Rookie in need of advice, anchor bolts.

DrB2319 · Aug 27, 2011

Hi, new to the forum, also about to be a new owner of a garage.

Pad is complete, however with one (hopefully) minor problem. However bear with me as I am fairly ignorant to some of the details and jargon in the construction world.

The concrete guy did not install the L bolts during the pour (anchor bolts as I've also heard them referred to). He gave me some reason but at this point it is moot as it changes nothing. He told me he would install them in a few days when the concrete hardens up. I assume he is drilling the 1/2" bolts in, how else would he install them right? Here is where I get nervous and my carpenter is also getting edgy. The curb is 4" wide, not a whole lot of room for any error here.

My questions are:

Is installing these bolts after the concrete is laid/hardened a big problem, does if happen all the time etc?

Can this be screwed up and become a much bigger problem?

Are there absolute no no's in trying to pull this off, or are there sure fire ways to do this and not screw this up?

If this were to go totally wrong, what solutions are there before having to resort to tearing up a pad?

FWIW this garage is located in north east Ohio, so it will most likely never see hurricane type winds.

Thanks for any advice, I am freaking out, and hopefully for no reason.

nehog · Aug 27, 2011

What kind of building? When I built my steel building, the manufacturer was very specific on anchor bolt installation (install, the pour the slab.) If this is a manufactured building, I'd strongly recommend contacting the manufacturer and asking them--it will affect their liability if there are problems in the future.

5lima30 · Aug 27, 2011

At my last place I had a metal pre-fab garage. The installers drilled the bottom plate and the slab and put in "red head" bolts that use a 2-part epoxy to fasten them to the slab. The garage was still standing with no problems when I sold it. YMMV.

DrB2319 · Aug 27, 2011

Old fashioned wood garage, 26*23 with trusses. IOW just a giant dog house.

ETA: I'm an owner who is very worried that this is a big problem in the short term and could be in the long term. So I'm hoping to gather good info/advice to double check my concrete guy's plans on this anchor bolt issue as I've read there are many ways to do this. Most people I spoken with make this sound like a pretty big F up on his part.

KELLHAMMER · Aug 27, 2011

Not unusal to install bolts or anchors after plates are set. But, proper bolts/ anchors are required. 1/2" diameter Red heads or quick bolts should be acceptable. Proper spacing should be something like 48 on center, 2 bolts per wall min, 12 inches from corners max.

KELLHAMMER · Aug 27, 2011

1/2" diameter Epoxy set, all thread works too

DrB2319 · Aug 27, 2011

Is the 1/2" bolt going into an only 4" wide curb not an issue?, from what I understand there is a minimum distance from edge that is highly recommended when installing these bolts?

cwlo · Aug 27, 2011

How high is the 4" curb? Putting expansion bolts in afterwards is usually not a problem, except that a 4" curb is a little thin. I would opt for epoxying them in rather than the friction expansion type bolts. Seems like less of a chance of cracking the curb.

Chris

DrB2319 · Aug 27, 2011

Quick semi related question, is it normal for any of the fiber mesh to be sticking out of the concrete after it is poured and dry?

stingry · Aug 27, 2011

DrB2319 said:
Hi, new to the forum, also about to be a new owner of a garage.

Pad is complete, however with one (hopefully) minor problem. However bear with me as I am fairly ignorant to some of the details and jargon in the construction world.

The concrete guy did not install the L bolts during the pour (anchor bolts as I've also heard them referred to). He gave me some reason but at this point it is moot as it changes nothing. He told me he would install them in a few days when the concrete hardens up. I assume he is drilling the 1/2" bolts in, how else would he install them right? Here is where I get nervous and my carpenter is also getting edgy. The curb is 4" wide, not a whole lot of room for any error here.

My questions are:

Is installing these bolts after the concrete is laid/hardened a big problem, does if happen all the time etc?

Can this be screwed up and become a much bigger problem?

Are there absolute no no's in trying to pull this off, or are there sure fire ways to do this and not screw this up?

If this were to go totally wrong, what solutions are there before having to resort to tearing up a pad?

FWIW this garage is located in north east Ohio, so it will most likely never see hurricane type winds.

Thanks for any advice, I am freaking out, and hopefully for no reason.

The "L" bolts as you call them have to be set when the concrete is wet. Now he will have to use some type of anchor bolt that has to be drilled in as described in the above posts.

ConCretin · Aug 27, 2011

DrB2319 said:
Quick semi related question, is it normal for any of the fiber mesh to be sticking out of the concrete after it is poured and dry?

Yes it is

383 · Aug 27, 2011

Bolts with epoxy should be fine. Seeing some fiber is normal, a quick pass with a torch will remove it.

DrB2319 · Aug 27, 2011

Well the more I look at this pad, with my admitted lack of experience and knowledge on this stuff, the more I worry. Is it normal to see stone/gravel imprints (shadows or dark spots) amid a light gray or whitish background, 48hrs after the pour? That sounds like a very light or shallow pour.

Wondering if I got the screws put to me now.

green.bubbly · Aug 27, 2011

Dang, you are worrying more than I did. So far, you are doing fine. Do you have any pics of the discoloration? It is failrly normal to have varying colors. Did they cover the concrete with plastic or anything after it was poured? Did they use a power trowel or was it done by hand?

DrB2319 · Aug 27, 2011

No covering at all, hand troweled everything. I asked if I should hose it down and he said it isn't necessary, I've read quite the opposite the past few days (so I'm torn there).

I'm mostly going by the opinion of my carpenter, since he has 20 years experience of working on fresh pads while building garages. In his opinion it is a horrible pad. Curbs look pretty bad in some spots, some sagging. Curbs definitely do not stay level with a string test. Not sure to what nth degree the pad should be level using the same string test, but there is inconsistencies from front to back and left to right.

I will post pics tomorrow if it helps form an opinion for others.

green.bubbly · Aug 27, 2011

The hand troweling could explain the varying color of the cured concrete. As long as the surface is hard and not powdery, you should be fine. I have no experience with a concrete curb on a slab but I will say that generally, slabs will have some inconsistencies. They are formed with boards and boards are not always exactly straight.

brownbagg · Aug 27, 2011

its not necessary because he dosent want to do it, he didnt install the l bolts because hard to finish around the bolt. Your concrete guy is a hack. somebody who been doing it wrong for twenty years. The slab needs to cure, that means wet it down and cover with plastic for seven days. Epoxy bolts are fine and meet code but sure is more expensive than l bolts. Your concrete guy stupidity is costing you extra money

DrB2319 · Aug 27, 2011

green.bubbly said:
The hand troweling could explain the varying color of the cured concrete. As long as the surface is hard and not powdery, you should be fine. I have no experience with a concrete curb on a slab but I will say that generally, slabs will have some inconsistencies. They are formed with boards and boards are not always exactly straight.

I'm talking about the grade consistency. The pad looks very square, it was the most square forming job a few of my experienced friends ever saw in their words. But running the string on the ground front of pad to rear (on both L&R sides) there were noticeable gaps, same when running string from left to right (in both front & back). Again not sure if that is poor workmanship or mostly unavoidable stuff.

DrB2319 · Aug 27, 2011

brownbagg said:
its not necessary because he dosent want to do it, he didnt install the l bolts because hard to finish around the bolt. Your concrete guy is a hack. somebody who been doing it wrong for twenty years. The slab needs to cure, that means wet it down and cover with plastic for seven days. Epoxy bolts are fine and meet code but sure is more expensive than l bolts. Your concrete guy stupidity is costing you extra money

To be accurate here my carpenter is the one with 20 years exp. telling me the concrete guy is a hack. No idea how long the concrete guy has been in biz.

ETA: again my biggest concern with the bolts now needing to be drilled in is that they will blow out the very narrow curb.

ddawg16 · Aug 28, 2011

How high is that curb?

As for expoyed anchor bolts....in realty...an 8" all thread bolt has greater holding strength than a 12" L bolt...reason being, the L bolt can actually straighten and pull out of the hole.

I am in the middle of doing a 2-story addition to my house and I had to install additional anchor bolts and some hold down rods in my existing foundation. The Deputy Inspector who came to 'observe' me installing the bolts said that if those ever pull out.....it means we are having a 9.5 quake...

Epoxy is fine....as long as he drills deep enough to get into the actual footing.

DrB2319 · Aug 28, 2011

Here are some pics of this pad:

stone shadows as I mentioned

curbs, notice falling curb, then the awful job of finishing them

nehog · Aug 28, 2011

You are kidding right? And you didn't pay the "contractor" for that mess? I'd tell him to rip it all out at his expense and then hire someone who can do a proper workmanship work to do it right.

jhelrey · Aug 28, 2011

I would be pissed.... Looks like sheeet

ddawg16 · Aug 28, 2011

Time to be worried....time to document everything.....and most likely time to get a lawyer.....I certainly hope you have a contract......

Even I could do better work than that......

hdossett · Aug 28, 2011

And I was upset over these two spots! My own fault, twenty corners and I missed one, and, just about waited too long to put the J-bolts in!

Looks like your contractor tried to pull forms waaaay to soon! Or did not used forms on the inside! I watched contractors do it that way in FL, but, they knew what they were doing and rebar was in place for CBS. A four inch curb doesn't leave any room for error!

Good luck on getting it taken care of!

H

p_mori7 · Aug 28, 2011

that's one crappy slab man...

ConCretin · Aug 28, 2011

DrB2319 said:
I'm talking about the grade consistency. The pad looks very square, it was the most square forming job a few of my experienced friends ever saw in their words. But running the string on the ground front of pad to rear (on both L&R sides) there were noticeable gaps, same when running string from left to right (in both front & back). Again not sure if that is poor workmanship or mostly unavoidable stuff.

The standard test for floor flatness is to check it with a 10' straightedge. Gaps under 1/8" means you have a very good floor. Gaps under a 1/4" aren't that unusual. Worse than that and you didn't get a great job.

Doesn't sound like this guy was working under any particular spec so you a pretty much stuck with whatever he gave you. Based on the rest of your post, I wouldn't expect great results.

EDiT: Didn't see the pictures before I made this post. There are definitely issues here beyond flatness. The workmanship is not good. With what I can see, I'd be worried about what I can't see. Don't give the man any more money!

383 · Sep 1, 2011

HOLY ****!! :shocking:

Did a cat puke on your curb? I'm glad I don't have to build on that.

Az Scooter · Sep 1, 2011

Time to file a protest with your state Registrar of Contractors. I am fairly certain that they will either make the contractor, I use the term loosely, repair or redo the work, or will dip into the contingency fund to find a proper contractor.

There is no excuse to work that poor.

And drilled anchors are stronger then L bolts.

Falcon67 · Sep 1, 2011

You may find that the color goes more consistent after some time. I only watered for a couple of days and it took my slad=b almost 3 weeks to go from "blotchy" to a uniform color.

I put in the anchors on mine - 12" from the corners and about every 6'. I put marks on the forms where I wanted them so none ended up in a stud. I wanted a bit long on a couple but I was able to hammer them in and fill around the hole with fresh concrete. Out of 24, only one had a little wiggle and one sunk a bit too far, ending up with just enough thread to get the nut started.

I'm sorry about the curbs - there will be issues there. Stuff happens during a pour - mine has about a 2" variance in level over 40' because we banged some of the forms by accident. No big deal to me. The plate areas are level and flat enough that I could just run a bead of concrete caulk under the plates to seal them to the slab.

I would be looking at cleaning then raising the curbs some number - maybe 1" - and adding all thread rods with epoxy (or anchors) about every 4', then using some kind of quality mortar or leveling material to get a consistent plate surface. Not an expoert in that area, but I'd think there would be something available.

I would also double check "square", or have your carpenter do it.

DrB2319 · Sep 3, 2011

Here is the big catch, the code for curbs is 4" minimum, the plans given to city to obtain permit had 4" curb requirements, no where on the entire pad do the curbs measure out to 4", the variances are from 3.387 to 3.8 at most.

Technically not able to build according to code, then add the fact that .5" anchor bolts need to be drilled in, never going to happen without blowing out the curb at some if not many spots.

Not to mention some other areas of unacceptable failures, even the pitch is wrong and possibly out of spec. Water is not running down hill out of the garage at this point. Saw cut never done, I was asked if I wanted a saw cut, not truly knowing what the purpose was I was told sometimes people want em sometimes they don't and that it doesn't really do anything. OMG. Found out it is not an option like leather seats on a car, it is a code standard procedure and MUST be done regardless of customers desires.

rogsmart · Sep 3, 2011

You need to call your state contractor's licensing board first thing Tuesday morning. Send em pictures. Often the threat of action against a contractor's license will motivate them. In Cal. contractors have a performance bond that can be seized by the state licensing board to help reimburse a customer that
they have screwed over.
Take more pictures, write everything down while it's still fresh in your mind. Ask the licensing board what your options are. You may or may not need to lawyer up depending on how things go.
On the other hand if this guy isn't licensed your options are rather more limited.

Oh, one more thing you might do. Get a reputable contractor to come out and examine the work and write a short letter about the deficiencies of the work. This will come in handy if you end up needing to seize this guys bond. Also whatever else you do, do not let this jerk come back and try to fix what he fxxxd up in the first place.

All that said, you as a home owner have a responsibility to do your due diligence on anybody you hire to do work for you. I don't mean this unkindly, but this was an entirely avoidable situation. Always check references, always see if there are complaints against their license (if they're are licensed). This takes time and effort (which is why people skip doing it) but it largely avoids the kind of the kind of **** you now have to wade through to get your project moving again. Best of luck resolving the situation and do keep us posted as to what happens.

DrB2319 · Sep 3, 2011

You're right and I am all over some of your suggestions, independent engineers coming out to take a look, already have opinions from other reputable concrete guys..they can barely stand here and look at this, it makes their eyes hurt.

I should probably be quiet the dude might be on these boards...LOL.

ConCretin · Sep 3, 2011

DrB2319, Might have missed it. Where are you located. Your options will very depending on local regs. A lot of places don't have licensing boards and such.

DrB2319 · Sep 3, 2011

Permit is in my name, as I'v been told by inspector that prevents him from being screwed with by city. Funny he was very excited and pushy on me getting permit once I mentioned it to him, I unfortunately didn't know why he would be so for that....now I suspect I know why.

rogsmart · Sep 4, 2011

But hey, on the bright side you will now be able to top anybody's contractor from hell story.

DrB2319 · Sep 9, 2011

Quick update on the situation/solution.

Turns out this clown is a real piece of work, typical clown with no assets and an extremely low probability of collecting if I got a legal judgement in my favor (which is an almost certainty in talking with my lawyer). Dude has enough of a criminal record that it just isn't worth dealing with retaliation tactics if he went that route.

Have to **** it up an take it as a lesson learned (shame a friend of a friend referral would end up as such).

As far as the concrete solution, city rejected the pad as is. So normally a ripping it out and re-pouring would be the solution. However a pretty sharp guy in the biz came up with an alternative to save a few G's. Cut and knock off curbs and pour a new pad on top of this one, with new curbs. The old pad would simply act as part of the foundation. It allows the opportunity to easily fix the pitch issues and re-level this for the building of the structure. With a few precautionary measure there is no reason it will not be more than suffice and long as last as any other pad done right the first time.

As long as the city is cool with it hopefully my problem is solved. Having a reputable guy with good relationships with the city inspectors makes this a high probability of a go.

1Garageman · Sep 9, 2011

I am going to follow this to see what you do. That guy/business did a crappy job!

nehog · Sep 9, 2011

DrB2319 said:
Quick update on the situation/solution.

Turns out this clown is a real piece of work, typical clown with no assets and an extremely low probability of collecting if I got a legal judgement in my favor (which is an almost certainty in talking with my lawyer). Dude has enough of a criminal record that it just isn't worth dealing with retaliation tactics if he went that route.

Figures... That's why he had you pull the permit, the town would probably have not issued to him.

Have to **** it up an take it as a lesson learned (shame a friend of a friend referral would end up as such).

As far as the concrete solution, city rejected the pad as is. So normally a ripping it out and re-pouring would be the solution. However a pretty sharp guy in the biz came up with an alternative to save a few G's. Cut and knock off curbs and pour a new pad on top of this one, with new curbs. The old pad would simply act as part of the foundation. It allows the opportunity to easily fix the pitch issues and re-level this for the building of the structure. With a few precautionary measure there is no reason it will not be more than suffice and long as last as any other pad done right the first time.

I think we all realized that in the end the pad was scrap. Now, about your sharp guy... Maybe you owe him a beer! I like that solution, and that will likely save you a lot of demo costs. It may even make the new slab better that it might have been otherwise.

As long as the city is cool with it hopefully my problem is solved. Having a reputable guy with good relationships with the city inspectors makes this a high probability of a go.

And for future readers of this thread, goes to show why one must look at a contractor's reputation and call a couple of prior customers for feedback and for the chance to view the contractor's work.

DrB2319 · Sep 9, 2011

Just FTR I accept some responsibility on getting burned. I didn't do much research, let my guard down a bit due to the friend of a friend referral (had to much inherent trust). So overpaying for something is a price I am willing to pay, if at least the end result is at least reasonably quality work that can be built on. Not the case here.

Rookie in need of advice, anchor bolts.

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