"analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hammer

diesel research · Jul 19, 2011

"analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hammer

I was almost ready to buy a ph3050a and take the dealer up on his free retainer offer. A few things stuck out in my head.

The main one was control. After using it to punch some melted bolts out of a frame rail, I was concerned about control. It hit hard, but was a bit difficult to keep on target sometimes, and the trigger isn't really featherable. Now I know what the aircraft guys are talking about.

So I looked into some 4x aircraft guns, but didn't come up with anything conclusive.

I noticed the ir121 has a feather trigger. Almost bought it at northern yesterday. Thank god they were sold out, I found tooltopia sells a 121 with chisels and case for $50 less.

Mean while, I accidentally stumbled into something on tooltopia that made me say "wtf is that?!"

http://www.tooltopia.com/ingersoll-rand-118max.aspx

Tooltopia lists as "out of stock"
$116 for either short or long

* Ingersoll Rand is proud to introduce the latest addition to the MAX family of tools. In keeping with the tradition of Ingersoll Rand MAX tools, the 118MAX and 122MAX vibration reduced air hammers deliver:
* MAX comfort: Anti-vibration feature reduces tool vibration by over 30% when compared to standard air hammers in it class.
* MAX Power: 15% increase in impact force over standard air hammer product offering.
* MAX Productivity: Quick-change retainer allows for faster chisel changeovers, so you can get the job done.

More research shows
118MAX: Shank .401”, BPM 2500, Stroke 3.5”, weight 4.6 lbs, length 10.5”, Air Consumption 2.98 cfm, Vibration 5.7 m/s2

122MAX: Shank .401”, BPM 3500, Stroke 2.63”, weight 4.0 lbs, length 8.6”, Air Consumption 2.93 cfm, Vibration 7.5 m/s2

These units are expected to hit shelves September 1st

http://www.coptool.com/blog/2011/07/new_ingersoll_rand_max_air_ham.html

It is still not a feather trigger gun as far as I can tell? Now I have yet another candidate to consider. No, I will not consider the famous CP guns like the CP717

Seanbev24 · Jul 19, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

I can't comment on those new IR's, but the ph3050a is far better than anything else I've tried. I think with an air hammer that hits so hard, a little difficulty staying on target is just the nature of the beast.

BlindViper · Jul 19, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

You could get this hammer
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product__99986962-P_N3470_T|GRP2003____

If you add the cheapest thing available and cross the 50$ line and enter coupon a123 you can get it for about 31$

ChrisStarks · Jul 19, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

I have the ph3050, and am able to feather the trigger, maybe you tried a junk gun? Theres also a few speed settings for dialing it down a little. In my opinion, I'd rather have a hammer that hits TOO hard, than not hard enough.

diesel research · Jul 19, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

ChrisStarks said:
I have the ph3050, and am able to feather the trigger, maybe you tried a junk gun? Theres also a few speed settings for dialing it down a little. In my opinion, I'd rather have a hammer that hits TOO hard, than not hard enough.

I have a shop provided rivet setter at work, because we set quite a few bucking rivets. Trust me. Until you have used one of them, you may not be aware what control is actually like. Yes, I know of the 4 position air dial. That's not the same thing.

As far as junk, probably not. Like I said, it hit plenty hard. Not hard enough to pop out a few of the bolts, but I later found that no hammer would, since they had completely melted and fused to the rail. The others were not, and with minor struggle, popped them out.

As far as too hard vs not hard enough, I'd rather have one that hits just right.

That is what control is about. If you are skilled, you CAN set a rivet with a ph3050, but it may take a lot of practice. Once you figure it out, you might become the fastest rivet setter around.

It's no doubt powerful and serves a wide variety of needs in automotive where you need a sledge but a little more precision and don't have the swinging space. It's just a little bit like trying to drive a top fuel dragster through rush hour. In several other incidents with much flatter surfaces, it worked great, and one could just go nearly full throttle w/o issue. Due to the jagged surface of these melted bolts, one required more finesse to start the action and keep the punch on point.

The matco I used had a bit more control and less power.

The ir114 mentioned above, won't be on this list. It failed too many tasks for being almost brand need. A lot of buzzing, less pounding. Works to cut rivets, not so great to pop seized pins or bolts.

ricleh · Jul 20, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

Why don't you buy a rivet setter such as the one you use at work? There is a big difference in control between a rivet setter and an air hammer as you are already aware. Get a rivet setter if that's what you need.

ourkid2000 · Jul 20, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

We have a load of Taylor & Sioux rivet guns (various....2x, 4x, etc) at work and they hit wicked hard......they also have the feather triggers.

I use em on the screw-knocker (or rattler, whatever you want to call it). We get them from www.browntool.com and they have been very reliable.

diesel research · Jul 20, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

ricleh said:
Why don't you buy a rivet setter such as the one you use at work? There is a big difference in control between a rivet setter and an air hammer as you are already aware. Get a rivet setter if that's what you need.

Do they make a rivet setter that packs a punch like a ph3050 when needed? Who? how many "x"? How much?

tankboy_taylor · Jul 20, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

that ph3050 is a beast its the one snap on air tool ive used that lives up to the hype

Cryts · Jul 20, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

I own a ph3050a. Up until I bought the Snap-On I regularly borrowed a co-worker's CP717 when my old hammer couldn't handle a task. The CP717 is much easier to control than the ph3050a. It's got the same stroke length, hits even harder, and yet it feels like a precision instrument.

I know you said no to the CP717. I'm just using it as an example of how you can't blame the SO's trigger response on its power.

ricleh · Jul 20, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

diesel research said:
Do they make a rivet setter that packs a punch like a ph3050 when needed? Who? how many "x"? How much?

I don't know. I personally have never used a rivet setter with the kind of power that the ph3050 has. This may be a case where one tool won't do everything you want.

diesel research · Jul 20, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

Cryts said:
I own a ph3050a. Up until I bought the Snap-On I regularly borrowed a co-worker's CP717 when my old hammer couldn't handle a task. The CP717 is much easier to control than the ph3050a. It's got the same stroke length, hits even harder, and yet it feels like a precision instrument.

I know you said no to the CP717. I'm just using it as an example of how you can't blame the SO's trigger response on its power.

Duly noted. I kept the CP717 out of the discussion because we are talking about a $600-$800 gun. Not to mention the oddball (or less common) .498 shank that has a much smaller selection of bits.

I am not sure why most hammers seem to be on-off triggered. More or less. Sure there is some trigger travel and a little variance in power throughout the travel, but doesn't seem the same.

I suppose the smaller CP714 could be considered, but do not know anyone who has one.

I plan to spend money on a quality new gun that continues to shake the earth after I'm gone (with a rebuild kit of course)

This isn't a light duty autoshop, and the home owner grade stuff from the big box stores (sears lowes HD ect ect) or HF, doesn't cut it. Well sometimes they do.

ourkid2000 · Jul 20, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

diesel research said:
Do they make a rivet setter that packs a punch like a ph3050 when needed? Who? how many "x"? How much?

Do they ever.....

I have seen guys using a rivet gun (I believe it is a 9x that they bought specifically for this job) to drive out nacelle pins on Dash-8's.........the noise is beyond belief, even in a very large hangar you cannot hide from the noise. You NEED ear protection everywhere.

They hit hard, I assure you.

I can get more info on this if you need as I am not 100% familiar with the larger rivet guns.

diesel research · Aug 16, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

So , while I was waiting for those IR hammers to be released and try, I stumbled on a few more that I do not have experience with.

The CP717s smaller brother, the CP714. Seems to be about the same price as ph3050a.

http://www.tooltopia.com/chicago-pneumatic-714.aspx

Not sure how that performs, and likely a bit to expensive to try out for myself w/o other comparisons/reviews.

The Sioux 4x (270A-4) for slightly more. Also not sure how well it performs. Since Sioux is a snap on company, one could only assume...

Then this one caught my eye, not because of the color, but the warranty

ATS-4X-GREEN 4x hammer

...of course, it's all backed by our industry leading unconditional ATS-Pro Lifetime Warranty.

For around $190

The Dutchman · Aug 16, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

I bought the CP717 about 6 months ago, new, for about $460, although some sites sold it for as much as a grand. There are companies like Ajax & Ohio Power Tool where you can get enough .498" attachments. (I speak for myself, at any rate, as an auto mechanic.) It's quite featherable, but almost useless (to me) without a quick change chisel retainer. So far it's served me excellently & it's the go-to "borrow" tool for my coworkers. The strongest air hammer, though, is useless, unless you firmly support the work-piece. (Control arm, for example, when driving out ball joint rivets.)

After reading this thread I kind of wish I had checked out the Sioux line more. They started out in like 1914, & either invented or had a hand in the development of the early valve grinding machines! Their forte over the decades was making air & electric power tools for use on assembly lines, & not just for the car companies--factory assembly lines in general, where you need reliability--(can't have unreliable tools with the conveyor belt constantly moving, I would think.) So they were in the "industrial" sphere, as opposed to the auto repair/aircraft maitenance/construction trade spheres. Maybe that's why a lot of auto mechanics don't know of them. They ran into stiff competition from Asian manufacturers, & were rescued (bought) by Snap-On in 1995. They make all of Snap-On's cordless tools & possibly a lot of their air tools.

I'll show my ignorance at this point by asking, what does 4X, 9X, etc, mean, vis-a-vis air hammers?

hammergodthor · Aug 16, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

Your IR looks like a Napa or a Cornwell @ $214/224:

https://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?A=NPT61080_0006399004&An=0

http://www.cornwelltools.com/webcat/products.php?product=CAT3250AHMV-%252d-Super-Duty-Air-Hammer-with-Vibration-Reduction#

I have the Napa and its okay, fairly feather-able, but I think the SO might be more feather-able, based on playing with a co-workers for a few minutes.

stylee · Aug 16, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

what does 4X, 9X, etc, mean, vis-a-vis air hammers?

. The X means times a 16th of an inch. A 4X riverer will drive a 1/4 inch aluminum rivet for aircraft work. A 3X riveter a 3/16 rivet, etc.

The Dutchman · Aug 16, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

stylee said:
. The X means times a 16th of an inch. A 4X riverer will drive a 1/4 inch aluminum rivet for aircraft work. A 3X riveter a 3/16 rivet, etc.

Thank you.

bmxr4life87 · Aug 17, 2011

Re: "analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hamme

We used 3x and occasinally a 4x at my aircraft mfg job.... I understand control in a gun is everything.. just like holding your drill andsqueezing the trigger with your middle finger gives you far better control

"analytical paralysis" ..... just when I thought I was ready to buy an air hammer

diesel research

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Seanbev24

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BlindViper

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ChrisStarks

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diesel research

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ricleh

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ourkid2000

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diesel research

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Cryts

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