Horrible Kijiji Tool Box Experience!!

Squints · Feb 19, 2012

So I needed a new tool box as my old one is getting tight to the point of not being organized anymore.

So off I went to talk to the Snap On man and he priced me on a KRL 7023 and a
sweet looking 68" Epiq.....I prefer the 7023 because i'm 5'4" and its only 41" high versus the Epiq's 46".....

Anyways was ready to pull the trigger, had line of credit set up (for Lower interest rate) and I got looking on Kijiji for a used box....just for the "heck" of it.

Low and behold there was a blue KRL7023 with a Stainless top for $5000!!
So I email the guy with the usual questions...."is it stolen, any liens,what kind of shape is it in? ect....

Within 15 mins I got an email back saying that the box is in great shape,he was the original owner and he peeled the serial # off because he didn't like stickers (red flag) NO liens and
he could also do a better price at $4k

After a little bartering I managed to get him down to 2500$ and a case of beer....some people desperately need cash right?

So I gather up a trailer and a couple of friends and we go check it out....
Sure enough the box is in great shape and I can't find a serial # anywhere?
So i get his name and I already have his address and I call my snap on guy.

Without a serial # he can't trace the box but he puts in a few calls and the guys name comes up in good standing....

Ok good then?! So I am the proud owner of a new Krl box!

Well that was 2 weeks ago....and this Thursday past another (not my dealer) Snap On guy swings into my shop and says he heard that someone had just bought a Krl off of Kijiji....he needs to run the serial #'s

Same as me couldn't find a number. But after i tell him the name of the guy that Id bought it from he's convinced it's the box he's looking for with a hefty lien on it...holy ****!

According to this Snap on man the guy that i bought the box from bought it off of a deadbeat co worker the day before me for $2k! His co worker defaulted on the loan...

So i'm so upset that i'm shaking....I talk to the Snap on account manager on the phone and offer to buy the box from them at a used price. She says no and that they need the box in their possession and that it'll be sold at a later date..

So still very upset and knowing in my gut that the deal i got was too good to be true....I told the Snap On guy that he could take the box, and I started to unload my tools.....

Luckily for me a good friend and co worker caught wind of the situation and "talked me down" noting that since there was no serial # that mr snap on saying that this was THE box was only here-say...

So I politely told him to leave and that i'd be talking to the police and a lawyer..

Anyways I'm not going to say what the police or the lawyer said (for obvious reasons) but because of my situation I get to keep the box even if it is proved to be the lien box.

I did try to protect myself but I suppose sometimes you can never do enough...buyer beware! I should of walked when I found out there were no serial #'s on it ..

What could I have done as a buyer?

I did call SO with the guys name who i'd bought it from....
I couldn't give a serial #...so do i say I have a big blue tool box? It's square?
Being that there is no title for these things what can we do?

I think for the value of a box these days there should be a title and the serials should be STAMPED on ALL boxes!
Especially if a lien can be applied to them!!

p.s I hope i don't break any forum rules by posting my story
:scared:

Brad54 · Feb 19, 2012

Relax... it's the word of two people against one another. Did you buy a box with a lien on it? Maybe you did, maybe you didn't.
But if Snap-on was really that freaking concerned about things like that, they'd invest in the tooling to punch a serial number on the boxes and register. The damn things cost as much as a car, there's ZERO reason it should have a sticker on it that can obviously be removed.
What freakin' good does a sticker do??

You are under no obligation to be out the money. You bought it in good faith, and the corporation can not prove you have something they have a claim to.

-Brad

Gtamazing · Feb 19, 2012

What part of Canada was this?

MrMark · Feb 19, 2012

You didn't do the right things. Calling your Snap on man is pointless. He has no way to check for liens. You needed to check with your equivalent of the secretary of state to check for filings of UCC1 aka financing statements. Your law may be different but that's how it is in the US. Of course, without the serial number you would have had grave difficulty checking the UCC records. You're lucky you seem to be able to keep the box. Proving it was the box of that co-worker would not be hard.

MrMark · Feb 19, 2012

A purchase money lienholder (here Snap-on) with a properly perfected security interest, (a proper filing with the state) takes priority over all, including a bona fide purchaser for value, which you would even have a hard time proving you were, given your story and the lack of a serial number.

Snap on would have to prove up the chain of custody and ownership of the box by testimony of the selling dealer, and the subsequent purchasers as well as anyone else with knowledge, like shop owners, or co-workers, for example.

amolaver · Feb 19, 2012

MrMark said:
You didn't do the right things. Calling your Snap on man is pointless. He has no way to check for liens. You needed to check with your equivalent of the secretary of state to check for filings of UCC1 aka financing statements. Your law may be different but that's how it is in the US. Of course, without the serial number you would have had grave difficulty checking the UCC records. You're lucky you seem to be able to keep the box. Proving it was the box of that co-worker would not be hard.

with no serial number, there is zero way of 'proving it was the box of that co-worker'. the value of the box is probably greater than small claims, so it would have to go to 'real' court..and who is going to sue who, for what? the box has no ID. do you really think SO would try to sue the person they think MIGHT have a box they have claim to? err, no. i'm guessing they'll go after the deadbeat buyer, but if any SO rep tried to 'repo' that box, i'd be calling 911. with no s/n on it, they have ZERO proof of anything.

ahm

MrMark · Feb 19, 2012

I posted above how it would be proved up. Proving something like this is done every day in every court in America. How do you think stolen goods are recovered? You think the facile move of removing a serial number is enough to thwart any legitimate recovery attempts. It would be good for the crooks if true; fortunately it's not.

amolaver · Feb 19, 2012

good luck with that. once lawyered up, there is near zero chance of anyone taking it. the value just isn't high enough to go through court. less than $5K - they'll burn that in lawyers fees in two days. why would any owner in the chain cooperate - they've all got something to lose and zero incentive to do anything other than tell SO/cops/etc to pound sand.

ahm

kythri · Feb 19, 2012

You know, again, regardless of a lien, regardless of serial number, until a tool box carries a title that requires transfer with a state or federal agency (much like motor vehicles, real property, etc.) then attempts to "repossess" said box can go fly.

How exactly does a dealer or corporate put a legal lien on something like this?

All of these stories read like the creditor attempting to strong-arm someone into coughing up property to cover what seems to be an unsecured loan to a 3rd party.

chris142 · Feb 19, 2012

Can you put a Lein on the box? That way if they do take it somehow you would get your $$$ back.

american lockpicker · Feb 19, 2012

Damn that *****, I know I won't be buying a used box now.

SpiderGearsMan · Feb 19, 2012

I would have threw that other dealer out of my shop ..beat his ***

ptschram · Feb 19, 2012

Good faith buyer has grounds to go after the seller for selling "stolen" property.

However, in most states, buying something with obliterated identifying marks and for a low price is considered to be evidence it was stolen, or you should have recognized it as such.

Unfortunately, your story corroborates this and you could be found to have intentionally received "stolen" property.

Hootbro · Feb 19, 2012

What is this "lein" thing against a tool box? Is this a Canadian thing?

As previously mentioned, until the start putting title and registrations on a box, it is disposable property like anything else. Whatever the original owner had for bills is on the hook for it.

No trying to knock truck brands, but if that is the state of affairs with financing and truck credit, I will stay off them.

wannab20hatch · Feb 19, 2012

Congrats on the new box. Hope after all is said and done you get to keep it. :thumbup:

Stories like this are what made me bite the bullet and buy a box new of the truck.

back2class · Feb 19, 2012

I smell a troll. Seriously..how about buying box and shutting up. As in it is nobody's biz but you and the guy you purchased it from unless someone can prove otherwise. Sounds like you practicaly were begging the snap-on guys to find a reason this "could" be a box that is un-accounted for. Then about to hand it over to some truck dealer? ARE PEOPLE THIS STUPID? You purchased a box you felt was legit. You did nothing wrong...but it is stupid to say "I got this screaming deal....anyone think they may have a claim to this box?" If snap-on lost track of a box that is their problem and only a problem if they can PROVE this is said box. You don't know that and they don't know that and it is their responsibility find the answer if they can. Sounds like if you are not a troll, then you are too nervous to buy used things....just sell it for $2,500 this week and free yourself of the worry.

Underdog · Feb 19, 2012

I see both sides but what if you just bought the box and said nothing. No serial number no title its yours plain and simple. Now tool box titles are something I don't want any part of. Hard enough transferring vehicle titles without some typical error showing up. The seller swore that it wasn't stolen then you did your part. If the police asked you would have the sellers name for them.

Now SO would think differently of course and yea they got ripped off. But they took the chance of selling the box on credit. If they required all purchases be paid in cash at sale then they would never be out any money. Since they took a bet they lost this one. Its not like anybody doesn't' know how risky tool credit is?

ptschram · Feb 19, 2012

Hootbro said:
What is this "lein" thing against a tool box? Is this a Canadian thing?

As previously mentioned, until the start putting title and registrations on a box, it is disposable property like anything else. Whatever the original owner had for bills is on the hook for it.

No trying to knock truck brands, but if that is the state of affairs with financing and truck credit, I will stay off them.

The loan collateral is the box, hence the lien.

Brad54 · Feb 19, 2012

amolaver said:
good luck with that. once lawyered up, there is near zero chance of anyone taking it. the value just isn't high enough to go through court. less than $5K - they'll burn that in lawyers fees in two days. why would any owner in the chain cooperate - they've all got something to lose and zero incentive to do anything other than tell SO/cops/etc to pound sand.

ahm

The flip side of that is they might threaten to sue, thinking the OP will cave because he doesn't want to incur the legal costs to defend himself against Snap-on's legal team.

-Brad

Brad54 · Feb 19, 2012

american lockpicker said:
Damn that *****, I know I won't be buying a used box now.

That would probably make Snap-on very happy.
In fact, one might think that is their ultimate goal, between things like this and harassing Ebay sellers, etc.

-Brad

kythri · Feb 19, 2012

ptschram said:
The loan collateral is the box, hence the lien.

Who is the lien filed with? When you buy a new box off the truck, are you filling out paperwork that's being submitted to a government agency, who is then awarding a lien?

Typically, an attempt to place a lien isn't filed until someone defaults on an agreement.

Additionally, in most jurisdictions, a court has to award a lien against any kind of property, and traditionally, you can't place a lien on personal property as it's not titled, etc.

ptschram · Feb 19, 2012

Brad54 said:
That would probably make Snap-on very happy.
In fact, one might think that is their ultimate goal, between things like this and harassing Ebay sellers, etc.

-Brad

I wouldn't doubt that is at least part of their motivation, or at least to force folks to buy used off the truck.

bsaint · Feb 19, 2012

What is Klijiji

kythri · Feb 19, 2012

bsaint said:
What is Klijiji

Craigslist knock-off.

purplezr2 · Feb 19, 2012

bsaint said:
What is Klijiji

Canadian Craigslist from what I understand, or basically similar.

kythri · Feb 19, 2012

Brad54 said:
That would probably make Snap-on very happy.
In fact, one might think that is their ultimate goal, between things like this and harassing Ebay sellers, etc.

-Brad

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that Snap-on has a legal team pursuing the concept of tool "licensing", much like how software is (I mean ISN'T) sold to end-users today.

"Your license allows you to use this tool for 12 months, at which point you must return the tool to us or renew your license. Additionally, we may choose not to renew the license for tools that we deem obsolete, and sell you a license for a different version of the tool."

bsaint · Feb 19, 2012

The problem is Canada hasn't had any snow this year so they are going crazy. Like a full moon 24/7.

Squints · Feb 19, 2012

back2class said:
I smell a troll. Seriously..how about buying box and shutting up. As in it is nobody's biz but you and the guy you purchased it from unless someone can prove otherwise. Sounds like you practicaly were begging the snap-on guys to find a reason this "could" be a box that is un-accounted for. Then about to hand it over to some truck dealer? ARE PEOPLE THIS STUPID? You purchased a box you felt was legit. You did nothing wrong...but it is stupid to say "I got this screaming deal....anyone think they may have a claim to this box?" If snap-on lost track of a box that is their problem and only a problem if they can PROVE this is said box. You don't know that and they don't know that and it is their responsibility find the answer if they can. Sounds like if you are not a troll, then you are too nervous to buy used things....just sell it for $2,500 this week and free yourself of the worry.

Really? Because I bought something used in good faith and a Snap on guy came in to repo it makes me a troll?
I suggest you use that thing between your ears before you accuse people of things?

How would you feel if something that you bought for a good amount of cash was still someone else's property? And they possibly have the right to take it back?
Probably pretty upset like I was...

I am not to nervous to buy used things at all, in fact i do it all the time...but these used things; as far as I know are legit...and certainly aren't subject to a lien.

You have to remember that in this case the original owner/deadbeat/seller had no right to sell the liened box in the first place, not only did it violate his contract but quite possibly the law as well........

And if I was to turn around and sell it as well I could be contributing to this....without talking to a lawyer you aren't really sure....it also varies by country and state/province as well.

I am a law abiding citizen and want to keep it that way....I do not want to be buying stolen goods or someone else's defaulted goods.

jkruger54 · Feb 19, 2012

I bought a brand new Snap-on box (KRA2007) last year from a local guy on C/L. The price was incredibly low ($250.00) and I asked him where he got it and why he was selling it for so little. His response was that it was a gift from his father in law and he needed the cash right now to keep from being evicted. He's not a mechanic and had little use for it. I assumed that the serial number was stamped in it the way the older boxes are but when I got it to the shop I noticed some glue from a sticker close to where the serial number usually is. He may have taken the sticker off not knowing that it was where the serial number was located.
The way I see it I bought it in good faith and it belongs to me now.

jhelrey · Feb 19, 2012

Two words- Prove it! No way in hell they can prove that box is the one they are after... simple as that

Skin · Feb 19, 2012

Pretty huge warning signs with no serial number and talking the guy down nearly 50% off with ease. And it can be traced back and reclaimed if the previous owners cop to it. Pretty simple. It was a risk. If it pays off it pays off but remember it could very well be that dealer who gets F'd in this situation. I absolutely agree they're idiots for not riveting or stamping the information in some place. I'm actually shocked they dont do it already.

SINISTER · Feb 19, 2012

That box will be paid for somehow. I don't understand why you are so upset. If the dealer isnt getting paid by the buyer a debt collector will get them to pay. Most of the time its through snap on credit and not the dealers line of credit.

You as long as you have a bill of sale or something in writing saying you payed for it and how much it will hold up in court which it will 99% of the time never come down to.

If you say buy a brand new LED smart tv on credit and then lets say you sell it a month later and default on your credit. Your credit agency will lock you out of additional credit, and come after you by means of debt collection, and your credit score will be down the tubes. Do you honestly think the store, credit agency, debt collectors will come after the guy who bought the TV from you? Hell no. Play stupid, not everyone knows what snap on boxes cost or even that they have serial numbers. When I bought my box I played it safe and told my GF I only payed 500$ thinking she would assume I got a good deal. No, she has no idea what they are worth 500$ for a tool box was still ridiculous in her mind.

civhatch90 · Feb 19, 2012

Skin said:
I absolutely agree they're idiots for not riveting or stamping the information in some place. I'm actually shocked they dont do it already.

Even more so considering they are trying to use that as and identifying number in the box when the owner stops payment.

OP, you bought a box you suspected could have been stolen or not fully paid, that's why you asked the snap on guy to check this guys name. The fact that there was no serial number and that you got it for real cheap are usually giveaways as to the fact that something isn't right.

Good luck keeping this thing.

geologist · Feb 19, 2012

Without a sticker, there is no way for them to definitively prove with complete certainty that your particular box has a lien on it. After all, you bought it from a guy that could have got it anywhere and you had your Snap-on man check him out. It's only through your honesty that the Snap-on guy had any clue of where that box ended up. You did your job.

As for the box, photograph it, and send to reside elsewhere for a while. When they want to see it, provide the photos through your attorney and ask them to prove via serial that it's the one they're looking for.

Hearsay isn't worth **** in court.

kythri · Feb 19, 2012

The dealer doesn't get screwed. The dealer sends the deadbeat buyer to a collection agency, just like any other creditor who's has issues recovering debt.

geologist · Feb 19, 2012

kythri said:
The dealer doesn't get screwed. The dealer sends the deadbeat buyer to a collection agency, just like any other creditor who's has issues recovering debt.

+1

You hit the nail on the head.

MrMark · Feb 19, 2012

Nothing needs be proved with complete certainty, not even the judgment of death in a death case. The standard for this is more likely than not or 51 percent. I think they can meet that burden.

The lien is created at the time money is loaned just like a mortgage. The act of filing the financing statement perfects the lenders security interest which takes priority over all subsequent purchasers.

Skin · Feb 19, 2012

kythri said:
The dealer doesn't get screwed. The dealer sends the deadbeat buyer to a collection agency, just like any other creditor who's has issues recovering debt.

1. The guy could skip town. Debt doesnt magically get paid.
2. Collection Agencies arent free.

If it was a truck finance deal hes eating those costs until its paid off, which may never happen, and even if it does he still gets dinged by whatever the agencies comission charge is-which can be pretty hefty.

edit-i should also mention that collection agencies are actually quite toothless unless there is a lawsuit involved. They cant simply force a payment/wage garnishment in otherwords. Takes some work.

kythri · Feb 19, 2012

MrMark said:
Nothing needs be proved with complete certainty, not even the judgment of death in a death case. The standard for this is more likely than not or 51 percent. I think they can meet that burden.

The lien is created at the time money is loaned just like a mortgage. The act of filing the financing statement perfects the lenders security interest which takes priority over all subsequent purchasers.

That's NOT how liens work. I'm going to have to challenge anyone to prove that a Snap-on box financed by truck/credit has an actual lien on it.

Liens MUST be issued by a court of law, unless you're the government, in which case, you can put them on anything your little government heart desires.

Further, property securing a loan typically needs to be titled in some way, or it remains in the lender's possession.

Can anyone post anything from a contract that somehow gives Snap-on (or any other truck brand) some magical rights that nobody else has?

Basically, disprove that this is an unsecured loan from the creditor.

kythri · Feb 19, 2012

Skin said:
1. The guy could skip town. Debt doesnt magically get paid.
2. Collection Agencies arent free.

If it was a truck finance deal hes eating those costs until its paid off, which may never happen, and even if it does he still gets dinged by whatever the agencies comission charge is-which can be pretty hefty.

edit-i should also mention that collection agencies are actually quite toothless unless there is a lawsuit involved. They cant simply force a payment/wage garnishment in otherwords. Takes some work.

Oh, I don't disagree with you.

What I'm saying is that, unless the creditors in this case have legal powers that most other creditors don't, then an issue like this is solely between the lender and the purchaser.

I'm failing to see how untitled merchandise (because a tool box and tools doesn't fall under the category of "property", really) on what appears to be an unsecured loan can be "repossessed" by a dealer, without the voluntary relinquishment by the possessor of that merchandise.

Folks here are treating the tool box like it's a car - an item that has a legal title to it that must be transferred through official channels, and serves as proof of ownership - I'd like to see a title for a tool box.

Horrible Kijiji Tool Box Experience!!

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