24x24 and 20x29 in Eastern Ontario

pontifex4 · Jul 4, 2011

Even though I've been lurking here for some time, I'm only now finally starting a build thread for the project my father and I took on last fall: A 24x24x9' wood shop for him and a 20x29x12' car shop for me at our family farm in Eastern Ontario, Canada. We have designed and built everything, with frequent help from a few good friends. We are certainly not builders, but we're proud of what we've accomplished!

I'm really excited to get some Garage Journal feedback on the project, as I have really come to respect the members here in the time I've spent reading through similar threads.

As you'll see, we're a lot farther ahead on the wood shop, which is proving to be an excellent (if cluttered) building for my father's retirement hobby of losing and rediscovering tools. He now actually spends most of his time as a fine cabinet maker. At age 30, I'm finally learning how to work on cars, which is the motivation behind my shop design.

We had originally intended to build one, larger structure to house both his wood working tools and my car stuff, but it didn't seem as neat a solution as two buildings.

The specifics:

Wood Shop

24x24' with a 9' ceiling
8/12 roof (trusses)
Fully insulated, wrapped and heated with a wood stove

Metal Shop

20x29' with a 12' 4" ceiling
5/12 roof (trusses)
4.5" thick 3600psi concrete pad with mesh and rebar, 7" thick in two places for a two post lift
Fully insulated, wrapped and heated (likely by propane, but we're not there yet)

I look forward to hearing what you think!

Nostraquedeo · Jul 4, 2011

Where are the pictures?

pontifex4 · Jul 4, 2011

To kick things off, here's the pad pour for the 24x24 wood shop. We did this in August of 2010. Not shown are the mesh, rebar or plastic under the pad.

Here it is after the pour (this was the first time we'd worked with concrete, and we were a little preoccupied to take pictures while the truck was there!)

Here is the wood shop with walls, some sheeting and a test fit window:

And from inside:

Here are the trusses in place (but not yet the ladders, which overhang the end truss and **** against one inside for extra support, rather than just nailing on to the end truss):

Here we are sheeting the roof. This building has an 8/12 pitch, and we were using what turned out to be unreasonably heavy OSB. We wound up lifting it up onto the roof with a tractor (watch for this, as it will become a familiar theme):

Here it is from the back side of the building, with all the OSB on:

Then, finally, shingled:

The wrap going on (pictured are my father and friend, Martin):

Soffits (we were learning as we went):

And a preliminary test fit on the wood stove and chimney (note the base, which is a patio stone and a steel truck wheel):

pontifex4 · Jul 5, 2011

Once the wood shop was weatherproof, we started on the pad for my building:

I wised up after the first concrete job and found ways to sit down while wiring up the metal:

Pouring concrete is exhausting. I'm glad I don't do it for a living.

This photo was followed by a few hours of power trowel operation -- until it was too dark to see. The floor is nice and smooth, and fairly level except for a couple of small low spots where I guess we didn't screed as well as we could have before floating.

It then poured rain or snowed for two full weeks, which is just as well, as it gave the concrete plenty of water. I drove my track car up on the pad after a couple of weeks, just to be the first:

pontifex4 · Jul 5, 2011

...And then things sat like that for the winter. I occasionally would roll one of my cars into the wood shop to do something, but no building got done, which was sort of the plan. The pad sat under a foot of snow all winter. I had a fairly busy spring, as well, so we didn't get back to building my shop until early June.

Here are the walls starting to go up:

Note the use of the tractor to lift and position the walls. My father discovered that if he drilled a hole in two studs and hung logging chains from the bucket of the tractor, he could balance the panels easily and position them to within an inch or so over the bolts that we set in the concrete during the pour.

This brings us to this past weekend (Canada Day weekend) when we took delivery of the trusses, and got to work:

My girlfriend inspected our work, and approved. She wanted to pose with the hard hat, but had actually spent the day gardening (hence the gardening gloves and rubber boots):

OSB going on the roof (this time, we used 7/16" sheets with clips, instead of the outrageously heavy tongue and groove stuff we used on the wood shop):

(Importantly, that tractor does fit in the doorway -- it's not what the building was designed for, but all of my air and impact tools will be housed in this building, so it makes sense to be able to back all the tractors in to work on them).

And here is where we are now:

This is roughly where a car will be positioned on the lift:

82_454_shorty · Jul 5, 2011

Welcome to the site! Keep the pictures coming as things progress.

Where abouts in Eastern Ontario are you?

Chris Stapley · Jul 5, 2011

Makings of a really nice shop there! Can't wait to see the end product!

pontifex4 · Jul 5, 2011

And now for some questions:

1.) We're soon going to have to position the lights and outlets. I'm thinking of three hanging fluorescent tube fixtures in a horseshoe pattern around the front of the car pictured (to avoid casting a shadow when I open the hood or raise the car up high on the lift) and then standard compact fluorescent bulbs on the rest of the ceiling.

2.) I'll need 220v on the ceiling for the lift, by the overhead door for my air compressor and an additional outlet near the door for my welder, plus one near the lift for on-car welding tasks. Should I put 220v outlets anywhere else?

3.) Am I likely to benefit from 220v fluorescent tube fixtures?

4.) Should I be considering a vent fan at ceiling height? The windows will be open for three seasons, but I'll get one if there's a big advantage to it.

5.) My plan is to heat the building minimally, using some type of exterior vented propane heat. I have a strong preference to something that I can hang from the ceiling -- either forced air or infrared tube. This building is not a living room, and I will be happy to wear a jacket in there in the winter. I'm really only concerned with keeping it just above freezing on average, with an occasional weekend bump up to 15C/59F. The building will be very well insulated and sealed on all six sides with vapour barrier, so I'm not expecting much moisture.

pontifex4 · Jul 5, 2011

82_454_shorty said:
Welcome to the site! Keep the pictures coming as things progress.

Where abouts in Eastern Ontario are you?

Chris Stapley said:
Makings of a really nice shop there! Can't wait to see the end product!

Thanks, guys!

The building is in Portland, though I'm in Kingston.

I still can't get over how tall 12+' walls seem, compared to what I'm used to! By the way, if any of you locals have advice on buying a lift, I'm all ears!

pontifex4 · Jul 6, 2011

We passed our framing inspection easily today!

Unfortunately, we got rained out while trying to nail the fascia on to the roof edges, but there will be time for that later.

Just a bump for these questions:

pontifex4 said:
1.) We're soon going to have to position the lights and outlets. I'm thinking of three hanging fluorescent tube fixtures in a horseshoe pattern around the front of the car pictured (to avoid casting a shadow when I open the hood or raise the car up high on the lift) and then standard compact fluorescent bulbs on the rest of the ceiling.

2.) I'll need 220v on the ceiling for the lift, by the overhead door for my air compressor and an additional outlet near the door for my welder, plus one near the lift for on-car welding tasks. Should I put 220v outlets anywhere else?

3.) Am I likely to benefit from 220v fluorescent tube fixtures?

4.) Should I be considering a vent fan at ceiling height? The windows will be open for three seasons, but I'll get one if there's a big advantage to it.

5.) My plan is to heat the building minimally, using some type of exterior vented propane heat. I have a strong preference to something that I can hang from the ceiling -- either forced air or infrared tube. This building is not a living room, and I will be happy to wear a jacket in there in the winter. I'm really only concerned with keeping it just above freezing on average, with an occasional weekend bump up to 15C/59F. The building will be very well insulated and sealed on all six sides with vapour barrier, so I'm not expecting much moisture.

deziac · Jul 8, 2011

Nice build so far, looking forward to watching your updates through your build process. Very clean 944 you got there, any chance you were up at Mosport for the Porsche car club event back in June?

BTW, I actually moved to Kingston over a year ago... :thumbup:

sscustom · Jul 8, 2011

looks sweet great progress

bluesman2a · Jul 8, 2011

pontifex4 said:
And now for some questions:

1.) We're soon going to have to position the lights and outlets. I'm thinking of three hanging fluorescent tube fixtures in a horseshoe pattern around the front of the car pictured (to avoid casting a shadow when I open the hood or raise the car up high on the lift) and then standard compact fluorescent bulbs on the rest of the ceiling.

2.) I'll need 220v on the ceiling for the lift, by the overhead door for my air compressor and an additional outlet near the door for my welder, plus one near the lift for on-car welding tasks. Should I put 220v outlets anywhere else?

3.) Am I likely to benefit from 220v fluorescent tube fixtures?

4.) Should I be considering a vent fan at ceiling height? The windows will be open for three seasons, but I'll get one if there's a big advantage to it.

5.) My plan is to heat the building minimally, using some type of exterior vented propane heat. I have a strong preference to something that I can hang from the ceiling -- either forced air or infrared tube. This building is not a living room, and I will be happy to wear a jacket in there in the winter. I'm really only concerned with keeping it just above freezing on average, with an occasional weekend bump up to 15C/59F. The building will be very well insulated and sealed on all six sides with vapour barrier, so I'm not expecting much moisture.

1. Remember, it's CHEAP now to plan for overkill. If you look at my build thread, one of my shop bays is 25X25 and I have the following: 2 rows of T8 4' fixtures that go from wall to wall. spaced evenly between the open garage door edge and the front wall. 3 more 4' T8 fixtures on the front wall facing the vehicles, high enough to be out of the way, and low enough to get light UNDER the hood when open. Finally, I mounted 2 fixtures on either side of the open garage door, parallel to the tracks, so when the door is open, there's still light. Lastly, I put a box ABOVE the open garage door where I could add more fixtures for working in the winter when the door is down. All in all, I have 12 T8 4' fixtures on the ceiling and 3 up high on the front wall.

2. Yes, you should. Again, it's cheap now. Personally, I overkilled here again. in my double bay, I have one in the front on the left/right returns from the door, and in each back corner this means I can realistically use my welder pretty much anywhere in the shop without tripping over extension cords.

3. Not really. The going rate for T8 4' fluorescent fixtures is about $20-25. Go with what is cheap and easy to replace. Spend a bit more on some good bulbs in a color temp/setting that pleases you.

4. One of the best things I ever did was to put a REAR garage door on my shop. I don't drive through it often but it does wonders for cross ventilation. Evaluate how your shop "breathes", if you don't have a good natural cross-vent with the windows, consider adding the fan, or possibly some ceiling fans away from the lift.

5. I got nothing for you on this one, we have fairly mild winters here. Sorry.

pontifex4 · Jul 8, 2011

deziac said:
Nice build so far, looking forward to watching your updates through your build process. Very clean 944 you got there, any chance you were up at Mosport for the Porsche car club event back in June?

BTW, I actually moved to Kingston over a year ago...

Thanks! Yes, I was at the Mosport PCA event in June, but I'm taking a break from them now until I have the garage sealed up. Kingston's a great place. What are you doing here?

sscustom said:
looks sweet great progress

Thank you! We're shingling this weekend, so with luck, it will look even more like a building.

bluesman2a said:
1. Remember, it's CHEAP now to plan for overkill. If you look at my build thread, one of my shop bays is 25X25 and I have the following: 2 rows of T8 4' fixtures that go from wall to wall. spaced evenly between the open garage door edge and the front wall. 3 more 4' T8 fixtures on the front wall facing the vehicles, high enough to be out of the way, and low enough to get light UNDER the hood when open.

I love the wall mounted lights idea, and thanks for the other responses, too. I looked closely at your thread a while ago when we were still in the planning stages. It motivated me to start stockpiling hose reels, too!

deziac · Jul 9, 2011

pontifex4 said:
Thanks! Yes, I was at the Mosport PCA event in June, but I'm taking a break from them now until I have the garage sealed up. Kingston's a great place. What are you doing here?

I moved back to Kingston to help out w/ the family. Give me a shout some time, I'd like to take a look at your 944. I'd be nice to know some local folks who be down w/ older euro cars.

pontifex4 · Jul 9, 2011

We got half the roof shingled, today! That's obviously not as quick as a roofing crew, but we definitely didn't waste any time. With luck, we'll have the whole roof complete tomorrow. Pictures, then!

deziac said:
I moved back to Kingston to help out w/ the family. Give me a shout some time, I'd like to take a look at your 944. I'd be nice to know some local folks who be down w/ older euro cars.

Cool. Will do!

pontifex4 · Jul 11, 2011

We're definitely making the most of our weekends! Last weekend, we got the trusses and sheathing up, and this weekend we got everything shingled. It was hot and sunny, and the first half of the roof was already pretty well bonded together by the time we finished the second.

I'm particularly proud of the line we were able to get on the roof shown in this view:

The gaps at the ends of the wood fascia will need to be filled before the aluminum goes over them, and we'll probably try to tackle the remaining sheathing on the walls and get started wrapping next weekend.

It's going to be really good to have the building waterproof, as I have a lot of body panels and parts stored in a barn which is about to collapse!

bluesman2a · Jul 11, 2011

pontifex4 said:
It's going to be really good to have the building waterproof, as I have a lot of body panels and parts stored in a barn which is about to collapse!

I know this is going to kill you, but do NOT move anything in until you are done working IN the space (i.e. electrical, wiring, lighting, insulation, painting, epoxy floor, etc). Regardless of what you move in or where you put it, the stuff WILL be in the way and slow down your work. Better to plow through the work than try to move stuff around multiple times.

And remember, this comes from a guy who has 90% of the **** in his shop on casters so it's mobile, but it's still a PITA.

pontifex4 · Jul 11, 2011

bluesman2a said:
I know this is going to kill you, but do NOT move anything in until you are done working IN the space (i.e. electrical, wiring, lighting, insulation, painting, epoxy floor, etc). Regardless of what you move in or where you put it, the stuff WILL be in the way and slow down your work. Better to plow through the work than try to move stuff around multiple times.

And remember, this comes from a guy who has 90% of the **** in his shop on casters so it's mobile, but it's still a PITA.

That sounds exactly right. I was thinking of putting the panels on a trailer and just backing them in there when we're not working on the building, and pulling them out when we are. I'm only able to work on this project on the weekends, so the barn will probably have collapsed before I am truly ready to move things in!

pontifex4 · Jul 18, 2011

Well, that was a hot weekend! We cut out the window openings, figured out how much to space the windows out from the wall for the siding, got some of the wrap on and put the windows in.

My poor car was sitting on a spare wheel because I picked a roofing nail up in one of my rear tires.

Now I have some more questions:

1.) We've wrapped (Typar) up to the 12' point on the outside -- do we need to go all the way up the gables if the area above the ceiling is unused (i.e., unheated, uninsulated and not attic)?
2.) There is a 2" gap between the top of the OSB and the top of the framing on both exterior side walls. Should this be filled in with 3" strips of OSB, or will the soffits do the same job? It seems kind of incomplete to me, but if closing the insulation into the framing on the outside isn't necessary, I won't do anything about it.

pontifex4 · Jul 25, 2011

We made a little more progress this weekend, in spite of the heat.

We have soffits installed along the bottom edges of the roof:

And after emptying a can of spray foam around the windows and on a couple of framing gaps, we test fit a wood stove:

The stove is going to be a big compromise in terms of space (I'll move my compressor to the other end of the wall, beside the bench, and it will make it more difficult to fit a second car in the building if I need to) but I do really like wood stoves, and the fuel is a byproduct of lots of other things we do on the farm.

Can anyone recommend a good clearance reduction material for the area behind it on the wall? I had thought that brushed stainless with the required 1" airspace over the sheetrock would look good, but I'm open to other (perhaps cheaper!) suggestions.

Finally, I'm trying out some new wheels, in advance of a colour change for my track car in the spring:

pontifex4 · Aug 2, 2011

Electrical weekend. Our electrician friend put up a mast and panel to run power into the metal shop from a nearby pole on the property, so I spent the long weekend running wires.

My only innovation in the process was this use of a pipe clamp and the rolling scaffold to hold the wire:

I had gone around with a couple of dozen wall outlet-sized strips of torn up newspaper and a hammer stapler to place all the outlets and boxes. This let me imagine a little more easily what a particular outlet would be like to use.

After that, it was pretty easy to use the newspaper scraps as targets for where I needed to run wire, particularly on the ceiling.

Here are a couple of ceiling boxes, each with a square of plastic vapour barrier behind them for a better seal:

We used this technique with the vapour barrier in the wood shop, too, and the outlets are all nicely sealed from drafts.

Here are a couple of post rough-in shots. The fan pictured in the second one was a lifesaver this weekend:

787B · Aug 2, 2011

Subscribed. Nice work!

pontifex4 · Aug 2, 2011

787B said:
Subscribed. Nice work!

Thanks! I'm no electrician, but I think I puzzled out how to make the most of my wire. My father's friend (who is an electrician, and who installed the mast and panel for me) pointed out that by running the wires vertically in the middle of the gap between studs, I make it harder to put insulation in than if I'd run them down tight to a stud. That seems obvious now, but it didn't occur to me at the time. I may move them over.

I'm shopping for lights, now, and the best deal in T8 fixtures seems to be the 8' Lithonia strip lights made up of a total of four 4' tubes. I've seen a few buildings on here with these -- does anyone know where on the back they actually meet the box (i.e. where does the wire go in)? I placed the boxes on the ceiling assuming that anything from the middle to 8" from the end of the fixture would be acceptable, but I may have to move some a little to get the pattern I want if this turns out not to be true. Or just get different lights.

dave67fd · Aug 3, 2011

Charlie,
These are what i used. The electrical connection enters/exits on the ends, typical for most strips. I just mounted duplex outlets in the ceiling and installed short cords thru gland fittings with plugs on them so i could remove them easily if i needed or wanted to.

http://www.contractorlighting.com/8ft-lamp-watt-fluorescent-double-channel-strip-120277-p-176.html

Also, if still interested look into the Mr. Heater 45k or 75k btu garage heaters. Propane or NG.
I also considered a wood stove but there are times when im only going to be out in the shop for an hour or two and don't think stoking the stove and waisting several hours when not needed.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200316365_200316365

pontifex4 · Aug 6, 2011

dave67fd said:
Charlie,
These are what i used. The electrical connection enters/exits on the ends, typical for most strips. I just mounted duplex outlets in the ceiling and installed short cords thru gland fittings with plugs on them so i could remove them easily if i needed or wanted to.

Thanks, Dave! I had my first initiation to fluorescent strip lighting this week. I found a guy locally who was selling a lot of lights that had been removed from a drug store. I use "a lot" in the most literal sense, as they were all for sale as a group, and he wanted them off the floor of his shop.

I had been planning to buy seven 8' T8 double strips from Home Depot, but as a result of this (for a considerable discount over those seven) I ended up with 72! :shocking:

They also came with bulbs. 95% of the fixtures were in good shape, apart from some slight surface rust on the edges of the reflectors that you can faintly see above. The reflectors are unbelievably heavy: there's no way I could lift the larger of the two stacks of them you see there in the trailer. I had no idea they would be so heavy!

Here are the last third of them in the back of the truck. Lower down in the pile, a few of the housings were bent, but we discovered that they're pretty easy to straighten.

Anyway, as there's clearly no way for us to use all of these right now (I calculated that I literally couldn't fit them all on the ceiling of my garage!) we picked out the 20 that needed the least work, and disassembled the rest to make storing them easier.

A couple of them found their way into the wood shop:

The light from them is fantastic. No shadows! I can't wait to get them installed in the new building.

787B · Aug 8, 2011

Great score on those lights! You can never have enough light and those look like they will be perfect for the shop. If you were closer I'd buy a couple from you! Have you thought about upgrading the ballasts to electronic? They look like they are magnetic.

pontifex4 · Aug 14, 2011

Progress has been slow, and I'm gearing up to go to Europe for a few weeks tomorrow, but we did get the rest of the J-trim installed for the soffits, as well as the ends where the soffits on the gables will meet the lower soffits.

I also reworked a little bit of the wiring (including my compressor switch wiring, as my electrician suggested that it not share the box with 110v switches) and sold some of the lights to a nice local couple.

Also, the siding (clap board) is almost ready for the wood shop. My father is going to work on this while I'm away, and we'll do vertical board and batten for the metal shop when I get back.

pontifex4 · Aug 14, 2011

787B said:
Great score on those lights! You can never have enough light and those look like they will be perfect for the shop. If you were closer I'd buy a couple from you! Have you thought about upgrading the ballasts to electronic? They look like they are magnetic.

I finally had a close look at the ballasts, and they're all electronic. Some are larger than others, though. I take it that the smaller ballasts are newer?

In any case, they're totally silent and light up instantly, which I'm very pleased with. I'll just have to get the sheet rock in so I can put them up!

pontifex4 · Oct 12, 2011

I guess it's time for an update, though I don't have much to share because I was away most of the summer and early fall.

As of this past weekend, I have the metal shop's soffits finished (though fascia still needs to go on the ends of the roof):

The wood shop's DIY pine clapboard siding is complete and stained:

After that, it was lift time!

And here I am drilling holes in the concrete:

We were able to borrow an SDS drill, which made this quite easy:

And here's the frame bolted up:

We didn't assemble the cables or hydraulics in the columns before standing them up because we were mainly doing this to get them off their backs on the floor so that we could insulate and put up sheet rock. That's coming soon!

Also, the lift is a FORWARD DP10AN (direct pull 10,000 lb asymmetrical, narrow) and positioning it as we did allows me to move comfortably by it on the left side, without it taking up a lot of room on the right side, where there will be a bench and shelves, etc.

pontifex4 · Oct 13, 2011

My father sent me this photo tonight of a prototype that he's working on for the garage door (which will be stained with an opaque stain, so no worry about the difference in wood tones). Hemlock frames and black walnut panels.

pontifex4 · Nov 5, 2011

Update time! Insulation is in, vapour barrier is on and taped:

And we got the drywall on the ceiling:

And while packing up for the night:

hockey88fan · Nov 6, 2011

Looking great!

pontifex4 · Nov 6, 2011

hockey88fan said:
Looking great!

Thank you!

We put sheet rock on two more walls, today. It's not perfect, but it should do. Oh, and we got a new window to go by beside the garage door.

pontifex4 · Nov 19, 2011

Small update: We have the door standing up. My father made it in the style of the wood shop's door. Let me know what you think!

For the moment, it's held with temporary blocks on the back, but we'll start putting the hinges on tomorrow. In part, I suspect that this project was an excuse for my father to buy more shaper cutters.

Finally, we finished the drywall:

rsa · Nov 19, 2011

Lookin' good! Man, those 12 foot walls are t-a-l-l. Your OSB choice makes it easy for us in the peanut gallery to estimate dimensions accurately.

Your build would look like a skyscraper next to my one-story hip roofed home. I'm tempted to quit trying to plan something complimentary to the home and just go for something like yours that's unambiguously not a frou-frou residential garage.

Thanks for taking the time to update us, Charley!

pontifex4 · Nov 21, 2011

rsa said:
Your build would look like a skyscraper next to my one-story hip roofed home. I'm tempted to quit trying to plan something complimentary to the home and just go for something like yours that's unambiguously not a frou-frou residential garage.

It's certainly taller than I had expected (the wall height inside is about 12'3") but a lower roof pitch (5/12) kept the overall height roughly the same as the wood shop (which has a 9' wall height and 8/12 roof).

As to your design, a steeper roof and clever truss or rafter design could mean that you can get away with less wall height and still have the clearance you need inside for a lift if it's in the middle of the building. In my case, I have way more height than I need, except in the area between the lift columns. A clear floor two-post lift doesn't make very good use of space, either. You might find that a different lift design lets you have what you want without a big design compromise!

Anyway, thanks for looking.

Mike951 · Nov 21, 2011

Nice 951 - I've got an '86

pontifex4 · Nov 21, 2011

Mike951 said:
Nice 951 - I've got an '86

Thanks -- I'm planning to make it a lot nicer this winter!

rsa · Nov 21, 2011

pontifex4 said:
As to your design, a steeper roof and clever truss or rafter design could mean that you can get away with less wall height and still have the clearance you need inside for a lift if it's in the middle of the building.

I hope I've settled on a 20' x 28' gable. I've got a good handle on my roof and walls options, but a 14' wide door and parking slightly off-center is slowing me down.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Stewart

24x24 and 20x29 in Eastern Ontario

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