Master Bath Remodel -- Feedback/Ideas

VWandDodge · Jul 8, 2011

I recently read some stats regarding hotel remodels where the major chains are removing the bathtub and only building a shower. I came to a conclusion that more often than not, most people use a shower more often than a tub for many reasons (efficiency being one), not to mention modern tubs are very shallow. I also find tubs to be a hazard due to the slope of the base as well as the curve to the sides and have almost tripped inside of my own surround. Older people would be prone to having difficulty entering/exiting a surround. Since my master bathroom is gutted for remodeling I was considering changing it so it has just a shower. The hall bathroom, which mirrors this bathroom and shares a common wall, would still have the bath tub. My plan is to put the house on the market within the next three years and I felt a buyer may feel as I do in preferring a full shower in the master bathroom.

I've been toying with Google SketchUp by making drawings of my existing master bathroom design and a proposed design where I am thinking of replacing the tub with a complete shower enclosure. It's crude, but I think you'll get the idea. The "wall" that separates the commode from the proposed shower enclosure is 4" thick in the design detail, although I probably don't have to make it that thick. I could probably push it outward a bit more to allow for greater width in the shower. Not included in either drawing is the cabinet above the commode that would have to be removed for the shower wall to be built. I don't know why the idiots who built this place did what they did, because it would make more sense for the tub drains to be on the other side of the existing location. The door to the bathroom is opposite the vanity, close to the wall. I had a difficult time trying to draw it and then gave up.

My initial plan is to build half of the wall using translucent blocks, using a curtain to cover the doorway to the shower. The back wall would have a "chair" built up from the floor and some narrow shelves along the wall. Unfortunately, due to the design of the bathroom, I cannot fit a shower and a small closet or group of shelves for storage next to it.

Here is the existing layout:

These are my initial sketches:

Frank The Plumber · Jul 8, 2011

Let's first look at the minimal dimensions that a bathing room feels comfortable with.

Dimensionally the absolute minimum for a sink is 30", much less is not practically comfortable, anything more adds to the comfort up until about 48" at which point it looks and feels wasteful to go larger.

The toilet will enjoy a dimension of 36" of equally divided space, depending upon your body size and or shape you may be able to reduce this dimension to 30" divided equally. This would be unincumbered space, space with no holders hangers or accoutrements within it's confines.

The interior of any shower space is generally a space of 30" internally by 30 ", this is quite a small space and often less than enjoyable for a pleasant shower experience. While in many cases it may not be practical to widen the area of the shower it is often very possible to add length. This length contributes to a feeling of space front and rear of the person using the device. 48" is comfortable at minimum, with a 30" width.

One way to determine adequate shower size space for you as an individual bather within the shower space is to hold your arms up against your body and touch each shoulder top. Measure from elbow to elbow and add 2", This space gives you a good reasoning of where within the space your body will center, it will give you a good idea of how comfortable your body will be within the space and determine roughly how likely your body will be to interact with the surfaces comprising the shower interior.

As far as door space is considered, a door of 30" feels minimally comfortable, ideally you would not want to turn your body at an angle of more than 45 degrees upon access to this space, this act causes more foot movement and shuffle of the feet causing a negative reaction to the experience.

We next need to examine how your conciuos being reacts to being within the space that is created. Simply put, if I build a box for you to shower within, how does it feel to stand within the confines of this box? If I construct a box that has no light, no interaction with the room and secludes you within it's confines you may feel restrained, held captive or even feel a small amount of panic. We need to consider this when we construct our space. It is practiced to use a small sub wall at a height of perhaps 36 to 48" as our barrier to the room rather than a solid total wall from floor to ceiling. Perhaps even a glass block wall of a certain pattern would feel less imposing in the space.

If we use the general design of the architecture of our physical bodies as a guide and keep our reaching limits within comfort, our feeling of confinements satisfied and our distinction of lighting satisfied we will find that we build a space that feels comfortable to ourselves as well as others. We find that we produce a product that has a better value for resale as others also feel at ease within the space that we create.

VWandDodge · Jul 8, 2011

Thanks for that feedback, Frank. I'll throw up some dimensions soonest of the existing layout. One reason I was thinking of going with glass block for the wall is to allow more light into the shower and remove the feeling of being smothered or restrained.

Frank The Plumber · Jul 8, 2011

I design quite a few of these, I often get an architect or designer extremely angry with me because I over take them on this aspect of the design. I try not to make them angry but ultimately the customer has a relationship with the plumber in this space. If I just install the product and it feels odd, the designer plays it at me for fault.

It is a good practice to involve any others who use the space, sometimes we ourselves will form a bias to our own view and not feel the space truly. I always look for the real initial reaction on a persons face as an indicator as to how they are experiencing the area.

Always get the S.O. involved in this aspect.

back2class · Jul 8, 2011

In the process of a re-do of my master bath right now. Thought about "tub only" for a few moments as my wife uses it and I just use a hall bathroom for showers. Big mistake for resale value! Many women like to take baths and they decide on what house to buy. 10 years as a contractor and occasional house flipper here and I can promise you this would be considered a big mistake by any real-estate sales person, flipper and about 1/2 of buyers. No tub/shower in master bath ranks right up at the top of the "list of DONT'S" for resale mistakes, no loud colors, swimming pools and garages converted to bonus rooms are other thigs to avoid.

You could get lucky and have a buyer that could care less, but about 1/2 of buyers would find it a big turn off. Even some who may be ok with just a shower will be thinking resale value when they are buying.

VWandDodge · Jul 8, 2011

back2class said:
In the process of a re-do of my master bath right now. Thought about "tub only" for a few moments as my wife uses it and I just use a hall bathroom for showers. Big mistake for resale value! Many women like to take baths and they decide on what house to buy. 10 years as a contractor and occasional house flipper here and I can promise you this would be considered a big mistake by any real-estate sales person, flipper and about 1/2 of buyers. No tub/shower in master bath is right up at the top of this list of DONT'S for resale with no loud colors, swimming pools and garages converted to bonus rooms.

You could get lucky and have a buyer that could care less, but about 1/2 of buyers would find it a big turn off. Even some who may be ok with just a shower will be thinking resale value when they are buying.

That's what irks me. Long story short I bought this house because the (then) wife really had to have it. I've been divorced for 10 years and have been working ever so slowly to fix everything that's been wrong or was FUBAR with this place so I can sell it. I hate playing the second guessing game of what would or wouldn't be good for resale. My parents built their house circa 1967 and the Master Bath has a shower only. The hall bathroom has a shower/tub.

All I know is that the next house I buy one of my first courses of action will be to remodel the master bath to have a stand alone shower.

Frank The Plumber · Jul 8, 2011

That's a good and valid point brought up. But to a point. Some of the things to consider would be your overall comfort with your home. Are you planning on moving? Could your job move you? How long will you live in your home? Will you stay there for the rest on your days? Do you have mobility issues that require or favor a shower only situation?
In several cases I have designed mobility favorable baths. These baths were designed for elder folks whom knew full well that in the coming years that mobility was going to be an issue. Doors and heights were altered for the approaching days, a time when once arrived, it would be difficult to suit the home to those needs and live through the renovations comfortably.
In these cases, where a mobility challenged lifestyle was addressed, if the design was proper and correctly and done with care and taste, these homes upon the owners passings, were actually reinhabited sooner than those homes without these designs.
You would find few of these homes done tastefully on the market at an affordable rate and yet many elder citizens would enjoy the benefits of this type of situation being preexisting on the housing market.

Ultimately, design and live in the home for yourself. If you are not a home flipper or a real estate opportunist, live in your home, stay in your home and enjoy your home.
In some cases a tub is required by code, this even I believe is silly.
Enjoy the space that you live in especially if you are staying there a long time. Let the kids worry about the BS when they sell the house after you are gone.

Ok so You responded and I will add that if you are selling or flipping put in a nice cast iron tub, no BS just a vanilla wafer and a decent enclosure door. They like the cast iron because it sounds so solid.
If you are not long term then just build for the market and get the heck out. None of the design principle applies.
In truth you are just remodeling it to the tastes of the lazy realtors who want a plain jane easy to sell unit that needs few words spoken to sell. Ask them what exactly your market likes so you can get out of it fast.

shoot summ · Jul 8, 2011

I removed the tub from my master bath and built a shower area. We do have a tub in a another bathroom though so I guess I do have a chance to sell my house at some point...

I would do it again without hesitation, the tub was a PITA in the master where all of the kids shower.

steel 35 · Jul 8, 2011

I did remove a tub and put a 1/2 sized shower in and a closet for linen and stuff (storage) some days wish I still lived there, I have 6 cases of nice block's Id trade for a few simple little bearings you have

you pay freight.

chris fresh · Jul 8, 2011

go with the shower idea,6 out of 10 bath's i do are tub to shower conversions,heres one i just finished today,all that's left is for the glass company to come in monday.it's an older couple and were afraid of slipping in the tub,also added the grab bar at thier request.

metal1313 · Jul 8, 2011

it depends on where the house stands in the area's home market, most mid level income homes, the buyers may not care if the master has a tub or not, to get top dollar tubs in the master are a must.

i did a job for someone converting a bedroom into the masterbath. 16x14 room, they wanted the best, and in the end it cost them close to 100k for just that room,,, not that they cared it was a 10million+nyc penthouse. the difference in having and not having a master tub depends on the area, the areas market, and how you can make the room functional yet gasp fashionable. becuase thats what women want

hunter1151 · Jul 9, 2011

The older ya get the more time you spend in the bathroom............when we built our house we considered the amount of time spent each day in the bathroom and wanted it to be nice........................

Lippyp · Jul 9, 2011

If you've got kids then you need a bathtub, you can't bath small children in a shower so if its a family home and you are likely to move on at some time to me a bath is a must. Also frankly I'd hate not having a bath, a shower is a nice refreshing and quick way to wash but to me after a hard days graft outside in the cold theres nothing better than lying in a hot pool of your own filth with a cold beer and a good book, maybe its my feminine side coming out. This is why we have a huge bathtub that I can get my 6'3" frame into and lie up to my neck in. My holiday home in France doesn't have a bath at the moment, just a shower but that will change when I get around to building the ground floor bathroom as the ceiling is too low down there for a shower so its got to be a bath.

VWandDodge · Jul 9, 2011

chris fresh said:
go with the shower idea,6 out of 10 bath's i do are tub to shower conversions, here's one i just finished today,all that's left is for the glass company to come in Monday.it's an older couple and were afraid of slipping in the tub,also added the grab bar at their request.

Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking -- a grab bar and a built up seat. A few years ago, my mother was asking around where she could find a chair or something for the shower. A lot of people thought she was nuts. She persisted and learned that there are special chairs for elderly and handicapped people to use in a shower. I chalk up the bathtub/shower combination to something we're all accustomed to seeing and if it's not there then "there's something wrong with that". IMHO, a garage should not be attached to the house; however, a large percentage of all house plans include an attached garage.

I think I'm going to go for it and will adjust the drawing for a 2" barrier (glass blocks). I would include a grab bar and possibly a built up seat, which I would use as a selling point for the house. I live waaaayyyy out in the sticks, so being a bit different wouldn't be a killer. My target buyer will be some of the older people who work at the Air Force base but want to move to the country (many of them do). I'll tweak the drawings and post them.

gahrajmahal · Jul 11, 2011

Here are the things I have always liked about our master bath. It has a shower only at 3' deep x 5 ' long. The commode is in the same room opposite the shower. There is a pocket door separating the shower/commode from the sink area. Opposite the sink is a long closet with two sets of French doors, so even if left open you can go by. The whole bath is 7 ft wide x 12 ft long. My favorite improvement I made was an electric heated floor under the tile. I also used a curved shower rod and curtains. We replace the curtain around once a year and wash it about every 3 months. No cleaning maintainance of glass doors. I re-tiled using polished limestone with limestone baseboards. Quality fixtures and materials will give it the ooh factor. Also, I put in a solatube skylight and used a glass platter instead of the cheap plastic cover. The sunlight on the natural stone really sets it off. My only gripe is the grout in the shower. I would put in solid surfacing walls in the shower with some fancy tile inserts.

VWandDodge · Jul 11, 2011

gahrajmahal said:
Here are the things I have always liked about our master bath. It has a shower only at 3' deep x 5 ' long. The commode is in the same room opposite the shower. There is a pocket door separating the shower/commode from the sink area. Opposite the sink is a long closet with two sets of French doors, so even if left open you can go by. The whole bath is 7 ft wide x 12 ft long. My favorite improvement I made was an electric heated floor under the tile. I also used a curved shower rod and curtains. We replace the curtain around once a year and wash it about every 3 months. No cleaning maintainance of glass doors. I re-tiled using polished limestone with limestone baseboards. Quality fixtures and materials will give it the ooh factor. Also, I put in a solatube skylight and used a glass platter instead of the cheap plastic cover. The sunlight on the natural stone really sets it off. My only gripe is the grout in the shower. I would put in solid surfacing walls in the shower with some fancy tile inserts.

Please post some pictures. That sounds very interesting. How well do those solatubes work?

Steve from Socal · Jul 11, 2011

My house was built in 1964 as one of several hundred in the tract, all the master baths are stall showers and the second full bath has a tub. Personally unless you have the space for a nice sized tub I would do a shower. Literally thousands of houses here in the San Fernando Valley built in the 1960~1980's are like this.

Steve

cdseven95 · Jul 12, 2011

I am about to rip out the shower/tub in mine... Its a fiberglass tub with jets that I would never used since I am not of fan of laying in a something with water containing my own filth..

The bathroom was redone 10 years ago.

VWandDodge · Jul 12, 2011

This has proven to be interesting. I've asked DIY friends of mine, a couple of whom are tradesman, as well as some people on another forum, all of whom are in favor or my building a full sized shower. One of the tradesman stated the following: "...translucent/glass blocks have become more commercial these days.. that said, I like them!!!.. presized glass swing out shower doors(and frames) are fairly inexpensive, and would probably make you happier than a curtain(due to lighting... unless you have an overhead in the shower, then disregard what I say....LOL).. since you are building the wall, you can leave an opening sized for the door..."

So, I now have two challenges, 1) sketch some layouts for a full sized shower, and 2) how to build a proper shower pan on an existing slab. I'll try to post some pictures of what the bathroom looks like right now. It's rather difficult due to the narrow size.

Frank The Plumber · Jul 12, 2011

Ask the real estate person.

VWandDodge · Jul 12, 2011

Frank The Plumber said:
Ask the real estate person.

No. I went down that road once, and it was the biggest mistake in the world. Some real estate agents think they are interior decorators and design artists. I had one at my house several years ago to give me some pointers, and what I got instead was someone having a near fatal heart attack over stupid ****.

"OHMYGAWD!!! This floor tile is ATROCIOUS! You never should have gone with that!!!!" Then it was, "Oh, the garage door doesn't look that bad. Slap a coat of paint on it and call it good." The garage door looked like it had survived the Bombing of Dresden. Some realtors literally talk people into spending thousands on complete remodels when all the house needs is some clean-up and fresh paint. Since I've already been working to rehab this house for quite some time and am literally in the middle of the job, I'm going to continue with my original plan.

SPDMETL · Jul 12, 2011

Lippyp said:
theres nothing better than lying in a hot pool of your own filth with a cold beer and a good book

Yeah...this. So where do I buy a bathtub that will let me soak my WHOLE body ?

VWandDodge · Jul 13, 2011

I had also sent a copy of the drawings and my narrative to the realtor I've been working with, and her response is that in houses she's showing the master bathroom has a shower stall provided there is a tub in the house. This just further solidifies my position that the preference is a stand alone shower in the master bath.

VWandDodge · Jul 17, 2011

Here are some pictures of the master bath in its current state. It's difficult to photograph considering the cramped space, but you get the idea.

TurnipTruck · Jul 18, 2011

We have remodelled every single room in my bathtubless 2000-sq-ft ranch. The powder room gained a shower, and the main bathroom got its tub jerked out and now has a 3'x8' glass-block walled shower. The shop also has a shower. If the next owners need to bathe children, they'll have to do it in the shop laundry sink.

VWandDodge · Jul 18, 2011

TurnipTruck said:
We have remodelled every single room in my bathtubless 2000-sq-ft ranch. The powder room gained a shower, and the main bathroom got its tub jerked out and now has a 3'x8' glass-block walled shower. The shop also has a shower. If the next owners need to bathe children, they'll have to do it in the shop laundry sink.

Would you mind posting pics of your glass-block shower?

VWandDodge · Jul 29, 2011

I've been searching all over the 'net for information how to build a shower pan. A friend of mine pointed out how some bathroom styles use pebbles for the floor of the shower and also the bathroom as they provide a good, slip-resistant surface.

PurdueSD · Jul 29, 2011

If you plan on selling in 3 years anyways a shower tub combo is the obvious choice.

(I am not a fan of tub showers either)

You are gunna move so deal with it for now. That way it cant be a reason for some wife to cross your house off the list.

smschriefer · Jul 29, 2011

I just redid my shower (this past weekend actually) and went with a white 3x6 subway tile with frameless glass doors. I was amazed at how much bigger the bathroom feels. I think my bath is a mirror opposite of yours.

old bath

new bath

smschriefer · Jul 29, 2011

I forgot to add a rant while I was at it. I hate the short shower surrounds that are sold, as the drywall above them gets wet and the surrounding wall cavity will have mold issues. I am a firm believer in tile to the ceiling now. Like you I went with hardibacker over 15# roofing paper. I also painted the wall cavities with gloss paint to make it as hard as possible for mold to grow. Here is what I dealt with.

nate379 · Jul 29, 2011

If it was me, I'd pull the tubs out and just do a shower. I haven't taken a bath in well over 20 years.

nate379 · Jul 29, 2011

If it was me, I'd pull the tubs out and just do a shower. I haven't taken a bath in well over 20 years. Don't have time or disire for that. If my shower takes me more than 5 mins someone call the ambulance cause I must be dead in there.

Master Bath Remodel -- Feedback/Ideas

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