EXTREMELY disappointed in Starrett today.

MD11 · Feb 7, 2012

So I've been buying quite a bit of Starrett lately, and dodging the "Made in China" minefield, as they do have a lower cost line of Calipers that are made in China. However, today I got my new set of toolmakers squares ( http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002C0UJ0W/?tag=atomicindus08-20 ) which I just ASSumed would be US made at over $600 retail for 4 squares, but when it came, I noticed there was no inspection certificate in the box, and then there were the dreaded words on the side label (very discreetly written in subdued text).. "CHINA"

Now, don't get me wrong.. I don't like made in China on principal, and generally avoid it like the plague, however at $600+ for this set, I didn't expect to have to worry about this. I would not be so upset if it was $150 or even $200... but 6??

I sent it back right away and sent off a nasty email to Starrett..

Stuey · Feb 7, 2012

Is it possible that the set was swapped?

Could you maybe take a photo before you ship it back?

Addrock · Feb 7, 2012

Unacceptable, profit without quality. Well done we can't reward namebadging with US made premiums.

Trucky · Feb 7, 2012

Contact Starrett about it. I like to think they have fantastic customer service. I'm sure they'll set things straight. Return them if you want and grab some Mitutoyo's. Those are my #1 and #2 companies for machinist tools. If I can't get made in USA Starrett, I go right to Mitzys.

Mcmaster-carr sells the Starrett ones as well. Says made in USA right on the website. Give them a call.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#starrett-squares/=g5gzy8

bottom of the page.

MD11 · Feb 7, 2012

Stuey said:
Is it possible that the set was swapped?

Could you maybe take a photo before you ship it back?

no, it's not even worth the effort. There is no inspection certificate (as with all US Made Starrett), and there was no USA on any of the squares as with my older ones.

They are now at the UPS store waiting return.

I'm so angry!

and I think I feel lied to.

bobcatdan · Feb 7, 2012

I see they got one star rating from a guy in Portland who said the same thing. I would talk to starrett dealer or call starret direct to see if their are USA made version.

Stuey · Feb 7, 2012

Trucky said:
Contact Starrett about it. I like to think they have fantastic customer service. I'm sure they'll set things straight. Return them if you want and grab some Mitutoyo's. Those are my #1 and #2 companies for machinist tools. If I can't get made in USA Starrett, I go right to Mitzys.

Mcmaster-carr sells the Starrett ones as well. Says made in USA right on the website. Give them a call.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#starrett-squares/=g5gzy8

bottom of the page.

+1, I rarely have problems with Mitutoyo. Although, I did order 2 pairs of dividers via Amazon and they were both lousy.

MD11 said:
no, it's not even worth the effort. There is no inspection certificate (as with all US Made Starrett), and there was no USA on any of the squares as with my older ones.

They are now at the UPS store waiting return.

I'm so angry! and I think I feel lied to.

So the package said made in China, the squares had no COO, and there was no inspection certificate?

Was the package wrapped with plastic to indicate it was new? Although if the packaging said made in China, that's a pretty clear message.

Trucky · Feb 7, 2012

MD11 said:
no, it's not even worth the effort. There is no inspection certificate (as with all US Made Starrett), and there was no USA on any of the squares as with my older ones.

They are now at the UPS store waiting return.

I'm so angry! and I think I feel lied to.

I know what you mean. I hate ordering precision tools and parts that I believe are made somewhere that I like (USA, Japan, Germany, etc.) but then it turns out they're made in China. Bleh. Just contact Starrett or go to the link I provided. They're usually pretty good at resolving issues like this.

I love getting a nice cert with tools, right with the inspectors name right on it. Just says quality to me.

bobcatdan said:
I see they got one star rating from a guy in Portland who said the same thing. I would talk to starrett dealer or call starret direct to see if their are USA made version.

I believe that was MD11's review

MD11 · Feb 7, 2012

Stuey said:
So the package said made in China, the squares had no COO, and there was no inspection certificate?

Was the package wrapped with plastic to indicate it was new? Although if the packaging said made in China, that's a pretty clear message.

it came in a similar type box to my 120A dial caliper, which is US Made, and had the same type sticker over the side of the box (that holds the red plastic box closed). The difference between the 120A box and this box was that the sticker on the 120A box has USA, and this has China... and the 120A box came inside another "Starrett" branded red paper/cardboard box that had the inspection certificate which also proudly stated "This tools is US Made"

Starrett needs to do like Snapon and put COO on their website.. this is disgraceful! I know on their Calipers, they do mention "US Made" in their product description since they now make a low cost Chinese version of most of their calipers, but this items makes no mention what so ever, and the price tells you a whole different story.

MD11 · Feb 7, 2012

Trucky said:
I know what you mean. I hate ordering precision tools and parts that I believe are made somewhere that I like (USA, Japan, Germany, etc.) but then it turns out they're made in China. Bleh. Just contact Starrett or go to the link I provided. They're usually pretty good at resolving issues like this.

I love getting a nice cert with tools, right with the inspectors name right on it. Just says quality to me.

I believe that was MD11's review

I will, and it was!

mrbreezeet1 · Feb 7, 2012

bobcatdan said:
I see they got one star rating from a guy in Portland who said the same thing. I would talk to starrett dealer or call starret direct to see if their are USA made version.

MD11
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Portland OR

MD11 · Feb 7, 2012

Trucky said:
Contact Starrett about it. I like to think they have fantastic customer service. I'm sure they'll set things straight. Return them if you want and grab some Mitutoyo's. Those are my #1 and #2 companies for machinist tools. If I can't get made in USA Starrett, I go right to Mitzys.

Mcmaster-carr sells the Starrett ones as well. Says made in USA right on the website. Give them a call.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#starrett-squares/=g5gzy8

bottom of the page.

so it appears the "Master" squares which cost about 2x as much are still US Made, but those are to .0001" tolerance. The .0002" tolerance "Tool Makers" squares that I got are Chinese... but the price is still WAY high for .0002"

Trucky · Feb 7, 2012

MD11 said:
so it appears the "Master" squares which cost about 2x as much are still US Made, but those are to .0001" tolerance. The .0002" tolerance "Tool Makers" squares that I got are Chinese... but the price is still WAY high for .0002"

Yeah, most if not all of their TOTL stuff is still made here. Obviously anything with a tenth max out of tol is going to cost a lot, but I have to agree that Starrett usually has pretty high prices for that. I resigned myself to buying Chinese 1-2-3 blocks after I saw how much a decent set of Starretts or B&S would cost. I checked the blocks myself with our CMM and they're within 2 tenths as well, so i consider it a good buy. I must admit, I've never run into a bad product from Starrett, but boy do you sure pay for it.

These might be a bit more in your price range

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pr...ayout-tools/hand-tools/ecatalog/N-96cZ1z0r4jp

Stuey · Feb 7, 2012

MD11 said:
it came in a similar type box to my 120A dial caliper, which is US Made, and had the same type sticker over the side of the box (that holds the red plastic box closed). The difference between the 120A box and this box was that the sticker on the 120A box has USA, and this has China... and the 120A box came inside another "Starrett" branded red paper/cardboard box that had the inspection certificate which also proudly stated "This tools is US Made"

Starrett needs to do like Snapon and put COO on their website.. this is disgraceful! I know on their Calipers, they do mention "US Made" in their product description since they now make a low cost Chinese version of most of their calipers, but this items makes no mention what so ever, and the price tells you a whole different story.

Yikes. I dropped an email to a Starrett marketing guy, but he may have left the company.

For $520 I would expect and demand a made-in-USA Starrett product.

MD11 said:
so it appears the "Master" squares which cost about 2x as much are still US Made, but those are to .0001" tolerance. The .0002" tolerance "Tool Makers" squares that I got are Chinese... but the price is still WAY high for .0002"

McMaster might not have updated their catalog. I've ordered parts from industrial suppliers that were wrongfully listed as made in USA.

MD11 · Feb 7, 2012

Trucky said:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/pr...ayout-tools/hand-tools/ecatalog/N-96cZ1z0r4jp

those Japanese or Chinese made, you know?

Trucky · Feb 7, 2012

MD11 said:
those Japanese or Chinese made, you know?

Grainger says USA, but you might want to call up Mitzy with the product numbers and ask them. I have a few products from them that are made here, so it wouldn't surprise me.

EDIT: Checked out the parts on the Mit website, looks like they're just regular squares. As in, the allowed range is +/- about a thou and maybe a few tenths. Not sure if that's accurate enough for your purposes. I prefer to have one master-grade in the tool room that I can just check parts with, but they might be good enough for you.

http://mitutoyo.com/TerminalMerchandisingGroup.aspx?group=1459

COO is unconfirmed for now. I'd email or call Mits if you really want to know.

SiGmA_X · Feb 7, 2012

I wonder if that reseller on Amazon is to blame.. Knock offs? Unlikely on Amazon tho, maybe production went over seas.. That means cost decreased 2-5x, right?

One thing, actually, after a little research... You saved about $815 going with the Amazon vs McMaster version... Squares are SPENDY!!! Dang! And also Hi PDX buddy!

Addrock said:
Unacceptable, profit without quality. Well done we can't reward namebadging with US made premiums.

+1!

MD11 · Feb 7, 2012

SiGmA_X said:
I wonder if that reseller on Amazon is to blame.. Knock offs? Unlikely on Amazon tho, maybe production went over seas.. That means cost decreased 2-5x, right?

One thing, actually, after a little research... You saved about $815 going with the Amazon vs McMaster version... Squares are SPENDY!!! Dang! And also Hi PDX buddy!+1!

well, US made Mitzy's are selling for less actually. The reason the one's he linked above are so expensive, apart from being US Made is they're accurate to .0001", which is amazingly accurate. The ones I bought were only .0002"

Trucky · Feb 7, 2012

Yeah, once you get to about a few tenths tol and under, things start to get prohibitively expensive. Making parts past that (tighter tolerances, .0001" and under) is very costly. Gage blocks, for example, are lapped to size and then individually measured and grouped together. Very few of them made are within the tightest specs (master set quality), which is why they cost so much. It's not a cheap process to have them treated and everything with no warping, and to get all the stresses removed. The TOTL starretts, chromium carbide IIRC, are many times as expensive as the regular sets. Which is why they're kept for calibration only usually

Don't want the new guys messing them up, lol.

SiGmA_X · Feb 7, 2012

MD11 said:
well, US made Mitzy's are selling for less actually. The reason the one's he linked above are so expensive, apart from being US Made is they're accurate to .0001", which is amazingly accurate. The ones I bought were only .0002"

True that. I'm a tard and didn't notice the accuracy. Its been a long day :shocking:

MD11 · Feb 7, 2012

SiGmA_X said:
True that. I'm a tard and didn't notice the accuracy. Its been a long day

naw.... you're from Portland OR... my new home town, can't be a tard!

MD11 · Feb 8, 2012

Expressed my anger with Starrett this AM... nice guy on the other end seemed very apologetic and said they recently removed COO off their website which has caused a lot of these type episodes.

I did find out that the 20 series squares are still US Made. I just ordered a 20-12, for $517 (almost the same price as the 3020 set of 4)... but at least I know this will be worth it.

I'm also ordering two Mitzy's from Grainger in 6" and 4" to go with it.

Davefr · Feb 8, 2012

Any reason you have to buy new?

The depreciation on precision machinists tools is huge. You have to be careful but you can buy good used Starrett, Brown and Sharpe, Mitutoyo for pennies on the dollar.

I just scored a Starrett Master Caliper for <$100 and it's undistinguishable from new at <20% of MSRP.

However I agree. I'd be pissed if I laid out that kind of money for China made product.

MD11 · Feb 8, 2012

For me new is a "known quantity" so to prevent possible headache I'll spend a premium.

Kev442 · Feb 8, 2012

I would worry more about how the metal performed over the long term as well as the tolerances. If there is one thing I've learned working with China as COO, they will promise a certain level of quality in plastics and metal, then cheat big time on it.
Supposed grade 8 bridge bolts being under grade 5 in reality being a good example.
I don't think $600 and China should ever be used in the same sentence!

MD11 · Feb 8, 2012

Kev442 said:
I would worry more about how the metal performed over the long term as well as the tolerances. If there is one thing I've learned working with China as COO, they will promise a certain level of quality in plastics and metal, then cheat big time on it.
Supposed grade 8 bridge bolts being under grade 5 in reality being a good example.
I don't think $600 and China should ever be used in the same sentence!

no worries at all... I KNOW Chinese steel is some of the worse in the world, and don't have to even bother with the risk. They're now showing back at the Amazon facility in Nevada! Good riddance!

MD11 · Feb 13, 2012

In the interest of those following this thread. I had a response from Starrett. The CEO himself no less and he gave their side to this. I shared with him my concerns in a response.

At least we know they're listening. Which is more than I can say for some others.

________________________________________

Dear Mr Xxxx,

Thank you for your recent email that Ken forwarded to me. We always appreciate when supporters of Starrett products take the time to express their feelings to us about their experiences (good or bad) with Starrett tools.

Concerning the S3020Z series squares that you recently purchased from Amazon.com, we want to assure you the product you received is indeed Starrett quality. We have been a global manufacturer since the 1950’s. We have manufacturing facilities in Brazil, Scotland and China and while we are very proud of what we make in the USA we are equally proud of our international produced product. Regardless of source or country of origin, all Starrett products meet the quality requirements on both accuracy and finish you have come to expect from Starrett precision products.

In your email below you also mention the cost of this series. These squares are made of stainless steel construction - they are hardened, ground and lapped on both the blade and the beam. So you can see these squares offer a strong value between the material being used, the required finish and the stated accuracy (.002" per six inches) for this product.

Of course, if country or origin is important to you our U.S. made Cat 20 Master precision squares should fill your need.

We take great pride in the fact that we have been in business over 132 years, we will not sell you a product that does not live up to our long-standing reputation.

Thank you again for taking the time to express your feeling concerning this matter. We hope we have given you comfort that the product you have is indeed the quality you have come to expect from The Starrett Company.

Kind Regards,
Douglas Starrett
President & CEO*@#$
The L S Starrett Co
Athol, Ma 01331

oldtools · Feb 13, 2012

It is Starrett own facilities in China that produce it, not some Chinese company that produce it for Starrett. Starrett utilize same quality control at its US facilities (as in Brazil and Scotland). I don't see why there would be any quality difference. The only difference is the nationality that turn on the machine. Is there any quality difference if a Chinese turn on the machine at a US facility as compare to a Chinese in a Starrett facility in China?

MD11 · Feb 13, 2012

There is a geopolitical difference, among other variables.

TommyD · Feb 13, 2012

Way back when I bought my toolbox and tools I wouldn't buy Mitutoyo because it was Japanese....China wasn't even making anything near precision back then, not that they are now.

A_Pmech · Feb 13, 2012

As soon as I get the 'ol Micromaster sorted and proven I'm thinking about making some squares, V-blocks, sine plates, 123 blocks and the like.

Starrett isn't doing themselves any favors and I'd be just as pissed as you are.

Davefr · Feb 13, 2012

MD11 said:
In the interest of those following this thread. I had a response from Starrett. The CEO himself no less and he gave their side to this. I shared with him my concerns in a response.

At least we know they're listening. Which is more than I can say for some others.

________________________________________

Dear Mr Xxxx,
*@#$
Thank you for your recent email that Ken forwarded to me. We always appreciate when supporters of Starrett products take the time to express their feelings to us about their experiences (good or bad) with Starrett tools.
*@#$
Concerning the S3020Z series squares that you recently purchased from Amazon.com, we want to assure you the product you received is indeed Starrett quality. We have been a global manufacturer since the 1950’s. We have manufacturing facilities in Brazil, Scotland and China and while we are very proud of what we make in the USA we are equally proud of our international produced product. Regardless of source or country of origin, all Starrett products meet the quality requirements on both accuracy and finish you have come to expect from Starrett precision products.
*@#$*@#$
In your email below you also mention the cost of this series. These squares are made of stainless steel construction - they are hardened, ground and lapped on both the blade and the beam. So you can see these squares offer a strong value between the material being used, the required finish and the stated accuracy (.002" per six inches) for this product.
*@#$
Of course, if country or origin is important to you our U.S. made Cat 20 Master precision squares should fill your need.
*@#$
We take great pride in the fact that we have been in business over 132 years, we will not sell you a product that does not live up to our long-standing reputation.
*@#$
Thank you again for taking the time to express your feeling concerning this matter. We hope we have given you comfort that the product you have is indeed the quality you have come to expect from The Starrett Company.
*@#$
Kind Regards,
Douglas Starrett
President & CEO*@#$
The L S Starrett Co
Athol, Ma 01331
*@#$
*@#$
*@#$

This is the same response we'll be seeing from just about everyone. (Sears, Snap On etc).

(ie trust our brand and don't worry about COO. We'll assure you the same quality standards regardless of where it's made.)

It looks like a decendent from old Leroy is still at the helm.

oldtools · Feb 13, 2012

MD11 said:
There is a geopolitical difference, among other variables.

I don't see how that would affect quality. Are you saying if Starrett has a facility in Germany, anything come out of that facility are junk?

MD11 · Feb 13, 2012

More from Doug. To be fair to him, he gets it and he's trying to survive in this race to the bottom.

Though I think the Squares Mituyoto makes are actually made in the USA, at least according to the Granger site.

__________________________

***,

Thank you for this and previous email. I wish more the politicians, purchasing and corporate managers thought like you do! If craftsmen like you could float our boat that would wonderful but there aren’t enough of you. Profits are good thing that is what pays for decent wages, health care benefits and retirement. Unfortunately our market share has been eroded by lost cost imports or distributors importing and putting their own brand on these products. I am not going to sit on my *** and hope this goes away. Americans in generally are not particularly loyal in buying U.S. made products but I agree with you that for the customer that is “country of origin sensitive” they should know before they purchase where the tool is made. We used to put country origin icons in our catalog but if production changed the catalog was out of date and misleading to the customer so we discontinued the practice. However with our new web-site I have already asked the marketing department start putting icons on product that is produced internationally. We are still making the majority of our precision tools right here in Athol, Massachusetts. As far as human rights issues go, most developing countries have problems. I do know that I am proud of our international plants and that includes China. We are environmentally conscious and compliant, and our people are treated well in a modern facility with good equipment.

By the way, if you think your buying Mitutoyo, Mahr or Brown& Sharpe (Tesa) made in Japan, Germany and Switzerland respectively, think again. All three have manufacturing plants in China and tools made in those plants have been sold in the U.S. for several years. Keep the faith and thanks for your support.

Doug

MD11 · Feb 13, 2012

oldtools said:
I don't see how that would affect quality. Are you saying if Starrett has a facility in Germany, anything come out of that facility are junk?

Yes. I do believe the German work and business ethic is better than the Chinese one (exempting Taiwan)

MD11 · Feb 13, 2012

A_Pmech said:
As soon as I get the 'ol Micromaster sorted and proven I'm thinking about making some squares, V-blocks, sine plates, 123 blocks and the like.

Starrett isn't doing themselves any favors and I'd be just as pissed as you are.

Coming from a master machinist list you John, it saddens me to hear this, you guys are the life blood of companies like this.

However, if you start making stuff like this... I'll be one of the first in line to get a hold of some! I don't think Starrett has abandoned Made in USA... just taking a broader market view.. I don't agree with them, but they seem to think they have to do it. I am glad they're still making their top shelf stuff here however.

Trucky · Feb 13, 2012

MD11 said:
Coming from a master machinist like you John, it saddens me to hear this, you guys are the life blood of companies like this.

However, if you start making stuff like this... I'll be one of the first in line to get a hold of some! I don't think Starrett has abandoned Made in USA... just taking a broader market view.. I don't agree with them, but they seem to think they have to do it. I am glad they're still making their top shelf stuff here however.

My thoughts exactly. Well, the bolded part :lol_hitti

darkzero · Feb 13, 2012

MD11 said:
said they recently removed COO off their website

So Starrett no longer lists their products as Global made & USA made? I remember looking at one of their catalogs a few years back where the overseas stuff was listed with a globe symbol or something like that.

I wonder how many more tool companies will start doing this & it bothers me. Places like Enco, MSC, Mcmaster, etc actually list USA made & import more often & not even mention the manufacturer.

TommyD said:
Way back when I bought my toolbox and tools I wouldn't buy Mitutoyo because it was Japanese....China wasn't even making anything near precision back then, not that they are now.

Won't buy Japanes either huh? Mitutoyo makes very fine products & I'm a big fan of Mitutoyo. In fact 95% of my measuring tools are Mitu with no regrets or issues at all.

MD11 · Feb 13, 2012

darkzero said:
Won't buy Japanes either huh? Mitutoyo makes very fine products & I'm a big fan of Mitutoyo. In fact 95% of my measuring tools are Mitu with no regrets or issues at all.

I think he meant "used to" ... i recall back in the "old days" in the 50's and 60's.. made in Japan wasn't a mark of quality... Fairly or otherwise.. Today, it's known that Japan is on par with Germany for workmanship. Heck, I've got a Suzuki harmonica from Japan that sells for over $5000 retail, and a Yamaha electric keyboard/piano that sells for about the same, not to mention my Canon 5D MkII and lenses that go for even more...

Made in Japan is great stuff.

Jim Johnstone · Feb 13, 2012

A_Pmech said:
As soon as I get the 'ol Micromaster sorted and proven I'm thinking about making some squares, V-blocks, sine plates, 123 blocks and the like.

Starrett isn't doing themselves any favors and I'd be just as pissed as you are.

Agreed, once I get my grinder up and running, I'll be making all my own 123's, 246's, parallel's, v blocks. I was looking through a tooling supplier catalog at 3/8" parallels and was blown away, I could either pay peanuts for off shore stuff, or pay half a months wages for brown and sharp, with very few options in between.

EXTREMELY disappointed in Starrett today.

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