My take on an electrolysis tank!

jrlp · Jul 29, 2012

Well, I finally got around to making one. I decided to go smallish and went with the Rubbermade Brute in 20 gallons. I went in a different direction when it came to anode selection, as most people use rebar. I figure the more surface area the faster it will work.. so I went with 3" wide 1/8" thick flat stock. I had some laying around, so I went with 6 in total. I used 1"x1"x.125" angle iron for the rest. Welded it open v-grove on the ends of the angle to give it a lip to hold the edge of the can with and get full penetration. The crossbeam to support items etc was made with the same 1"x1"x.125" angle, with little boxes made to hold the lip on both sides, inside and out. I did that by nesting the angle inside each other, so one side is 1/8" shorter than the other, but that's fine since I put the shorter end facing inwards.

I found a small Craftsman 8Amp DC charger at a pawnshop I got for 20 out the door and hooked it up, SUCESS. I put this VERY OLD leg vise (blacksmithing?) my girlfriend's grandfather gave me. Took it apart and shoved the head in the container. So far, in about 45 minutes, I pulled it and the sharp edges around the vise are already 100% clean and rust free.. this thing is going fast. The charger is pushing 8A constant, so I guess that's a good thing!

Hopefully the amount of surface area it has will help go longer without cleaning the anodes and be faster than most. Some quick math is 66 square inches per anode (3" wide by 22" tall), and there's 6 so 396 square inches if filled to the top!

Picture time!!! (I really need a better image host, any ideas?)

I took pictures then realized I hooked the wires up wrong :/ I plan on hard mounting the positive and negative leads to the handle area, so the wires are out of the way completely.. but I ran out of light just as I got it running. It's been running for around 2 hours now, I'll get some pictures in another 2!

Does the ammeter go down as the anodes get dirty / item runs out of rust? Should I mix the water to make sure the washing soda is completely disolved? Or skim the top when it gets nasty? I think with as much surface area as I have compared to others (For instance: Puhpud's very nice build I based mine off of.. He used 5 5/8" rebar in the same size container I did, so we'll say 22" as well.. should be around ~215 square inches.. but only half that if you figure only the front half of the rebar gets used in line of sight (107.5 sq. in.) mine is almost 4 times as much area line of sight..)

Any questions, comments, concerns, tips, tricks, or banter is greatly appreciated!

e30bradley · Jul 29, 2012

looks sweet. I've never used electrolysis before but if I do I'm defiantly going to copy this. Nice :thumbup:

Jtoddaz · Jul 30, 2012

I have a similar setup, but use rebar, and only have them one one half the container. This way I can lean wrenches, etc against the other side. A couple things I've noticed over my recent sessions:

- I notice a decrease in efficacy after 48 hours or a couple rounds of tools, fresh water does the trick.

- I use a slotted base in the bottom to allow for settling of the gunk. I bought mine at Auto geek.com. It is used so dirt falls to the bottom when you wash your car.

-DON'T buy the small alligator clips. Buy the big ones. Trying to link rebar or multiple tools with the small clips was very frustrating!

-I do stir in the washing soda prior to starting

-if you notice a decrease in efficacy, try scrubbing the anodes below the water. They can gunk up, sometimes this will buy me an extra day before switching the water.

-I need to try some carbon anodes, just haven't made the jump, as I have no idea where to buy locally.

Hope that helps a bit. I'm a relative newbie to this.

sanddrag · Jul 30, 2012

I have a similar setup with three 3x1/4" flat bars, a 30something gallon trashcan (industrial/institutional kind), and a 50A 12V power supply. When the bars were new, the 10ga wires and aligator clips would get HOT indicating it was pulling quite a bit of current. The bubbles were really going! However, it does really taper off the more the electrodes get crusty.

hammertime1 · Jul 30, 2012

I am working on a set up meself. I was thinking carbon arrows or crossbow bolts since they are fatter. I was wondering if with them
Being able to be exposed inside and out if it would be enough surface area at least for small items. I have a bunch of both I can sacrifice. I looked at some plates on eBay and esleehere and far more then I wanted to spend. Hopefully this week can get my set up
Finsihed.

Outlawmws · Jul 30, 2012

hammertime1 said:
I am working on a set up meself. I was thinking carbon arrows or crossbow bolts since they are fatter. I was wondering if with them
Being able to be exposed inside and out if it would be enough surface area at least for small items. I have a bunch of both I can sacrifice. I looked at some plates on eBay and esleehere and far more then I wanted to spend. Hopefully this week can get my set up
Finsihed.

I'm not at all sure those arrows will work. My understanding is you need Graphite and not a graphite epoxy composite. :dunno:

jrlp · Jul 30, 2012

Jtoddaz said:
I have a similar setup, but use rebar, and only have them one one half the container. This way I can lean wrenches, etc against the other side. A couple things I've noticed over my recent sessions:

- I notice a decrease in efficacy after 48 hours or a couple rounds of tools, fresh water does the trick.

- I use a slotted base in the bottom to allow for settling of the gunk. I bought mine at Auto geek.com. It is used so dirt falls to the bottom when you wash your car.

-DON'T buy the small alligator clips. Buy the big ones. Trying to link rebar or multiple tools with the small clips was very frustrating!

-I do stir in the washing soda prior to starting

-if you notice a decrease in efficacy, try scrubbing the anodes below the water. They can gunk up, sometimes this will buy me an extra day before switching the water.

-I need to try some carbon anodes, just haven't made the jump, as I have no idea where to buy locally.

Hope that helps a bit. I'm a relative newbie to this.

Great points, it helps quite a bit! 50A power supply must really MOVE things! The can I bought has a raised floor, and the outside has a ring that's maybe 1-2" deep that's directly below the anodes (and are partially inside). My problem currently is connecting the items to be cleaned to the cross member. I used 1x1x.125 angle iron. I forgot to hit it with a grinder to clean off millscale etc,, so I had to rub the copper wires (some 12g solid strand) back and forth to get a connection, I ended up taking a 12" ******* file to a few areas to get a connection. Tomorrow if I have time I'll pull it, and grind it clean, then spray on some rust preventative that won't interfere with electrical connections. I may run a 1" tube of stainless across the top.. as I don't think the typical warnings of hexavalent chromium apply if it's not in the electrolyte bath.. and I deal with it on a nearly daily basis tig welding stainless. I'll figure it out when I have a bit of time to play with it. I got started at around 6:30pm and was makin' bubbles by 8, including wrestling with my stock area and damn near getting smooshed under a 10' section of 5x5x.25 and some 4" channel.. heh.

Since some people are welders, Miller Passport running 100% co2, v7 ws40. I'd say around 22v and ~140A through .035" solid. Nice 100% pen on all joints.

I may still make a different anode setup built on a basket type framework with bolted anodes which would probably be carbon if I do it again. I wonder if we could just use un-resined carbon fiber SHEET and just wrap it around a wire mesh framework to get 100% anode coverage on the bottom / sides of a trash can... it would quite possibly be the cheapest way to do it.. not sure how/if it would work, though.

Jtoddaz · Jul 30, 2012

I just attach the clip to the tool and drop it into the tank. It's not the prettiest way, but it works. FYI, you won't get any rust or reaction if the negative end is in the water. Just don't ask me why.

This may help as a short term solution if your having trouble getting a connection through your cross bar.

Alchymist · Jul 30, 2012

Yep, pretty fancy. But even plain and simple works. I think you get better results with lower current and longer time. JMHO. And I don't use anything in the water - this is the results of water right from the tap.

Outlawmws · Jul 30, 2012

Jtoddaz said:
I just attach the clip to the tool and drop it into the tank. It's not the prettiest way, but it works. FYI, you won't get any rust or reaction if the negative end is in the water. Just don't ask me why.

This may help as a short term solution if your having trouble getting a connection through your cross bar.

If you drop the clip into the soup you will also be removing the plating, and eventually the base material, adding heavy metals to the soup. Then you have a hazardous material to dispose of...

If you aren't getting continuity, wire wheel the contact points and use iron wire for the "hooks" to hang the part from...

Outlawmws · Jul 30, 2012

Alchymist said:
Yep, pretty fancy. But even plain and simple works. I think you get better results with lower current and longer time. JMHO. And I don't use anything in the water - this is the results of water right from the tap.

You must have very alkaline water to start with... :wtf:

And I agree low and slow works best.

DekeT · Jul 30, 2012

6 volts @ 10 amps is more than enough to power even a 100 gallon electrolysis tank. The mixture is what is more important. I use about a cup of sodium carbonate(arm and hammer powder) for every 5 gallons of water.

jrlp · Jul 30, 2012

I used 1 table spoon per gallon. I put 17 gallons of water in. I found the powder stuff, but it was from Mexico.. I am having some trouble with the vise, it seems the joint where it hinges won't pass current. Unfortunately I didn't notice it until I checked on it today. Half of the vise is now rust free, the other half still rusty.. I think I'm going to pull 5 gallons of water/**** out, and put 5 gallons of fresh water in.

Outlawmws · Jul 30, 2012

jrlp said:
I used 1 table spoon per gallon. I put 17 gallons of water in. I found the powder stuff, but it was from Mexico.. I am having some trouble with the vise, it seems the joint where it hinges won't pass current. Unfortunately I didn't notice it until I checked on it today. Half of the vise is now rust free, the other half still rusty.. I think I'm going to pull 5 gallons of water/**** out, and put 5 gallons of fresh water in.

There is nothing wrong with the "water" you don't need to change it, only add more water as it evaporates.

If you are having continuity problems with one part to another, run a second iron wire to the offending part, or wire wheel part of it and simply "short" from the rust free part to the rusty part...

If the setup is going slower, then pull then anodes out and give them a rough wire brushing off, (it doesn't have to be perfect...)

jrlp · Jul 30, 2012

Since my anodes are flat stock, I cut a 5" long piece of it, and mounted a handle on it. I use it as a scraper to clean the anodes. I just finished doing it, in fact, and probably removed a pound of the nastiest black/red goop I've ever seen off of them in a few seconds. The vise is pretty much done with exception of 2' of leg that was sticking up. The screw/handle, the washer/bushing and a very old ****** block are in the bath now. Going to wait til all the parts are done tomorrow to wire brush them all off. I did a small section with a ss brush and a 3m finishing pad, and it was shiny metal with a dull patina. I think I like that mild blackish / red patina that shows after a few swipes with the finishing pad! May just oil it after removing most of the loose stuff and not bother wire wheeling it.

Next up some fjz80 front end parts that sat for too long. I'm going to stick 'em in a plastic mesh bag made from window screen or something.

Should I be scooping the real nasty floating stuff off the top of the water? When should I dump the whole can of water out and start over? Or should I dump half, then refill it with more water/washing soda?

Outlawmws · Jul 30, 2012

jrlp said:
SNIP
Should I be scooping the real nasty floating stuff off the top of the water? When should I dump the whole can of water out and start over? Or should I dump half, then refill it with more water/washing soda?

You can scrap the worst of the scum off (its tricky as you tend to chase it) but I keep using the water, other than to add water, until I'm going to park it for a while. (I'm on the same "water" for the past 7-8 months now...)

I had a piece of plastic packaging that I clipped one corner off as a drain to "scoop" the gunk off, you can give that a try of maybe a fine mesh net might work... Spoons, scoops and the like don't work worth a darn.

jrlp · Jul 31, 2012

Thanks for all the tips Outlaw. It seems to be running great now. I actually had bought 2 chargers for this at a pawn shop. Each was $20, US made, and had a max of 8A. Well, I just tied them together. Each one is pushing 8-9A (measured) depending on how much stuff I have in there. I had an fjz80 knuckle, a 4.5t ****** block, and a fjz80 stub axle housing in there (approx. ~70lb) and it was maxed out at 9A each @ 12v. With just the a small part, each was pushing 1-2A. I do have a modified computer power supply I used for R/C chargers and electronics projects, I'm trying to remember how much power it could push (and where it is?? lol). If I remember right, it could do 12v @ 30A.. maybe more. I know newer computer power supplies UNDER $100 can do 50A+ without breaking a sweat.. decisions decisions! I wonder if there comes a time where extra current doesn't speed the process and only adds heat to the water..

nine4gmc · Jul 31, 2012

I have read that 3 amps is about the best average for electrolysis, lets hear what others say

jrlp · Jul 31, 2012

Well, I just found my converted atx power supply. It can do 5v @ 40A or 12v at 18A. I think it would be a better than currently running 2 battery chargers.. but I'll see what others say. I just checked with my meter, each one is around 70% efficient, and pushing 7A @ 12.5v. Most of the items I've done so far are big with lots of surface area, and I'm doing 3-4 at a time. I have enough parts I need to do that will keep me busy for weeks!

jrlp · Jul 31, 2012

Got a few more pictures today and a bit more work.

It was designed so that the plates could be removed and cleaned without stopping.. thanks to Puhpud's design!

You can really see it bubbling @ 16A

And the vise I'm trying to clean up!

No information on it but I'm hoping to clean it up! It was a gift from my girlfriend's grandfather and it was the first thing I decided to clean!

DekeT · Jul 31, 2012

nine4gmc said:
I have read that 3 amps is about the best average for electrolysis, lets hear what others say

I agree low amperage is much better than the 50 amps some on here are trying to push through. As I mentioned before it is a matter of getting your liquid to conduct current. It does not take much voltage or current. Anything more than 5-6 amps in my opinion is just wasting energy.

I have a 100 gallon tank and put several things in at the same time. I use 12volts at under 10 amps. It it loosens all the paint and derusts in less than a day.

3 amps seem low. Do you have a link to that?

Outlawmws · Jul 31, 2012

jrip, you would probably be fine with just one of the chargers, assuming they are transformer chargers. Question: are these transformer chargers or Solid state? Transformers will be relatively heavy, SS light... If SS, you may have inadvertently discovered how to trick them into working constantly for an E tank.

That vise is a Blacksmiths post vise. forged steel not cast, so VERY strong and able to take a beating. the post transfers the shock to the ground, so the bench it would be attached to does nor bear the brunt. It's missing the bench mount bracket, but you can use a piece of angle and a U bolt to replace, and it's missing a return spring, which could be either a heavy wire spring, or a leaf type. The spring is held in place in both cases by the U bolt. Google image "Blacksmiths post vise" for examples.

jrlp · Jul 31, 2012

Outlawmws said:
jrip, you would probably be fine with just one of the chargers, assuming they are transformer chargers. Question: are these transformer chargers or Solid state? Transformers will be relatively heavy, SS light... If SS, you may have inadvertently discovered how to trick them into working constantly for an E tank.

That vise is a Blacksmiths post vise. forged steel not cast, so VERY strong and able to take a beating. the post transfers the shock to the ground, so the bench it would be attached to does nor bear the brunt. It's missing the bench mount bracket, but you can use a piece of angle and a U bolt to replace, and it's missing a return spring, which could be either a heavy wire spring, or a leaf type. The spring is held in place in both cases by the U bolt. Google image "Blacksmiths post vise" for examples.

Hi,

Both of the chargers are USA made transformer based ones. I pulled them apart, burnished all the contacts, put dielectric grease everywhere, then buttoned them up. I figured I'm going to be splashing water on them constantly, might as well give them a chance to live! I actually have the bench mount bracket and spring which is a leaf type. When I posted that, those pieces were in the tank. At 16A, it seemed to clean BIG things quite a bit faster, but I think the water temps at 4am were close to 130F.. so quite a bit of that is being wasted as heat.

Outlawmws · Jul 31, 2012

DekeT said:
I agree low amperage is much better than the 50 amps some on here are trying to push through. As I mentioned before it is a matter of getting your liquid to conduct current. It does not take much voltage or current. Anything more than 5-6 amps in my opinion is just wasting energy.

I have a 100 gallon tank and put several things in at the same time. I use 12volts at under 10 amps. It it loosens all the paint and derusts in less than a day.

3 amps seem low. Do you have a link to that?

My big charger varies its output depending on the load, and will usually taper off to about an amp pretty quickly. I've also used a small 1 amp trickle charger but I may have killed it doing so.

All the archeology/university/museum users of Electrolysis go low and slow. very slow, as doing it fast can have detrimental effects. :dunno:

The larger surface are you are trying to do the more power you will need however. if you were doing say an engine block, or a truck frame, I could see the need for 50A. for the bucket sized parts most of us are doing 5-6 amps should be more than enough.

The guys that have reported on using computer PS for this seem to smoke the PS over time. Not sure why, but it seems consistent. Everyone I've read about using one goes looking for a battery charger or larger bench power supply eventually.

nine4gmc · Jul 31, 2012

DekeT said:
3 amps seem low. Do you have a link to that?

I read it here(GJ) somewhere. Maybe the "Everything you need to know about electrolysis" thread?

Alchymist · Jul 31, 2012

Mine runs about 2 amps or a little over when it starts, then gradually tapers off to about 1. When it falls below 1 it's usually done. I then change the water (easier than cleaning the scum), reorient the part if needed and run it again. Usually 2 trips for most stuff. I let it run overnight and the water is not even warm. Measured volts is about 13 while running.

jrlp · Aug 1, 2012

Hmm, my setup pulls almost as many amps as I can feed it. I do have huge surface area though (400 sq/in) to volume (20 gallons). If I use one charger, it pulls 8, with 2 it pulls over 16!

wrench · Aug 1, 2012

I have 2 tanks.One is a 6 gallon plastic tank from a beer making kit,and the other is a 55 gal.plastic drum laid on its side with a large opening in the top side. I used 1/2" square bar stock in the big tank as the anodes.They are behind fiberglass window screen to prevent contact with the parts being derusted. I have used the small tank for several years,and usually have somthing "cooking" in it. I seldom change the water,it gets pretty nasty,but seems to work OK.I buy my sodium carbonate at the pool supply store. I also hook a 12v battery up to the anodes,then hook my charger to the battery.

All · Aug 22, 2013

Why do you do that wrench?

So the current remains constant regardless of the regulated charger output?

Or what?

Boog · Aug 22, 2013

I have a 5 gal pail setup almost exactly like this, I used rebar though. My larger tank just recently cracked apart, so I'll be making a new one fairly soon. I will be borrowing several of your ideas. Nice work!,

lilredex · Aug 22, 2013

Low current and lots of time work best for me. If you have an ammeter on your battery charger, you'll see the current draw increase the closer your work is moved in towards the anode (piece of junk railing).

My take on an electrolysis tank!

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