumber. They get ticked off because the large pond is fully on my property and will not allow them any use of it, ever.
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Old 07-17-2017, 02:28 PM   #216
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by prostreetamx View Post
You can't even buy a new home in Las Vegas anymore in any sort of housing tract that does not have some form of governing body. I got tired of the dirt front yards and my neighbors parking in their front yards.
We bought 10 years ago in LV proper. You couldn't get a new home in a development back then that didn't have an HOA and CC&Rs. Some had some pretty steep SIDS and LIDS. We looked at most of the big builders, Pardee, KB, Richmond and others. Most were pretty restrictive particularly in Summerlin and down off Blue Diamond. No parking in the driveway, no parking out front, no garage doors open longer than need to drive in, any changes to landscape require approval. The KB CC&R was even more restrictive and limited the external add-ons to specific lots and not allowing any changes to the exterior and a limited selection of approved exterior colors limited by a maximum amount of any particular color on any block. One of the Summerlin tracts had a no power tools in the garage and to get approval when you have a contractor come to do work including inside the home. We looked at at least a dozen (probably a couple dozen) in all areas of town and all new developments were pretty restrictive. And usually $100-$300 a month plus SIDS and LIDS in some cases.

Most of the stipulations of the CC&Rs I've read have nothing to do with the value of the property but rather work to enforce an atmosphere of conformity. If you have a great house in great location me putting my trash out the day before or adding a vent to the garage isn't going to lower your property values. It's done to impose a way of life on the residents of the area.

At that point, no HOA. We got an early 80s build in a working class area well below market. In our case the values have increased pretty substantially. The kids that work for me and others at the "day gig" are still underwater. Those that still own homes anyway. The park on the lawn, appliances on the curb, boats or RVs outside are governed by the city within LV proper or county if you are in one of the townships. Parking and code enforcement are by here regularly. At one point they stopped by thinking I was running a chop shop because I was working on race cars. It did take them a few weeks to bust a renter on the next block that was running a body shop from his garage.

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Old 07-17-2017, 04:00 PM   #217
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by idriveahonda View Post
Again, I think you are taking your bad experience and making a blanket statement.

Remember, people only post about bad experiences...rarely about the good.

My family is from the midwest, and I agree...people want a lot to do with stuff they shouldn't mingle. Lot's of ignorance.

I'm on the East Coast, in a military-centric city. Our HoA had some really "utopian" (as a previous poster put it) ideals, and were pushed out in short time. A single person, or small groups idea of what they want...does not supersede that of the community...the community just has to speak up.
Again? There was a first?

I've had two houses in HOAs and they were both bad experiences. My wife lived in a couple of places with HOAs before we met, and had bad experiences. My parents owned a vacation property in a development with an HOA and had a really bad experience.

I'm sure there are some reasonable HOAs out there, but the fact is they can change at any time and go from being reasonable to unreasonable very quickly. It's also not likely you'll be able to find out much about the true nature of an HOA before living there.

I have heard this argument for decades at work, and the number of people saying their HOA is a good thing is minuscule. The number of folks complaining about their HOA is significant...most folks that live in an HOA complain about them. I don't recall anybody saying "that's too bad your HOA is terrible, my HOA is awesome"....and these are people who won't exactly bite their tongue if they disagree with you.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:47 PM   #218
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by PugetDude View Post
It's real simple- READ the CC&R's BEFORE you move into an HOA governed community.

If you are comfortable with the HOA rules and feel they'll protect your property investment from Cooter and Lulu's moldy blue-tarp covered double-wide and 90-lb mongrel dogs guarding their derelict 80's Camaro collection in the rusty chain-link fenced front yard you won't have any issues.

If you feel they're part of a vast fascist bourgeois Nazi neighborhood mind-control reprogramming conspiracy to turn you into a zombie drone , then by all means don't buy in that neighborhood.
[/I]
Well said, all around. I think I'm currently an owner in my 7th HOA (SC x 3, VAx1, FLx1, NC x 2). The ONLY way I would live in a non-HOA community would be if I could live far enough in the country, and own enough land that my neighbors couldn't influence my property values. Who wants to take the risk to spend $500k on a house, and see it drop in value by $100k+ if your neighbor trashes their property.

I've lived in what I considered too strict HOAs (the measuring your grass gated country club type) but in general, I've never had a problem with them. I've done multiple car restorations, drug home non-working junk cars that I wanted the drive-trains out of etc. No, I don't leave junk cars in the drive-way up on blocks, I'm respectful to not run an impact wrench at 10 PM, tested my Formula Ford (did at least hack on a muffler) during daytime hours, etc. Never had a single person complain about it. Currently own in a smaller subdivision with just 45 houses on about 3/4 acre lots. Neighbors are pretty relaxed. Not uncommon to see someone driving their kids on an ATV to a neighbors house (at a respectful speed and hour), or see small utility trailers in the far back of a lot. My small tire trailer is parked way back by the woods not next to the garage.

I have been in subdivisions that have had problems with owners. Never has it been as one sided, as these "horror stories" every one has heard about. There is typically a long and painful history with a resident before it gets to the ugly point.

But God Bless America, if you want to own property in non-HOA, have at it. If you want to live in an HOA, plenty of those options as well :-)
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:46 PM   #219
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

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Originally Posted by prostreetamx
You can't even buy a new home in Las Vegas anymore in any sort of housing tract that does not have some form of governing body. I got tired of the dirt front yards and my neighbors parking in their front yards.
Big deal, in Vegas you could buy the entire neighborhood and be your own HOA. Heck, you could afford to move that "Flipping Vegas" guys "wife" into the house next door. He's too busy looking at properties with "the twins" to even attempt to take care of his manly duties.
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:54 PM   #220
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Default Re: Closing on a house with no HOA...wait there is an HOA....

I will never deal with an HOA ever again. After I'd dealt with one, I went out of my way to change some laws in Minnesota. Surprisingly, I had opponents in the senate. The law didn't go the way I quite wanted but I was surprised that some dickheads were out there to ruin the quality of peoples lives. It's about time for the feds to step in because these HOA's have more pull than state government when it comes to YOUR HOME.
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