Ugh, the dreaded bubbles in my new Epoxy-Coat floor :-( Pics inside

JPowles · May 25, 2012

So I started the Epoxy-Coat yesterday by cleaning the concrete exactly as stated in the intructions. My slab was only 3.5 months old on my new construction home. The process went very smoothly until I started seeing bubbles pop up everywhere. By the time the bubbles started showing up the flakes were already in place and in areas of the floor that I could no longer reach. I did all the research here on the forums about the issue and from what it sounds like my only option now is to sand the bubbles down and re-apply another coat. Ugh, I already spent $400 on two kits from Lowes.

Besides the bubbles, the floor actually looks damn good. The camera makes it look worse than it is, and infact you dont even see them unless you get down on your knees. So unless I can get a couple free kits or a big discount I think im gonna have to just leave it as it is. Either way im very happy with the results (besides the bubble), but the only thing that bothers me is the instructions made it seem like getting rid of the bubbles was no big deal, when in reality by the time they start showing up the flakes have already been applied, and enough square footage is on that you couldnt get to the bubbles anyway.

I contacted Epoxy-Coat, but need to call back next week when Christine is in.

Does anyone know if I do a little sanding on the bubbles, then simply re-apply another coat will it be perfectly smooth even over the flakes?

Here are the pics

Herb67SS · May 25, 2012

Ugh. That,s not good. But- it's sure a non-skid surface now. Let us know what she says!

BTW - where did that hydrant come from? Guess I'm too old to know what's available out there for new construction. I like it. Is it freeze proof?
/Herb

Scottishross · May 25, 2012

how did the bubbles happen mate

JPowles · May 25, 2012

Herb67SS said:
Ugh. That,s not good. But- it's sure a non-skid surface now. Let us know what she says!

BTW - where did that hydrant come from? Guess I'm too old to know what's available out there for new construction. I like it. Is it freeze proof?
/Herb

Its a hot/cold vertical/horizontal hydrant made by Prier. It actually did not come with the house as this house just had one in the back and front side. I loved them in the garage so my dad installed this one. Here is the link:
http://www.prier.com/products/resid...r-horizontal-hot-and-cold-mixing-hydrant.html

As for the epoxy the only thing I have gathered from research is im gonna have to sand it down and do another coat :-( There are soo many that sanding each individual bubble would take forever. I wonder if another coat of epoxy would be able to cover those smooth without having to sand?

Synergy · May 25, 2012

Herb67SS said:
Ugh. That,s not good. But- it's sure a non-skid surface now. Let us know what she says!

BTW - where did that hydrant come from? Guess I'm too old to know what's available out there for new construction. I like it. Is it freeze proof?
/Herb

As a fireman I was looking for:

We don't have those types of "hydrants" on the West Coast!

LegacyIndustrial · May 25, 2012

Gas trying to push through a thick coating.
As the gas tries to escape it pushes through the thick already tacky coating, leaving a little volcano behind.

A primer reduces the chances of this happening as the primer will be thinner and allow the gas to come out without making a mess.

The good news is this shouldn't be a problem on your next coat.

MrMark · May 26, 2012

What primer should be used with the Epoxy Coat?

I would be devastated if that were my job after all the work. That is just unacceptable.

dandan111 · May 26, 2012

I think you need to knock down the sharpe edges of the bubbles. I put mine on thick and didn't get bubbles. I have dull spots though.

LegacyIndustrial · May 26, 2012

Guys, this does not happen all the time. When you do this for a living you hedge your bets every step of the way to help eliminate gobacks and recoats.

JPowles · May 26, 2012

Im about to finish the remaining half of my 3 car this afternoon. I did all the concrete prep work this morning so we will see how it goes. I should have a little left over epoxy so im going to experiment with it and see what I can do with the "craters" on the other half of the garage. I will try to knock down the edges and see how it look with some epoxy put over it. I figure it cant hurt anything and worst case I can still either leave it as is, or do another coat at some point. Atleast the hard part of prepping the concrete is done. Thats the worst part of it all.

I will post back and let you guys know how the second half goes and if I get any bubbles on that side.

Ray-CA · May 26, 2012

How did you mix the clear before applying it? Shake, stir or power mix? I've seen bubbles like that in furniture finish if I shake the can or mix instead of stirring gently.

Ray

MrMark · May 26, 2012

LegacyIndustrial said:
Guys, this does not happen all the time. When you do this for a living you hedge your bets every step of the way to help eliminate gobacks and recoats.

It may not happen all the time, but it sure seems to happen a lot. Enough that it is a major concern considering the consequences are so severe given the time and expense.

Is there a primer that can be used under the epoxy coat to stop the bubbles? What other ways are there to hedge your bets every step of the way to stop the bubbles? Please, let's not have this be some great mystery.

dandan111 · May 26, 2012

Did you clear coat it?

thegarageguy · May 26, 2012

There is never a guaranty it won't bubble, even with a good penetrating primer. Full chip broadcast will hide the fact it's bubbling. Remember, as hard as concrete is, it's still a porous substrate. This is why it stains easy and why you are trying to close the pores via epoxy.

Take a spackle knife to them and cut it flush, then go to your local hardware store and buy a 5 min epoxy in beige color. Spackle it on and clean the edges with a slightly acetone dampened rag.

LegacyIndustrial · May 26, 2012

Bout time you arrived. The whole gj forum was in an uproar!

JPowles · May 27, 2012

Well the garage is done. Besides the bubbles im happy with the results. The second half of the garage bubbled as well, but not as badly. I dont understand how they expect you to eliminate the chances of bubbles because on the second half I waited forever to spread the flakes to ensure that it wasnt going to bubble. I did multiple rollings and sure enough when I woke up this morning there were some bubbles lol.
Some people asked how I mixed it and what clear I used. I mixed using the supplied mixer that came with the Epoxy kit. Mixing had nothing to do with the bubbles, infact when you poured it onto the concrete it was smooth and bubble free. No clear coat was used it was just the standard Epoxy-Coat kit that I picked up from a local Lowes. On my previous house I used the Rustoleum kits from Home Depot which I installed on a new construction slab about the same age as my current house and there were no bubbles. I guess all concrete is different, but im kind of curious if the same thing would have happened if I used the Rustoleum kits.
Either way I guess im happy as the bubbles arent all that noticeable unless your looking for them. Im going to leave it as is and enjoy it.

Here are a couple pictures of the finished product.

Thanks for all the tips.

James

Cruzin90 · May 29, 2012

Just curious: What time of day was it when you put down the first coat?

I'm guessing it was in the morning, before 11:00 AM.

dcs Inc · May 30, 2012

Rising temps will pull moisture out of concrete. Moisture in the air will create headaches. (below 75% Rh) 50% is great. When the air temp is within 3 degrees of the relative humidity you will have problems. If there's more than 3 pounds of vapor emissions in the concrete per 1000 sq. ft., you will have problems. Oil spots will cause the epoxy to fail and just cleaning the top off doesn't do it. Acid etching is the poorest way to prep a concrete surface and on a new slab you're waisting your time. If the concrete is old and the creme has worn off showing sands, you'll have a better chance at acid etching. If the concrete tests higher pH than 9, it may (will) fail. Using a low solids epoxy with a chit load of fillers is a waste of time and effort. They don't wet well (soak into the surface), are soft and have a weak wear surface. Any open tubes of silicone or any on the concrete will create major headaches. (Tire shine, many polishes are culprits).

thats the short list. gene Elite Crete of Indiana

Cruzin90 · May 30, 2012

You mentioned temp and humidity 3 degrees apart. The temp and dew point should be 5 degrees apart.

dcs Inc · May 30, 2012

Caught me.... I stand corrected. Should have proof read my response. Actually 5 degrees is pushing it. gene

uncletater · May 30, 2012

I find it odd that Epoxy-Coat posts on this forum. Yet they have not made any comments on this topic. They push their product and tell what stores they are in and such. It looks to me that I would go with another company.

OP I would pester the **** out of Epoxy-Coat. Too much money spent to just live with it.

dcs Inc · May 30, 2012

This is application error. Any epoxy can out-gas, especially if steps were not taken to prevent it. Not knowing what to do when things go south is the wrench here. When things go right it's easy peasy. When it doesn't, it's the products fault. Not defending Epoxy-Coat because I don't think epoxies should be pushed to diy'rs at wal mart without proper training. gene

Cruzin90 · May 30, 2012

I agree with dcs 100%. Applying a coating to a substrate correctly is a lot more involved than you think.

andrewsnmorgan · May 30, 2012

Cruzin90 said:
I agree with dcs 100%. Applying a coating to a substrate correctly is a lot more involved than you think.

yup.

OneAkela · May 30, 2012

dcs Inc said:
Rising temps will pull moisture out of concrete. Moisture in the air will create headaches. (below 75% Rh) 50% is great. When the air temp is within 3 degrees of the relative humidity you will have problems. If the concrete tests higher pH than 9, it may (will) fail. thats the short list. gene Elite Crete of Indiana

To address two of the ones that you mentioned:

Would you recommend doing the work during the afternoon when the temperature is warmer?

After etching with acid, should there be just a water wash or should one also use baking soda to neutralize the acid?

MrMark · May 30, 2012

From everything I have read on here, it seems the one common denominator to the bubbles is that the job is done when it is hot and getting hotter out. Starting in the morning seems to be the killer. I am going to start about 6 at night.

That being said, I don't think anyone knows what causes the bubbles.

If you can flush enough water you can neutralize the acid bath, but you will have a severe run off issue. Safest method would be to apply baking soda both for your job and the environment .

MrMark · May 30, 2012

dcs Inc said:
This is application error. Any epoxy can out-gas, especially if steps were not taken to prevent it. Not knowing what to do when things go south is the wrench here. When things go right it's easy peasy. When it doesn't, it's the products fault. Not defending Epoxy-Coat because I don't think epoxies should be pushed to diy'rs at wal mart without proper training. gene

Please let's not be cagey here. What are the steps to prevent the bubbles? Just a list would be nice.

And, that do you do when things go south?

waxoffwaxon · May 30, 2012

Well, this is why I do not do epoxy floors anymore.

First up , always check for hydrostatic pressure in your concrete. This is the number one killer besides Hot Tire pickup. Take a few pieces of saran wrap and put it on a dry floor, duct tape so no air gets in , if you see moisture the next day, you will have issues . Do this in several spots. Also, follow directions for temp and humidity.

Make sure you etch the floor, I use a grinder (on 17 buffer or hand ), skip the acid if you can, if you do use acid, follow directions.

Let the floor dry 2 days before you put any coating down.

Then the best thing ....Dont use it. I dye all garage floors now dyes, can make any colo,r any design, can be easily fixed, I can warranty a dyed floor for up to 4 years, epoxy floor , one year not including hot tire pick up.

Hope this helps

Clint
waxoffwaxon

dcs Inc · May 30, 2012

Re: Ugh, the dreaded bubbles in my new Epoxy-Coat floor :-( Pics inside

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back up and read post # 18. I gave some of the reasons why epoxy bubbles like this. I'll elaborate a little more.

Rising temps pulls moisture out of concrete. Turn up the heat and then let it descend when you start to apply. That will push the moisture back into the concrete.

whats cagey?

Get yourself a hygrometer. (walmart, cheap) this will tell you the air temp and the moisture levels in the air. If you are approaching 75%, put a dehumidifier in the area the day before and get the humidity down. the heavy moist air pushes on the wet epoxy surface often causing "fish eyes".

Some epoxies are not user friendly and are touchy to apply.

Have your epoxy at room temp. Store it in the room for at least 24 hours before application.

Air temp and humidity levels should never be close. Make sure they are at least 5 degrees apart and separating.

Morning dew most often causes concrete to sweat. Late in the evening is when I like to apply epoxy. the temps are descending, usually the moisture is low unless theirs a storm approaching.

DON'T power wash the concrete. You are driving water deep into the surface and it will show it's ugly head when you don't want it to.

3 lbs. pressure or less. Most garages have a bunch of granular fill under the slab and this is not a problem. Poor mans test. take a piece of plastic and tape it to a prepared piece of concrete. Wait 36 or so hours and check it. If its sweating or the concrete is darker under the plastic after you have pulled it up, get a real test and find out how much. There are vapor barrier epoxies that can be applied as a primer coat also.

Speaking of primer coats. Do it. I use a thin layer to lock the slab down before applying your money coat.

No water on the concrete. I use denatured alcohol as my final wipe to pick up the fine dust. (My preference, use whatever, as long as it's not water.)

A spiked roller is always good to have if the epoxy is starting to bubble on you.
Know your work time on the epoxy. I've gotten back on the floor with spiked shoes 45 minutes after I've laid it down level out bubbles. (If chips on the floor, use a heat gun/weed burner. Pops the **** out the them and allows the epoxy to level back out. Take care of spike holes from your shoes and don't burn the epoxy.

thats off the top of my head. there's more I teach in class and if I think of them I'll put them in.

What's cagey?

Contaminates will kill ya. Clean all tools with xylene before use. wipe your spiked shoes down well. (tighten them first)

I don't use a spiked roller even though I have one available. If I see bubbles starting to form I will use either heat or lightly mist the wet surface with our Hydra Stone Reducer. this stuff lays down and slicks out epoxy pretty cool. Now it does cause for an extended drying time but when needed, you'd try about anything.

I like Elite Crete's Fast Set Epoxy. 4 hour dry time so less dust and less wait time to apply top coating. You still have a good 30 minute working time before it kicks off and not self level.

Oh, I wait around at least 2 hours after applying. ( cleaning up, loading the truck,...) I want to make sure it's good to go.

Know your epoxy, know what it does and doesn't do, have someone on speed dial if there's a problem, (my job) and follow the suggested application rules and you should never have a problem. Do the correct prep work and quit this cheap short cutting to save a buck. (Was that being cagey?) gene

JPowles · May 30, 2012

The 1st half of the garage I did before noon probably between 10 and 11. The second half I did in the evening starting at 6pm. Both days were pretty hot outside, but the concrete was as dry as can be as far as I can tell. I let it dry over night with a fan going the entire time.
Im not saying it was epoxy-coats fault by any means, but I did everything in their directions exactly. I wish their directions emphasized the possibility of bubbles a little more. Since I knew about the issue doing the second half of the garage I waited as long as I possibly could before putting the flakes down. Sure enough the bubbles ended up showing up again.

So to sum up my situation here is what I have.

-3 month old concrete slab that was etched, cleaned, and prepped as stated in the directions.
-1st half was done before noon, 2nd half was done afternoon around 6pm and both sides bubbled.
-Outside temps were 80+ degrees and I assume humidity was pretty high as well. Regardless, I was within acceptable range of the directions for applying the coat.

As of now I have trimmed off all the "craters" and made them flush with the rest of the floor. THis took two days to do since there were hundreds of them. The results are acceptable I guess and not too noticeable unless your on your knees. I would imagine if I want a perfect floor im going to have to now apply another coat on top of this one. That would mean buying another two full kits which im not sure I want to do.
Again, im not blaming the product, but in my defense I certainlmy followed the directions exactly. At my other home I used Home Depots Rustoleum kit on a 3 month old slab as well with excellent results.

James

MrMark · May 30, 2012

dcs Inc said:
Re: Ugh, the dreaded bubbles in my new Epoxy-Coat floor :-( Pics inside

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back up and read post # 18. I gave some of the reasons why epoxy bubbles like this. I'll elaborate a little more.

Rising temps pulls moisture out of concrete. Turn up the heat and then let it descend when you start to apply. That will push the moisture back into the concrete.

whats cagey?

Get yourself a hygrometer. (walmart, cheap) this will tell you the air temp and the moisture levels in the air. If you are approaching 75%, put a dehumidifier in the area the day before and get the humidity down. the heavy moist air pushes on the wet epoxy surface often causing "fish eyes".

Some epoxies are not user friendly and are touchy to apply.

Have your epoxy at room temp. Store it in the room for at least 24 hours before application.

Air temp and humidity levels should never be close. Make sure they are at least 5 degrees apart and separating.

Morning dew most often causes concrete to sweat. Late in the evening is when I like to apply epoxy. the temps are descending, usually the moisture is low unless theirs a storm approaching.

DON'T power wash the concrete. You are driving water deep into the surface and it will show it's ugly head when you don't want it to.

3 lbs. pressure or less. Most garages have a bunch of granular fill under the slab and this is not a problem. Poor mans test. take a piece of plastic and tape it to a prepared piece of concrete. Wait 36 or so hours and check it. If its sweating or the concrete is darker under the plastic after you have pulled it up, get a real test and find out how much. There are vapor barrier epoxies that can be applied as a primer coat also.

Speaking of primer coats. Do it. I use a thin layer to lock the slab down before applying your money coat.

No water on the concrete. I use denatured alcohol as my final wipe to pick up the fine dust. (My preference, use whatever, as long as it's not water.)

A spiked roller is always good to have if the epoxy is starting to bubble on you.
Know your work time on the epoxy. I've gotten back on the floor with spiked shoes 45 minutes after I've laid it down level out bubbles. (If chips on the floor, use a heat gun/weed burner. Pops the **** out the them and allows the epoxy to level back out. Take care of spike holes from your shoes and don't burn the epoxy.

thats off the top of my head. there's more I teach in class and if I think of them I'll put them in.

What's cagey?

Contaminates will kill ya. Clean all tools with xylene before use. wipe your spiked shoes down well. (tighten them first)

I don't use a spiked roller even though I have one available. If I see bubbles starting to form I will use either heat or lightly mist the wet surface with our Hydra Stone Reducer. this stuff lays down and slicks out epoxy pretty cool. Now it does cause for an extended drying time but when needed, you'd try about anything.

I like Elite Crete's Fast Set Epoxy. 4 hour dry time so less dust and less wait time to apply top coating. You still have a good 30 minute working time before it kicks off and not self level.

Oh, I wait around at least 2 hours after applying. ( cleaning up, loading the truck,...) I want to make sure it's good to go.

Know your epoxy, know what it does and doesn't do, have someone on speed dial if there's a problem, (my job) and follow the suggested application rules and you should never have a problem. Do the correct prep work and quit this cheap short cutting to save a buck. (Was that being cagey?) gene

Gene, thank you!

I am going to bookmark this. This is the best and probably the first post on here that really helps the average guy with the epoxy job.

dcs Inc · May 30, 2012

Your welcome. I'm really not on here to push my products without becoming certified to install them. I just feel that these "kits" sold do more harm than good. (It actually helps the guy out there trying to make a living applying.) It's really not as easy as a few who would like to sell you their little kits with the stir sticks and pair of neoprene gloves exclaim. Your buying fluff, but hey, some guys want their hands held. Better products, better service, 24-7 support is the name of the game. gene

LegacyIndustrial · May 30, 2012

Gene:

Kudos on the remarks. It should be made permanent for all to reference.

It should also be mentioned that these are things that can potentially happen and it takes experience to recognize when they are more likely to occur or not.

By and large, when you consider the volume that Epoxy-Coat, Wolverine, Legacy Industrial, etc... pumps out every year, across the US, the instances of bubbles, fish-eyes, and other install anomalies are very rare. Of course, when it happens to you it's no fun.

Frankly, we have more trouble with freight carriers than we do with customers having application issues.

JPowles · May 30, 2012

Thanks for all the input guys this is all very informative stuff.

My last question to you guys that know all about this stuff. If someday I decided I want to add another coat to my garage, will I need to do anything to the floor or simply apply another coat? I went over my entire floor and cut off the craters so they are all perfectly flush now. Even though its bare concrete where the bubble was (and most with a small hole in the concrete where it let air out), will another epoxy coat cover this right up or do you think more air will come right out of these sand pebble sized holes and possibly create another bubble exactly where the old ones were?

dcs Inc · May 30, 2012

You will need to degloss it. (Sander) clean real well and then recoat. I always do a clear top coat over a chip application. This encapsulates the flakes. You will find that they will start to come loose after a while. Oh, those holes will disappear. As far as a repeat of the bubbles, most likely not as you have primed the concrete well. Just watch the conditions around you when you decide to do so.

thegarageguy · May 30, 2012

waxoffwaxon said:
Well, this is why I do not do epoxy floors anymore.

I dye all garage floors now dyes, can make any colo,r any design, can be easily fixed, I can warranty a dyed floor for up to 4 years, epoxy floor , one year not including hot tire pick up.

Hope this helps

Clint
waxoffwaxon

Please help me understand.....what do you seal your dyed garage floors with?

AlphaGarage · May 31, 2012

Applying the first layer while the temps are falling mitigates a lot of the bubble risk, at least that's the case with our BondTite primer. If bubbles do occur generally they're very small and have zero effect on the rest of the application or product durability. Every now and then there will be a larger bubble, large enough that its profile might push up through the topcoat and clearcoat. If that's the case we recommend just sanding it down before applying the top coat.

They do make "porcupine" or "pin" rollers, which look like they sound, and rolling them over a bubble rich coating (while it's still wet of course) will pop the bubbles. Don't know how well they work because we just don't experience the bubble issue often.

dcs Inc · May 31, 2012

ONE ADDED NOTE: Don't whip the epoxy into a froth when mixing. A slow speed drill is the only way to go. Scrape the side walls and the bottom of the mixing bucket with a paint stick. When pouring out on the floor, stop pouring when the stream breaks into drips. Don't turn the bucket over or scrape the sides to get the last drop out.

Most all air bubbles start out very small. they are attracted to each other as they make their way to freedom and form larger bubbles. A warm whisk of heat over the top of these bubbles lowers the surface tension and allows the bubbles to not work so hard for their freedom.

Take this as a visual example: A 1000 sq. ft. area that has a 3 pound vapor emission reading (which is the limit to most epoxies) equates to a quart of water per 24 hours escaping through the concrete.

Primer coats, normally applied at a very thin mil thickness have less of a chance trapping air bubbles. Water based epoxy primers are extremely resistant to these problems.

LegacyIndustrial · May 31, 2012

Gene:

Important to note that the thick 100% solids coating with a relatively short pot life is part of the problem. As the bubble tries to escape it is more or less captured by the coating itself.

Like you mentioned, the thinner primers don't have this issue, the bubble makes it's way through before the coating has skinned.

detroadster · May 31, 2012

LegacyIndustrial said:
Gene:

Kudos on the remarks. It should be made permanent for all to reference

+1. Such a great write up! :bowdown:

Ugh, the dreaded bubbles in my new Epoxy-Coat floor :-( Pics inside

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