Air Piping System

bgott · Dec 9, 2011

http://www.vehicleservicepros.com/video/10457801/atlas-copco-airnet-challenge

I bet this system isn't cheap. But it looks like it would be quick and easy to install.

StaggeringGoat · Dec 9, 2011

I'd take copper over that any day.

Shadowdog500 · Dec 9, 2011

Yes it does look "quick and easy".

Don't know if "quick and easy" would be the deciding factor on what system I installed.

I vote for black iron.

Chris

gatchel · Dec 9, 2011

I just installed a rapidair system. I'll never install another iron or copper pipe system in a residential garage/shop again. The Atlas Copco system looks like more of a commercial system but I would definitely use it.

It's only time before someone chimes in with how great their PVC system is. :lol_hitti

Torque1st · Dec 9, 2011

The problem with any of those specialized systems is getting repair and expansion parts down the road. Galvanized steel pipe is my favorite although 'black' pipe is the product most listed in mechanical standards for compressed air systems. Rising labor costs have brought about some of the specialized systems by offsetting higher material costs with labor savings. Unless someone contracts out the job labor savings are usually moot for a home shop.

Steevo · Dec 10, 2011

I priced out using AirNet piping and components vs using black pipe for my shop. I really wanted to use the AirNet, but it was more than twice the price for the same runs, elbows, T's, etc.
I couldn't justify it (or afford it).

FFPL · Dec 10, 2011

I bought my aluminum infinity system with nickel plated brass fittings (no plastic) from pattons (http://www.pattonsinc.com/piping/piping.html). Was easy to install, 0 leaks and looks really good. I would definitely go this route again if I was doing this again.

Carl B · Dec 10, 2011

StaggeringGoat said:
I'd take copper over that any day.

Copper today is FAR too expensive for me - and most of the time I really don't care much about the cost of my projects ... I just don't like feeling like I'm getting screwed! $3.79 for a 1/2" copper elbow... I mean give me a break!!

I used Parker PushLoc tubing and fittings - cost was perhaps twice that of black iron - but then ease of installation and time saved were well worth it to me.

FWIW,
Carl B.

gixer007 · Dec 20, 2011

I used to work for Pattons.
You dont want to know the mark up on that.
They are making a killing. The problem is trying to chase down leaks and take it apart later. Not as easy as they make it seem.
We did a huge job and spent a week chasing down leaks. Just as bad as black iron I would say and so would the techs.

FFPL said:
I bought my aluminum infinity system with nickel plated brass fittings (no plastic) from pattons (http://www.pattonsinc.com/piping/piping.html). Was easy to install, 0 leaks and looks really good. I would definitely go this route again if I was doing this again.

sberry · Dec 20, 2011

Many of the home shops get way more convoluted than they need to be and if a guy is happy thats fine but I am with Torque here to some extent, hard to beat the simple of steel screwed piping in most cases, easy to change without stocking unusual parts etc.

Mmfh · Dec 20, 2011

FFPL said:
I bought my aluminum infinity system with nickel plated brass fittings (no plastic) from pattons (http://www.pattonsinc.com/piping/piping.html). Was easy to install, 0 leaks and looks really good. I would definitely go this route again if I was doing this again.

That looks like one hell of a compressor! What is that, what do you use it for?

Al Bundy · Dec 20, 2011

One thing nobody ever talks about is air temperature. You can't effectively remove moisture from warm air. Usually about 25' of black pipe will do the trick. I'm guessing it would take quite a run of this stuff before the air cools significantly. That's also one of the drawbacks of using copper. It doesn't take long for a thin walled copper pipe to warm up to the temperature of the air being piped through it.

StaggeringGoat · Dec 20, 2011

Carl B said:
Copper today is FAR too expensive for me - and most of the time I really don't care much about the cost of my projects ... I just don't like feeling like I'm getting screwed! $3.79 for a 1/2" copper elbow... I mean give me a break!!

Where the hell are you shopping? Copper elbows are about $0.50-$1.50.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...Id=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202904883
(10 pack)

Al Bundy said:
That's also one of the drawbacks of using copper. It doesn't take long for a thin walled copper pipe to warm up to the temperature of the air being piped through it.

And it doesn't take long for the heat transfer properties of copper cool it back off again. Why do you think heat sinks are always made out of copper/aluminum and never steel? Once your black pipe gets hot, it stays hot.

Al Bundy · Dec 21, 2011

StaggeringGoat said:
And it doesn't take long for the heat transfer properties of copper cool it back off again. Why do you think heat sinks are always made out of copper/aluminum and never steel? Once your black pipe gets hot, it stays hot.

Yes I agree the copper will cool faster. But in this particular application I prefer the material that won't heat up in the first place.

I know a couple guys that have used copper for their air lines and haven't had any problems. But I have never seen anyone aside from a handful of GJ posters recommend copper for air lines. Every compressor manufacturer that I have seen and every company that handles industrial materials for air systems all recommend black pipe. I'm not interested in starting a debate on the subject, I am merely posting the information I found after doing some fairly extensive research on the topic. If you choose not to believe it that's up to you.

Air_Cooled_Nut · Dec 21, 2011

I like these threads because of the options and experiences that are available to me. I need to plumb a system some day and this is all good info. Some people don't trust new technologies and opt for the traditional stuff. Cool. I'm leaning away from an iron/galvanized piping system so I like seeing this more modular type systems.

About stuff being marked up...uhm...how to say this politely...really? Unless you're buying directly from the manufacturer before they mark it up for their profit margin of COURSE there's gonna be a higher price.

ptschram · Dec 21, 2011

Air_Cooled_Nut said:
About stuff being marked up...uhm...how to say this politely...really? Unless you're buying directly from the manufacturer before they mark it up for their profit margin of COURSE there's gonna be a higher price.

We all gotta eat!

FFPL-that looks like your filter is hard-plumbed to your compressor. I think I'd like some more vibration/strain relief than that. How is it plumbed?

lacewood · Dec 21, 2011

I installed something very similar in my cabinet shop, called trans-air....have approx 500 LF of trunk line installed with multiple drops and used the compression type plastic fittings..push them on and tighten.

It worked out perfect for me, has been installed for 7 years almost to the day with a 50HP Atlas screw running 10 hours a day without much trouble...there has been a handful of times where there is a slight leak in a elbow or coupling, nothing that a quick climb on the ladder and twist didn't fix though.

I like the fact that it is easy to add a drop anywhere you need it, as the shop has grown and we added more machines or bench space and needed air drops it is very easy to either shut down the system or the loop that you want to add on to and drill a hole in the side of the trunk line and put a drop leg in...takes minutes

In my last shop I did it all with copper, it certainly did the job but was much more labor intensive and not anywhere near as easy to modify as the aluminum piping.....and was more $$

padstack · Dec 21, 2011

Al Bundy said:
Yes I agree the copper will cool faster. But in this particular application I prefer the material that won't heat up in the first place.

That's why I love good ol' PVC.

:lol_hitti

(c'mon, what's an "air line" thread w/o PVC? Haha!)

Air_Cooled_Nut · Dec 21, 2011

lacewood said:
...
In my last shop I did it all with copper, it certainly did the job but was much more labor intensive and not anywhere near as easy to modify as the aluminum piping.....and was more $$

But a system like that could look damn good! You know how some people detail the space with paint, like a logo and/or color scheme, or get artsy with corrugated paneling or pine lumber? A raw-look copper plumbing would look pretty snazzy, artistic AND functional.

If cost weren't the issue, of course :thumbup:

Carl B · Dec 21, 2011

StaggeringGoat said:
Where the hell are you shopping? Copper elbows are about $0.50-$1.50.

My mistake.. Pulled that off the top of my head. I was buying 3/4" like these..
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Had to make a 180 degree turn for a fuel tank vent. I went to ACE, but they may very well have been about the same price there. I have made the same custom part for the same type of car for over 30 years now. These 90 elbows used to be closer to $0.45 the last time... I was shocked this time.

For that matter there were very few copper fitting on the shelves from which to select - all the shelf space was taken up by PVC or Copper to PVC fittings.

On Top of that - all this copper seems to be comming from China now - and my older 3/4" pipe stock - didn't really fit in these new fittings..

FWIW,
Carl B.

1320stang · Dec 22, 2011

Carl, those are Street Ells.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

StaggeringGoat · Dec 22, 2011

Air_Cooled_Nut said:
But a system like that could look damn good! You know how some people detail the space with paint, like a logo and/or color scheme, or get artsy with corrugated paneling or pine lumber? A raw-look copper plumbing would look pretty snazzy, artistic AND functional.

If cost weren't the issue, of course

I do love the look of exposed copper pipes. There really isn't much cost difference between steel and copper, both run slightly over $1/foot. I would choose copper simply because it's a thousand times easier to join than steel...

As far as I'm concerned the heating/cooling effects of your pipe is a moot point unless you're a painter. In fact I used to know a painter that loved to use PVC pipe and and old insulated water heater tank for his air system. It looked like **** and I was scared to be near it but he did some killer $10,000 paint jobs...

Personally I will be stringing my ceiling with PEX for distribution and running 10' copper drops.

FFPL · Dec 22, 2011

gixer007 said:
I used to work for Pattons.
You dont want to know the mark up on that.
They are making a killing. The problem is trying to chase down leaks and take it apart later. Not as easy as they make it seem.
We did a huge job and spent a week chasing down leaks. Just as bad as black iron I would say and so would the techs.

I think I pay markup on everything I buy but it didn't seem too bad to me. I've had no issues and it seemed very simple to install and I haven't had any leaks. I cannot image it would be difficult to track them down anyway. Maybe you just needed better techs ?

ptschram said:
We all gotta eat!

FFPL-that looks like your filter is hard-plumbed to your compressor. I think I'd like some more vibration/strain relief than that. How is it plumbed?

I was a little concerned as well and was going to mount it separately but the manufacturer confirmed it was ok as I did it.

gixer007 · Dec 22, 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gixer007
I used to work for Pattons.
You dont want to know the mark up on that.
They are making a killing. The problem is trying to chase down leaks and take it apart later. Not as easy as they make it seem.
We did a huge job and spent a week chasing down leaks. Just as bad as black iron I would say and so would the techs.

I think I pay markup on everything I buy but it didn't seem too bad to me. I've had no issues and it seemed very simple to install and I haven't had any leaks. I cannot image it would be difficult to track them down anyway. Maybe you just needed better techs ?

Yeah I know there is mark up on every thing. They just tend to go crazy on the piping. Glad you are happy with what you paid.
They might need better techs but they also do huge huge jobs that make a garage look like nothing so there is much more to deal with.

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