Options for insulating...Need opinions

a91sportyc · Dec 11, 2012

Hello everyone! this is my first post. Needed some advice and after searching the internet, I found this forum. I think it is awesome when a group of good people come together and help each other out. I am glad to be part of your group and hopefully I can offer some help to others!

I recently purchased a house that has a detached 24 x 32 garage, not insulated. I am in the process of having a gas line run to the garage so that I can heat it during the winters with a hanging Garage furnace/heater. I live in North Eastern Ohio and plan to keep the garage minimum of 45-50 degrees and warmer when it's occupied by me. I am not sure of the type of build it is but it appears to be what is known at a pole building or pole barn (I can post pics if needed). My plan is to stud the walls, insulate, and put some type of ceiling in it (10 ft. high with 2 ft. O.C. 2x4's). The entire building is constructed out of wood. The list of questions below are what I have come up with so far...

With the structure being built out of wood (walls, roof, ect.), Do I have to worry about the whole vapor barrier issue when I insulate and heat?

If my existing poles are 4x6, how do I go about studding the walls with 2x4's? I am undecided whether I am going to cover the walls with anything after insulated, maybe down the road. Setting up the 2x4's, do I leave the gap toward the outer wall or flush the studs up against the outer wall and leave the gap between the inner wall covering?

Hanging a ceiling, what would be the best material to use? Plywood, Drywall, OSD? I plan on installing Batt Insulation in the ceiling and storing very minimal things up there (nothing with any kind of weight). Is hanging the ceiling a weight concern on the roof trusses? I have heard people talking about finding out what the trusses are rated for. Could I just put up styrofoam board?

Where would I start, on the walls or on the ceiling? I've had people tell me start with the ceiling and others say to start with the walls. I assumed the ceiling should be first to go up.

I have searched alot of threads and everybodys situation seems to be different.

Fun pain · Dec 11, 2012

I am not sure if my few post quilifies me to Welcome you, but oh well

Welcome to the Forum!!!!

I live in Crestline, Ohio (near mansfield)

There are a few places around here that sell 4' and 8' wide insulation for pole buildings so you wouldn't have to stud anything..

Vapor barrier only if you know you have it under the concrete, from my experience in a garage, if you vapor barrier the walls and ceiling and non under the slab, then the building can only dry out when the door is open, fine in the winter NOT in the summer... here in zone 6 (cold climate), the moisture from the ground will go right through your concrete and into your cars and tools.

Ceiling should be First, especially since you are heating the air.

Ceilings have been a common topic on here "search", many possiblities, I am using fomular 150 1", glued to 1/2" drywall, for my 24" oc ceiling with 18" of blown cellulose on top. This will reduce most thermal bridgeing from inside the enclosure to the trusses and cellulose.

DPelletier · Dec 11, 2012

Definitely put in the vapor barrier or you'll have potential moisture problems

gap to the outside.

I would frame the walls, install all the insulation and vapor barrier, then sheet. OSB, Drywall or plywood all have thier plusses and minuses; drywall means taping and sanding but it's fireproof, plywood is strongest but more expensive than OSB. Depends on budget, useage and personal preference.

Dave

ForceFed70 · Dec 11, 2012

I would install vapor barrier.

As for framing... why not frame the outer walls with 2x6? Then you don't have to worry about a gap and you can put thicker batts of insulation in there. Typically with 2x4 batts you get something around R13 and with 2x6 you get R20.

For the ceiling load: That is a tricky one. I'd gather as much information as you can and speak to a truss designer to see if he/she can guestimate the load bearing capabilities. Being that you are in ohio, your trusses should have been designed to cary a heavy snow load and I would *think* handle the weight of a ceiling. I really doubt you'll be able to use it for storage tho. What is the truss spaceing?

DPelletier · Dec 11, 2012

It may not be ideal, but another option would be to use 2x4 framing and 6" insulation; most of the insulation benefit without the expense of 2x6 framing.

I'd have a hard time believing that the trusses are so weak and underdesigned that they couldn't take a drywall ceiling...but who knows, I guess.

Dave

ForceFed70 · Dec 11, 2012

DPelletier said:
It may not be ideal, but another option would be to use 2x4 framing and 6" insulation; most of the insulation benefit without the expense of 2x6 framing.

I'd have a hard time believing that the trusses are so weak and underdesigned that they couldn't take a drywall ceiling...but who knows, I guess.

Dave

Yes, I suppose that 2x4 framing with 2x6 insulation would work although air movement might lower the R value a little. The cost between 2x4 and 2x6 isn't a lot tho and I just don't see it being worth it. Especially when you consider the implications to wiring afterwords (nailing plates required, etc).

Some pole barn trusses are only designed to hold the weight of the roof and that's it. Often they are spaced as much as 8' apart. So yes, the weight of drywall can be a problem. I agree tho, It's unlikely the OP would experience a failure.

Keep in mind tho that 5/8" drywall (what most people use for ceilings) typically weighs in at 2.2lb per square foot. That's 1670lbs for a 24x32 ceiling. Not to mention the weight of the framing that will be added, mud, tape, insulation, electrical wiring and fixtures, etc. He'll easily be up to 3000lbs (or more) by the time everything is said and done.

Falcon67 · Dec 11, 2012

In spite of the piece weight, drywall should cstill ome in at 2~3 lb/sq ft. If the trusses are rated for a minimal 5 lb/sq ft you'd be good. If not - then maybe just insulation and a plastic sheet. My old shop used exposed batts with no issues over 12 years.

DPelletier · Dec 11, 2012

ForceFed70 said:
Some pole barn trusses are only designed to hold the weight of the roof and that's it. Often they are spaced as much as 8' apart. So yes, the weight of drywall can be a problem. I agree tho, It's unlikely the OP would experience a failure.

Keep in mind tho that 5/8" drywall (what most people use for ceilings) typically weighs in at 2.2lb per square foot. That's 1670lbs for a 24x32 ceiling. Not to mention the weight of the framing that will be added, mud, tape, insulation, electrical wiring and fixtures, etc. He'll easily be up to 3000lbs (or more) by the time everything is said and done.

Obviously, I have no idea what the trusses were designed for, but what I can tell you is that code here has a snow load of 30.5 lbs per sq. ft. for your basic 4/12 pitch roof which (taking into acount for overhangs) is over 30,000 lbs for that size a shop. If it's gonna fall down due to adding a drywall ceiling, I'd suggest that it is WAY too fragile for it's own good!

Dave

DPelletier · Dec 11, 2012

...as far as the 2x4 vs. 2x6 thing goes, I dont' know if it's worth it or not but it wouldn't even be noticable when complete. I'd use steel studs anyways, but then, I'm a metal kinda guy.

Dave

ForceFed70 · Dec 11, 2012

DPelletier said:
Obviously, I have no idea what the trusses were designed for, but what I can tell you is that code here has a snow load of 30.5 lbs per sq. ft. for your basic 4/12 pitch roof which (taking into acount for overhangs) is over 30,000 lbs for that size a shop. If it's gonna fall down due to adding a drywall ceiling, I'd suggest that it is WAY too fragile for it's own good!

Dave

You do understand the difference between snow load and bottom cord/ceiling load right? Just because the top cord can support 30lbs/sqft doesn't mean the bottom cord can. In fact, I guarantee the bottom cord will be rated for much less.

However, I still agree that it's likely the trusses will support the load fine as you'll notice that I made the snow load point in my 1st post and it's likely that any truss that can support that kind of a snow load will likely support a ceiling, etc. BUT, we know nothing about his trusses, the roofing material, the pitch, when it was built, if it was properly engineered, etc so the smart thing to do would be to caution the OP to get a proper assesment before putting a bunch of weight up there.

Fun pain · Dec 12, 2012

don't use 5 1/2" insulation in a 3 1/2" wall.... you will be making the insulation act like less then r-13 3 1/2" insulation.

that r-19/r-20 value is only if it is 5 1/2" deep... collapsing it will become closer to the r value of GLASS almost non...

R-19 in a 3 1/2" depth is less then R-13...

fiberglass insulation has been installed improperly since it was invented..

Fun pain · Dec 12, 2012

Vapor Barrier I explained this in the second post but I will go on the expensive side and join the others and say go ahead and Vapor Barrier the walls and ceiling.

without knowing what your floor is doing.

and Never air condition the garage in the 95+ summers we have, with high humidity

If you do then you will build condensation in the insulation and mold begins.

but you can install an air handler (running almost all the time)to exchange the humid summer air and all the moisture coming from the vapor barrierless concrete.

So with a Vapor Barrier, you want to run an air handler or keep the doors open, in the spring, summer, fall.

OR Don't and let the building dry inward and outward, and no air handler needed, and you can
air condition in the summer

You won't need anything probably in the spring and fall, to be comfortable

If I lived where forcedfed70 lives (canada), I would because they don't have summers like here in ohio.... heater in the morning and a/c in the afternoon here in ohio...

I am installing xps on my ceiling glued to dry wall and xps is a vapor retarder but not a barrier meaning it will let vapor pass but not easily and it doesn't hold it back

DPelletier · Dec 12, 2012

ForceFed70 said:
You do understand the difference between snow load and bottom cord/ceiling load right? Just because the top cord can support 30lbs/sqft doesn't mean the bottom cord can. In fact, I guarantee the bottom cord will be rated for much less.

However, I still agree that it's likely the trusses will support the load fine as you'll notice that I made the snow load point in my 1st post and it's likely that any truss that can support that kind of a snow load will likely support a ceiling, etc. BUT, we know nothing about his trusses, the roofing material, the pitch, when it was built, if it was properly engineered, etc so the smart thing to do would be to caution the OP to get a proper assesment before putting a bunch of weight up there.

Yep, I understand all that but I stick with my thought that (while it's prudent to go ahead and check assuming that information is available and you don't need to pay a structural engineer to do it) that the load of a ceiling on the bottom truss cord is a) relatively insignificant and b) should have been designed into the truss. Personally, If it was mine, I wouldn't hesitate or worry about it in the slightest. If it cant take a couple thousand pounds over the entire ceiling then someone screwed up badly.

Dave

DPelletier · Dec 12, 2012

Fun pain said:
don't use 5 1/2" insulation in a 3 1/2" wall.... you will be making the insulation act like less then r-13 3 1/2" insulation.

that r-19/r-20 value is only if it is 5 1/2" deep... collapsing it will become closer to the r value of GLASS almost non...

R-19 in a 3 1/2" depth is less then R-13...

fiberglass insulation has been installed improperly since it was invented..

I wasn't talking about compressing 5.5" insulation to 3.5", I was talking about using 3.5" deep studs to frame the wall which would give you a gap of 2" between the back of the wall and the outer sheathing. ...the thicker insulation will work fine and offer increased R value in this case.

Dave

STINEY · Dec 12, 2012

Fun pain said:
I live in Crestline, Ohio (near mansfield)

There are a few places around here that sell 4' and 8' wide insulation for pole buildings so you wouldn't have to stud anything..

Welcome to the forum also neighbor! We are probably within 20 miles of each other.

What places do you know of that sell the 4' and 8' insulation? Is it foamboard, batts, etc?

You nailed it on the vapor barrior..... there seems to be lots of confusion on the topic, seems to me it boils down to this:

In the South (hot) = vapor barrior on the outside of insulation.

In the North (cold) = vapor barrior on the inside of insulation.

In the Middle (wild temps swings often) = choose your poison. Often more insulation and no vapor barrior would be the best option.

Highbeam · Dec 12, 2012

The thing about a vapor barrier is that is is also an air seal to keep your heated/cooled air in the garage. It is at least as important to keep the conditioned air in the space as it is to prevent thermal loss via radiation and conduction.

Some wall coverings can be pretty dang good at air sealing like a properly taped sheetrock layer but often, in the garage, you will see things like OSB and corrugated metal that do not seal air very well and in that case the poly layer will keep your heated air in the garage.

I am sticking between the poles of my pole barn now. I used true 6x8" posts and with a 2x6 wall will have an extra 2.5" behind the wall studs. I plan to fill this space with FG batts even if that means compressing the thick batts slightly.

Oh and my poles are 12 feet apart. So truss spacing is 12 feet and the trusses were spec'd out to have a 10 lb per SF dead load attached to the bottom of the truss.

vartz04 · Dec 12, 2012

insulation and then cover the ceiling with the reflectix bubble wrap stuff. Or use 1/2" foil faced foam board (about 5-6 lbs a 4x8 sheet) and then you get good light reflection as well as an extra R3.3 of insulation.

Fun pain · Dec 12, 2012

Dpelletier: sorry yes I like your plan....I miss understood yours. That would cut down on thermal bridgeing to as long as you only attach the studs to the floor and ceiling.

Zimmerman's Lumber, I can pm you the phone number if you would like they are in Shelby, Ohio.... they are amish or something along that line, I never asked... they are really nice and the best priced on just about everything for a pole building.

and to keep this post on topic for the starter of the post (a91sportyc). No stubs mean less thermal bridgeing. cold or heat.

but, Studs mean you can hang thinks like Pontiac Signs, Dry wall, "Nice" pictures....

rburke65 · Dec 12, 2012

Welcome to Garage Journal from a fellow Buckeye!

a91sportyc · Dec 13, 2012

HOLY SMOKES!!!

I asked for information and opinions and I got it! Thanks everyone for all the replies!
That was a lot of info, some I understood and some not so much which brings me to my next series of questions.

How would I go about finding the load rating on my trusses? I tried talking to the guy I bought the house off of and he failed to give me any information because he thinks I am ridiculous for trying to heat the garage. He actually asked me "What do you have that is so important that needs to be kept warm anyways?" Aside from my Harley, my detailing supplies, my Silverado LTZ, and 15+ computers at any given time, I answered the question with a simple "ME". He replied with "I don't understand you young people and wasting all your money" and that conversation was over. I'm sorry but I spend a lot of time in my garage and if I have the means to heat my garage, I'm going to.

So from what I understand, I am going to stud the walls and the vapor barrier should go between the inner wall and the insulation?

What do I use for the vapor barrier?

What thickness OSB should I use for the ceiling if I choose to go that route? 7/16? 3/8?

Sorry if these questions are just basic, I like to do things right and I research everything to the max before I do it so I don't have to do it twice!

Thank you all for taking the time to reply and thanks in advance for the future answers!

a91sportyc · Dec 13, 2012

Just a little bit more information...

Garage was built in 2000.
It is sitting on a 6" concrete slab. (unsure if there is a vapor barrier under it...probably not...)
Ceiling trusses ar 2 ft. OC.
Wood roof with shingles. (Pay no attention to the fungus growing on it...lol)
I have no idea what roof pitch it is.
I included some pictures also...

DPelletier · Dec 13, 2012

I can't believe anyone would want a non-heated garage unless it's for storage only or you live where it never gets below freezing....heck I even put A/C in one of my shops. Unless you can get some info from the owner builder, you might try the city or municipality assuming plans were registered for the permit and inspection process. If none of that works, you'd need to talk to a truss designer or structural engineer. One of the previous posters was right; it is imprudent to advise you to omit this step though if it was mine, I wouldn't worry about it.

Anyhow, use poly vapor barrier attached to the studs on the shop side using staples or acousti-seal. The poly is available at any builder's supply outlet. Use the proper tape to tape any joints and around penetrations.

I can't tell you about OSB as nobody uses that here. Interior walls and ceilings are 99% drywall here, though I have seen plywood a couple of times.

Dave

ForceFed70 · Dec 13, 2012

Those trusses look like they would hold the weight of a ceiling without issue. Go fer it!

Fun pain · Dec 14, 2012

I agree those trusses (4/12)are just fine for drywall, and cellulose. Use 5/8's dry wall or 1/2" osb will span 24" just fine.

you have ridge vent what about soffit or intake air

Do not agree with vapor barrier. But if you would like to try it?

Wrap the whole shop start with the ceiling then walls in 4mil, tape the seams.

Now this is great for the winter, you can heat the garage this year pretty easily really, with just the 4mill....

This is cheap maybe 100bucks in plastic and staples, and throw in a heater propane or what ever. It won't take much at all.

Come spring time any humidity that gets in won't get out without the doors open, or air handler. Your tools and cars won't like it, but if you have vapor barrier under the concrete it won't be too bad at all, and if it is bad just pull down the vapor barrier(platic) then insulate and dry wall

a91sportyc · Dec 14, 2012

I have no soffit or intake air

I guess the biggest decision is to vapor barrier or not...

Options for insulating...Need opinions

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