Square D breakers- Homeline vs QO

ixlr8 · Oct 6, 2011

I am having the breaker panel replaced in my house, I have an old FP panel and I need to add some breakers and I figure it is time to replace the old fire hazard. I have decided to put in a Square D panel, I was going to go with a QO panel.. my electrician is recommending I install a Homeline panel to save myself some money. So I have these questions, with the exception of the QO's being narrower and having a trip indicator...
Is there any difference in level of protection between the Homeline and QO breakers? Is it really worth paying 2x for the QO line vs the Homeline?

TIA

Gooch · Oct 6, 2011

ixlr8 said:
I am having the breaker panel replaced in my house, I have an old FP panel and I need to add some breakers and I figure it is time to replace the old fire hazard. I have decided to put in a Square D panel, I was going to go with a QO panel.. my electrician is recommending I install a Homeline panel to save myself some money. So I have these questions, with the exception of the QO's being narrower and having a trip indicator...
Is there any difference in level of protection between the Homeline and QO breakers? Is it really worth paying 2x for the QO line vs the Homeline?

TIA

no reason not to go with the Homeline breakers, they are fine for residential use.

Alchymist · Oct 6, 2011

There's a reason for that price difference - the QO is a better quality panel.
The HO is an adequate panel, but I chose the QO. The HO panel has aluminum buss bars, the QO has tinned copper bars. One is considered commercial, and one is homeowner. For a onetime extra cost, I think it's worth the difference. YMMV.

Alchymist · Oct 6, 2011

Then again, anything new is better than FP..... :wtf:

Gooch · Oct 6, 2011

Alchymist said:
There's a reason for that price difference - the QO is a better quality panel.
The HO is an adequate panel, but I chose the QO. The HO panel has aluminum buss bars, the QO has tinned copper bars. One is considered commercial, and one is homeowner. For a onetime extra cost, I think it's worth the difference. YMMV.

neither one has copper buss. you would have to get into a QOB panel or a or a QO Panelboard instead of the Load Centers. none of which will be in a homeowners budget.

although SQD's website say they have tinned copper, pretty sure almost all of them i've installed were alum buss.

Alchymist · Oct 6, 2011

From Schnieder's website:

"The QO load center and circuit breaker family is designed to satisfy individual requirements with a comprehensive selection: Exclusive shielded copper bus features electro tin plated copper bus bars sandwiched between two rugged polymer shields to insulate and secure the interior".

It's here:
http://products.schneider-electric....cts/load-centers/residential/qo-load-centers/

Guess I'll have to go check mine?

MrMark · Oct 6, 2011

Gooch said:
neither one has copper buss. you would have to get into a QOB panel or a or a QO Panelboard instead of the Load Centers. none of which will be in a homeowners budget.

although SQD's website say they have tinned copper, pretty sure almost all of them i've installed were alum buss.

Are there any QO combination meter main/load center that you have seen?

StumpjumperDave · Oct 6, 2011

I've been selling Square D equipment for 29 years.... I'd take a QO Loadcenter over the Homeline anyday.. You should never have to worry about it. I would recommend installing a Surge Protector in the new loadcenter... hopefully the others will agree with me on this..

Norcal · Oct 6, 2011

MrMark said:
Are there any QO combination meter main/load center that you have seen?

Just Homoline, the QO combos were dropped when the HOM frame breakers was introduced.

cowboyjosh · Oct 6, 2011

QO is what I spec for my new builds, sometimes when the HO wants to save money we'll change to Homeline or Eaton BR, junk. For a one time expense, go wih the best.

Gooch · Oct 6, 2011

MrMark said:
Are there any QO combination meter main/load center that you have seen?

not used around here. Services here are a seperate meter box mounted outside the building, with the panel inside the dwelling.

Norcal · Oct 6, 2011

cowboyjosh said:
QO is what I spec for my new builds, sometimes when the HO wants to save money we'll change to Homeline or Eaton BR, junk. For a one time expense, go wih the best.

Then you would have to use a Cutler - Hammer "Classic" panel,

QO panels for the last 25 years have been cheesy.

6768rogues · Oct 12, 2011

I have two QO panels at home and a Homeline in a barn at my farm. Both work well and no problems with either one. Yea, the QO is an upgrade. A Cadillac is an upgrade over a Chevy, but both get you where you are going. Want to go in style?

climbabout · Oct 13, 2011

I have been in the electrical supply business since 1973. My family has owned the same supply house since 1936. We have been Square D distributors since the 1940's. While we are now a Square D premier distributor and only carry their load centers, we did carry Murray, Federal Pacific, Bryant, Challenger and Cutler Hammer years ago. While the Homeline is a fine breaker, the QO has the fastest trip mechanism of any breaker. Years ago we had a device designed to compare which breakers tripped the fastest. It tested all the major brands at the time, including GE and those mentioned above. It also pitted each breaker against a plug fuse. The plug fuse was always the fastest trip against any breaker mechanism due to it's simplicity. But hands down the QO tripped fastest among ALL of the circuit breakers EVERY time. QO, incidentally stands for "quick open" and it's not just advertising hype. Anyone who has handled hot wires and accidentally shorted a circuit and not had the breaker trip instantly as is typical with most brands know what I am talking about. So why skimp on a device that is designed to protect your life? I find it amusing that customers who have just spent tens of thousands of dollars on granite countertops, expensive cabinets, and other items for their remodel or building project will complain about the cost of a smoke alarm or circuit breaker.
Tim

raley · Nov 6, 2011

ixlr8. sorry I don't have anything to add to this thread. Just curious what steps it takes to replace a panel? Im guessing talk to the power company, have them turn off the power at the pole, then you can replace, then get it turned back on?

ishiboo · Nov 6, 2011

raley said:
ixlr8. sorry I don't have anything to add to this thread. Just curious what steps it takes to replace a panel? Im guessing talk to the power company, have them turn off the power at the pole, then you can replace, then get it turned back on?

Basically, yeah. In most areas they actually disconnect the power at the pole.

Around here, the power company requires an inspection for most things before turning the power back on. My exterior service just failed and I had to replace it, in doing so I added a 100A outdoor breaker directly off the meter. Now, when I have to replace my panels in the house (which is on the to-do list) I can disconnect it outside.

I have a lock on both the main breaker (QO) and the enclosure, to be extra sure nobody turns it back on while I'm working

(Or the house off while I'm not!)

ishiboo · Nov 6, 2011

climbabout said:
I have been in the electrical supply business since 1973. My family has owned the same supply house since 1936. We have been Square D distributors since the 1940's. While we are now a Square D premier distributor and only carry their load centers, we did carry Murray, Federal Pacific, Bryant, Challenger and Cutler Hammer years ago. While the Homeline is a fine breaker, the QO has the fastest trip mechanism of any breaker. Years ago we had a device designed to compare which breakers tripped the fastest. It tested all the major brands at the time, including GE and those mentioned above. It also pitted each breaker against a plug fuse. The plug fuse was always the fastest trip against any breaker mechanism due to it's simplicity. But hands down the QO tripped fastest among ALL of the circuit breakers EVERY time. QO, incidentally stands for "quick open" and it's not just advertising hype. Anyone who has handled hot wires and accidentally shorted a circuit and not had the breaker trip instantly as is typical with most brands know what I am talking about. So why skimp on a device that is designed to protect your life? I find it amusing that customers who have just spent tens of thousands of dollars on granite countertops, expensive cabinets, and other items for their remodel or building project will complain about the cost of a smoke alarm or circuit breaker.
Tim

I believe the "quick open" feature is only on 15 and 20A breakers, and I don't believe that QO stands for quick open, though it may.

I'm surprised you are not aware that the Homeline and QO breakers are one and the same, at least for recent times. They will have the same trip curves and performance characteristics. I believe that they used to be different, as I used to have better luck with the QO breakers. I've had many CH and Homeline breakers fail over the years, not particularly frequently, but it has happened. Only one QO failure, and most of my panels are QO.

Both QO, Homeline and CH are great products IMO. I prefer the QO, and then the Homeline due to the layout and features of each.

79firebird · Nov 6, 2011

dont go Homeline my old panle was that had 2 15 amp brakers melt into it. my buddy who has been doing wireing for years has relaced more Homeline ones then fp due to probs

Gooch · Nov 7, 2011

79firebird said:
dont go Homeline my old panle was that had 2 15 amp brakers melt into it. my buddy who has been doing wireing for years has relaced more Homeline ones then fp due to probs

nope

TWX · Nov 7, 2011

I like the QO breakers because I find them in every store that carries any kind of circuit breaker. On top of that, if you need something odd, like a 50A single-pole breaker you can find it.

Even though the QO breakers are narrower, they do make tandem breakers for them, if that's a concern.

tatra · Nov 7, 2011

found this interesting ..........

http://www.google.ca/search?q=count...counterfeit+breakers+&aq=f&aqi=g-v3g-b1&aql=1

ixlr8 · Nov 7, 2011

I have received 4 quotes to change out the panel. I have had 2 of the 4 tell me that the narrower QO breakers, when used with electric baseboard heaters like I have, tend to run hotter as they are closer together with no air space between them and have been known to trip falsely. For this reason they were recommending the HL panels, plus saving $200.
Anybody here experiance, or hear, of this?
They all have said there is no difference in protection between the QO and HL breakers, 2 said they thought they were the same internals. I am leaning towards the QO as that is what I already have in the shop. When I remove the electric heat in the house in the near future, I will have some left over breakers from the house panel I can move to the shop.

TWX · Nov 7, 2011

If you already have QO, definitely stick with QO. You don't need to keep around as many spare breakers that way, and if something bad did happen that toasted a whole bunch of houes breakers, you'd be able to cannibalize shop breakers for the house if you needed to restore service to a hot water heater or air conditioner or the like.

If you're really worried about electric heat, put those breakers at one end or the other, or skip a breaker position on either side (assuming that's code) to give them some air space.

Aceman · Nov 7, 2011

ixlr8 said:
I have received 4 quotes to change out the panel. I have had 2 of the 4 tell me that the narrower QO breakers, when used with electric baseboard heaters like I have, tend to run hotter as they are closer together with no air space between them and have been known to trip falsely. For this reason they were recommending the HL panels, plus saving $200.
Anybody here experiance, or hear, of this?

I didn't read the whole thread, with that said, use QO since you already have that in your shop. If these electricians are worried about heat causing nuisance trips then they should know to seperate the breakers in the panel or put lightly loaded circuits in between them. That little excuse is not a good enough reason to put an aluminum bussed panel in as a replacement. I'd tell them to put in a full 40 space panel if they're worried they won't have room to seperate the breakers(I'm making an assumption that they spec'ed a 30 space). I'd always install a 40 space if I had my way, unless you have tiny house with only a handful of circuits.

raley · Nov 7, 2011

ixlr, what kind of prices did you hear? I currently have the fuse box, and want to upgrade to something else. At the same time I plan to upgrade service to 200 (probably) and also bury the line...

aandpdan · Nov 7, 2011

Stick with the QO, it's a nicer panel.

My folks own an all electric house and never once had a breaker trip for the heat.

Think about it. It shouldn't get that hot inside the panel.

TWX · Nov 7, 2011

aandpdan said:
Stick with the QO, it's a nicer panel.

My folks own an all electric house and never once had a breaker trip for the heat.

Think about it. It shouldn't get that hot inside the panel.

You bring up a good point. I'm in the Phoenix area, and my main panel is outside, surface-mounted on the west side of the house, in full sunlight from noon until almost dusk, and has probably twelve tandem breakers plus at least five double breakers... Never had one trip due to heat. It probably peaks at 140° inside that panel on the worst days in the summer...

ixlr8 · Nov 7, 2011

raley said:
ixlr, what kind of prices did you hear? I currently have the fuse box, and want to upgrade to something else. At the same time I plan to upgrade service to 200 (probably) and also bury the line...

Quotes are coming in about $1000 to replace existing panel with a 40 space 200amp QO panel with breakers for 38 of the spaces. The Homeline panel setup the same is coming in about $200 cheaper.

TWX · Nov 8, 2011

I recommend getting a quote on them installing a panel that you supply too. I don't remember smaller Homeline panels being that much cheaper, equivalent spacing percentage wise, to QO panels. Sounds like someone might be milking it a little.

cowboyjosh · Nov 8, 2011

ixlr8 said:
Quotes are coming in about $1000 to replace existing panel with a 40 space 200amp QO panel with breakers for 38 of the spaces. The Homeline panel setup the same is coming in about $200 cheaper.

For $200, id go with the QO especially if you plan on staying in your house. Now if your replacing a panel to sell the house i'd go with the cheapest panel i could find.

mebedave · Nov 8, 2011

Gooch said:
neither one has copper buss. you would have to get into a QOB panel or a or a QO Panelboard instead of the Load Centers. none of which will be in a homeowners budget.

although SQD's website say they have tinned copper, pretty sure almost all of them i've installed were alum buss.

I was in depot and the box for the QD says copper buss, so I opened the box...NO COPPER. Then I opened the box for the Homeline, good quality ! The only thing I saw difference wise (moreless)was the breakers them self's. The QD's are rated for a little larger wire size (one size larger)and a little red flag do-ma-jig that lets you see much easier which breaker is tripped. The QD breakers are two times the price I went with Homeline,not yet installed.I went with the full 40 space 200amp,I like the full size panel for the room and everyone can use a few more inches

mebedave · Nov 8, 2011

ixlr8 said:
Quotes are coming in about $1000 to replace existing panel with a 40 space 200amp QO panel with breakers for 38 of the spaces. The Homeline panel setup the same is coming in about $200 cheaper.

If you factor in the Homeline panel itself is about $50 to $70 cheaper, then add up the breaker cost (QD's are twice as much) you come up with $200 bucks real fast.

Alchymist · Nov 8, 2011

mebedave said:
I was in depot and the box for the QD says copper buss, so I opened the box...NO COPPER. Then I opened the box for the Homeline, good quality ! The only thing I saw difference wise (moreless)was the breakers them self's. The QD's are rated for a little larger wire size (one size larger)and a little red flag do-ma-jig that lets you see much easier which breaker is tripped. The QD breakers are two times the price I went with Homeline,not yet installed.I went with the full 40 space 200amp,I like the full size panel for the room and everyone can use a few more inches

I suspect you were seeing plated copper. Copper in the raw tends to tarnish, so the bus bars are plated.

bluesman2a · Nov 8, 2011

One other item, I haven't seen mentioned yet, it was a factor when I chose to use the QO series in my shop: Look at how the breakers attach to the bus-bar.

The QO series have plates that "clamp" on a round surface. The Homeline series "pinches" on a flat "fin". For high-amp/high duty cycle items like compressors, heaters, etc. Over time I was told that the Homeline series after repeated cycles of heating/cooling have issues where they don't "pinch" as well.

Not entirely sure it's a real-world issue, but looking at the mechanical aspects of the two, it makes sense.

TWX · Nov 8, 2011

mebedave said:
I was in depot and the box for the QD says copper buss, so I opened the box...NO COPPER. Then I opened the box for the Homeline, good quality ! The only thing I saw difference wise (moreless)was the breakers them self's. The QD's are rated for a little larger wire size (one size larger)and a little red flag do-ma-jig that lets you see much easier which breaker is tripped. The QD breakers are two times the price I went with Homeline,not yet installed.I went with the full 40 space 200amp,I like the full size panel for the room and everyone can use a few more inches

Alchymist said:
I suspect you were seeing plated copper. Copper in the raw tends to tarnish, so the bus bars are plated.

It's similar to a soldering iron. They're often tinned or plated copper. I didn't know that until a few weeks ago when a buddy of mine helped diagnose a malfunctioning tip on one of my irons. I wirewheeled the coating off and found a copper core. Didn't surprise him, but it sure did me...

climbabout · Nov 8, 2011

ishiboo said:
I believe the "quick open" feature is only on 15 and 20A breakers, and I don't believe that QO stands for quick open, though it may.

I'm surprised you are not aware that the Homeline and QO breakers are one and the same, at least for recent times. They will have the same trip curves and performance characteristics. I believe that they used to be different, as I used to have better luck with the QO breakers. I've had many CH and Homeline breakers fail over the years, not particularly frequently, but it has happened. Only one QO failure, and most of my panels are QO.

Both QO, Homeline and CH are great products IMO. I prefer the QO, and then the Homeline due to the layout and features of each.

You can see here that QO stands for "qwik open" - always has:
http://products.schneider-electric....iature-circuit-breakers/qob-circuit-breakers/

The test I was refering to was done years ago before Homeline was introduced - the Homeline is a fine breaker, but the QO and it's load centers have superior features - many of which have already been pointed out in previous posts - ie - mounting etc. There is a reason that the QO and QOB are used extensively in industrial and commercial applications in their line of QO load centers and NQ panelboards.

Regarding the bussing - it is tin plated copper as noted on page 9 of this pdf link:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical Distribution/Load Centers/1100CT0501.pdf

Hope this clarifies things.
Tim

ixlr8 · Nov 8, 2011

TWX said:
I recommend getting a quote on them installing a panel that you supply too. I don't remember smaller Homeline panels being that much cheaper, equivalent spacing percentage wise, to QO panels. Sounds like someone might be milking it a little.

As "mebedave" mentioned, the difference in cost of panels between HL and QO is not that much. It is the cost of the breakers themselves, QO is 2x HL, is where the costs add up. Especially when you are installing 38 spaces worth.

ixlr8 · Nov 8, 2011

From the quoted Schneider links;

QO® and Homeline® Load Centers and Enclosures
Product Description

• Aluminum bus construction on fixed mains panels

• Shielded one-piece plated copper bus construction on convertible mains panels, an industry exclusive for protection and performance

What is the difference between a fixed mains panel and a convertible mains panel? As it seems to matter whether the bus is Aluminum or plated Copper.

climbabout · Nov 8, 2011

ixlr8 said:
From the quoted Schneider links;

QO® and Homeline® Load Centers and Enclosures
Product Description

• Aluminum bus construction on fixed mains panels

• Shielded one-piece plated copper bus construction on convertible mains panels, an industry exclusive for protection and performance

What is the difference between a fixed mains panel and a convertible mains panel? As it seems to matter whether the bus is Aluminum or plated Copper.

A fixed main panel cannot be changed from main breaker to main lug or vice versa.

A convertible mains panel can be converted from one to the other in the field. For a distributor or contractor it means great flexibility. If you bought a main lug panel and later found that you needed to put a main breaker in it, you can just remove the lugs, and a main breaker will bolt on to the studs that previously held the lugs. There would also be a corresponding knockout in the cover to accept the handle for the main breaker. All of the 12 through 42 circuit single phase load centers that we stock have this capability and thus have the tin plated copper bus.

An example of a fixed main panel would be the smaller 2 or say 6 circuit main lug panels - the lugs on those are fixed and cannot be converted to main breaker.

Tim

mebedave · Nov 8, 2011

Alchymist said:
I suspect you were seeing plated copper. Copper in the raw tends to tarnish, so the bus bars are plated.

you may be right

Square D breakers- Homeline vs QO

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