why industrial(black oxide)

Hank McMauser · Dec 15, 2011

why do the industrial lines of tools come in black oxide finishes? is there an advantage over regular chrome?(food industry maybe?I'm curious as to why)
I live in Idaho so they'll probablly never rust even if only occasionally wiped with rust preventer& not left outside exposed to the elements for long periods of time. :bounce:

I have an old 12" crescent that is probably 40 or 50 yrs old maybe more & it has a nice patina on ity it was originally my Grandfathers who was an electrician in WV coal mine then my Dad's who worked for thew Ohio Turnpike as a mechanic/maintenance guy. now it's mine & only sees occasional use.

greasemonkey44 · Dec 15, 2011

i think its so flaked off chrome doesnt drop into important parts or bearings

ranger302 · Dec 15, 2011

Plus it looks ****

diesel research · Dec 15, 2011

I am pretty sure it's so you can drop them in a dark engine bay and never find them again.

ptschram · Dec 15, 2011

greasemonkey44 said:
i think its so flaked off chrome doesnt drop into important parts or bearings

FOD-Foreign Object Debris control.

Wakefield · Dec 15, 2011

So people don't steal them? (Actually the fear that chrome might flake off and contaminate something might make sense)

Some people might mistake them all for being impact

dankeenan · Dec 15, 2011

It cost next to nothing compared to chrome.

kv501 · Dec 15, 2011

1. Cheaper
2. Scuffed-up black oxide doesn't look as bad as scuffed up chrome
3. Cheaper
4. Cheaper
5. Cheaper

Industrial finish is marketing speak for "a cheaper version of our wrench because we don't put chrome on it."

Think what you want but don't let anybody ******** you about advantages (in function, anyway). That way tool companies can sell you a cheaper tool when you wouldn't have otherwise paid for a more expensive chrome one. They make you feel better because then you can tell your buddies "it's an 'industrial' tool!" instead of, "I couldn't afford a Snap On."

"Industrial finish" is at the same ******** level as "Aircraft aluminum" or "Tactical."

A spade is a spade. :beer:

Theo · Dec 15, 2011

Chrysler Assembly Plants actually have a policy that states all tools much be black oxide. It was explained to me that this was to prevent FOD, and also for employee safety (prevent cuts from flaking chrome)

Fortunately the TMS guys that ordered tools knew this was a bogus policy. Many of the tools required in the plants are not available in black oxide.

Another policy they made me aware of was they couldn't accept gifts that did not have a company logo on them. The spirit of the rule was to eliminate cash bribes or gifts with significant value. So I could give them Snap-on jacket, but I couldn't give them an unbranded leather jacket. I just gave the guys something with a Johnny Walker logo on it and they were happy!

HandyManny · Dec 15, 2011

They say it's because some places or applications don't want chrome to flake off and contaminate anything. I don't know about that. But that' what they say.

One of my sets of combo wrenches and all my old Diamond Calk adjustable wrenches are (were) back oxide finished when new. It is less expensive to buy than chrome. The down side is that black oxide tools do tend to blend in under the hood and can get left behind much easier (chrome'd tools stands out much better in an engine compartment)

Black Oxide is simply a form of controlled rusting just like gun bluing. It's an oxide finish that wear off with time and usage. All the black tools I bought decades ago now have a darker grayish patina to them with thin remaining black oxide to the surface, but those tools have seen lot's of useage. I suppose they will rust if neglected in a very humid or salt water climate, but I've never noticed any red rusting on my tools. That graying patina is likely just a result of the oxide finish wearing thin and aging, because the polished faces on my adjustable wrenches is still whiter than the main body of the wrenches, not as bright as when new, but still in the white.

shampoop · Dec 15, 2011

If a tool is going to be abused it's much better. Like impact sockets. Chrome sockets would get damaged and start to flake, when you damage industrial finish it doesn't flake and corrode, it stays smooth.

msnow · Dec 15, 2011

diesel research said:
I am pretty sure it's so you can drop them in a dark engine bay and never find them again.

What he said, except for me its a dark theatre but same difference.

HandyManny · Dec 15, 2011

shampoop said:
If a tool is going to be abused it's much better. Like impact sockets. Chrome sockets would get damaged and start to flake, when you damage industrial finish it doesn't flake and corrode, it stays smooth.

Generally speaking, high quality chrome plating doesn't flake even with abused or hard use. I've seen high quality plating on tool where the tool handle bent or twisted due to extream force and the chrome plating seemed to actually move with the tool without flaking (slight cracking could be seen, but no flaking).

Chrome plating as done by Danaher seems to peel and flake by simply looking at it.

pipsters · Dec 15, 2011

HandyManny said:
Generally speaking, high quality chrome plating doesn't flake even with abused or hard use. I've seen high quality plating on tool where the tool handle bent or twisted due to extream force and the chrome plating seemed to actually move with the tool without flaking (slight cracking could be seen, but no flaking).

Chrome plating as done by Danaher seems to peel and flake by simply looking at it.

Danaher's Chinese/Taiwanese stuff is actually really good. I have beat on Gearwrenches with hammers trying to get the open end on to something and they don't even have a dent. I was impressed to say the least.

I would actually be OK with a socket made in the US but chromed overseas, just to have access to the high quality chroming processes they use over there.

Lomotil · Dec 15, 2011

I'm a big fan of Proto, and prefer the black oxide finish on ratchets over their chrome counterparts. It's mainly because the chrome finish is a bit more slippery when your hands are oily, compared to the black ones. Comparing the "-BL" series of ratchet handles to the chrome is like opening a stuck jar lid with a rubber glove instead of a soapy hand.

****** simile, but it's the best I could come up with until the Mountain Dew kicks in.

ears · Dec 15, 2011

HandyManny said:
Generally speaking, high quality chrome plating doesn't flake even with abused or hard use. I've seen high quality plating on tool where the tool handle bent or twisted due to extream force and the chrome plating seemed to actually move with the tool without flaking (slight cracking could be seen, but no flaking).

Chrome plating as done by Danaher seems to peel and flake by simply looking at it.

I've been to factory auctions where 90% of the chrome tools were chipped or flaking. The ind. finish tools were beat up but in much better shape

Andy Traxel · Dec 15, 2011

I read somewhere that the black oxide finish on "industrial" tools is to battle the human version of what was called Crow's Syndrome.

The story was that real crows will swoop down out of the air and grab shiny things. The black industrial tool idea is to avoid having industrial tools (likely owned by the employer or job site) attract the attention of by-passers/spectators and disappear. Inside as well as out.

I'm no metallurgist or plating engineer. But I wonder if the absence of chrome plating on impact sockets has something do do with the stiffness. Are impact sockets softer but stronger to handle fatigue? But that chrome plating wouldn't stand up to that indefinitely so impact sockets are unplated?

Andy

mark40sw · Dec 15, 2011

Andy Traxel said:
I read somewhere that the black oxide finish on "industrial" tools is to battle the human version of what was called Crow's Syndrome.

The story was that real crows will swoop down out of the air and grab shiny things. The black industrial tool idea is to avoid having industrial tools (likely owned by the employer or job site) attract the attention of by-passers/spectators and disappear. Inside as well as out.

Andy

Yep....... shiney things grow legs

slipjointed · Dec 15, 2011

I can say 100% that part of the reason is due to chrome flake contamination. If you don't believe me, try and carry a bag full of chromed tools past a clean room supervisor, and see what he says.

Even with very high quality tools, the chrome will wear and flake from the inside of the driving surfaces. That chrome then becomes a contaminant that can wreak all kinds of havoc, especially since it's electrically conductive. It can screw with semiconductor manufacting equipment, it can cause electronics to blow, it can contaminate food production lines... there's all kinds of reasons for not having chrome in an industrial environment.

G1GRANDEUR · Dec 15, 2011

Yes, mainly safety reasons.

HandyManny · Dec 15, 2011

Andy Traxel said:
I read somewhere that the black oxide finish on "industrial" tools is to battle the human version of what was called Crow's Syndrome.

The story was that real crows will swoop down out of the air and grab shiny things. The black industrial tool idea is to avoid having industrial tools (likely owned by the employer or job site) attract the attention of by-passers/spectators and disappear. Inside as well as out.

I'm no metallurgist or plating engineer. But I wonder if the absence of chrome plating on impact sockets has something do do with the stiffness. Are impact sockets softer but stronger to handle fatigue? But that chrome plating wouldn't stand up to that indefinitely so impact sockets are unplated?

Andy

I think that syndrome for shinny things applies more to fish

And no, impact tools are NOT softer, actually they are tougher and stronger than non-impacts, but the big difference is that they are are heat-treated differently and use steel that has characteristics that should perform better under high speed, high hammering, and high torque conditions. Impacts tools are simply more maleable, meaning when they reach their threshold of limitations they deform rather than break, crack, split, or shatter like hand sockets can do when they go past their limitations. Sockets, extentions, etc that are intended for hand-use are very strong, but also brittle, they will snap, or split when you take them past their strength threshold and when taken past their limitations on impact drivers they can shatter like a hand grenade supposedly.

Also keep in mind that there are lots of black-oxide sockets that are not impact tools and many high-end manufacturers will stamp "For Hand Use Only" on the tools. So not all non-impact stuff is chrome'd.

ChrisF250 · Dec 15, 2011

kv501 said:
1. Cheaper
2. Scuffed-up black oxide doesn't look as bad as scuffed up chrome
3. Cheaper
4. Cheaper
5. Cheaper

Industrial finish is marketing speak for "a cheaper version of our wrench because we don't put chrome on it."

Think what you want but don't let anybody ******** you about advantages (in function, anyway). That way tool companies can sell you a cheaper tool when you wouldn't have otherwise paid for a more expensive chrome one. They make you feel better because then you can tell your buddies "it's an 'industrial' tool!" instead of, "I couldn't afford a Snap On."

"Industrial finish" is at the same ******** level as "Aircraft aluminum" or "Tactical."

A spade is a spade.

From snap ons website

oex707b-183.95
goex707b-173.67

Little more than 1$ per wrench extra for chrome.

HandyManny · Dec 15, 2011

ChrisF250 said:
From snap ons website

oex707b-183.95
goex707b-173.67

Little more than 1$ per wrench extra for chrome.

Yeah but it's Snap-On. They're going to charge 100X as much for a stick of gum. Why would they sell their non-chrome tools any cheaper?

PowerGenGuy · Dec 15, 2011

Do any of you use the the industrial finish just because you like them better? I don't want to change this thread too much, but why industrial finish? Anybody just cause you like them?

youtanut · Dec 15, 2011

I bought the goex in standard and oex in metric just so eaiser on the clean up and put away. But I must say I love my goex (black industrial) they are not as slippery when greasy. And yes easy to leave behind, but I like to clean up the tools after each job and each one has its on home, so easy to tell if one is missing.

mdnelson86 · Dec 15, 2011

Maybe it's just me but I can't stand the "industrial" finish. My biggest issue is I have a set of craftsman industrial finish adjustable wrenches that started rusting badly within a month. A lot of my tools spend a fair amount of time in a toolbox outdoors and I'm very disappointed that the black oxide finish doesn't hold up at all in these conditions. I've always preferred chrome anyway if you keep it clean (which I always clean my tools after using them)

Charles (in GA) · Dec 15, 2011

From an environmental standpoint chrome is a real problem for manufacturers. Lots of really bad pollutants, big hassles from the EPA. That is why the chrome on USA made stuff is so poor, and why the chrome on Harbor Freight wrenches from China is so nice, no EPA, no strict rules, pollute all you want in China. The crackdown is starting over there however, and look for quality of many things from China to begin to suffer as a result.

Charles

shampoop · Dec 15, 2011

mdnelson86 said:
Maybe it's just me but I can't stand the "industrial" finish. My biggest issue is I have a set of craftsman industrial finish adjustable wrenches that started rusting badly within a month. A lot of my tools spend a fair amount of time in a toolbox outdoors and I'm very disappointed that the black oxide finish doesn't hold up at all in these conditions. I've always preferred chrome anyway if you keep it clean (which I always clean my tools after using them)

Industrial finish stuff is usually used by pros. Most pros don't clean their sockets, you do something along the lines of wiping it off, I prefer to spray a rag with wd40 and wipe down everything. When they're used often, kept at least lightly oiled and not in super humid conditions, they will never rust. For the average home user, especially if you don't use air tools, chrome is definitely the best.

I prefer industrial finish for sockets/extensions. You never have to worry about the finish as long as you don't leave them in a rust prone environment forever. For pliers and other tools I prefer chrome. I'm not sure about ratchets as I've never had an industrial finish ratchet.

geologist · Dec 15, 2011

If the finish is properly applied, black oxide resists rusting better than chrome in damp and salty environments. The key is to hot oil treat them before putting them to use. All of the black oxide tools I've used in oilfield and exploration services held up much better than their chromed counterparts. Black oxide is just rust that has been boiled and then (usually) oil treated. The key is repetition and properly carding the converted rust. If you do that, you'll protect the entire surface and it wont rust further unless you scratch off the finish. Basically, you can't rust what has already been rusted. The black oxide is simply a protective shell of sorts. Nothing more than stabilized rust. Almost any gunsmith will tell you that a slow rust blue (black oxide) is superior to any other finish (except for maybe Parkerized). Got a rusty black oxide wrench? Boil it for 20 or 30 minutes, then card off the excess converted rust with oiled 0000 steel wool. Hot oil treat them and you're good to go.

893cv · Dec 16, 2011

Black oxide tools are required when working on a gas turbine. Some of the internal bits corrode and fail if they are exposed chrome plated tools. $20,000 worth of traceable certified black oxide tools (snap on) are cheep when they used on a $5,000,000 (small) turbine.

Kestas · Dec 16, 2011

One little-known phenomenon with quench and tempered steels (i.e., tools) is that they can suffer from hydrogen embrittlement after plating. If a plater doesn't properly bake the steel after plating, the hydrogen can embrittle the part under load. Black oxide - a steam treating process - doesn't have this problem.

HandyManny · Dec 16, 2011

PowerGenGuy said:
Do any of you use the the industrial finish just because you like them better? I don't want to change this thread too much, but why industrial finish? Anybody just cause you like them?

Way back when I bought mine I bought them for two reasons, because they were less expensive at the time and I actually liked the looks of the black oxide finished adjustable wrenches. I still prefere a black adjustable wrench, but have long ago changed my preference for other tools to be chrome simply because they are easier to see visually when working under a hood or cowling.

HandyManny · Dec 16, 2011

mdnelson86 said:
Maybe it's just me but I can't stand the "industrial" finish. My biggest issue is I have a set of craftsman industrial finish adjustable wrenches that started rusting badly within a month. A lot of my tools spend a fair amount of time in a toolbox outdoors and I'm very disappointed that the black oxide finish doesn't hold up at all in these conditions. I've always preferred chrome anyway if you keep it clean (which I always clean my tools after using them)

I suppose in a real humid salt water climate that can happen, but none of mine have ever done that, even when stored in my cold damp garage in the pacific northwest for a few years.

But I've also seen oil rig black finished tools used offshore that also never rusted very badly.

WHT · Dec 16, 2011

HandyManny said:
I think that syndrome for shinny things applies more to fish

And no, impact tools are NOT softer, actually they are tougher and stronger than non-impacts, but the big difference is that they are are heat-treated differently and use steel that has characteristics that should perform better under high speed, high hammering, and high torque conditions. Impacts tools are simply more maleable, meaning when they reach their threshold of limitations they deform rather than break, crack, split, or shatter like hand sockets can do when they go past their limitations.

Actually, impact sockets are "softer" than conventional sockets. That is why they are thicker, tougher, but also more malleable and show more wear:

"Hand sockets (conventional chrome) are heat treated to a comparatively higher hardness for high strength and more wear resistance than impact sockets. But, they are manufactured to sustain hand applied torque only. In other words, they are not designed for use on impact guns, and should never be used on them."

"Impact sockets are made from softer steel (different heat treatment). The softer steel will deform under high pressure instead of shattering like regular chrome sockets that are produced using higher heat treatments and are harder and more brittle."

HandyManny · Dec 16, 2011

WHT said:
Actually, impact sockets are "softer" than conventional sockets. That is why they are thicker, tougher, but also more malleable and show more wear:

"Hand sockets (conventional chrome) are heat treated to a comparatively higher hardness for high strength and more wear resistance than impact sockets. But, they are manufactured to sustain hand applied torque only. In other words, they are not designed for use on impact guns, and should never be used on them."

"Impact sockets are made from softer steel (different heat treatment). The softer steel will deform under high pressure instead of shattering like regular chrome sockets that are produced using higher heat treatments and are harder and more brittle."

Stronger and tougher would be a better way to describe impacts. But there is no way they can be "softer" or they'd never be able to withstand the daily high hammering or high speed torque delivered to them with impact guns. True that impacts do wear more, but keep in mind the stresses these things undergo under use. They are thicker than standard sockets, but not all that much thicker. Wikipedia didn't quite get it right in their article this time around. They sometimes offer half baked information anyway. Maleable doen't nesesarily translate into "soft", it just means not brittle, meaning that when it's failure point is reached it responds differently, in this case they deform rather than shatter.

Also keep in mind that there are plenty of black-oxide hand tools that are not impact tools. Black non chrome doesn not always indicate that a socket is an impact socket.

sk farmer · Dec 16, 2011

i think the term softer is somewhat relative. impact sockets are not soft per say but are for a lack of a better word possibly more flexible, making them better suited to impact tools. we ll know that some type of metal are very brittle and prone to chipping while others will mushroom easier. there is no doubt that impact and hand sockets need to be designed differant for the differant types of stress they see.

rwhite692 · Dec 16, 2011

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/1001_hbkp_impact_vs_chrome_sockets/index.html

"One difference you can't see between these two different types of sockets has to do with the way each has been heat treated and/or the composition of the metal used. The impact socket made out of medium carbon alloy steel is heat treated to a low hardness range which has been optimized for impact use. This means that under heavy, continuous use, an impact socket will withstand the impact blows and will wear rather than break.

Hand sockets are made of medium carbon alloy steel heat treated to a hardness range commensurate with their size and configuration. Hand sockets are heat treated to a comparatively higher hardness for high strength and more wear resistance than impact sockets. But, they are made to sustain hand applied torque applications only. In other words, they are not designed for use on impact guns, and should never be used on them."

Read more: http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/1001_hbkp_impact_vs_chrome_sockets/index.html#ixzz1gjIeamr3

HandyManny · Dec 16, 2011

rwhite692 said:
http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/1001_hbkp_impact_vs_chrome_sockets/index.html

"One difference you can't see between these two different types of sockets has to do with the way each has been heat treated and/or the composition of the metal used. The impact socket made out of medium carbon alloy steel is heat treated to a low hardness range which has been optimized for impact use. This means that under heavy, continuous use, an impact socket will withstand the impact blows and will wear rather than break.

Hand sockets are made of medium carbon alloy steel heat treated to a hardness range commensurate with their size and configuration. Hand sockets are heat treated to a comparatively higher hardness for high strength and more wear resistance than impact sockets. But, they are made to sustain hand applied torque applications only. In other words, they are not designed for use on impact guns, and should never be used on them."

Read more: http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/1001_hbkp_impact_vs_chrome_sockets/index.html#ixzz1gjIeamr3

So it's been stated here twice by two different members refereing to a source that says convensional sockets should not be used on impact guns. I'm assuming it's due to the fact that they cannot withstand those rigors that an impact socket can. So with that said, which one do you think is the Mack Daddy of them all as far as strength and durability? My vote would be for the impact sockets.

Anyway I think this thread was about black-oxide industrial finished tools, not impacts. I'll get back on topic.

Graymills - Craig · Dec 16, 2011

One side note. Chrome plating is becoming harder and harder to do, due to environmental regs. Even if FOD weren't an issue, it's going away.

HandyManny · Dec 16, 2011

Graymills - Craig said:
One side note. Chrome plating is becoming harder and harder to do, due to environmental regs. Even if FOD weren't an issue, it's going away.

That is very true. In facts some companies like Wilde and Channellock did away with chrome plating on it's products a long time ago, years ago. Personally I don't think chrome is all that nessesary, but it does make a tool stand out when working on things like and engine. I notice a lot of newer tools are starting to have a black laquer coating applied at the factory.

why industrial(black oxide)

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