Planning Santa Fe style build in AZ

mzbk2l · Mar 7, 2012

I'm scheduled to close this month on a new (to me) house in Pinal County, just outside of Apache Junction, AZ, at the foot of Superstition Mountain. The house has an attached 3-car garage, but I plan to use that for the daily drivers and the motorcycles.

I'd like to put up something along the lines of 32' x 48' as a place to keep my workshop and project cars and 2-post lift. The only concessions I have to make to keep my better half happy are 1) it can't be in front of the house, and 2) the style should match or compliment the house. Other than that, she's been extremely supportive:

"Are you sure 30' x 40' is big enough? You should add some space so you have enough room." (Hence the 32' x 48'.)
"We need to make sure we build it where you have room to expand when you want to."
"Maybe you can have the pad poured bigger than the building in case you want to add on."

I'm still completely in the brainstorming phase, but I'm currently gravitating toward a 2 cars wide by 2 cars deep layout. The two bays closest to the doors will be parking for my other two daily drivers, while the two spaces further in will house a 2-post lift on one side and a locking tool room/workshop on the other side.

I'm permitted up to 20 feet in height on a detached building in my zoning, so I'm thinking about 16'+ ceilings so I can have a loft or small living area above the tool room.

Here's the style of my current garage; the new one will look similar, only taller, wider, and deeper:

A couple of other house pics:

And the property layout (probably put the building where the two adjacent sheds are now):

The 3 big Saguaro cactus on the property are probably 100-125 years old, so the building will be planned to avoid encroaching on those.

mzbk2l · Mar 7, 2012

While I've been a mechanic for over 20 years, I've done next to no carpentry work whatsoever. I'd like perform as much of the work on my building as I can, but I don't even know enough to know what I don't know.... the sum total of my experience is a couple years of electricity in HS, and replacing 3-4 shingle roofs.

I've been reading on GJ for several weeks, but there don't seem to be a lot of builds in the sonoran desert. I don't know how much different the concrete requirements are out here compared to many of your builds in more humid areas of the country (with soil instead of sand).

Anyway, if any of you have Santa Fe style buildings, or neighbors with Santa Fe style buildings, or even suggestions for Santa Fe Style buildings, I'm all ears.

Oh, one other thing: Many of the houses out this way have "observation decks" on part of the roof of the house (easy to do with the flat roof and outside walls that are higher than the roof). My house does not, so I'll probably plan for part of the building to include that feature. It'll be a nice place to sit and have a drink in the evening and watch the sun set over Phoenix.

Obviously lots of planning and preparing to do, but I'm anxious to get to the point where I can start posting pictures!

atotalnincompoop · Mar 7, 2012

mzbk2l said:
I'm permitted up to 20 feet in height on a detached building in my zoning, so I'm thinking about 16'+ ceilings so I can have a loft or small living area above the tool room.

i just did the loft thing and i couldn't be happier :thumbup:

too much floor space was lost in my last garage to parts storage, now everything that i don't need immediately goes upstairs, out of the way :beer:

mzbk2l · Mar 7, 2012

Cool, thanks for the feedback, ATN.

Falcon67 · Mar 7, 2012

My wife is from Albuquerque (which is why I can spell it without Google) and having been in NM a lot, I don't recall seeing a lot of larger shops done in the SW tradition. Your place is beautiful BTW. Glad you are saving the cacti.

I would look at two story adobe houses and get some ideas there. A big square brown box won't quite blend IMHO, LOL. Got to get some southwest steps, lines, etc in there.

Here's a bunch of photos from Taos: http://www.pbase.com/waynes6/image/118115061

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Xavi-Eco-Natural-building/265240090185920

mzbk2l · Mar 7, 2012

Thanks, Falcon. Your garage build is one of the first ones I bookmarked for inspiration here. I agree that a big brown box won't look like much; I'm hoping to work in some variations in wall (and possibly roof) height, as well as wall details and shapes above the roofline.

My SO is a commercial designer, and has much more visual imagination than I do. If whatever we come up with passes muster with her, I'm certain it will be an improvement to the property in both my view and in hers.

Zeke · Mar 7, 2012

My first couple of thoughts were that 1/4 of the building, sectioned off, will not be enough for a shop/tool room. I think you should at the very least put a large sliding door (plus a man door) so that a bigger project can "spill over."

The other is the ceiling height. I don't think you have to maintain a high parapet but you do have to have slope on the roof. Remember that floor joists for the room above will likely be 2 x 12's, so you need to add in a foot there and a foot at the roof. 18' at the high side of the slope will get you near 8' ceilings above and below. I know I would not want a shop with 7' ceilings nor a room with same. You couldn't even use a ceiling fan.

At 18' high for the roof framing, you might be able to drop the parapet a foot. 20' tall out there in the yard is going to loom large.

One last thought, you might consider stepping the parapet to match the house. I would myself even stagger the bays offset like the area above the tile on the main house. One step should do it rather than two.

Show that design to the wife!

idoine in toronto · Mar 7, 2012

I agree with Zeke regarding setting one bay back and braking the massing down to smaller elements to prevent the structure from looking like a huge single block. I'd also look at using a raised monitor/clearstory over your loft w/ north glazing to get the height you need w/o raising the roof height of the entire structure and possibly dwarfing the scale of you home.

Here are a few images (not mine) of "Pueblo" style homes that incorporate these techniques.

They are more elaborate than what I'd recommend for your garage, but you get the idea.

For what it's worth, I grew up in and studied architecture in New Mexico and have designed and built many Territorial, Pueblo, and Santa Fe style homes.

mzbk2l · Mar 7, 2012

Thanks, Zeke and idoine.

Zeke, I agree about the ceiling height and the thought of having a huge shoebox sitting in my yard... that's one thing that has me thinking of 4 cars wide instead of 2 wide by 2 deep. If I go 4 cars wide, I can do 2 bays with 10' ceilings and 2 bays with 18' ceilings, which would really break up the shape of the building. (All of this is why I'm still in the brainstorming phase, and why I'm happily reading all replies.)

idoine, thank you for the drawings and suggestions. Are there differences between Territorial, Pueblo, and Santa Fe styles? While I was looking at homes where I ended up buying, I saw houses that I thought looked nearly identical, but one may have been called Territorial and the next called Santa Fe.

I like the raised area idea over the loft; that would allow me to go with maybe a 16' ceiling over the lift (leaving plenty of lifting room), and still have a loft I can stand up in.

idoine in toronto · Mar 7, 2012

In a nut shell, New Mexico Territorial style architecture incorporated Greek revival elements, that were popular in the east, into the regional adobe buildings. Typical features are white double hung windows and doors as well as brick trim at the parapet.

Santa Fe, and Pueblo style are now commonly interchangeable, but the style is a revival of the traditional buildings of the SW Pueblo Indians who built in adobe and stone, usually small rooms with flat roofs that were added on to room at a time.

Pueblo Revival today - The Loretto Inn, Santa Fe

Here is a brief description of the styles
http://santafeproperties.com/SantaFe/architecture.html

I'd describe your home as Santa Fe/Pueblo style.

Bull · Mar 7, 2012

Whoah, welcome board, Mike!

On a completely unrelated note: it would take me a while to get used to the landscape out there. Everything is so dry and brown looking!

1320stang · Mar 7, 2012

I used to build adobe homes in the Albuquerque area 25 years ago. I miss it.

risinoutlaw · Mar 7, 2012

Kind of off topic, but whats the total acreage of your property? Going to be looking at property in the Florence area here in the next year or so, and the size of your property looks perfect to me. Congrats on the new home!

Zeke · Mar 7, 2012

I think this thread and the build are going to get very interesting. idoine, those are some nice sketches.

idoine in toronto · Mar 7, 2012

1320stang said:
I used to build adobe homes in the Albuquerque area 25 years ago. I miss it.

1320stang, it’s possible we crossed paths, as I was working on an adobe in the North Valley in ’90-91. Miss it too.

Zeke said:
I think this thread and the build are going to get very interesting. idoine, those are some nice sketches.

I agree this could turn out pretty nice.
As for the sketches, I also agree that they're nice, but unfortunately can't take any credit for them, as I found them on the net when searching for "Santa Fe style garages".

Thread jack warning:
Here are a few images from a home I recently designed in NM

mzbk2l · Mar 7, 2012

idoine in toronto said:
Santa Fe, and Pueblo style are now commonly interchangeable, but the style is a revival of the traditional buildings of the SW Pueblo Indians who built in adobe and stone, usually small rooms with flat roofs that were added on to room at a time.

Here is a brief description of the styles
http://santafeproperties.com/SantaFe/architecture.html

I'd describe your home as Santa Fe/Pueblo style.

Thanks, idoine. I've admired the Santa Fe style since I moved to AZ in '97; I just never knew what it was called or how it compared to the other similar styles.

I've never seen a house like the one you recently designed in NM; it looks like it combines elements of Santa Fe with the peaked roof of other styles.

Bull said:
Whoah, welcome board, Mike!

On a completely unrelated note: it would take me a while to get used to the landscape out there. Everything is so dry and brown looking!

Thanks, Bull. I recognize you and Stuart from PY; anybody else here?

I grew up in MI, so the change from green to brown was an adjustment for me, but only in good ways. No more grass to mow, no more snow to shovel, no more dismal, dreary days for 3/4 of the year, and no more rust on my old cars (the biggest selling point for me). I can't imagine living anywhere else!

risinoutlaw said:
Kind of off topic, but whats the total acreage of your property? Going to be looking at property in the Florence area here in the next year or so, and the size of your property looks perfect to me. Congrats on the new home!

Hi risinoutlaw. My new property is on 1.25 acres (as are most of the others out there at the base of Superstition Mountain). I haven't been down to Florence in years - probably before the housing boom. It was a sleepy little burg back then, but it may have changed completely when property values out here went through the roof. Good luck in your search!

On a separate note, I went to sleep thinking of the input so far (I'm 8 hours ahead of EST right now), and I don't know that there's much of a way to make 2 cars wide by 2 cars deep look like anything more than a giant shoebox. Perhaps I should go 4 cars side-by-side instead, so I can stagger the depths of the bays and put the doors on different planes. That would also make it much easier to vary the heights of the parapets for some visual appeal.... I just don't know how much that bit of complexity would add to the cost.

upndown · Mar 8, 2012

Hi mike and welcome! Great looking place you got there, love the view off the pool!! did some backpacking in the Superstitions back in the day, never found the gold tho :lol:

I too am a midwest transplant.. I moved here from Ill. in 79 gave away my snow shovel and never looked back haha. Looking forward to following your build... Good Luck!

l

5lima30 · Mar 8, 2012

Sounds like an interesting build! I love the look of the exposed peeled log beams in the ceiling with the adobe walls!

Falcon67 · Mar 8, 2012

idoine in toronto said:
I agree this could turn out pretty nice.
As for the sketches, I also agree that they're nice, but unfortunately can't take any credit for them, as I found them on the net when searching for "Santa Fe style garages".

I googled the same thing, then spent an hour on Google Earth going over Superstition Mt and trying to spot the house LOL. What a time killer! I'm in west Texas and you start picking up a little of that architecture out the way - not a lot, but when you see it, it does blend well with the landscape.

mzbk2l · Mar 9, 2012

upndown said:
Hi mike and welcome! Great looking place you got there, love the view off the pool!! did some backpacking in the Superstitions back in the day, never found the gold tho I too am a midwest transplant.. I moved here from Ill. in 79 gave away my snow shovel and never looked back haha. Looking forward to following your build... Good Luck!

Thanks, upndown. I'm glad nobody's found the Lost Dutchman mine yet... I probably wouldn't be able to afford a house out there if they had!

Falcon67 said:
I googled the same thing, then spent an hour on Google Earth going over Superstition Mt and trying to spot the house LOL. What a time killer! I'm in west Texas and you start picking up a little of that architecture out the way - not a lot, but when you see it, it does blend well with the landscape.

That's funny, Falcon. I spent hours and hours on google earth while I was looking at houses out that way. Looking at travel routes, roads that may wash out during storms, views to the mountain, etc. Scoping out any similar properties that may have had big detached buildings, too.

Google recently updated the Google Maps page for that area; if you zoom in to within 2-3 stops of the closest zoom, it automatically switches to the 45* angle view like the overhead pics I posted. Makes it much easier to look at people's garages.

mzbk2l · May 18, 2012

No big updates to this one... we talked to the guy who built the house in 1997; he remembered it well and is interested in giving a quote on a garage built to match the house. He built about 40 houses out our way, designing them all by hand on a drafting board at his house. He said he doesn't do much drawing or designing any more, but he wouldn't mind coming up with something for a matching garage based on our drawings. He said the county doesn't require stamped drawings, and they are very easy to deal with on the permit process. All good news so far...

I've been playing with sketchup to see how different configurations would look... I have all that space in the back yard, but I really don't want to be a ***** and put up a billboard-sized wall in between my neighbor's back patio and the mountain. That limits me to building somewhat beside the house - I won't go behind where the two adjacent sheds are in the picture in the OP.

My favorites are below. This one, just inside the property line, isn't bad except that it's further from the house. I'd need a lot of concrete to make a continuous pad from the attached garage to the front of this one.

This one is nice for ease of driving in and the fact that it's close the the electricity and water lines that are already run into the yard (to the old horse shelter next to the cactus above the back corner of the garage), and to the septic tank (gray rectangle in the fenced area of the back yard). Much less concrete required, too.

The flip side; the cube on the left is a workshop and slightly more secure area for toolbox/welder/etc. storage.

Anyway, slow progress, but still working toward the goal. Thoughts - suggestions - criticisms - questions?

Krash Kadillak · May 18, 2012

I like the second location, but what about access to the back of the property?
If you had to store an RV or large trailer, where would you put it? Perhaps scoot the whole building backwards maybe 15 feet? That would give you room on the far side.

AZ Pete · May 18, 2012

I kind of favor the second concept, but would need to see an elevation to be sure. I live a couple of miles down the road from you, so will be really interested in seeing what you decide on.

mzbk2l · May 19, 2012

Krash Kadillak said:
I like the second location, but what about access to the back of the property?
If you had to store an RV or large trailer, where would you put it? Perhaps scoot the whole building backwards maybe 15 feet? That would give you room on the far side.

KK, there is currently 16' - 20' between the corner of the garage and the property line (the property line is a few feet into the uncleared area at the bottom of the pic), so plenty of room to drive an RV or horse trailer or concrete truck back there if I need to.

I don't want to push back because of the cacti; it's supposed to take 50-75 years before they even start to grow an arm, so those must be ~150 years old... Not easily replaceable, and not something I want to tear up or damage by encroaching on the root system.

AZ Pete said:
I kind of favor the second concept, but would need to see an elevation to be sure. I live a couple of miles down the road from you, so will be really interested in seeing what you decide on.

Still working on details, but it's going to closely match the style of the house. My drawing doesn't have any of the details like the pop-outs for the roof drains or any possible windows, but the garage will have matching features.

Krash Kadillak · May 19, 2012

mzbk2l said:
I don't want to push back because of the cacti; it's supposed to take 50-75 years before they even start to grow an arm, so those must be ~150 years old... Not easily replaceable, and not something I want to tear up or damage by encroaching on the root system.

Yeah - after I posted I looked at the photo again and saw the cactus, said well it ain't going backwards......

72Anthony · May 19, 2012

Looks like you have a very nice place with an incredible view. Excellent job with the sketchup renderings.

I'm liking the first layout where the garage is separated from the house. Have you considered adding a bathroom...this could allow future conversion into a guest house if you ever sell the property.

In any case, spending some money up front consulting with an architect should really pay off to ensure the garage complements the house, the site, and takes maximum advantage of the views.

Check out this thread for a high-end garage that matches house:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147690

Look forward to seeing the build out!

mzbk2l · May 20, 2012

Hi 72Anthony, thanks for the compliments.

We're pretty much leaning toward the layout that puts it beside the house, partly because it minimizes the huge walls blocking neighbors' views, and partly because we'd like to use the upstairs patio a lot and we'd like the convenience of having it close. (Also minimizes the runs for electric, water, and possibly septic, and cuts down on the concrete needed.)

Yes, we're definitely leaning toward adding a bathroom, or at least stubbing in the septic plumbing. It will definitely have water and electric. Guest room or house is a strong possibility for the future, but probably not right off the bat.

As for the garage matching the house, we're currently getting a bid from the guy who designed and built the house, so hopefully he can make it match.

Angelfire · May 20, 2012

Interestingly enough, I'm hopefully breaking ground on my adobe style garage here in Albuquerque in a few weeks. The main motivation is an addition to the home as well. My main reason for having the stand alone garage is to have it such that it could be easily converted to a Casita down the road if I ever decide to sell. I'll have all the utilities at least roughed in for possible future use.

Construction of these buildings isn't very difficult as they are pretty much all square! In your neck of the woods, you could do a simply monolithic pour or if you prefer, footing/Stem/Slab, and you won't have to excavate all that much as I suspect if you even have a frostline, it's very shallow. Mine here is around 14" so I'm setting all my footings at 18" mininum. This is after I've over excavated 36" and raise it back up in 4-6" lifts while compacting. The sand is surprisingly good for building on as it really compacts well although you'd want to make sure your soil doesn't need any engineered fill....get compaction tests done! I've seen too many cracked slabs around here due to contractors who think they did a good job compacting only to find out they didn't. Otherwise, for mine, it's just simple 2x6 frame construction with trusses on top.

IMO, the key to pulling these things off is to not make them too big (tall) and not having too many long exterior walls. Break it up with portals, windows, etc... Otherwise, they look like a shoebox as you described. Put in exposed beams (false) over the windows and expose the beam over the garage door...helps to add some character vs. mundane stucco going on forever. My shop is going to have one ceiling height at 11' for the garage portion and another at 10' for my woodworking portion. I can't go any higher than that or it starts looking lousy (11' is already bordering on 'shoebox' at my place). I'd prefer to lower the ceiling in the garage portion but my Jeep needs the height. I've seen too many that build an adobe style garage for their RV at 15' ceilings and it looks like dog **** sitting next to their house. So if you can get creative and keep the ceiling height down, I think you'd be better off. I'm no architect mind you!

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. At the end of the day, the construction is pretty straightforward on these. It's the aesthetics that can be a bit challenging.

mzbk2l · May 21, 2012

Thanks, Angelfire. I hope you'll be posting a thread on yours as it goes up; I'd like to see it. As far as I know, there is no frost line here... I've seen an overnight low that goes under 30 maybe once a year, if that.

I plan on a 14' ceiling in the lift bay, 8' or so in the other rooms. (I'm 6'5", and I'd like to be able to stand under vehicles when they're on the lift.) The house has some fairly tall sections for a one-story; the living room ceiling is 12', the kitchen, dining room, master bedroom and all 3 baths are 10', and the 2nd/3rd bedrooms and garage are 8', so lots of variation in the heights of the roof and parapets. I think if I can minimize the height of the parapet on the tall section of the garage, I can stay close to the same height as the tallest part of the house. The remainder of the garage will be much shorter.

I also like the look of the wood beams over windows and doors, but I'm going to try to very closely match the style of the house and it wasn't built with those over the openings. I'll try to use some other styles that do match the house features to break things up.

svtrichie · Jun 5, 2012

very cool and can't wait to see so progress pics. I am up in mesa(val vista and mcdowell). My shop/garage is 35x45 not including the carport area.

taxableABE · Aug 9, 2012

Holy cow svtrichie! Question about the zoning permits in Maricopa county, how hard is it to get one built if I had the land but no HOA? Say at least an acre of land. I'm planning to buy a different home than the one I'm in, Glendale, AZ.

I'm planning on getting a non HOA area with at least an acre but somewhat close to Phoenix metro, which is a bit hard with HOA's sprouting up all over the area.

1320stang · Aug 9, 2012

idoine in toronto said:
1320stang, it’s possible we crossed paths, as I was working on an adobe in the North Valley in ’90-91. Miss it too.

I was gone by then, was only there for about a year, '87-'88. Worked for Terry Taggart. He then bought into Groff Lumber I believe.

WWIIjeep · Aug 9, 2012

taxableABE said:
Holy cow svtrichie! Question about the zoning permits in Maricopa county, how hard is it to get one built if I had the land but no HOA? Say at least an acre of land. I'm planning to buy a different home than the one I'm in, Glendale, AZ.

I'm planning on getting a non HOA area with at least an acre but somewhat close to Phoenix metro, which is a bit hard with HOA's sprouting up all over the area.

It's going to depend on which city you end up in, and the specific zoning. In Glendale, ideally you'd want to find something zoned A-1 or SR, and those are getting pretty hard to find close to PHX metro (depending on your defintion of "close"). Mesa is more lenient than other valley cities. Or go west beyond the 303, or east toward Apache Junction like the OP, or south to Queen Creek. It's a lot easier in those places to find the kind of site you're looking for, but you're certainly not close to PHX metro anymore.

Most importantly, check with the zoning department wherever you're looking. Definitely don't take the realtor's word for any of it. There are good ones who do know, but there are more who don't know. Don't take our word here either.

Back to the OP: I like the second plan. Looks like that's the direction you're headed. Good luck with the project, and looking forward to seeing what you do.

PECVD2 · Aug 9, 2012

1320stang said:
I was gone by then, was only there for about a year, '87-'88. Worked for Terry Taggart. He then bought into Groff Lumber I believe.

WOW, Stang. You probably worked on the two Taggart homes that were built in my neighborhood. Both passive solar adobe beauties. One was plastered a salmon color in NW Corrales that was built around that time. I figured that color might remind you of the home.

MZBK I built a big box and wish now that I would have added some additional sub- structure to it. I may still add a patio or carport out front just to break up the "largeness" of it.

3pedal · Aug 11, 2012

I moved to Albuquerque when I was young, and lived there for quite a while. Still go home several times a year. The Santa Fe style is very cool, and some of the newer styles are great.

Thinking about how to break up the size of the building, you might think about things like covered porches. Visit Old Town Albuquerque or Santa Fe, and they both have these large covered areas in front of many buildings. Typically there are locals selling Indian Jewelry on blankets in them. In the southwest, it never hurts to have more shade in the summer, and it would nicely breakup the building with different, but functional character lines.

84'chevyguy · Aug 22, 2012

If you havent already broken ground, you could build down 6' or so to give you that extra level if your county allows it. Just a thought.

Planning Santa Fe style build in AZ

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